Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[Arjun]

Hindu weaknesses are more fundamental than this high minded debate of exclusivity or inclusivity. Hindu weaknesses can be summed up in one word......CORRUPTION. Hindu corruption has the following children. 1) Propensity to devise ingenious ways to be internally devisive, whether it be caste, sub caste, varna, jati.......vaati, raati, kaati.....2) Propensity among Hindu individuals to viscerally dislike other Hindus, 3) Propensity of Hindu individuals to blind ourselves with envy to the exclusion of all else including the most basic common sense, 4) Complete lack of courage, 5) Propensity to be in denial, 6) Propensity to make excuses, 7) Propensity to cover our basically infantile behaviour with high minded, useless, irrelevent and endless debates on nonsensical issues, Propensity to cover our weaknesses and inexplicable behaviour by characterizing them as "Chanakyan" 9) racism as a result of a severe inferiority complex............. I think you get my drift........

Hmm...do get your drift. What about the propensity for focusing on endless discourses on Hindu weaknesses without showing the leadership quality for coming out with solutions that address our 'clear and present' threats?

Before you get me wrong -I like your subsequent posts that take a somewhat more constructive approach.

[raji]

Hindu weaknesses............

Hmm...do get your drift. What about the propensity for focusing on endless discourses on Hindu weaknesses without showing the leadership quality for coming out with solutions that address our 'clear and present' threats?

Before you get me wrong -I like your subsequent posts that take a somewhat more constructive approach.

I had to state the problem clearly before stating the solution. The problem here has been, when I start coming out with solutions, no one wants to discuss the pros and cons of those solutions. People come up with "classic Hindu" responses such as US has corruption too....therefore, we are not less moral. Classic definition of head in the sand denial. What they dont understand is.....that US is not in existential danger, while we are..........just becuase US can afford certain luxuries (and it is ludicrous to suggest, even for the most virulant West baiters, that corruption is the US can even remotely be discussed as existing at the same level as India), but for the sake of argument, even if it does, maybe it can afford certain inefficiencies, while we cannot........its like a rich man can make many mistakes, because his wealth allows him to, a poor man cannot........it may be unfair ( i dont think it is), but everyone has to play the cards they are dealt with......since they do it for their own survival.........there is no big daddy out there who will take care of you.......

[Arjun]

4. Where a religion does not address certain issues, the answer is not to jettison it, but to continue to take all the positive aspects of it and then fill in the blanks yourself, as individuals or in an organized way. This can be done in two ways......1) Reforming the religion itself, to insert in the religion, for example, the missing sanctions against corruption, that you allude to and/or 2) Just come up with civil, secular sanctions, but with the aim of protecting the Hindus from persecution.......you dont necessarily have to have religious sanction to protect a certain group of people and their culture (whether self identified or identified as such by others).......you just need to have the will and most importantly SURVIVAL INSTINCT

Raju, agree with the point you make in your last post - for elimination of jatis and castes. But how do you correlate Corruption to our survival as a civilization ? Granted, it is a problem, but would you prioritize it as a key impediment to our survival and expansionary capabilities as a civilization?

[raji]

Shiv,

PLease note how I have defined the word, corruption.

"
1) Propensity to devise ingenious ways to be internally devisive, whether it be caste, sub caste, varna, jati.......vaati, raati, kaati.....2) Propensity among Hindu individuals to viscerally dislike other Hindus, 3) Propensity of Hindu individuals to blind ourselves with envy to the exclusion of all else including the most basic common sense, 4) Complete lack of courage, 5) Propensity to be in denial, 6) Propensity to make excuses, 7) Propensity to cover our basically infantile behaviour with high minded, useless, irrelevent and endless debates on nonsensical issues, Propensity to cover our weaknesses and inexplicable behaviour by characterizing them as "Chanakyan" 9) racism as a result of a severe inferiority complex.
"

Nowhere have I used the word bribery. Bribery and corruption have come to mean the same in our daily vernacular, but corruption is actually a deeper, fundamental maliase as I have defined above, and bribery is just one of the several consequence of the consequence of the consequence of corruption (as I have defined it)

[raji]

4. Where a religion does not address certain issues, the answer is not to jettison it, but to continue to take all the positive aspects of it and then fill in the blanks yourself, as individuals or in an organized way. This can be done in two ways......1) Reforming the religion itself, to insert in the religion, for example, the missing sanctions against corruption, that you allude to and/or 2) Just come up with civil, secular sanctions, but with the aim of protecting the Hindus from persecution.......you dont necessarily have to have religious sanction to protect a certain group of people and their culture (whether self identified or identified as such by others).......you just need to have the will and most importantly SURVIVAL INSTINCT

Raju, agree with the point you make in your last post - for elimination of jatis and castes. But how do you correlate Corruption to our survival as a civilization ? Granted, it is a problem, but would you prioritize it as a key impediment to our survival and expansionary capabilities as a civilization?

Great question. Again, please look at the previous post where I mention how I define the word corruption. So if corruption means we dont like each other, we envy each other, we dont have the courage to stand up for ourselves as a group, and we are pastmasters at finding ways to divide ourselves etc....then it is obvious that these traits are the exact traits which are what I would term as "anti organization" or "anti coming together" traits. If we dont like each other and envy each other and are divisive amongs ourselves, isnt it obvious, we cannot organize our society in a cohesive way. We will stay 1 billion islands rather than one strong unit of a billion.......Since the caveman days, humans learned to organize and come together, as a means of survival. Organizing in a group is a most primal survival instinct. If we cannot do that we cant survive, leave aside being civilized or expand......

[Arjun]

Historical continuom.

Since the first Islamic invasion into Sindh by Caliph Umar's forces in 644 AD, the numbers, political strength, military strength (I include Pak and BD in India) and cohesiveness of Muslims have increased in India. If you graph it, it has increased almost in a straight line. Very few historical trends if graphed, have a straighter line and those that do relate to those peoples or tribes that have ultimately become extinct(culturally), such as the Native American tribes.

At the same time, the graph of the Hindus have declined in almost an converse straight line. I say almost because there have been some isolated victories by Hindus such as the BanglaDesh war, Maratha emergence during Shivaji and some of his successors, Ranjit Singh's victories etc.

With each advance made by muslims in India, of either numbers, political strength, military strength etc, their further advances have accelerated and the Hindu decline has been accelerated. Their internal political strength and the existence of Pak and BD with the strategic depth they have in the form of the entire Islamic world, and in turn the entire clout of the Islamic world, prevents the Hindus from asserting themselves within India, even those few Hindu groups and organizations who dare to even try.

While everyone seems to be rejoicing in the civil war going on in Pak, it is quite clear that what is happening there is another consolidation of the extreme extremism and the defeat of what in Islamic context passes for some mild moderation. This consolidation in favor of the extreme is just another staging event for another major onslaught on India by expansionist, extremist and imperialist Islam, which started in 644 AD and has continued unabated since. The onslaught this time will take the form, not of a conventional war, such as waged by Gauri or Gaznavi, but a guerilla war of attrition on several fronts (Nepal, Sri Lanka, BD, Assam, NE, JK), gradually bleeding the already suicidal Hindus whose actions will further exacerbate their death. This onslaught this time will make J&K for the last 2 decades as a picnic in the park.

Any effective counter to this onslaught will be severely curtailed by 1) Hindus own weakness and lack of foresight and historical perspective, 2) The clout of the domestic muslims, 3) Pak and BD, and 4) The pressure exerted by the entire muslim world directly on India and indirectly through the West, who will be pressured to pressure India in exchange for keeping Islamic attacks away from Western homelands.

This is a great post. The biggest reason Hindus are not coalescing is because they simply don't perceive the strength of the geopolitical threats to the country and to the pluralist way of life. What is needed is more coverage for articles in the media that spell out why Hindus are likely to become extinct or powerless within X number of generations. Hopefully that will awaken the survival instinct that is required at this point.

[svinayak]

1) Propensity to devise ingenious ways to be internally devisive, whether it be caste, sub caste, varna, jati.......vaati, raati, kaati.....2) Propensity among Hindu individuals to viscerally dislike other Hindus, 3) Propensity of Hindu individuals to blind ourselves with envy to the exclusion of all else including the most basic common sense, 4) Complete lack of courage, 5) Propensity to be in denial, 6) Propensity to make excuses, 7) Propensity to cover our basically infantile behaviour with high minded, useless, irrelevent and endless debates on nonsensical issues, Propensity to cover our weaknesses and inexplicable behaviour by characterizing them as "Chanakyan" 9) racism as a result of a severe inferiority complex.

Hindus have a major problem with our narration about our society and source of information.
Indians dont control their own narration about the world and about other people and other cultures. Indian education is the cause of most of the problems stated above. Educated Indians show those behaviors.

[raji]

1) Propensity to devise ingenious ways to be internally devisive, whether it be caste, sub caste, varna, jati.......vaati, raati, kaati.....2) Propensity among Hindu individuals to viscerally dislike other Hindus, 3) Propensity of Hindu individuals to blind ourselves with envy to the exclusion of all else including the most basic common sense, 4) Complete lack of courage, 5) Propensity to be in denial, 6) Propensity to make excuses, 7) Propensity to cover our basically infantile behaviour with high minded, useless, irrelevent and endless debates on nonsensical issues, Propensity to cover our weaknesses and inexplicable behaviour by characterizing them as "Chanakyan" 9) racism as a result of a severe inferiority complex.

Hindus have a major problem with our narration about our society and source of information.
Indians dont control their own narration about the world and about other people and other cultures. Indian education is the cause of most of the problems stated above. Educated Indians show those behaviors.

Please explain in detail how in general(as opposed to isolated examples or exceptions) the "uneducated" Indians have been better ?

[svinayak]

Please explain in detail how in general(as opposed to isolated examples or exceptions) the "uneducated" Indians have been better ?

Who are in your opinion "uneducated" Indians

[raji]

In todays India, there is no educated Indian. We are all "uneducated". We just are "uneducated" in different ways. But the end result is that we are all uneducated.

Why do I say so ?

In one of my previous posts, I had mentioned the caveman. Even he knew to organize into cohesive groups for survival. He had the basic survival instincts. Hindus today, dont. So, while we may have the greatest scientists, the greatest engineers, nobel prize winning economists, western decorated English authors......if we cant organize ourselves and are corrupt.......we are still uneducated........more so than even the caveman.......

It is inconceivable that an educated person will divide people by their station at birth, and find other ways to be divisive.
It is inconceivable that an educated person will be so blinded by envy that he gives up his common sense
It is inconceivable that an educated person will be totally devoid of courage

And on and on......

That is the reason, you find in todays India........people only value money......no one has time to appreciate art, music, culture........(other than infantile, fantasy movies.....which are akin to video games that teenagers play). There is very little vibrancy in literature or poetry in Indian languages from north to south........very little experimentation in art......everyone worships money........only an undeducated person can be so one dimensional and gluttonous.....

And worst of all.........todays Indian has no voluntary self restraint......he will keep on acting a certain way, as long as he gets away with it.......he will keep on cheating until stopped, keep on being corrupt to the nth degree until checked.....there is no inner voice telling him, enough is enough.........there is no depths that he will not sink to, if he is left unchecked......only an uneducated person has no conscience......

[svinayak]

In todays India, there is no educated Indian. We are all "uneducated". We just are "uneducated" in different ways. But the end result is that we are all uneducated.

That is the reason, you find in todays India........people only value money......no one has time to appreciate art, music, culture........(other than infantile, fantasy movies.....which are akin to video games that teenagers play). There is very little vibrancy in literature or poetry in Indian languages from north to south........very little experimentation in art......everyone worships money........only an undeducated person can be so one dimensional and gluttonous.....

I have said it many times our education system is an indoctrination system. It is taking away our civilization and our history and social tradition away from us.
TO answer your question - "uneducated" Indian elite who are the ruling class have lost their way. They have no sense of geopolitics and are creating vacuum in the political power.

[brihaspati]

raji-ji,
would you consider exploring the possibility of a core group, who are conscious of all the shortcomings of "Indians" as you list out, but who can possibly think and live to provide an alternative around which increasing circles of similar minded "Indians" can form and crystallize?

[surinder]

I had mentioned the caveman. Even he knew to organize into cohesive groups for survival. He had the basic survival instincts. Hindus today, dont. So, while we may have the greatest scientists, the greatest engineers, nobel prize winning economists, western decorated English authors......if we cant organize ourselves and are corrupt.......we are still uneducated........more so than even the caveman.......

I have to agree to this one very strongly. While individual Indians will show excellence, their collective ability to cohesively stand together is minimal. This is the biggest downfall of Indians. Any activity that involves group cohesion, sparks doom for India. Such activities include civic, political, & security issues. In fact, more we excell, less we seem to care about cohesiveness. Swami Vivekananda used to give the example of England, which although was a small population was united with a unity of thought that gave it great power over others.

[Abhi_G]

^^
Surinder, uniting India is a difficult proposition and would always be an ever continuous process. Bharat is unique in that way in human history. It is very easy to see the fractures and get heated up and loose all hope. The mind and the body gets tired up in this process and vision is clouded. The effective way is not to loose hope but be patient. I agree that this may seem to be totally unnecessary "Gnan" but each of us who has some interest in seeing a cohesive Bharatvarsh has to have some amount of conviction and patience in ourselves.....i.e., it is doable in spite of the seemingly insurmountable hurdles. Have a heart fellow Rakshak ! Just my humble opinion.

[raji]

raji-ji,
would you consider exploring the possibility of a core group, who are conscious of all the shortcomings of "Indians" as you list out, but who can possibly think and live to provide an alternative around which increasing circles of similar minded "Indians" can form and crystallize?

Yes, I am hoping to form a core group within BRF first, and then expand the core group to include people from all over the world and different walks of life, who are dedicated to the cause of 1) Coming up with a strategic vision for India's future in context of what the world will look like in the future........in other words, how we would like to see ourselves going forward (note that preservation and defence of Hindus and our culture is inherent in all of this, you cant have a future if you dont survive), 2) Assess honestly where Hindus stand right now, politically, socially, economically and militarily, vis-a-vis the world and vis-a-vis our own vision of the future, 3) Coming up with a roadmap of how we go from where we are right now to what our strategic vision is for the future, as defined in number 1 above, 4) Most importantly, start executing the roadmap, tactically, 5) Monitor progress and adjust course and 6) Have a living, breathing strategic vision and action plan, so you constantly monitor changes in the world and locally and adjust the vision and roadmap accordingly......otherwise you are creating just another orthodoxy.......a plan created in 2010 still being held as Koran(I meant to say bible, but Koran seems deliciously more appropriate) in 2050

You wanna volunteer to be the convenor or coordinator ?

[raji]

so, having criticized, quite severely, the Hindus, I would now like to explore the other side. If the Hindus are so bad, as I say they are, why are they and their culture worth preserving ? What is it about them that deserve to be perpetuated ? What are the positive and uniques aspects of our culture and how are they so compelling that someone like me, knowing all our flaws and more importantly the major obstacles we face in overcoming them, still wants to attempt to make at least a small effort to overcome these monstrous challenges ?

I would like input from everybody on this. Let this exercise not become a jingoistic exaltation of all things Hindus, but a thoughtful dialogue of what makes us and our existence as Hindus worthwhile and how our positives or at least some of them are unique and different from the rest of the world. We can start with our positives from the past (our ancient culture), but let us focus on today.......what in our culture of today is worth preserving. ALSO, let us mention what Hindus are uniquely capable of envisioning and accomplishing in the FUTURE, for themselves and the world, which would be our unique gift to mankind. More than our past and our present, it is our vision for the future which will make us worth preserving.

Let me attempt to make a humble start.

1. We are a people, who ordinarily, when not blinded by extreme emotions such as envy, possess tremendous common sense and basic intelligence. Even the least fortunate amongst us by and large possesses these qualities. If our people had better knowledge and grasp of the global and geostrategic affairs, their common sense will compel them to act differently than they do right now........our masses behaved and conducted themselves much better during the independence movement (not perfectly), because they acutely felt that they had to get rid of the British. So, if they feel the geostategic threats from Islam and other forces in their bones, they would act much better.....

2. We are a people, even today, who have the capacity to bear enormous hardships, more than any other people. This statement is self evident and need not be explained any further. A daily labourer still is able to maintain some spirit and smile at the end of a gruelling day with little rewards.

3. We are a people of faith. Despite being betrayed centuries after centuries by people who we have placed our faith in, we still want to trust........we still have this deep desire to put our faith in someone........this is a tremendous quality if we can channel it correctly.........

4. It is a cliche, but if we define violence in a narrow sense of physical killings, beheadings etc, we are the least violent people in relative terms in the world. That is not to say that we are not pastmasters at murdering human spirit.....

5. We are a genuinely inclusive people and tolerant.......more so than other people...although it is changing


Some of the above qualities are not unique in the sense that they absolutely dont exist elsewhere, but we possess these in far greater degree than others and degree matters........

[svinayak]

raji-ji,
would you consider exploring the possibility of a core group, who are conscious of all the shortcomings of "Indians" as you list out, but who can possibly think and live to provide an alternative around which increasing circles of similar minded "Indians" can form and crystallize?

Yes, I am hoping to form a core group within BRF first, and then expand the core group to include people from all over the world and different walks of life, who are dedicated to the cause of 1) Coming up with a strategic vision for India's future in context of what the world will look like in the future........in other words, how we would like to see ourselves going forward (note that preservation and defence of Hindus and our culture is inherent in all of this, you cant have a future if you dont survive), 2) Assess honestly where Hindus stand right now, politically, socially, economically and militarily, vis-a-vis the world and vis-a-vis our own vision of the future, 3) Coming up with a roadmap of how we go from where we are right now to what our strategic vision is for the future, as defined in number 1 above, 4) Most importantly, start executing the roadmap, tactically, 5) Monitor progress and adjust course and 6) Have a living, breathing strategic vision and action plan, so you constantly monitor changes in the world and locally and adjust the vision and roadmap accordingly......otherwise you are creating just another orthodoxy.......a plan created in 2010 still being held as Koran(I meant to say bible, but Koran seems deliciously more appropriate) in 2050

You wanna volunteer to be the convenor or coordinator ?

What is your email ID

[ramana]

Raji, Create a google or yahoo group.

ramana

[brihaspati]

raji-ji,
maybe we can worry about coordinators a little bit later? I am putting my email here : dikgajone at gmail dot com. Those who are interested can also do the same and get in touch with each other first. As Ramanaji suggested, we can then think of maybe starting a web-based group first. Forming a think-tank devoted to the cause could be a possibility - something along the lines that Kaushalji is doing in history. Let me know what you think of this.

[raji]

my email is rajintl at cox dot net

[surinder]

I have a few questions, most likely Brihaspati might know, but if others do too, please feel free to post.

Before 1947, it seems the British carried out elections in India. In these elections supposedly Congress contested the polls along with Muslims League. When were these elections started? Did JLN contest elections? Was there a Prime Minister at the center kind of position also? Did JLN have that position? He seemed to be making international trips even before 1947 and carrying on a foreign policy.

Disclaimaer: There are multiple threads with similar ideas (mostly manned by Brihaspati) I hope I am in the right one.

[RamaY]

^^^ Surinder-ji

"The Shadow of the Great Game: The Untold Story of India's Partition" by Narendra Singh Sarila is a good source.

Yes. Yes. and Yes to your questions.

[brihaspati]

Surinderji,
you can use my email address as given in this page if you want to ask me in particular. Otherwise, probably on this forum, there are many more knowledgeable people who may have superb expertise on particular areas. So if you post in general, it will draw a wide response. By the way, over email, I would be interested in asking certain things of you in the way of enlightenment for myself - if my hunch is correct! Pattavi Sitaramaiah's work is a bit of a hagiography but gives the essential formal historical details. If you can access Bengali, then please try and read Amalesh Tripathy's work on INC in the "Freedom struggle of India", which is a bit more balanced.

[RamaY]

^^^ Brihaspati-ji

Now you got me curious. Is my understanding inaccurate/incomplete?

[ramana]

Before 1947, it seems the British carried out elections in India. In these elections supposedly Congress contested the polls along with Muslims League. When were these elections started? Did JLN contest elections? Was there a Prime Minister at the center kind of position also? Did JLN have that position? He seemed to be making international trips even before 1947 and carrying on a foreign policy.

Yes in 1937 there was INC govt that came to power. JLN was head of that govt. It resigned when the GG declared India to be in WWII without consulting them.

As for his FP read the 1937 Foreign Affairs article on what the FP of an independent India would look like.

[Johann]

I have a few questions, most likely Brihaspati might know, but if others do too, please feel free to post.

Before 1947, it seems the British carried out elections in India. In these elections supposedly Congress contested the polls along with Muslims League. When were these elections started? Did JLN contest elections? Was there a Prime Minister at the center kind of position also? Did JLN have that position? He seemed to be making international trips even before 1947 and carrying on a foreign policy.

Disclaimaer: There are multiple threads with similar ideas (mostly manned by Brihaspati) I hope I am in the right one.

Surinder,

The Govt of India Act 1935 established state legislative assemblies for the 11 provinces directly ruled by the colonial GoI ie not the princely states. Bombay, Madras, Orissa, Bihar, Bengal, Assam, Central Provinces, United Provinces, Sindh, Baluchistan & NWFP.

Elections to form provincial (or in today's terms) state governments were conducted in 1937, and they ended up forming the government in 6 provinces, and leading coalitions in 2. Punjab and Bengal went to regional parties. The Congress ministries resigned in 1939 when the Viceroy declared war on Germany without consultation.

The elections in 1945-46 were conducted on the same basis as the 1937 elections. The Congress did well again, but the Muslim League had also done much better than 1937

The Cabinet Mission Plan led to the creation of a Viceroy's Executive Council at the centre, which was headed by Nehru. This broke down because of Jinnah's refusal to cooperate, and Wavell invited the INC to form an interim government in September 1946, and the Muslim League decided to join in. The cabinet looked like this;

External Affairs and Commonwealth Relations - Jawaharlal Nehru
Defence - Baldev Singh
Home - Vallahbhai Patel
Finance - Liaquat Ali Khan [Muslim League]
Posts and Air - Abdur Rab Nishtar [Muslim League]
Food and Agriculture - Rajendra Parsad
Labor - Ragjivan Ram
Transport and Railways - M.Asaf Ali
Industries and Supplies - John Matthai
Education and Arts - C. Rajgopalacharia
Works, Mines and Power - C.H. Babha
Commerce - I.I. Chundrigar [Muslim League]
Law - Jogindar Nath Mandal [Muslim League]
Health - Ghazanfar Ali Khan [Muslim League]

[Airavat]

The Cabinet Mission Plan led to the creation of a Viceroy's Executive Council at the centre, which was headed by Nehru. This broke down because of Jinnah's refusal to cooperate, and Wavell invited the INC to form an interim government in September 1946, and the Muslim League decided to join in.

This is not the complete story. The two most significant elements of the Cabinet Mission Plan were the Constituent Assembly, which would draw up the constitution of India, and the infamous "grouping scheme" where provinces in the northwest and northeast were compulsorily grouped together into Sections. And worse these Sections were given the right to draw up their own constitutions, and the right to secede from the center after 10 years.The latter had the potential of creating Pakistan through the backdoor and Jinnah was initially delighted by this provision.

However the INC gave a conditional approval of the Cabinet Mission Plan with their own interpretation of the grouping scheme:

"......the (Congress Working) Committee read paragraph 15 to mean that, in the first instance, the respective Provinces will make their choice whether or not to belong to the Section in which they are placed. Thus the Constituent Assembly must be considered as a sovereign body with final authority for the purpose of drawing up a Constitution and give effect to it."

Basically the INC aim was to enter the government and gain control of India's administration, and second to attract to their side those Muslim politicians in the two sections who were not from the Muslim League, and hence prevent the creation of Pakistan. This upset Jinnah who now repudiated the Cabinet Mission Plan. It also upset Wavell who wrote in a memorandum:

"To give control of all India to a government in which Muslims refused to take part would be very dangerous."

And as if on cue Jinnah launched his Direct Action Day where the Muslim League government in Bengal engineered a pogrom of Hindus and Sikhs in Calcutta. The British administration did nothing to prevent the organised killings, and after the bloodshed Wavell took no action against the Muslim League government in Bengal!

Instead when the executive council of the Interim Government was sworn in on 2 September 1946, Wavell worked on dhimmis like Gandhi and Nehru, persuading them to invite the Muslim League into the government in the interests of communal peace and harmony. But the INC insisted that Jinnah had to first enter the Constituent Assembly and call off their 'direct action' campaign. After repeated entreaties from Wavell Nehru finally gave in on October 2, and the Muslim League members were invited by Wavell to join the Interim Government. Despite joining the government the Muslim League engineered riots in Noakhali and Tripura in November, while their finance minister Liaquat Ali Khan imposed a 25% capital gains tax, which was designed to hit the Congress-supporting industrialists like the Tatas and Birlas.

The many idiocies of our first prime minister.

[surinder]

Johann,

Thanks for the answer.

Was the first elections held in 1937, or was it earlier? How many such elections were held?

So there does not seem like any post like the PM. What Nehru got was pretty much the top position.

Here is my other querry: Once you get elected, you take office you have to take an oath. What oath did they take?

[surinder]

The many idiocies of our first prime minister.

I am afraid I did not get it fully, what is the idocy of JLN?

[surinder]

Brihaspati Ji,

I sent an email to you.

[surinder]

And as if on cue Jinnah launched his Direct Action Day where the Muslim League government in Bengal engineered a pogrom of Hindus and Sikhs in Calcutta. The British administration did nothing to prevent the organised killings, and after the bloodshed Wavell took no action against the Muslim League government in Bengal!

It is basically the government engineering a massacre of people it is supposed to take care off.

[ramana]

surinder most of the stuff is in wiki. It would be nice if you looked it up and asked questions.

Thanks, ramana

[Airavat]

The many idiocies of our first prime minister.

I am afraid I did not get it fully, what is the idocy of JLN?

Succumbing to Wavell's demand that the Muslim League be included in the Interim Government in the interests of communal peace and harmony.

So there does not seem like any post like the PM. What Nehru got was pretty much the top position.

Yes his post was Vice-President of the Viceroy's Executive Council in the Interim Government. But in popular parlance he was called prime minister and the council was called "the cabinet".

[Pranav]

Hello folks, here is an An oustanding collection of You-tube videos of Subrahmaniam Swamy on Sonia Gandhi. This is an absolute must-watch. Quite essential to understanding the future strategic scenario of the Indian sub-continent.

This is related tp a defamation lawsuit filed by the "Indian National Overseas Congress Inc" against some leaders of the Indian-American community in the US: An excerpt of a news article is below:

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14654132
$100m lawsuit against US Hindu leaders
New York: New York-based Indian National Overseas Congress Inc (INOC) has filed a lawsuit in the Supreme Court of the State of New York for $100 million against three prominent Hindu activists Narain Kataria, Arish Sahani and Bharat Barai for allegedly defaming UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi by releasing a full page advertisement in The New York Times during her October visit to the US.

The plaintiff Dr Surinder Malhotra, Chief Executive Officer of INOC states in the complaint in New York Supreme court that false statements had been made in the advertisement about his boss Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul Gandhi in The New York Times dated October 6. INOC has hired a law firm which had represented Ariel Sharon of Israel against Time magazine.

Dr. Swamy on the role of NRIs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_1eXP-i ... re=channel


Dr. Swamy gives his legal analysis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2H9PW_T ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on INOC and Sonia Burden of Proof for lawsuit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzDdek24 ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on Sonia Gandhi's birth and birth certificate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bWtCkTt ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on Sonia Gandhi's citizenship
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SidLY-nS ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on Sonia Gandhi's education:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BfdiWpI ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on Sonia Gandhi's employment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R24JuPyN ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on Sonia Gandhi's KGB money:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vX64jdb ... annel_page


Dr. Subramaniam Swamy on Sonia's family smugglilng (Swami says Quattrochi was arming LTTE, which in turn was smuggling antiques to Sonia's sister):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mjdFujl ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on Rahul Gandhi's education & citizenship:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5As3uAc ... annel_page


Dr. Swamy on Sonia Gandhi's assault on Hindus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTzLOxnp ... annel_page

[Pranav]

x-post: ^^^ Apparently the lawsuit has recently been defeated.


From http://www.mail-archive.com/bharatudaym ... 00739.html

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Politics/Religion
Contact:
Narain Kataria
Phone: (718)
478-5735
E-mail: gandhiheritage@ gmail.com

THIRD
CONSECUTIVE IGNOMINIOUS DEFEAT
SUFFERED BY INDIAN
NATIONAL OVERSEAS
CONGRESS IN US
COURT
http://gandhiherita ge.org

New Jersey (Jan 22, 2009): Judge Nicholas J. Stroumtsos, Jr., J.S.C. of
Middlesex county in New Jersey dismissed 20 million dollar lawsuit filed by
Indian National Overseas Congress (INOC) at the instance of
Indian National Congress headed by Mrs. Sonia Gandhi, against Satya Dosapati,
Naresh Sharma,
Mahatma Gandhi Center and Hindu Temple, Mahatma Gandhi International
Foundation, Inc., Sunanda
Thali, Hindu International Concil Against Defamation, Inc., and John Does
1-100,on
Jan. 14th, 2009.
It should be noted that Indian National Overseas
Congress had filed two 100 million dollar defamation suits earlier, one against
Narain Kataria, Arish Sahani, et al.
in New York Court and another against Satya Dosapati, Sunanda Thali, et al. in
New Jersey Court. This was in response to an advertisement taken up in New
York Times on Oct 6, 2007 during Sonia Gandhi representation on Mahatma Gandhi
at United Nations. Since the
INOC is not the right party and has no locus standi, NJ case was rejected.
Subsequently, INOC withdrew the New York case.

INOC then filed a third lawsuit in New Jersey with purported assignment from
Indian National Congress to file the lawsuit on their behalf. However, such
assignment was never produced to defendants or to the court. In his judgement,
Judge Nicholas J. Stroumtsos ruled that assignment is not permitted in New
Jersey and even if Indian National Congress was substituted as plaintiff, it
cannot pursue the case since the statute of limitation (of one year) has
expired.
It is apparent that the purpose
behind filing these three lawsuits is to muzzle freedom of speech, subject to
financial hardships and serve as a warning to those who muster courage to speak
up. The conduct and basis on which these lawsuits were filed shows the
ethical and moral bankruptcy of Ms. Sonia Gandhi and her Congress Party. It
is a sad testimony to the reason why Forum for Gandhi Heritage protested and
took out the advertisement in New York Times claiming that Ms. Sonia Gandhi is
not the right person to represent Mahatma Gandhi at an international body.
Mahatma Gandhi stood for freedom of speech, for truth, honesty, unity of the
country and respect for all religions. INOC, Ms. Sonia Gandhi and Congress
party has little to show their respect for these values.

Forum feels immensely proud that not only the members of its Organizations but
the entire community stood behind to fight against the tyranny imposed on them.
This adversity imposed on us has become a source of strength to community and
showed that once we come together, we can fight against any evil, fight
against any crookedness and fight against those who will sacrifice the welfare
of a country for their personal interest.

[surinder]

What I am driving at is the following: JLN, and all the other Congressi leaders must have taken an oath of office to be able to assume that office. Every oath usually has something of a loyalty statement, i.e. what is that you will absolutely uphold. As far as I can find, this oath had loyalty to the British crown written in it. I don't see how this oath could have been an oath loyal to India. If I am right, then that leads to the conclusions that JLN were swearing loyalty (literally) to the British while supposedly fighting for freedom. The so-called independence is a dissappointment.

[surinder]

Yes his post was Vice-President of the Viceroy's Executive Council in the Interim Government. But in popular parlance he was called prime minister and the council was called "the cabinet".

That makes sense. I read in Shashi Tharoor's book that Nehru visited foreign countries in this capacity. He went to Germany and refused to meet the Naazes. He was already conducting the foregn policy, as Johann pointed out his cabinet position. Honhaar key chikney hot paat. He went to the front lines of where the allies were fighting and felt such surge of emotions that he felt like jumping into the ditches to fight himself. He stopped himself as more pressing matters awaited him in India. Such emtions can only come from intense loyalty to the crown.

[Keshav]

He stopped himself as more pressing matters awaited him in India. Such emtions can only come from intense loyalty to the crown.

You have to remember. Nehru was brought up in a very anglophilic environment. His first language was English, which he spoke with his parents despite growing up in India. Nehru's family was the direct result of Macauley's "brown sahib" program.

So you can't fault him for having different tastes. On the other extreme hand, you have Gandhi who dresses like an Indian and has an affinity for India despite being a foreigner (or perhaps because he was a foreigner) and recommends that spinning charkha and singing bhajans is the primary tool to oust an invader.

Only people like Bose and Bhagat Singh really found the way to strike a middle ground and both of them were marginalized like hell.

[brihaspati]

RamaYji,
Sorry if I have confused you. No I did not mean any incompleteness in your statements.

Regarding the previous sequence of posts, Surinderji, and others, many thanks for the discussion. Another foil to this discussion is the strange sequence of correspondence between MKG and JLN, through which MKG formally confirms that JLN would be his heir, in spite of stringent opposition to MKG's views for the future.

I will try to get relevant excerpts in the "leadership thread".

[brihaspati]

I am sure many have noticed a general negative trend in the periphery around India.

In Nepal, the forces ranged against India have been able to use their own blunders neatly into an anti-Indian frenzy for the benefit of international media. In Sri Lanka, the LTTE has been rolled up more or less by the SL military, and the whole problem has been neatly transferred to India. Here also the projection appears to be that it is an equal if not more a problem for India to deal with and solve, and that SL has minimal role to play in the aftermath. In Pakistan, of course Zardari in the front and the PA behind has scored in that they have been able to extract more "zazyia" from the west, and kept alive the the dangling sword of pressure on India to be more "proactive" in weakening itself as much as possible for the next stages of the ISI-Talebjabi plans of expansion. In Mayanmar, whose military junta is now strongly supported by China, the military feels bold enough to take the chief symbol of resistance to their rule, to trial, even on the excuse of meeting with an American.

This is a sign of US hesitation and retreat from South-South East Asia. China is aggressively trying to push US out and expand. But that in turn means that China is scared and there is something brewing inside PRC that can only be managed by pumping up nationalist and imperialistic ambitions in the public. I am not quite sure that PRC has the resources to backup such ambitions imperialistic projects, and if they are aware of this, then it can push them into taking foolhardy moves that is damaging to India in the short run but eventually destructive of CCP and PRC as they stand today. But the situation can turn worse in the short to medium term with such aggressive posturing behind the scenes by PRC.