Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

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raji
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by raji »

samuel wrote:OK, I am glad you know better. You have no answer for how to deal with inheritence and you've just let a bunch of inheritors run free. What kind of equality are about mate?

What about experience vs. skill and what that means for meritocracy. A new talent walks in the office that requires you to fire a 25 year veteran. What do you do, tell the veteran sorry? Does your meritocracy have compassion?

You talk about equality here, you say every one starts at the same spot, but the gun went off many generations ago mate and people have been running for a very long time. So, what are you on about, do you have any answers other than reservations for marrying across caste/religion (which I will be a beneficiary of btw)?

And what is meritocracy by the way? Who decides these figures of merit?

Everyone here knows the issues with social injustice, caste issues and poor governance. What about some solutions?

S
PS: Can I request you to please stay with samuel?

Certainly Samuel............all you had to do was ask....... :)

Are you quibbling with me, because I used the word "unadulterated equality".........

Well, that is the goal for me.........

Do I have a scheme of attaining 100% unadulterated equality ? even on paper ? Let me make you happy, Samuel....I dont.....

But I am talking degrees..........and degrees matter......there are no absolutes, but doesnt mean you dont keep striving for it...

Again, if I didnt know any better, I would think that by pointing out the fact that there are no absolutes and I seemed to have used a word in its absolute sense, you are equating firing an old guy with a politician in India allowing his relatives to swindle money with impunity.......but as you keep acknowledging..........I know better...... :)

You can take your pick in your scenario. Fire the old guy or retain him or give him a generous severance, the worse of these three scenarios do not morally equate with family patronage system in India..........not even remotely close....and I know, Samuel..........you know better..... :). You compensate the inequality of inheritance by as much equality as possible in every other sphere, not by creating a system of patronage.......why doesnt one then use inheritance as an excuse for holocaust.........or why dont you accept Talibans excuse for perpetuating barbarism when they say that it is because of slow pace of justice in Pak courts.....

The following is one example of the result of our family patronage system......where one "necessarily advances at the expense of others".....

http://election.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... -crore.htm
samuel
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by samuel »

Thank you.

I am not quibbling with you because it is unproductive.
I just want to know what answers you are going to propose. In fact, you don't have to say anything about the problems and just write the answers down. People will get it. Otherwise, will you let people breathe and think with you?

you are talking about equality and how to bring that about. You are talking about corruption and how to remove that. These are real issues. But, you have to admit, the inability to come up with a strategy that works is not the reason to follow a screw it, I'll just create a law and that's that, solution. The frustrations, the push pulls, the alternates, the scuttling, the demonising, these ARE the issues that require thinking to produce effective answers. What incremental solutions are you talking about? Just a random collection of laws that any lawyer will run end circles around in a democracy?

I don't have the answers. If I did, I would type them out as I ask you to. But i sure as hell would've guessed, if i didn't know any better, that you sure sounded like you did. sad to hear otherwise.

When you talk about equality, there are way too many dimensions to it. equality how, equality where, equality when, what is the context? The old man happens to be someone from your village, who has been in service to you for many years. He has only one child and this income helps him put him through college. You know his father well, he took care of your own father. He's not as good as he was when he was young, but he has been loyal. The new guy happens to come from some whizbang college and an absolute hard worker. He'll put computers and what not. He was recommended by a colleague to who you mentioned that you were starting to thing about getting someone, but weren't so sure. You certainly don't have enough money to pay off both. Based on technical merit, there is no doubt the youngster wins. you can see he's a good catch. What will you do?

And if you really can't find easy solutions, how can you just say equality, equality as if its a matter of someone saying yes, yes and the whole thing just works. How frustrating!


S
raji
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by raji »

Samuel,

I dont expect an intellect like you to stoop to the level of picking a "spelling mistake" to counter my arguments. It would be a sad day indeed when people like you would do that. From all the very substantial arguments that I have made, you picked on one phrase "unadulterated equality" and my lack of solution to the "inheritance problem". You could accord me more respect by countering my other core arguments by using your more than substantial intellect. I look forward to learning from it. I only ask that you be intellectually honest.

Courage, my dear Samuel, is a very rare commodity and it is to intellect what a brain is to the body (think about it for a moment, you will enjoy the analogy !.....it is kinda counter intuitive......but true). Courage is what makes an intellectual, intellectually honest.

I challenge you to have the courage to face up to the answers your own intellect will give you and go against the orthodoxy (majority opinion) anywhere, including BRF.....
raji
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by raji »

samuel wrote:Thank you.

I am not quibbling with you because it is unproductive.
I just want to know what answers you are going to propose. In fact, you don't have to say anything about the problems and just write the answers down. People will get it. Otherwise, will you let people breathe and think with you?

you are talking about equality and how to bring that about. You are talking about corruption and how to remove that. These are real issues. But, you have to admit, the inability to come up with a strategy that works is not the reason to follow a screw it, I'll just create a law and that's that, solution. The frustrations, the push pulls, the alternates, the scuttling, the demonising, these ARE the issues that require thinking to produce effective answers. What incremental solutions are you talking about? Just a random collection of laws that any lawyer will run end circles around in a democracy?

I don't have the answers. If I did, I would type them out as I ask you to. But i sure as hell would've guessed, if i didn't know any better, that you sure sounded like you did. sad to hear otherwise.

When you talk about equality, there are way too many dimensions to it. equality how, equality where, equality when, what is the context? The old man happens to be someone from your village, who has been in service to you for many years. He has only one child and this income helps him put him through college. You know his father well, he took care of your own father. He's not as good as he was when he was young, but he has been loyal. The new guy happens to come from some whizbang college and an absolute hard worker. He'll put computers and what not. He was recommended by a colleague to who you mentioned that you were starting to thing about getting someone, but weren't so sure. You certainly don't have enough money to pay off both. Based on technical merit, there is no doubt the youngster wins. you can see he's a good catch. What will you do?

And if you really can't find easy solutions, how can you just say equality, equality as if its a matter of someone saying yes, yes and the whole thing just works. How frustrating!


S
Sometimes there are no incremental answers. Sometimes there are. Read my posts. I happen to believe that this is not the time for incremental answers, but radical surgery. If you open your mind to at least consider radical surgery as a possibility, you will find many answers in my posts (not all), maybe not all correct........but many many attempted answers. I am hoping to discuss those and why those are flawed............just dont be hung up on only incremental solutions... you got all other threads discussing those......allow me to discuss radical surgery........
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

Rudradev ji, can you email me at pranav.brf at gmail . thanks.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rudradev »

Pranav wrote:Rudradev ji, can you email me at pranav.brf at gmail . thanks.
Done.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Equality has to coexist with incentives for performance. But "majjhim" pantha is the best. My experience suggests that for most people, basic needs of food, shelter, health care, clean water, and energy/fuel to carry out necessary daily activities reign supreme. It is not impossible to ensure this for a reasonably sized population in a productive and resourceful land like India.

If we forget this basic thrust of ensuring provision for basic needs under reasobable innate drives to produce and work, we land up with extremes of destitution seen even in the most prosperous of lands, or in the USA or Latin America. If we forget "incentives" we land up with the endpoint of USSR. If we choose to go the state-capitalist route of China we land up with the unenviable option of riding a tiger of popular consumption demand only kept alive by foreign markets, a tiger who will eat up the rider the moment there is no meat left.

India has to balance between incentives fro growth and soical justice for the majority in poverty. Even to change their fate, you need their consent, and I do not think a brute force tactic will work. Existing active generation has to be subsidized, to win their consent for change. That change will be to increase the capability of the next generations. This is a huge tactical investment in social infrastructure for change.

Think of the business model of giving good "termination compensation package" to an ailing industry's untrainable workforce, and invest in training those among the workforce still having time left to train, and new potential entrants, while upgrading the machinery of the plant, to fit new higher levels of production and technology.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Now that Congress can rule comfortably without many qualms from the Left, how do you think they will maneuver with Pakistan?

The rest of the world is cowering under the threat of nuclear holocaust and most Indians don't even seem aware of whats happening. However, now, India really needs to get on the ball about this.

Specifically, what should Congress do to avoid this disaster of a nuclear attack on Indian soil from a Taliban that has control of the Pakistan infrastructure and nuclear weapons?

How much correct intelligence (within reason for an Internet forum) does India have about Pakistani nuclear capability?

What security precautions have the secular/power hungry aspects of the PA and ISI taken to secure the nuclear missiles?
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Tilak »

Dont know if this has been posted :

Disconnect emerges in India-US military views
New Delhi, May 14: A clear disconnect has emerged in the military views of India and the US, with a top American military commander saying Washington is comfortable with the increased presence of the Chinese Navy in the Indian Ocean, a suggestion that New Delhi bristles at.

This apart, Admiral Timothy J Keating, who heads the Hawaii-based US Pacific Command, said he would like China to come aboard - as an observer and later as a participant - in the annual India-US Malabar naval war games that occasionally take on a trilateral hue. India is hardly expected to root for this.

And, the US would be comfortable with the Chinese Navy acquiring berthing facilities in Sri Lanka and the Maldives, a move that India has been vehemently opposing, Keating, who was on a two-day visit here, told reporters Thursday.

Keating also felt the broader India-US military-military contact could be considerably ramped if New Delhi signs three rather controversial pacts, one of them on providing mutual logistics support, that have been pending for long. India has often said it is uncomfortable with the language of the pacts and that they would have to be reworked.

"It's not a question of us versus them. There's lots of room in the Indian Ocean for various players," Keating contended.

"We are not in favour of splitting the Indian Ocean into sphere but are talking in terms of cooperating and collaborating and sharing best practices," he maintained.

Keating also welcomed the increased participation of the Chinese Navy in the anti-piracy operations in the Gulf of Aden at a time when India has been expressing growing concern over this, viewing it as Beijing's muscling into New Delhi's backyard.

In floating the Indian Ocean Naval Seminar (IONS) last year, India aimed to crate a regional grouping stretching from the eastern coast of Africa to Australia. The US and China were specifically excluded on the ground they were not Indian Ocean littoral states.

Speaking about the Malabar exercises, Keating said the US had "no objection" to China coming on board.

China had created a major ruckus when the trilateral version of the war games - also involving Australia, Japan and Singapore - were conducted in the Bay of Bengal in 2007 against the usual exercise area off India's west coast.
.....
As for the three military pacts, one of these is Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) that enables cashless transactions for fuel and other non-lethal supplies that are balanced at the end of the year.

India says agreeing to this would be tantamount to granting the US navy and air force berthing and landing facilities in India.

This apart there is CISMOA (Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement) and the End-User Agreement.

The first would have the Indian military reconfiguring their communications frequencies to make them compatible with the US grid. While there are some advantages to this, particularly during disaster relief operations and war games, the downside would be compromising India's security setup.

As for the End-User Agreement, Indian Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta is on record as terming this as restrictive.

Under the agreement, India would have to certify that the US military hardware it purchases would not be used in combat. :rotfl:

Thus, even though India has already deployed the troop carrier INS Jalashwa it has purchased from the US, the End-User Agreement for this is yet to be inked.

The End-User Agreement has also not been signed for the eight Boeing P8I Orion :!: long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft that are being purchased for the Indian Navy.

The three pacts were high on the agenda during Defence Minister AK Antony's visit to the US earlier this year and there was considerable speculation that they would be signed. This did not happen as India felt it was being tied down too much in return for too little.

During his visit here, Keating held discussions with his Indian counterpart, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, National Security Advisor MK Narayanan and Foreign Secretary Shivshankar Menon.
:AIOT:
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rudradev »

Tilak wrote: This apart, Admiral Timothy J Keating, who heads the Hawaii-based US Pacific Command, said he would like China to come aboard - as an observer and later as a participant - in the annual India-US Malabar naval war games that occasionally take on a trilateral hue. India is hardly expected to root for this.

And, the US would be comfortable with the Chinese Navy acquiring berthing facilities in Sri Lanka and the Maldives, a move that India has been vehemently opposing, Keating, who was on a two-day visit here, told reporters Thursday.
My my, such freezing cold water this Admiral Keating is pouring over the eight heady years of US-India military bonhomie, Cope This and Cope That!

It appears the Obama crew are bending over backwards to reassure the Flied Lice that all those Bush-era visions of "Indo-US strategic partnership aimed at balancing China" are history. Dead and buried.

Easy to deduce what has happened. Hillary Clinton made her first State visit to Beijing, where she begged the Chinese to cooperate economically and save America's bacon from the worst effects of an impending recession. In return the Chinese asked for a laundry list of favours. Clear and present termination of any strategic partnership between India and the US that could be construed as threatening Chinese interests... was obviously one of them.

Recognizing China's military, economic and political pre-eminence in Asia seems to have been another. With the good Admiral insisting there is nothing wrong if China establishes naval bases in the Maldives and Sri Lanka, it appears our American strategic partners have acquiesced in the creation of a Chinese "string of pearls" around India's periphery.

I speculate... though of course I cannot prove... that a third such favour demanded by Beijing, entails Washington giving a no-objection certificate to a Paki-French nuclear deal. The Chinese vigorously lobbied the Bush administration for the Pakis to receive an equal-equal 123 agreement... and I am certain they are behind the scenes on the emergence of this strange proposal by Sarkozy to transfer "civilian" nuclear technology and fuel to the notorious homeland of Photochor Khan.

Can you imagine the furore such a proposal from the French would have caused, had it come at the time of the Bush administration? Yet the Obama crew has not even raised an eyebrow. I am sure they have promised the Chinese that they won't obstruct a Paki-French nuclear deal going through the NSG either.

In fact, the only reason why the US hasn't stepped in as the broker of a US-Pak nuclear deal, very probably, is because such an action would undermine America's credibility in persuading India to "make concessions" to Pakistan. No way could any GOI, even the Constable Singh GOI, afford to give away Kashmir at the obvious behest of the same Americans who were also giving nuke tech to the Pakis.

So to preserve American leverage over Delhi, the deal is being done "through" the French instead. However, I can't imagine that the US and China are not 400% behind it.

Anyway, we can rest assured that the Democrats favour a reversion to the good old Madeleine Albright days of fellating the Chinese at India's expense. http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... -neighbors We'll need to be very demonstrative about our strengths today, as compared to nine years ago, for the benefit of the neo-Clintonistas who would prefer to write us off as a secondary Asian power once again.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

There is going to be no immediate nuke attacks by Talebs on India. For nukes are either in direct PRC control in North Kashmir, or ranged further south and east along Indian borders under US control. However the threat of this will be used by the troika (US+PRC+TSP) to try and wrangle Kashmir from India. I can see at tleast in the immediate future, more "autonomy" to J&K, more investments - make that more "money" for misappropriation by the feudal overlords of Islamic Kashmir - a part of which will find its way into separatist hands. More "connections" allowed to develop across the border. Essentially, taking J&K firmly and gradually towards "independence" - something that Cong is probably already commiitted to, as a price for external support in its internal battles. RG has been making all the right noises about J&K, in tandem with Farookh and Omar Abdullah.

Maybe its time for Indians to think of a counter-move in removing the Clintonista party from Capitol in the next elections - this is for all the community-excellencies who claimed/and still continue to claim that BO was the best thing to happen to India. Democrats are consistently anti-Indian nationalism - their occasional seeming support for Cong should not be equated to support for nationalist India.

At worst, I would see, the entire gangetic valley being targeted and falling before the Islamists. Kashmir joining TSP and a broader corridor for PRC opened in the north to connect to TSP. The troika would like to keep India further away from CAR and Russia - the two places that can possibly jeopardize their plans. India should immediately launch its own development programmes for carriers, extend its missile reach, produce submarines of its own, and try and develop its own fighters. Sat shooting capabilities will come in handy, even defending own sats could be important.

I don't see, why India cannot use its tremendous "brains" passing out each year from institutes of "national importance" to develop things in 5 years that took Americans 50 years at 1/10 th the cost. What is it that makes Indians stop and say "oh we cannot do it"?
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Abhi_G »

brihaspati wrote:
What is it that makes Indians stop and say "oh we cannot do it"?
1 dollar == 50 INR.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by samuel »

I don't see, why India cannot use its tremendous "brains" passing out each year from institutes of "national importance" to develop things in 5 years that took Americans 50 years at 1/10 th the cost. What is it that makes Indians stop and say "oh we cannot do it"?
The problem is that Indians claim they can do it in 5 years (see defense industry) and are really gung ho. Oddly, something always comes in the way. I'd say for some "idealized" experiments, "theoretical" progress, "visionary" insights, this is all well and good.

When it comes to designing a better crankshaft or combustion chamber or pray a turbine, or improving solar efficiencies by 20% it generally falls apart. The problem is they are unwilling in many cases to collectively spend the 50 years of sustained effort needed to come out on top, thinking it should've, could've, would've been done in 5. Without swaraj and swadesh there is no swabhiman. Abhiman there is, of course, on the MKI and other imports. But with the nano there is hope!

JMT
S
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

I would see the progress on the missile and nuclear front as indication that "it can be done". What is lacking - political will, astute selection of technical/organizational leadership who are persistent and determined, sufficient incentives for young brains, funds - or is it something else - the lucrative chance of getting cuts out of "foreign" contracts?
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by ramana »

Rudradev its a fallout of what Shyam Saran was worrying about. I am surprised no one made the connection yet.

Also if the hardware is not for combat is it for parades?

What happened to "you pays your money and takes your choice?"
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

As I have written in the elections thread, this is a greater worry now after the "surprising" victory of the Cong. RG insisting on staying away form the giv, and MMS insisting on keeping him in, with no one in the dynasty taking a share in cabinet decision making directly - was the price of Talebjabi drama, Islamists keeping quiet during the elections, and Cong's winning ensured - the future "concessions"? So that the dynasty can play innocent and ride any popular nationalistic backlash back to power? They cannot be allowed to be seen as separate from the GOI. For if they survive in politics, the external interests remain intact.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by raji »

Just about all our (India's or Hindu's) problems can be attributed to the internecine warfare we have going on within our society for resources. This warfare is of the insidious kind, on many counts, but particularly so because this warfare has no rules. Therefore, in the name of "competetion for scarce resources" which is neither a competetion nor for scarce resources, we assault each other's spirit in the most gruesome way.

The proof of this internecine warfare?

1. Not so gradual melting away or dissipation of any laws or belief in laws and thereby implementation of any laws, good or bad

2. Factured and fissured society with very little civil and meaningful dialogue within the society across groups or even people within groups (people do yell at each other all the time)

3. Manifestation of the above through election results which even in this election threw up results that indicate a highly fractured society

4. Highly permissive, anything goes society............where there is no distinction between thievary and honest behaviour

Unless this internecine civil war or many civil wars are stopped, Indian society will not be able to take up any project that requires a community effort efficiently, whether that be in foreign policy, defence policy, economic policy, internal infra-structure development, education, health care or any other front.

Therefore, when we constantly complain and harp on why India is not doing as well as we would like in all the above spheres when specific incidents highlight our failure, almost as if we are surprised each time, how a people as wonderful as us dont comprehend even the basics, it in fact, is a matter of no surprise. It all goes back to this internecine warfare...

Before people start pointing to competetion in the most successful societies of today as being equivalent to the kind of warfare we are having within our society, lets stop and think and not kid ourselves that there is any "equal equal".
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by raji »

Pranav wrote:
raji wrote: We Indians are the worst institution builders in the history of the universe and we must discuss how we become institution builders, without which you cannot accomplish any goals. Individual effort can only go so far
Raji, your experience may be limited. What institutions like ISRO, BARC have achieved is very creditable by any standards.
These two are exceptions that prove the rule.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shubho »

Link
China Institute for International Strategic Studies and the China Defense Science and Technology Information Center argue for at least a moderate buildup of its nuclear forces. China’s deployment along the border with India has traditionally been insufficient and the nuclear tests signal that India intends to create a significant new nuclear threat to China. If India deploys weapons aimed at China, they conclude, China must respond with new deployments aimed at India.

If India does not deploy its Agni missiles and if the U.S. and Japanese interest in deploying national or theater missile defenses along China’s eastern shores remains just talk, China will likely continue with its current, relatively modest plans to modernize its nuclear forces.
Gurus, any idea if they have now deployed those horrifying MTs of Thermo Nuclear Devices towards Delhi, Kolkata, Mumbai ??
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

PRC definitely already have nuclear devices placed around India, directly under its own name, all along occupied territories in India and ocupied Tibet, but also by proxy (as TSP nukes) in North Kashmir where they are best placed to strike at Northern India. They are less likely to use the eastern sector for this, since the actual Indian damages can be dubious because of population densities, topological features and more importantly the collateral effects on sympathetic allies like Nepal, BD, and Myanmar. These are mor elikely to be areas for attempted irregular and regular incursions militarily.

This sort of press outings are meant to provide sufficient threats to alter perceptions, especially in public opnion and politics of more open countries, not to take measures to counter PRC buildup. India has to build up its own counter nuke ring around PRC anyway - to assure the Chinese that MAD is not something India will play shrinking violet to. But to do this, India also need dominate IO and make its presence felt in the Pacific or China Sea. The best way to tie up PRC is to place a nuke delivery capable fleet and submarines around the eastern coast of China.

We do not want to destroy China's populations. But we want to dissolve the CCP and liberate Tibet. We do not want Chinese presence anymore in the immediate vicinity of India, occupying Indian territories and helping the most virulent of terrorist organizations like the PA or Talebs, orpromoting anti-Indian violent sentiments in the neighbours.

A start shoudl have been made in India rooting for restoration of democracy in Myanmar, and highlight the connection and role of the PRC in bolstering the junta. The trick is to draw out PRC more in SE Asia, and engage it and expose its role in essentially imperilaist takeovers of the smaller nations for their natural resources.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

I don't see any evidence of US+PRC collusion against India at present. I would grant that it's possible, but one needs reliable data points before making such claims.

Indian nationalist forces are on the backfoot after present elections and present Indian government is pretty much aligned with western interests. On the other hand, western interests seeking global domination will inevitably collide with the PRC, which is independent of the Western block, as far as one can see. You do see CPC vs. West conflicts on issues like Sudan, Tibet and Sri Lanka, for example. The massive indebtedness of the US to PRC is also a source of tension, with China worrying that the US will devalue the dollar.

Russia appears at present to be fairly independent of the western block, but is still aligned with the West to a certain extent. Russia may spar with the West in theaters of lesser importance like Venezuela or Georgia, but will never challenge the core interests of the western block in connection with Israel or Iran.


brihaspati wrote:There is going to be no immediate nuke attacks by Talebs on India. For nukes are either in direct PRC control in North Kashmir, or ranged further south and east along Indian borders under US control. However the threat of this will be used by the troika (US+PRC+TSP) to try and wrangle Kashmir from India. I can see at tleast in the immediate future, more "autonomy" to J&K, more investments - make that more "money" for misappropriation by the feudal overlords of Islamic Kashmir - a part of which will find its way into separatist hands. More "connections" allowed to develop across the border. Essentially, taking J&K firmly and gradually towards "independence" - something that Cong is probably already commiitted to, as a price for external support in its internal battles. RG has been making all the right noises about J&K, in tandem with Farookh and Omar Abdullah.

Maybe its time for Indians to think of a counter-move in removing the Clintonista party from Capitol in the next elections - this is for all the community-excellencies who claimed/and still continue to claim that BO was the best thing to happen to India. Democrats are consistently anti-Indian nationalism - their occasional seeming support for Cong should not be equated to support for nationalist India.

At worst, I would see, the entire gangetic valley being targeted and falling before the Islamists. Kashmir joining TSP and a broader corridor for PRC opened in the north to connect to TSP. The troika would like to keep India further away from CAR and Russia - the two places that can possibly jeopardize their plans. India should immediately launch its own development programmes for carriers, extend its missile reach, produce submarines of its own, and try and develop its own fighters. Sat shooting capabilities will come in handy, even defending own sats could be important.

I don't see, why India cannot use its tremendous "brains" passing out each year from institutes of "national importance" to develop things in 5 years that took Americans 50 years at 1/10 th the cost. What is it that makes Indians stop and say "oh we cannot do it"?
Last edited by Pranav on 20 May 2009 17:25, edited 3 times in total.
Pranav
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

brihaspati wrote: We do not want to destroy China's populations. But we want to dissolve the CCP and liberate Tibet. We do not want Chinese presence anymore in the immediate vicinity of India, occupying Indian territories and helping the most virulent of terrorist organizations like the PA or Talebs, orpromoting anti-Indian violent sentiments in the neighbours.

A start shoudl have been made in India rooting for restoration of democracy in Myanmar, and highlight the connection and role of the PRC in bolstering the junta. The trick is to draw out PRC more in SE Asia, and engage it and expose its role in essentially imperilaist takeovers of the smaller nations for their natural resources.
Brihaspati ji, I think India needs to worry about its own independence - too many internal issues. Nationalist forces in India are on the backfoot and the integrity of the nationalist leadership is itself in doubt. So issues like Tibet, Myanmar etc can be on the backburner. I would even say that PRC did a favour to India by helping GoSL finish the LTTE.

The best thing would be for India to keep a low profile, mind its own business, while strengthening defence and deterrence.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

No, I think, the external factors should not be dismiised - for there are strong interdependencies with internal scenario.

PRC (or even maybe the West) helping SL to finish off the LTTE may not be that much of a blessing for India. The issue has now been shifted on to Indian shoulders because of the "Tamil" factor. Now, more than ever, pressure will mount on India to create the "Eelam". Do not think that the external interests that promoted and maintained LTTE for a long time, are going to give it up. It will also be a great screw to squeeze India, and maintain uneasiness in relationship with SL. The Eelam question will be a thorn. Sometime ago, there was some discussion on BR about the possible links between top LTTE leadership and EJ's or Christianity in general.

PRC+US collaboration need not be obvious or overt. International relattions always have components where both competition and collaboration take place simultaneously on different aspects. We have to look for how proposals, moves, suggestions, demands affect us, and the obvious desired outcomes from thos moves, to see patterns of similarity or collaboration. For example, a pressure to "resolve Kashmir" issue in terms of "more autonomy/greater access to POK" will be a common interest of PRC+USA, and here since it benefits both they can collaborate. Increased presence of PRC in Nepal however is a problem for the West, because western presence in Nepal is a valuable listening post to watch over both India and PRC, and here the west will subtly try to sabotage PRC - better if they can manage to put up Indian face as the cover to do so.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Atri »

Pranav wrote:Brihaspati ji, I think India needs to worry about its own independence - too many internal issues. Nationalist forces in India are on the backfoot and the integrity of the nationalist leadership is itself in doubt. So issues like Tibet, Myanmar etc can be on the backburner. I would even say that PRC did a favour to India by helping GoSL finish the LTTE.

The best thing would be for India to keep a low profile, mind its own business, while strengthening defence and deterrence.
INC (dynasty) is comparatively quite nationalistic organization. The Indian nation since 1947, however it is, is mostly built by INC. So, they have plenty of invested interests and efforts and memories in this country. They won't let it down consciously. What is INC (dynasty) without India? Nothing..

They won't purposefully sell the country to wolves because if they do so, they will be the biggest losers.

They are not followers of Hindutva because, Hindutva is not popular. If it becomes a popular force, INC will embrace it with utmost vehemence, just to protect its presence and hence its interests vested in this country they built.

The biggest stake holders in India is the dynasty. Dynasty will do anything to maintain its interests, which is whole nation. The dynasty won't do anything which will compromise their position of power in independent India.

I would like to quote first law of motion by Newton.

An object continues to be in state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by some unbalanced force.

Here, the object is India under dynasty. They will move in the direction of the force which nullifies and overcomes the equilibrium of competing forces and moves their vector sum in its own favour. This is the case with nationalism and Hindutva. This is the case with influence of KGB, CIA, Mossad and PRC.

They will sleep with anybody, but continue their state of uniform motion and maintain their identity and presence strong at all costs.

Vajpayee (nuclear-1998) and PVNR-MMS jodi (liberalization-1991) provided the radical internal unbalancing forces which changed the trajectory of motion of Bhaarat, thus shifting the equilibrium of global forces more towards India's favour. Now that the trajectory is fixed, the dynasty will sleep with anybody to ensure that the trajectory remains as it is fixed in post 1998-post 2001 world.

I am glad that communists never got such a chance to introduce a defining change in trajectory of India.

Finally, I do not know, whether Raul and Bianca are capable enough of introducing self-sustained changes in India's trajectory like Indira could or Nehru could. It seems that the primary emphasis of dynasty under the rule of Rajmata is merely sustainance and nothing more. So, I guess they will follow the first law of motion stated above without trying anything radical.

I am not sure whether these two kids know India enough to take huge decisions which will shift the equilibrium globally in the favour of Bhaaratiya civilization and strengthen their position in India similar to Vikramaditya of Gupta Dynasty. If they can do this and stay in the power-equation long enough, India will definitely will benefit. I doubt though...

If they are as ambitious and power-hungry as Samudragupta OR Indira was, then it is very good for Bhaarat. If they are as self-centred as their mother and care about nothing else but narrow self-interests of survival even after the situation is in their favour, then India needs a Pushyamitra Sunga to overthrow the stupid Maurya and repeal the invading Greeks(the west and central asians)
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:PRC definitely already have nuclear devices placed around India, directly under its own name, all along occupied territories in India and ocupied Tibet, but also by proxy (as TSP nukes) in North Kashmir where they are best placed to strike at Northern India. They are less likely to use the eastern sector for this, since the actual Indian damages can be dubious because of population densities, topological features and more importantly the collateral effects on sympathetic allies like Nepal, BD, and Myanmar. These are mor elikely to be areas for attempted irregular and regular incursions militarily.

This sort of press outings are meant to provide sufficient threats to alter perceptions, especially in public opnion and politics of more open countries, not to take measures to counter PRC buildup. India has to build up its own counter nuke ring around PRC anyway - to assure the Chinese that MAD is not something India will play shrinking violet to. But to do this, India also need dominate IO and make its presence felt in the Pacific or China Sea. The best way to tie up PRC is to place a nuke delivery capable fleet and submarines around the eastern coast of China.

We do not want to destroy China's populations. But we want to dissolve the CCP and liberate Tibet. We do not want Chinese presence anymore in the immediate vicinity of India, occupying Indian territories and helping the most virulent of terrorist organizations like the PA or Talebs, orpromoting anti-Indian violent sentiments in the neighbours.

A start shoudl have been made in India rooting for restoration of democracy in Myanmar, and highlight the connection and role of the PRC in bolstering the junta. The trick is to draw out PRC more in SE Asia, and engage it and expose its role in essentially imperilaist takeovers of the smaller nations for their natural resources.

That comment explains the US Adm asking for PRC participation in Malabar exercises and them being comfortable with PRC in Indian OCean while India is not.

So what PRC is worried about is the very strategy that Jupiter suggests being implemented by India.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shubho »

Pranav wrote:
brihaspati wrote: We do not want to destroy China's populations. But we want to dissolve the CCP and liberate Tibet. We do not want Chinese presence anymore in the immediate vicinity of India, occupying Indian territories and helping the most virulent of terrorist organizations like the PA or Talebs, orpromoting anti-Indian violent sentiments in the neighbours.

A start shoudl have been made in India rooting for restoration of democracy in Myanmar, and highlight the connection and role of the PRC in bolstering the junta. The trick is to draw out PRC more in SE Asia, and engage it and expose its role in essentially imperilaist takeovers of the smaller nations for their natural resources.
Brihaspati ji, I think India needs to worry about its own independence - too many internal issues. Nationalist forces in India are on the backfoot and the integrity of the nationalist leadership is itself in doubt. So issues like Tibet, Myanmar etc can be on the backburner. I would even say that PRC did a favour to India by helping GoSL finish the LTTE.

The best thing would be for India to keep a low profile, mind its own business, while strengthening defence and deterrence.
You forgot to add YINDU before "Nationalist forces"

The bottom line is... please don't start Internal Politics discussions here. There will be tons of rhetoric and more counter rhetoric. Every body living in India (99.99%) are as much Nationalist and patriotic as your so called 'Yindu Nationalists' :rotfl:
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by amritk »

Chiron wrote:
An object continues to be in state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by some unbalanced force.
I believe the more precise definition of the first law is "An object continues to be in state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by some external unbalanced force."
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Arjun »

Chiron wrote: INC (dynasty) is comparatively quite nationalistic organization. The Indian nation since 1947, however it is, is mostly built by INC. So, they have plenty of invested interests and efforts and memories in this country. They won't let it down consciously. What is INC (dynasty) without India? Nothing..
Chiron, INC is likely to be quite nationalistic if you define nationalism in terms of territorial integrity, security and power play. Some definitions of nationalism also include a commitment to culture and demographics. That is where you will find the real dissonance cropping up between the supporters of BJP and INC on this forum.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rudradev »

shubho wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Brihaspati ji, I think India needs to worry about its own independence - too many internal issues. Nationalist forces in India are on the backfoot and the integrity of the nationalist leadership is itself in doubt. So issues like Tibet, Myanmar etc can be on the backburner. I would even say that PRC did a favour to India by helping GoSL finish the LTTE.

The best thing would be for India to keep a low profile, mind its own business, while strengthening defence and deterrence.
You forgot to add YINDU before "Nationalist forces"

The bottom line is... please don't start Internal Politics discussions here. There will be tons of rhetoric and more counter rhetoric. Every body living in India (99.99%) are as much Nationalist and patriotic as your so called 'Yindu Nationalists' :rotfl:
What a superbly proficient troll this is. First he deliberately creates an issue out of thin air by imposing the "Yindu" word on the neutral statement Pranav had made... thus, bringing in the angle of India's internal politics himself.

Then he lectures everyone else not to "start Internal Politics discussions here"... as if anyone was doing that before he arrived.

Bravo. Must be taking lessons directly from Islamabad (or 10 Janpath).
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by bart »

shubho wrote:Link
China Institute for International Strategic Studies and the China Defense Science and Technology Information Center argue for at least a moderate buildup of its nuclear forces. China’s deployment along the border with India has traditionally been insufficient and the nuclear tests signal that India intends to create a significant new nuclear threat to China. If India deploys weapons aimed at China, they conclude, China must respond with new deployments aimed at India.

If India does not deploy its Agni missiles and if the U.S. and Japanese interest in deploying national or theater missile defenses along China’s eastern shores remains just talk, China will likely continue with its current, relatively modest plans to modernize its nuclear forces.
Gurus, any idea if they have now deployed those horrifying MTs of Thermo Nuclear Devices towards Delhi, Kolkata, Mumbai ??
YES! They have been deployed.

My local fast food vendor confirmed this to me while he was cooking up gobi manchurian and flied lice.

Now, if it is ok by you, I will go back to cowering in my dhoti, horrified by your MTs ot Thermo Nuclear Devices aimed at us poor SDREs.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Atri »

Arjun wrote:
Chiron wrote: INC (dynasty) is comparatively quite nationalistic organization. The Indian nation since 1947, however it is, is mostly built by INC. So, they have plenty of invested interests and efforts and memories in this country. They won't let it down consciously. What is INC (dynasty) without India? Nothing..
Chiron, INC is likely to be quite nationalistic if you define nationalism in terms of territorial integrity, security and power play. Some definitions of nationalism also include a commitment to culture and demographics. That is where you will find the real dissonance cropping up between the supporters of BJP and INC on this forum.
Arjun ji,

I don't know about lack of cultural commitment of INC as compared to BJP... Because, the role played by PVNR during Babri demolition is quite well known.. It was as if, if PVNR let it happen by turning a blind eye towards entire episode while it was happening.. The Shilanyaas of Ram-temple in Ayodhya was allowed by Rajiv Gandhi himself.. I guess, they were trying to appease Hindus as well, in that period.

Yes, present day picture, under the regime of Rajmata and her open allegiance towards Roman-Catholic church and many other shady connections unearthed since assassination of RG (senior) creates a foggy picture. This is furthermore alarming because the primary emphasis of Rajmata is not conquest, but survival at all costs. In such desperations, one tends to make selfish compromises without caring to look at larger good.

Any king or dynasty which is weakened and threatened with extinction tends to play any cards possible to ensure their survival, just like Aambhi did with Alexander. And if that becomes habit then, even when times are favourable, such cautious behaviour of sucking up to previous benefactors continue, which is not good for the nation.

Now, times are quite favourable for Dynasty. If Gandhis continue to suck up to their western benefactors and fail to rise up to the occasion, then they will prove that they are true descendants of Brihadratha Maurya; that their time is up and some Pushyamitra Sunga is waiting to supplant them. If they rise up to the occasion and outwit and outmatch their string-holders from outside and try to gain complete control over India's polity by uprooting the foreign influence, then they will show that they are true descendants of Samudragupta and Vikramaditya.

In short, it is time to see, whether they have the balls to take charge of India completely in their hands or not !!!!
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

brihaspati wrote:No, I think, the external factors should not be dismiised - for there are strong interdependencies with internal scenario.
....
Do not think that the external interests that promoted and maintained LTTE for a long time, are going to give it up. It will also be a great screw to squeeze India, and maintain uneasiness in relationship with SL. The Eelam question will be a thorn. Sometime ago, there was some discussion on BR about the possible links between top LTTE leadership and EJ's or Christianity in general.
I agree external factors are important - but in my opinion, PRC's major problems are with the West, and the interests of the PRC are not necessarily conflicting with India's interests.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

No, I am talking about nationalist forces, irrespective of which party they belong to. There are anti-national forces in the BJP as well. For example, there are credible claims that Brajesh Mishra bailed out Rahul Gandhi when he was arrested in Boston with his Colombian girlfriend carrying a huge amount of unaccounted-for cash. (http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2005/ ... ed-at.html)
shubho wrote:
You forgot to add YINDU before "Nationalist forces"

The bottom line is... please don't start Internal Politics discussions here. There will be tons of rhetoric and more counter rhetoric. Every body living in India (99.99%) are as much Nationalist and patriotic as your so called 'Yindu Nationalists' :rotfl:
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by raji »

Regardless of which side you are on, Sri Lanka government's dogged struggle against the stubborn resistance put up by the Tigers, can be a good political and military model (not necessarily military strategy or tactic wise) to follow for the Indians in J&K. We all would do good to study SL's political strategy over the years to glean how they were able to leverage Pak, China, India and even BD and Nepal, not to mention Norway, Massa and other European powers, to ultimately decimate the Tigers, despite being a small country, insignificant to the West and at least to start off with, having a very weak hand to play with.

Normally, I bristle at the term "Chanikyan" which has been beaten to death on this forum, but perhaps, we will discover that the strategy and tactics pursued by the SL government can aptly be termed........ Chanikyan
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

Chiron wrote: Yes, present day picture, under the regime of Rajmata and her open allegiance towards Roman-Catholic church and many other shady connections unearthed since assassination of RG (senior) creates a foggy picture. This is furthermore alarming because the primary emphasis of Rajmata is not conquest, but survival at all costs. In such desperations, one tends to make selfish compromises without caring to look at larger good.

Any king or dynasty which is weakened and threatened with extinction tends to play any cards possible to ensure their survival, just like Aambhi did with Alexander. And if that becomes habit then, even when times are favourable, such cautious behaviour of sucking up to previous benefactors continue, which is not good for the nation.
Chiron ji, the issue is to what extent the ruling klan are puppets of external forces. For example, Sonia, as per very credible sources, has a history of being on KGB payroll. Further, the billions that the Gandhis have allegedly kept in Western banks (http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 45#p668545) would only make them further vulnerable to foreign blackmailers.

One worries that this regime would act more as "East India Congress" rather than "Indian National Congress". For example, this regime has been responsible for a one lakh crore spectrum allocation scam. As per the CAG, fifty thousand crores are missing from government treasury and they have been funneled into the coffers of unknown NGOs (http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?656005).

I sincerely hope that at least the RBI can remain free of the influence of the Klan. Once you allow manipulation of monetary policy, it can be used to facilitate transfer of wealth and literally bleed a nation dry, as happened to the US in the Great Depression.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Sooner or later, the effects of such economic bleeding tell upon the general economy of the country. The effects of the British "bleeding" began to tell from the first world war, on the Indian economy, and intensified in the interwar years. The effects on the continuity of the British regime in India, is there in the history.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Sanku »

Arjun wrote: Chiron, INC is likely to be quite nationalistic if you define nationalism in terms of territorial integrity, security and power play.
No Arjun it starts failing right here itself.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Atri »

Pranav wrote:Chiron ji, the issue is to what extent the ruling klan are puppets of external forces. For example, Sonia, as per very credible sources, has a history of being on KGB payroll.
Pranav ji, I am just extending this hypothesis further..

What do all men of power desire?? ... More power.. absolute power..

INC under the klan of rajmata has behaved more like Sicilian Mafia who are more like business-minded mercenaries than power-hungry politicians. Even if they are under considerable extent of foreign forces today, how willing are they to overthrow those shackles and amass power in their hands, instead of indirect foreign hands, is the question.

Why was Rajmata forced to become a puppet of external forces? It was most probably after assassination of IG, when RG (sr) was forced into politics out of his peaceful life. It has been a fight for survival for Rajmata and her kids since then. The complex geopolitical factors caused death of her husband as well. Whom was she threatened by? Senior Kaangress leaders who wished the power for themselves, perhaps by competing interests of CIA, MI6 and KGB in 1980's. After assassination of RG (Sr), she went into complete oblivion and took herself and her children away from Indian political scenario.

For some reasons, she entered national political scene. The reasons are

1. Increasing clout of BJP and Vajpayee.
2. Hence need of INC to invoke the name of Gandhi dynasty to maintain their political presence and power.

Why did Rajmata accept this offer is the biggest enigma for me. She knew what mess she was getting into. But, perhaps meanwhile she had perhaps renewed the old contacts and built some new ones (both internal and external) which became the powerful friends of her dynasty. Without this support, she would never have entered the power-mess of Indian politics which was experiencing a major shift away from INC and towards BJP and Hindutva.

This leads us to further question - Who does not want Bhaarat to shift towards Hindutva which will rejuvenate the dormant Bhaaratiya civilization and lead it to resurgence??

One has to understand that Hindutva==Bhaaratiyatva. It is not the jaagir of BJP alone, although in given political scenario, it is BJP alone which actively supports the principle. The external agents must have having their moles in BJP as well, but not in Hindutva. This is because Hindutva, which is same as Bhaaratiyatva, cannot tolerate the influence of foreign civilization which is detrimental to its own rise and resurgence. This is because Hindutva is not exclusive to BJP. I am stressing on this point time and again.

Anyways, taking the story further.... Rajmata, once she entered the political scenario of India, the magic of her dynasty slowly started working. The old IG-designed system was renewed and old investments, political apointees were called upon to do the bidding of the dynasty. Why did they choose to do the bidding after so many years of dynasty's absence in active politics? Either out of sheer loyalty (very unlikely) or something convinced them that old times might be coming again and it is in their best interests to answer the call of dynasty.

This leads us to one more question - What/Who can be influential and powerful enough to bring out old servants out of very long unpaid hibernation?

This coupled with India-Shining Fiasco of Vajpayee govt, led to Rajmata coming to power in 2004. Although, with the help of communists.

Indian communists are class-apart. In terms of following the principles and cadre based organizational discipline, they are equivalent to RSS which shows similar discipline and organization. But, it is very difficult to understand their loyalties. It is easy to banish them as Chinese agents in post cold-war era. But, even if we assume that they are nationalists and wish sincerely for the good of India, the point where they deviate from RSS or in subtle sense INC is that they view India strictly as a political nation-state which came into existence on 15th August 1947 and not as a Bhaarat-a continuously existent civilization-state.

Their ideas of "things good for India" are for this apparent nation-state and not for the more real and subtle civilization-state. Hence, when they advocate something, which in their opinion is ultimate good for India, many times is not. Furthermore, communism, just like Islam, does not believe in national boundaries and advocates universal brotherhood of the workers and communists. This makes them ideal dissemination centres for Chinese propaganda and interests.

Anyways, taking the story further ahead.... Last 5 years have been interesting to observe. The drastic changes in geopolitics of globe and region have started to force upon the dynasty to execute certain steps which will bring India strategically away from communism and socialism. The Indian Chanakyas in MEA and other ministries must have seen this as an opportunity to increase the clout of India as well. It is the "Ganga Beh rahi hain, haath dho lo" attitude which was displayed by MMS during the entire Indo-US nuke deal process. MMS govt showed the shrewdness of a girl flirting with 2-3 boyfriends simultaneously and extracting things which she perceives as goodies.

Again, it is not only corruption, it is also a matter of perception. Different people perceive different things as good for them (or their country) or bad for them (or their country). These differences in perceptions are exploited by external pezzonovante for corrupting the individuals. Few of them, who do not believe in Dhaarmic-ness of the means, and end justifies the means, do not mind accepting the money so that they can do some good for their nation. Of course, many of the other corrupt guys are out and out basturds :P and sons-of-bitches who do it just for money and do not give a phuck about anything else.

The results in these elections have shown that Rajmata is at the zenith of her power and she is as safe as she can ever be along with all her investments. The point now is, how will she and hence the kids, will move ahead. As I have elucidated earlier, the KGB stuff was need of Rajmata during her Vanvaas. Now that she is safely and soundly back in her palace at Indraprastha without dogged pursuit of commies, will the dynasty show the guts to slowly eliminate the foreign influences or not?

This is based on initial assumption that all men of power desire more power-absolute power. Raaja is the root of Raashtra. Things which are good for rashtra, are good for raja as well. Every raja desires that his influence is supreme in his rashtra and if he has slightest ambition, he works towards achieving that goal. If Raja is like Nero, then he cannot comprehend this basic Raaj-Dharma. It remains to be seen whether the kids behave like Aambhi-Nero or understand the Raaj-Dharma and start the eradication of foreign influence slowly and steadily.

One more interesting speculation. MMS also seems to be a Mahatma Vidur. Does he have anything up his sleeve that will be a pleasant surprise?

The example of transition of power from Nanda dynasty to Maurya dynasty and from Maurya dynasty to Shunga dynasty is extremely pertinent in this case of modern India.

Chanakya used external aid, influence to overthrow Nanda dynasty. He even made Parvateshwara of Kekay (much famed Porus who fought Alexander) as Chandragupta's partner in Magadha's throne. Both Chandragupta and Parvateshwara were 50-50 kings of Magadha for one year after which Parvateshwara was found mysteriously dead - stabbed by a dancer girl. With this move, all the external influences (which helped Chandragupta Maurya to usurp power of Magadha for their own selfish gains) were eliminated and Chandragupta-Chanakya slowly started amassing total power of Magadh in their hands. This included the cleansing of erstwhile corrupt officials which were used by both of them to usurp the power. This is scenario one of Bhaarat's future.

Few generations later, Bactrian greek king Menander invaded India. Greeks which could not cross punjab under Alexander, conquered land all the way up to Mathura due to various social, religious, political factors. The king in Pataliputra was doing nothing, in spite of such pressing aggression. His Chankian C-i-C Pushyamitra Sunga staged a coup and abolished Maurya dynasty, established Sunga dynasty, rallied the army and defeated Menander and drove him beyond Indus and amassed total power in his hands and performed Ashwamedha.. This is scenario two of Bhaarat's future.

In either cases, Bhaarat's interests are saved. They always will be.
Last edited by Atri on 21 May 2009 21:25, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Arjun »

Sanku wrote:
Arjun wrote: Chiron, INC is likely to be quite nationalistic if you define nationalism in terms of territorial integrity, security and power play.
No Arjun it starts failing right here itself.
I know we haven't seen evidence of this to the extent that folks on this forum would want - but like Chiron said, on these counts I don't see a motive for the Dynasty to be weak.

On the counts of culture and demographics - there can be scope for speculation on motives but not on the ones I mentioned.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Alright, this is getting really silly and people are losing a lot of credibility.

What are these foreign interests that INC is so entrenched in?

Which countries are pulling the strings and what evidence do you have to support it? Seriously, I can't believe this is becoming widespread on BRF.
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