Military Flight Safety

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 30 Apr 2009 14:11

X posted from Indian Military Aviation Thread

IAF Sukhoi fighter jet crashes; navigator killed

This is the first crash of a Su-30MKI, which was inducted into the IAF in 1997. The IAF operates three squadrons (approximately 55 aircraft) of the jet, which is being manufactured under license in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

It was not immediately clear whether the aircraft that crashed was among those purchased in fly away condition or had been manufactured in India

More info on accident

The two-man crew ejected before the jet crashed. The pilot, Wing Commander S V Munje, survived but the navigator, Wing Commander P.S. Narah, succumbed to his injuries, the spokesperson added.

There were no reports of damage to property on the ground.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Apr 2009 14:17

These aircraft have been flown for a decade without a single serious accident. That in itself sets up a statistical possibility...

Sorry about the loss of life.

I hope they figure out and are able to set right what went wrong easily.

girish.r · Post by **girish.r** » 30 Apr 2009 14:19

Rahul M wrote:X-post. this thread has been comparatively quiet for the last few years.
here's hoping it stays so.

Wish this could have indeed been a quiet thread. Sorry for the life lost. Also this does not help the already depleting strength of our war birds. Hope the second pilot is safe with no fatal injury

I guess this one belongs to LIGHTENING sq.....

RIP Brave Soul......

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 30 Apr 2009 15:05

RIP.

One question to Guru's. I always see that after every accident some enquiry is being ordered.

What really happens next ? does the learnings of root cause analysis transpires in to a real CORRECTIVE & PREVENTIVE ACTIONS and implementation of changes in aircraft manitenance and safety protocols ?

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 30 Apr 2009 16:34

And the roster of crashes of the MKI begins. Bringing down a Multi-million $$ aircraft of the IAF.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 30 Apr 2009 16:56

girish.r wrote:Hope the second pilot is safe with no fatal injury

What do you mean by that?? Isn't the definition of injury itself mean that he isn't dead... plus, the papers say that he "safely ejected"...

RIP btw, but given that it has been over 10 years in service, the MKI has had an exemplary record. Its just the certainty of crash catching up - I doubt we'll find a single aircraft type that hasn't crashed during regular service.

Prabu wrote:One question to Guru's. I always see that after every accident some enquiry is being ordered.

What really happens next ? does the learnings of root cause analysis transpires in to a real CORRECTIVE & PREVENTIVE ACTIONS and implementation of changes in aircraft manitenance and safety protocols ?

The thing is Prabhu, you can do that well with a well-beaten horse - like the Mig-21s, we get wise to the aircraft's faults and tolerances after analyzing crashes and other defects.

With the Su-30, it is the first time it is crashing, so it is definitely new. If indeed there were any defects or safety issues, that will be found out and corrected. But given that we are the only operators of this type, there hasn't been any major information that we could rely on...

An accident was just waiting to happen. Its not "apshagun" or anything, but pure probabilty catching up with us. Its sad that the pilot died, but that is the cost we have to pay to defend our land.

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 30 Apr 2009 16:59

Prabu wrote:RIP.
One question to Guru's. I always see that after every accident some enquiry is being ordered.
What really happens next ? does the learnings of root cause analysis transpires in to a real CORRECTIVE & PREVENTIVE ACTIONS and implementation of changes in aircraft manitenance and safety protocols ?

And what is the reason for the doubt that it MIGHT not be happening.. IAF takes every single incidence on and off the ground very very seriously.. the typical Indian trait of CHALTA HAI attitude is NOT there with the IAF, IN and IA.. don't worry..

wig · Post by **wig** » 30 Apr 2009 20:51

Flying and expecially combat aviation has always been and will probably always be a high risk venture. we can only hope and strive that there are never any crashes.
having said that i can only hope and pray that the brave soul that has departed can rest in peace and may God Almighty grant the family members of the deceased the fortitude to bear with the mind numbing loss.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 Apr 2009 21:21

For all those asking questions on what happens etc.

Please do some reading on flight safetys issues on BR.

and stop speculating

if you do not know - good time not to say anything till you learn.

wait for a week before you go off tangent.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 May 2009 00:07

viveks wrote:And the roster of crashes of the MKI begins. Bringing down a Multi-million $$ aircraft of the IAF.

that the last thing you should say mate.

RIP.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 May 2009 02:49

^^ I second that. More than the cost of the aircraft, it is the value of the pilots life that matters. More aircraft can be built; but the life and the experience of the Late Wing Commander can never be got back.

R Arun · Post by **R Arun** » 01 May 2009 13:28

RIP

i don't understand how did the other pilot die,i mean he did eject,but it reminds me of the movie TOP GUN.

well even the F22 crashed,sadly there also the pilot was killed.

username changed to R Santhi.
Rahul.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 May 2009 19:07

R Arun wrote:RIP i don't understand how did the other pilot die,i mean he did eject,but it reminds me of the movie TOP GUN.
well even the F22 crashed,sadly there also the pilot was killed.

Just ejecting out of the aircraft does not ensure safety. There are a number of factors like speed, position, timing etc. And then there is the actual process of ejecting, the chute opening and the landing. Any of these factors can potentially cause injury or worse.
Any aircrash is sad, F-22 or MiG-21. More than the aircraft, its the pilots that are the biggest loss.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 May 2009 19:23

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 301612.htm

Within a few minutes of taking off, the pilots reported trouble in the aircraft and both ejected out of the cockpit, after directing the aircraft on to a vacant agricultural land.

If this news is accurate it means that:

1) Since it was "a few minutes after takeoff" - the possibility exists that the plane had not gained adequate altitude. It may have suffered a sudden loss of power

2) Since it was "guided" to a vacant spot after the trouble was reported it means that some controls were still active and some time was there in the judgement of the pilot - so catastrophic unexpected structural failure is unlikely

3) Assuming that there was loss of power - one might be looking at causes of sudden loss of power in 2 engines in a twin engine jet - possibly from some common source. Flock of birds?

4) Could possibly be none of these things - some wild control failure.

5) IF there was power loss and IF time was spent guiding the plane to a vacant spot it may have lost altitude and may have had a net downward velocity. That net downward velocity would have a negative bearing on the upward acceleration of the ejection seats.

If you recall in that famous Su 30 scraping the runway in the airshow - the plots bailed out after it scraped and was headed upwards - adding upward velocity to the eject seat. In this case the IAF pilots have been heroes (as usual) sacrificing personal safety in exchange for ground damage/deaths.

I just wonder if the Su 30 has an "inevitable" sequence of ejection of both pilots one after the other after the command is given? Who goes out first? Or can one go while the other remains?

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 01 May 2009 21:07

George J wrote:
Prasant wrote:This is what I meant by DDM's bullshit analyses.

This is their line of though: The WSO was a Mig-21 pilot, hence this is related to the crash, therefore the IAF is showing incompetence. Pathetic!
He is merely stating/quoting the facts. If DASI folks are meant to be qualified on the a/c they are evaluating then perhaps Wing Co (RIP) should not have been there (its like your Hindi Teacher grading your Math paper, sure he knows a lot of math but is qualified to grade your math paper?). He also goes on to quote why the Wing Co was there-pilot shortage.

Actually it is BS from HT DDM. DASI evaluates you on operational readiness . effectiveness and weapons delivery accuracy. it is also about evaluating the Squadron's effectiveness. Alleging that the IAF resorted to short cuts is BS. The DASI pilot who died was either an FCL or an FSL from TACDE . He is qualified enough alright. last thing we need is DDM from HT to say "wrong pilot in right aircraft". It is not required that only a type qualified pilot needs to be with a Squadron to inspect it. In such a case would the IAF ever have had enough MiG-25 qualified DASI staff to evaluate the MiG-25 Squadron in the past? yeah right

Also note - the DASI inspector in the rear seat is an observer . He is NOT flying the aircraft nor assist the pilot in any way in the flight or navigation. For all you know the aircraft would have crashed when carrying George Fernandes in the back. Would HT still go "Wrong Pilot in the Right aircraft" and imply that was the reason of the crash?

Also Rahul Singh is a friend of BRF (I know you may not be aware of all the details) and its an old unwritten rule that we try and be nice to our friends in the media who go above and beyond their call of duty.

BS is BS - isnt it?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 May 2009 21:09

Here are some details on the operation of the K-36 DM seat.
http://www.isam-india.org/essays/cme_recent.shtml

However this still does not answer shiv's question about the operation sequence.

George J · Post by **George J** » 01 May 2009 21:37

HariC wrote:Actually it is BS from HT DDM. DASI evaluates you on operational readiness . effectiveness and weapons delivery accuracy. it is also about evaluating the Squadron's effectiveness. Alleging that the IAF resorted to short cuts is BS. The DASI pilot who died was either an FCL or an FSL from TACDE . He is qualified enough alright. .......

You would be right except for the fact that Rahul Singh used quotes and prominently displayed the quoted portion. Hence he is implying that its NOT him saying it but rather a retired air marshal.

Also I find it ironic that you are resorting to conjecture by stating that Wing Co was an FCL.

ravit · Post by **ravit** » 01 May 2009 21:40

orbat guy is saying that a parachute failure case for the second pilot.

A Su-30 from the southwestern base of Pune made a long-range sorties to Rajasthan's Pokharan firing ranges, did its thing, and went down on its way back. One pilot ejected safely; the second's parachute did not open properly and he was killed.

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 May 2009 21:46

My condolences to the family of Wing Commander P.S. Narah . I do not wish to speculate ,however fwiw Iirc there have been cases in the past with 2 seater aircraft when only one of the crew has survived the crash .

If I remember correctly in one such incident involving the IN Sea Harrier operating from INS Hansa the younger trainee survived the crash while his instructor did not, it is said that the instructor insisted on the trainee to eject first .

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 01 May 2009 21:47

The more I re-read the article, the more it leaves me fuming.

Wing commander P.S. Nara, the pilot who was killed, was reportedly not qualified to fly a Sukhoi, an IAF official told Hindustan Times.
An IAF source said Nara was a competent MiG-21 flyer. While both pilots had ejected, wing commander S.V. Munje, the other pilot, survived the crash. Nara was serving in the IAF’s Directorate of Air Staff Inspection (DASI).

Nara was seated behind Munje, who was flying the twin-cockpit fighter aircraft. There are different functions to be carried out from each cockpit. It is presumed Nara was manning the jet’s weapons system. “Regardless of who flies the aircraft, all crew members have to be qualified on the aircraft they are flying,” said the source.

“DASI inspectors make assessments of fighter jets at the tactical and operational level to ascertain if they are capable of meeting war-time requirements,” said Air Marshal (retired) P.S. Ahluwalia. “Ideally, an inspector should be qualified on the type of aircraft he is assessing. But inspectors are sometimes co-opted due to the shortage of pilots.”

well, the retired Air Marshal said Ideally - he never said Mandatory. Rahul Singh co-opts an anonymouse "IAF Official". Now without knowing any other parameters of the flight - what the mission task was, what exactly was Nara trying to evaluate the other pilot on, using a sensionalist headline "Wrong Pilot in Right Aircraft" is plain wrong and is right up there in DDM qualification criteria. Unless they prove that Nara was actually flying the aircraft, no amount of justification will suffice for this.

b]Regardless of who flies the aircraft, all crew members have to be qualified on the aircraft they are flying[/b]

Really? What about the USAF pilots who got joyrides in our MKis? or George Fernandes? or President Kalam? or that Civlian dude from Nat Geo? or the various Air Commodores or Air Marshals who take an occasional familiarity rides in these aircraft? What exactly is "qualified"? Qualifed to fly it? Qualified to land it? if Navigators who were posted as WSO to the MKIs are qualified to fly in it - why isnt a MiG-21 jock who is TACDE qualified and is in DASI not?

Yeah I understand Rahul Singh is merely quoting some IAF friend of his - but arent these the questions that he should be asking before trying to sensationalise the story?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 May 2009 22:03

ravit wrote:orbat guy is saying that a parachute failure case for the second pilot.

A Su-30 from the southwestern base of Pune made a long-range sorties to Rajasthan's Pokharan firing ranges, did its thing, and went down on its way back. One pilot ejected safely; the second's parachute did not open properly and he was killed.

even though my wild stone throw hit the mark, it gives me no satisfaction.

incidentally, how reliable are the parachutes in general ? any failure rates available in public ?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 May 2009 22:15

that day i was in pune and was watching the SU 30's take off early morning .... did i see the ill fated plane???? then while catching the flight to delhi in afternoon, there were flight delays on account of some 'air force excercises' !!

R Arun · Post by **R Arun** » 01 May 2009 22:22

shameekg wrote: Just ejecting out of the aircraft does not ensure safety. There are a number of factors like speed, position, timing etc. And then there is the actual process of ejecting, the chute opening and the landing. Any of these factors can potentially cause injury or worse.
Any aircrash is sad, F-22 or MiG-21. More than the aircraft, its the pilots that are the biggest loss.

true,well i think its probably the parachute ,i mean the pilots had ejected and lets say the plane dropped like a stone besides them ,then the turbulance could have cause the parachute to flip or entangle and at that low altitude no chance for opening the backup parachute.anyway just my speculation.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 May 2009 22:29

good posts haric.. makes me think and support the ddm bs. he is sensationalizing the story, as anyone could imagine in desh that people's life come cheap, and not the craft.

craft is always perfect!.. its defence, hence if you say it, you 'll have to be killed.

but, its too early to talk about without knowing the details of the crash.. and the catch 22 is if you don't ask, nobody cares to tell either.

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 May 2009 23:03

--deleted-- (apologies for the misunderstanding I mistook the article as HariC's post).
I guess I should stop browsing BRf at work--

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 May 2009 23:10

naveen, haric is not saying anything of the kind.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 May 2009 23:15

negi, i could'nt read that from haric post. could you explain it better, with quotes of exact texts. thanks.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2009 00:24

manjgu wrote:that day i was in pune and was watching the SU 30's take off early morning .... did i see the ill fated plane???? then while catching the flight to delhi in afternoon, there were flight delays on account of some 'air force excercises' !!

Sorry, OT:

Hello manjgu, could you please mail to [email protected] from your mail ID?
Been a long time since last contact and i dont have your current ID.

skher · Post by **skher** » 02 May 2009 00:26

shameekg wrote: Just ejecting out of the aircraft does not ensure safety. There are a number of factors like speed, position, timing etc. And then there is the actual process of ejecting, the chute opening and the landing. Any of these factors can potentially cause injury or worse.
Any aircrash is sad, F-22 or MiG-21. More than the aircraft, its the pilots that are the biggest loss.
R Santhi wrote:RIP i don't understand how did the other pilot die,i mean he did eject,but it reminds me of the movie TOP GUN.
well even the F22 crashed,sadly there also the pilot was killed.

Top Gun Goose's death

Condolences.

We should let go only after receiving satisfactory answers about what went wrong.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 02 May 2009 04:54

Wg Cdr Pushpendar Singh Nara was a topper in his FCL course at TACDE. He was also awarded the Vayu Sena Medal this January. He was to have received it on October 8, 2009. That is not to be now

http://www.zeenews.com/news528344.html

IAF Su-30 MKI Wing Commander's body cremated

Jhajjar (Haryana), May 01: The last rites of Wing Commander Pushpender Singh Nara, who died in a Su-30 MKI fighter jet crash, was performed today with full state honours at his native village Madana Khurd in the district.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/200905 ... ana.htm#10

Wreaths were laid on his mortal remains by Air Vice-Marshal Anil Chawla on behalf of Chief of the Air staff. Paying tribute to the departed soul Chawla said with the untimely death of Nara, the Air Force had lost a talented pilot and a trainer. Nara was a very talented pilot trainer and was posted in Delhi.

He trained pilots in various parts of the country, Chawla said, adding that on the tragic day, he was returning from Pokhran field firing range after imparting training to a pilot when the aircraft met with an accident.

He is survived by his parents, wife and two daughters.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2009 07:06

ravit wrote:orbat guy is saying that a parachute failure case for the second pilot.

A Su-30 from the southwestern base of Pune made a long-range sorties to Rajasthan's Pokharan firing ranges, did its thing, and went down on its way back. One pilot ejected safely; the second's parachute did not open properly and he was killed.

Let me explain what I think I know know. A "zero-zero" ejection seat works at both zero altitude and zero speed - which means that the seat is boosted up to an altitude that allows the parachute to billow and fill with air to ensure a safe landing. All parachutes need a certain amount of free-fall descent before the parachute fills and becomes effective.

But if the plane is at near zero altitude and has a net downward velocity (ie is descending rapidly) - the altitude may be zero - but the downward acceleration negates part of the upward acceleration of the ejection seat. So the situation s not 0 altitude,0speed (zero-zero) but 0 altitude, -X (minus X downward acceleration)

This means that the situation is less than optimal for ejection even in a 0-0 seat and even if the ejection is technically safe the pilot can be injured because he hits the ground in the free fall phase before the parachute can billow and fill with air to slow descent.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 May 2009 09:01

Even if Rahul Singh was quoting GOD he should had the decency to wait till the embers from the funeral fire had down.

I share the anger HariC feels

Chee

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 May 2009 09:02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyulka_AL-31
The Mean Time Between Overhaul (MTBO) for the AL-31F is given at 1000 hours with a full-life span of 3000 hours.

what is full-life span here means? and where do our 10 year olds stand on the hours?

George J · Post by **George J** » 02 May 2009 09:05

Jagan wrote:Wg Cdr Pushpendar Singh Nara was a topper in his FCL course at TACDE.

Well that only makes his loss even worse.

HariC:
Ok.

Shiv:
There is a lot of technical parameters listed for the K-36DM Series 2 (original Su-27 seat, donno what series they have on the MKI) in the Fomin book, but it does no say anything about tandem ejection, I have guessing that each pilot has to individually punch out, but the canopy ejects as soon as the first pilots starts the sequence.

Although this MKI video shows staggered ejection which could be pure timing or a sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh-kuztsE1s

They show it twice the second time in slow mo.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2009 09:18

George - I suspect without proof that it may be a sequence that occurs automatically because even if one punches out the canopy goes first, making it impossible for the other to remain sitting in there.

Just a guess - will try and find out.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2009 09:21

SaiK wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyulka_AL-31
The Mean Time Between Overhaul (MTBO) for the AL-31F is given at 1000 hours with a full-life span of 3000 hours.
what is full-life span here means? and where do our 10 year olds stand on the hours?

SaiK - in India when you buy a car - the engine and chassis number are linked and the same two can be seen linked whether the car is 2 years old or 12 years old.

This is not true for aircraft. (perhaps because Indian RTOs are not in charge of aircraft). You can change the engine and the local RTO has no power to object.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 02 May 2009 15:16

Prasant wrote:This is what I meant by DDM's bullshit analyses.

This is their line of though: The WSO was a Mig-21 pilot, hence this is related to the crash, therefore the IAF is showing incompetence. Pathetic!

HariC wrote:
George J wrote:
He is merely stating/quoting the facts. If DASI folks are meant to be qualified on the a/c they are evaluating then perhaps Wing Co (RIP) should not have been there (its like your Hindi Teacher grading your Math paper, sure he knows a lot of math but is qualified to grade your math paper?). He also goes on to quote why the Wing Co was there-pilot shortage.

Actually it is BS from HT DDM. DASI evaluates you on operational readiness . effectiveness and weapons delivery accuracy. it is also about evaluating the Squadron's effectiveness. Alleging that the IAF resorted to short cuts is BS. The DASI pilot who died was either an FCL or an FSL from TACDE . He is qualified enough alright. last thing we need is DDM from HT to say "wrong pilot in right aircraft". It is not required that only a type qualified pilot needs to be with a Squadron to inspect it. In such a case would the IAF ever have had enough MiG-25 qualified DASI staff to evaluate the MiG-25 Squadron in the past? yeah right

Also note - the DASI inspector in the rear seat is an observer . He is NOT flying the aircraft nor assist the pilot in any way in the flight or navigation. For all you know the aircraft would have crashed when carrying George Fernandes in the back. Would HT still go "Wrong Pilot in the Right aircraft" and imply that was the reason of the crash?

Also Rahul Singh is a friend of BRF (I know you may not be aware of all the details) and its an old unwritten rule that we try and be nice to our friends in the media who go above and beyond their call of duty.
BS is BS - isnt it?

This is what I had to say. Nothing more to add. I am not aware of who a friend of BR is, but friend or foe, errors have to be called out.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 02 May 2009 19:13

shiv wrote:George - I suspect without proof that it may be a sequence that occurs automatically because even if one punches out the canopy goes first, making it impossible for the other to remain sitting in there.

Just a guess - will try and find out.

http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/russia.htm

This site has some details on the K-36 operation. In the MiG-AT the sequence is the student is ejected first and then the instructor within 0.9 seconds. I also remember reading the sequence can be programmed into the computer and one person can eject both. Will try to find the article on that.

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 May 2009 20:28

The K36 D 3.5A afaik is equipped with inter-seat sequencing system i.e. either of the crew members can initiate the ejection sequence with both pilot and WSO having capability to eject each other .

The vid posted by GJ garu shows the WSO/navigator being ejected first followed by the pilot.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 May 2009 22:14

The appreciation of hard work and risk involved in defending Indian airspace is well appreciated by those who have close links with the IAF (or pilots in IN/IA) family. I have seen insensitive (and often jealous) views from organizations that do not fly military missions. Civilian appreciation of the issues, organizing principles and and risk is much poorer, thanks to apathy, Hollywood films and cartoons. It is especially true for a force where the whole organization is a base to allow pilots to flight, and where only select officers go to combat.

When an aircraft rolls off the atrmac, the aircrew (not just pilot, but the air crew) get a salute form the ground crew, lest it be the last flight and it may be the last military salute received by the flight crew.

My "abhinandan" and "Namastey" to Wing Commander Pushpender Singh Nara for a lifetime of dedicated service to IAF and India.

May "Ishwar" give strength and good life to the bereaved family.

Jai Hind.

The GoI has really capitulated to psudo-secularist in the last 30 years, else teh following would be a true (alas it is not, just a poetic fantasy in my country India):

"Shaeedon Ki Mazar-oin Pey Lagay-gain Har Baras May-lay |
Watan pay marnay walo kay yahi baaki nishan ho ga||"

Veer Wing Commander Pushpender Singh Nar ki Jai Ho !