Indian Space Program Discussion

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 05 May 2009 05:24

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 05 May 2009 05:27

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 05 May 2009 20:13

Okay, here's the deal on RISAT provided by IOL:

Its built by Israel, operated by Yindu's but it will also remain in touch with Israeli's. The images of Iranian territory will be given to Isra-eel which will complement their own sats. So understand this is Yindu-Yahudi co-operation is not just industrial but also operational. Of course the main use is to monitor Puki's. India now has RISAT 2, CARTOSAT 2 and 2A. Only two countries in Asia have the similar satellites: Japan IGS-4A and China Jian Bing 5.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 05 May 2009 21:11

Tango with Israel

Please read the article, it has lot's of details. I am pressed for time so can't post the excerpts.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 May 2009 21:58

sunilUpa wrote:Tango with Israel

Please read the article, it has lot's of details. I am pressed for time so can't post the excerpts.

Wow, amazing article except for the last part:

But widening India-Israeli strategic ties will only lead to a vicious cycle of increasing backlash that in turn will make pro-Israeli politicians push the country even closer to Israel. The sooner the Indian scientific community realises the grave political and national security implications of this and takes a principled stand on such matters, the better it will be for the country.

Was this "Chindu political speech" needed at the end of such a nice technical and informative article?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 May 2009 22:24

That aritcle is peddling BS and hyperbole and is short on information. It tries to rake up a controversy where there is none.

But ISRO chose to pretend it was a satellite “realised by ISRO in association with Israel Aerospace Industries...". Why ISRO resorted to obfuscation using words such as “realised” cannot be fathomed.

The definition of the word "realised" is as follows: "to bring into concrete existence; successfully completed or brought to an end". The word is obfuscating to only those who have the IQ of a donkey.

Given that ISRO’s RISAT-1 weighs 1,750 kg, and other current SAR-based reconnaissance satellites are also of the same order, a SAR satellite weighing just 300 kg is indeed remarkable.

Given that the author admits that details of either satellite are hard to come by, this comparison is idiotic. What is the mission life ? How much fuel ? What other imaging capabilities does RISAT-1 have ? RADAR in which bands ? How many downlinks ? What are the bandwidth of the downlinks ? Without these, it makes as much sense as saying "Given INSAT weigh more than 2000Kgs and produce weather maps in doordarshan, it is indeed remarkable that IRS series weight less than 1000Kg"

As will be at present argued, most probably the entire satellite was bought out by some Indian agency – which is clearly not ISRO and is presumably some intelligence agency – and ISRO has merely launched it. This is what analysts and media reports also generally believe. But, in keeping with its claims of openness and transparency, ISRO could have stated this up front and this might have been more acceptable from a national security point of view and gone down better in international perception.

Utter BS. We bought the SAR for AWACS from Israel. Israeli electronics have gone into numerous defence projects. We launched TecSAR for them. Why this "international perception" baloney ?

The political implications of India’s increased strategic ties and dealings with Israel are, however, doubtless serious and undesirable, notwithstanding the fatal attraction of mutually advantageous geostrategic locations....

The fatal attraction is mutual. For Israel this comes from the east-facing launch site at Sriharikota.

Israelis never sent in Islamists. They didnt train terrorists who killed on our soil, never voted on cashmere resolution in OIC, occupied Aksai Chin, Sent an aircraft carrier in Bay of Bengal, Partitioned us, Advised IG to declare emergency, Killed BSF, Funded Maoists or Air dropped arms over Purulia. If we can buy arms from Russia and Amreeka and sing the Piss tune and trade with BD, Cheeni, Pakis and Iranians, why not buy a satellite from Israelis ? What is this "fatal attraction" that the author speaks of ?

Given that the velocity of the spacecraft is about 8 kilometres/second, it would be just meaningless to say that a small band of infiltrators could be detected.

Did the idiot pause to think that maybe training camps or Paki troop concentrations and gun positions may be detected ? Mayby trails and ingress routes can be detected ?

But widening India-Israeli strategic ties will only lead to a vicious cycle of increasing backlash that in turn will make pro-Israeli politicians push the country even closer to Israel. The sooner the Indian scientific community realises the grave political and national security implications of this and takes a principled stand on such matters, the better it will be for the country.

Wow. Maybe we should sing the piss tune with the Pakis.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 May 2009 22:29

Exactly my sentiments too. The phrase "fatal attraction" is mentioned 3 times without once explaining why this attraction is fatal!! Typical commie style propaganda - always hint at an issue without having the b$#@s to name it. But again, what do you expect from the rabid pro-commie Chindu anyway.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 May 2009 22:58

A couple of questions to the gurus. As much as I find the political slant of the article disgusting, it does raise a couple of questions. Dont want to throw the baby out with the bathwater:

a) Do any of our satellites like Cartosat have the ability to do imaging in the UV and IR spectrum (like the author claims that the Ofeq satellites can do)?

b) Possible reasons why RISAT-1 will have a polar orbit? Is it to increase coverage (given that RISAT-2 has a LEO East-West orbit)?

Also, for once our politicos deserve a pat in the back for fast-tracking this launch, though its sad that it took 26/11 for this to happen.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 May 2009 23:15

Prem Kumar wrote:b) Possible reasons why RISAT-1 will have a polar orbit? Is it to increase coverage (given that RISAT-2 has a LEO East-West orbit)?

Prem Kumar Saar,

Dont believe the BS in the article. The idiot of an author says

From this strategic perspective, a polar orbiting satellite would be inefficient as it would spend too much time looking at areas that are not important....For the particular case of TecSAR and RISAT-2, the naive revisit period is about four days as compared with 18 to 22 days for polar orbiting satellites such as the Indian remote sensing satellites.

The RISAT-1 Page in ISRO's Site says "Orbit: Circular sunsynchronous, 586 Km"

586 KM circular orbit with an inclination of 98 degrees will give a orbital period of around 1.5 to 2 hours. The fact that it is sun synchronous (revisiting the same area under the same local solar time, giving the same lighting conditions and illumination angle), indicate that RISAT-1 will carry an optical payload (visible or infrared) as well. Either that, or the RADAR is high powered requiring the solar panels to face the sun constantly during imaging instead of relying on batteries. Yes, frequent revisit is important, yes 98 degree inclination will have tracks that spend much time over Russia/greenland/oceans/uninteresting places etc, but maybe applications with SAR/Optical correlation imagery seemed much tempting to ISRO .... ?

What gets my goat is that, does the author for a second believe that ISRO is not capable of launching in non-polar orbits (obviously false, since they launched TECSAR and RISAT-2) or it didnt dawn on anybody in ISRO that Polar orbits spend a lot of time over areas we are not interested in ? (I am sure he fancies himself to be this brave journalist through some great investigative reporting managed to uncover waste and stupidity in ISRO)

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 May 2009 00:20

Thanks Anujan-Saar.

Btw, another article in Deccan Chronicle

Risat-2 will bring down infiltration

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/sunday-d ... %80%99-007

Valid requirement from the Navy IMO. We definitely need dedicated satellites for naval recon, given the vastness of our ocean. From what I gathered earlier from this forum, Oceansat isnt for this purpose.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 May 2009 01:22

If you think about it, the real purpose of RISATs will be the monitoring of the ocean. Where can a surface vessel hide in the vast ocean between 100 min orbit spacing.

So any tracking can be easily done.

Monitoring jihadi groups trying to infiltrate via land will be harder thing given the amount of work required to discriminate the raw signal and downstream processing to a final product as meaningful information for any real time use.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 May 2009 01:42

I hope so. But I dont know if its feasible - the swath width of RISAT-2 is 100 KM. This seems like a very "narrow strip" compared to the surface area of the ocean to be covered

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 May 2009 01:45

It would be best to have a constellation of RISATs then one can guarantee a good coverage for real time monitoring of the IOR.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 06 May 2009 02:57

About RISAT-1 Excerpts

Multimode SAR system of Radar Imaging Satellite (RISAT) is planned to provide complementary imaging capability along with optical images from the well established IRS class of satellites. RISAT, based on active antenna technology, supports variety of resolution and swath requirements in C-band.

The satellite will be placed in sunsynchronous orbit with 6am-6pm local time condition. This orbit configuration is chosen to maximize solar power availability

Antenna consists of three deployable panels, each of 2mx2m size. Each of the panels is subdivided into four tiles of size 1mx1m, each consisting of 24x24 radiating elements.{Look at the picture, it is not a "umbrella-type" dish. The antenna is a flat radiating array.}

Antenna Specfications: Frequency 5.350 GHz, Antenna Size 6m (Along Flight Dirn) x 2m (Cross Flight Dirn), No. of TR modules 288, each with 10 W peak power, Average Output Power (TR-SSPA) 200 W Average DC Input Power 3.1 kW, {Now does the DDM understand why it is in excess of 1000Kgs ? 6mx2m active antenna unit !}

Active antenna is the major constituent of the RISAT supporting total 126 beams. The accuracy of pointing and knowledge of the pattern has a bearing on radiometry performance of RISAT and overall mapping requirement

In-orbit mass of the satellite will be around 1750 kg of which SAR payload will contribute around 950 kg. Two solar panels with high efficiency multijunction solar cell charges two sets of Ni-H2 batteries each with 40 AHr capacity. The satellite has a capability of storing 240 Gbits of data.... Prior to operation, the spacecraft will be roll tilted by ±34o to enable viewing either right or left side of the flight track. Additionally the satellite has a capability of pitch steering upto ±13o for operation in HRS mode. The satellite will also have yaw steering capability to minimize earth rotation effects. RISAT will operate in sun-synchronous orbit with altitude of 608.9 km with revisit period of 13 days
for CRS mode.

Like all the programmes of ISRO, RISAT specifications have been drawn with the national requirements in mind. The choice of frequency and polarization diversity will ensure its wide utilisation in crucial applications, specially in the field of agriculture, forestry and vegetation.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 May 2009 03:05

Interesting - so, as you had said earlier, this could be a dual Optical + SAR satellite!! Also, what does the active antenna & 288 TR modules mean? Is RISAT-1 going to have electronic beam steering along the lines of AESA as opposed to physically steering the antenna in the case of TecSAR?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 06 May 2009 03:06

Prem Kumar wrote:Interesting - so, as you had said earlier, this could be a dual Optical + SAR satellite!! Also, what does the active antenna & 288 TR modules mean? Is RISAT-1 going to have electronic beam steering along the lines of AESA as opposed to physically steering the antenna in the case of TecSAR?

I dont think it has a optical payload.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 May 2009 08:32

Oh ok - I had read the first sentence incorrectly. Also, I read further that TecSAR is also capable of electronic beam steering, which is used for its "mosaic" mode (would be surprising it the Israelis couldnt do it). It seems that the TR modules of RISAT-1 will give it the same capabilities.

Also, the 13 day revisit time implies that we are probably looking at a constellation of such radar satellites for 24x7 coverage (like Bade had mentioned earlier). Hope most of these would be home grown and we dont pay $200M for each

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 07 May 2009 04:36

Indian Space Research Organisation Implements ESRI Software for Image Processing

BHU, ISRO ready to study celestial phenomena

Ocean satellite our next mission: ISRO chief

and from

Country Manager India for STM Deepak Pandit exits

In addition STM is one of the select few Global Satellite vendors in discussions with Indian Space Research Organization(ISRO) for Ka band ground segment equipment

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 08 May 2009 04:59

ISRO over the moon as 1.35 lakh apply for 300 jobs

`Jugnu' to light up space research

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 09 May 2009 23:43

ISRO mulls setting up intermediate base on moon

Private participation important for country's space programmes'

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 12 May 2009 01:23

ISRO to launch re-usable rockets within next 10 to 15 years.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 May 2009 10:40

Isro plans for reusable rocket launchers

ISRO plans two PSLV, one GSLV launches

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 13 May 2009 10:15

Indian flag set to soar high with American astronaut

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 13 May 2009 11:31

How is it relevant to Indian space? When an Indian cosmonaut goes to space we can cheer about it. Some random yankee like feustel or chawla are irrelevant.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 13 May 2009 20:52

vavinash wrote:How is it relevant to Indian space? When an Indian cosmonaut goes to space we can cheer about it. Some random yankee like feustel or chawla are irrelevant.

Anyone who serves Indian interest and well being need to be nurtured, encouraged and recognized, be it resident Indians, non-resident-Indians, Person of Indian Origin, or pain old foreigner who loves or serves Bharat.

Chawla did care and serve India more than many resident Indians. How many children of her school/district she inspire even after her death? She was useful when alive and even after death.

How is it that many admins that contribute on BR Forum and maintain the website content are not resident Indians or citizens? but their service to India in the form of Bharat-Rakshak is unmatched by resident Bharat-vasee.

I say let us build a bigger caravan of people who serve Indian interests by inclusion, and not by exclusion.

sekhon · Post by **sekhon** » 13 May 2009 20:55

Arun Ji,

WELL SAID!!!

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 13 May 2009 21:27

Arun_S wrote: Anyone who serves Indian interest and well being need to be nurtured, encouraged and recognized, be it resident Indians, non-resident-Indians, Person of Indian Origin, or pain old foreigner who loves or serves Bharat.

I agree on Indian citizens (resident or non resident). The rest are not relevant for me but I accept if others disagree with me.

Arun_S wrote: Chawla did care and serve India more than many resident Indians. How many children of her school/district she inspire even after her death? She was useful when alive and even after death.

How is it that many admins that contribute on BR Forum and maintain the website content are not resident Indians or citizens? but their service to India in the form of Bharat-Rakshak is unmatched by resident Bharat-vasee.

Inspire them to do what?? become american citizens and astronauts? Frankly I would prefer Rakesh sharma to be the mascot if required. Who are the admins who are not citizens? I for one can't wrap my head around dual citizenship nonsense. You can be loyal to one country only.

Arun_S wrote: I say let us build a bigger caravan of people who serve Indian interests by inclusion, and not by exclusion.

By all means. Lets not go to the extent of idolizing them.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 May 2009 21:51

vavinash wrote: Inspire them to do what?? become american citizens and astronauts? Frankly I would prefer Rakesh sharma to be the mascot if required. Who are the admins who are not citizens? I for one can't wrap my head around dual citizenship nonsense. You can be loyal to one country only.

vavinash ji, Kalpana Chawla inspired a lot of young girls in her home state to take up science and showed them that they could achieve their dream - that does not necessarily equate it with becoming US citizens - and there is nothing wrong in becoming an astronaut, is there? She achieved what she wanted to achieve with a lot of hardwork and dedication...I doubt it was a cakewalk for her. BTW there is no glory in whining that one is more patriotic simply coz one stayed back in India (and doing nothing) as opposed to someone going abroad who achieved his/her goal. In the end what matters is what one achieves and how one utilizes it to ensure a brighter future for next generation of Indians.

The other 'Indian' astronauts like Suni Williams et. al, I could care less about in context of helping Indians despite all the media drumbeat. However, like Arun_S said, we should encourage and cultivate every soul who gives a positive outlook on India - after all that is +ve psy-ops. It is time we lost our non-aligned/peace-loving/Gandhi-giri/jholawallah BS and become street smart as a nation (while asking other nations to be non-aligned/peace-loving/Gandhian/jholawallah

). But if I understand what you are saying, your point is also valid - we should cultivate but not salivate over them like a paltu-kutta as our DDM is inclined to do. Our DDM is still fixated on Gora boot-licking hence the minimal coverage you see for the likes of Dr.Thomas who are doing wonders while in India. For them a crumb of shit thrown by a Gora is more tasty than all the home grown fresh food - an attitude esp. seen in English desi media. But they have their use too - after all a paltu-kutta can be made paltu to anybody who throws crumbs at him.

Quite a few B-R admins are not resident in India and are possibly US citizens - doesn't take away anything for their love and respect for India. Re. the dual citizenship loyalty, tell that to the Israelis....some of the most decorated Israeli Army officers were dual US-Israel citizens....nobody doubted their loyalty and some of them paid for it with their lives.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 May 2009 22:11

at the risk of going OT, Indianness is a state of the mind, not just a symbol on a booklet called passport. after all there are many with the later who lack the former(e.e A Roy), are they valuable as Indians ?

sekhon · Post by **sekhon** » 13 May 2009 22:14

Raja.. you are absolutely correct.

On a related front this so called IT revolution that India has spearheaded.. was on the backs of Indians who migrated or went to the U.S. (albeit for personal reasons), and many subsequently became American citizens. Nevertheless, we take pride in their accomplishments, and the 'boomerang' effect has also benefited India. In addition, many are returning to their roots to continue to contribute to India's successes.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 May 2009 22:18

Arun_S wrote:..
I say let us build a bigger caravan of people who serve Indian interests by inclusion, and not by exclusion.

Admins - this one is a keeper! Please use this quote somewhere on BR! Great post Arun.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 14 May 2009 00:16

vavinash wrote:Who are the admins who are not citizens? I for one can't wrap my head around dual citizenship nonsense. You can be loyal to one country only..

Significant portion of BR webmasters and admins are not Indian citizens, not sure why you linger at or love Bharat-Rakshak / BR Forum?
By your own words and postures you seem to be excluding yourself from what these gentlemen have done to build, maintain and expand this forum.

What if you some day you come to know that I (the webmaster of BR Space and Missile section) is not Indian citizen but Afghani? I guess you would then stop reading BR missile and space section and also all my posts.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 14 May 2009 00:37

After all Arun bhai does reside in Khyber Durra!

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 14 May 2009 01:57

** OT Junk Self Deleted **

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 May 2009 07:01

Gentlemen, please direct any further discussions on 'Indian-ness' and the lack there-of to the Nukkad thread. Thanks.

In Dec, IIT-K’s little Jugnu to find its place in sky

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 May 2009 15:28

JaiS wrote:ISRO mulls setting up intermediate base on moon

Private participation important for country's space programmes'

That base on the moon stuff reminds me of a very old sci fi story in an old Indian mag (Daily mirror?) (written by an Indian) about 15 yr back.He had mentioned an Indian lunar base with an 'exponential' radar system to be built on .. the dark side of the moon facing away from the Earth., of course for 'peaceful' purposes a.k.a non aligned movement.The same writer had written about Indian missiles with artificial brains using 'flock' computing, where a bunch of these will target,categorize and prioritize the hostile targets in an enemy country even taking into account the volatile political scenario in that country, in short combining a real time war scenario with political uncertainty and then choosing the most likely strategic target to commit 'suicide' with their nuke payloads.Anyone know who this author is ?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 15 May 2009 01:11

Surprise Surprise! Where did this come from! I thought we would be lucky if at least held on to the 2010 launch of the first satellite of the constellation. Hope ISRO can keep up with what it has said..................

India to Launch 1st IRNSS Satellite by December

http://www.asmmag.com/news/india-to-lau ... -december-

The Indian Space Research Organisation says it is on track to launch the first satellite in the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite system by the end of the year. The entire constellation will be in place by 2012.

The GEOs will be located at 34°E, 83°E and 132°E. The GSOs will be in orbits with a 24,000 km apogee and 250 km perigee inclined at 29 degrees. Two of the GSOs will cross the equator at 55°E and two at 111°E.

The system is designed to provide 20 metre accuracy over the Indian Ocean and 10 metres over the sub-continent.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 15 May 2009 01:59

That's great news!!

Hopefully the 20m accuracy is only for civvie purposes and our missiles will receive sub-meter level accurate signals

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 15 May 2009 03:08

KrishG wrote:Surprise Surprise! Where did this come from! I thought we would be lucky if at least held on to the 2010 launch of the first satellite of the constellation. Hope ISRO can keep up with what it has said..................

India to Launch 1st IRNSS Satellite by December

http://www.asmmag.com/news/india-to-lau ... -december-

The Indian Space Research Organisation says it is on track to launch the first satellite in the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite system by the end of the year. The entire constellation will be in place by 2012.

The GEOs will be located at 34°E, 83°E and 132°E. The GSOs will be in orbits with a 24,000 km apogee and 250 km perigee inclined at 29 degrees. Two of the GSOs will cross the equator at 55°E and two at 111°E.

The system is designed to provide 20 metre accuracy over the Indian Ocean and 10 metres over the sub-continent.

Excellent.
Further the following is also important:

The system is designed to provide 20 metre accuracy over the Indian Ocean and 10 metres over the sub-continent.

The GEO satellites will have a 9.4 year lifespan. The GSOs will have a design life of 11 years.

ISRO will use its Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle to place the satellites in orbit.

The system will require a sophisticated ground segment. The space craft control centre will contain two telemetry uplink stations and a navigation centre. A timing centre, a laser ranging centre and 20 ranging and integrity monitoring stations will also be established. A data communications network will connect the entire system.

IRNSS signals will consist of a Special Positioning Service and a Precision Service. Both will be carried on L5 (1176.45 MHz) and S (2492.08 MHz). The SPS signal will be modulated by a 1 MHz BPSK signal. The Precision service will use BOC(5,2)

IMHO, first mention of precision service.

Also possible typo error: "Special Positioning Service" instead of "Standard Positioning Service"

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 15 May 2009 03:26

An old but informative article on IRNSS
India heads for a regional navigation satellite system DR ARJUN SINGH AND DR S K SARASWATI

They provide is a good comparison of Standard Precision accuracy of IRNSS and GPS (18 m vs 4 m). IIRC the GPS precision service has accuracy of ~0.05 meter, one can guess what the corresponding Yindu system's accuracy will be.