Indian Missile Technology Discussion

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 14 May 2009 20:18

From the link above

After the post-mission analysis, a source said that the tactical missile had covered about 15 km and hit two simulated targets in a span of 40 seconds before dropping into the Bay of Bengal.

Does that mean the missile hit two targets in one firing run. Also, i had a doubt regarding tail chase mode, does it mean the missile flies backwards from a fighter to attack its pursuer.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 May 2009 21:03

suryag wrote:From the link above
After the post-mission analysis, a source said that the tactical missile had covered about 15 km and hit two simulated targets in a span of 40 seconds before dropping into the Bay of Bengal.
Does that mean the missile hit two targets in one firing run. Also, i had a doubt regarding tail chase mode, does it mean the missile flies backwards from a fighter to attack its pursuer.

The missile’s dual mode guidance has been fully proved when it was fired from the ground at an imaginary target.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2009 21:25

tail chase - missile is fired at a receding target from ~a 6-o-clock position. this is the mode wherein it has the least effective range.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 14 May 2009 22:08

Why does the ToI article keep mentioning that Prithvi is the only operational Indian Missile as of now , just because Agni has not been fully inducted does not mean that not a single was is in service right now.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 23:16

NRao - same question that I had asked a couple of days ago. How can you test seekers when the target is imaginary? Perhaps, a maneuvering flight profile was fed (pre-programmed or real time) to the missile and it was tested whether its electronics and guidance could kill the target in spite of the maneuver. Once again, this would only test the electronics and propulsion but not the seeker performance itself

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 23:24

Srivastav wrote:I have a question for the learned saar's here

For e.g. lets take an AAM with a publicised range of 100 kms. Now does mean that the missile can go from a static point A to a Point B 100 kms away or does that 100 Km range depends on the 'n' speed of the moving launch vehicle. Also does variables like altitude, head wind etc matter.

I was just wondering if the 80 km range for astra remains same even if we launch it from the ground or do we get that 80 Km range only when the aircraft is moving at 'n' speed and suitable conditions.

The reason iam asking this is because i wanted to know if astra in its current form (without adding another stage to it) could act as a MR-SAM of 70 - 80 km range.

Range varies with altitude, mode of engagement and whether the target is maneuvering. I had posted on this in the previous page - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 86#p665586

There was an earlier article from Chindu that talked about Astra's range at different altitudes. http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 131340.htm

Though the exact range of today's trial has not been disclosed, scientists are working to ensure that 'Astra' performs effectively at different altitudes - one cruising at an altitude of 15 km with 90 to 110 km range, another at an altitude up to 30,000 ft, having a range of 44 km and the third at sea level altitude with a range of 30 km.

There has been some discussions on re-using Astra as an SR-SAM (doesnt have range for MRSAM at ground level) similar to what was done with Python and Derby. But with the Maitri program with MBDA, I dont know where things stand. Perhaps some of the technologies may be re-used.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 May 2009 20:31

Agni-II test launch postponed

The test-launch of surface-to-surface intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) Agni-II, that was scheduled between Tuesday and Thursday, has been postponed to next week. Sources at the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea said the test, considered a user trial, will be carried out after the counting of votes

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 May 2009 21:58

Only in India....

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 May 2009 00:05

Gerard wrote:Agni-II test launch postponed
The test-launch of surface-to-surface intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) Agni-II, that was scheduled between Tuesday and Thursday, has been postponed to next week. Sources at the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea said the test, considered a user trial, will be carried out after the counting of votes

The source further said that usually a missile is tested after the DRDO scientists receive green signal from the Cabinet Committee on Security Affairs and then clearance from the Lab Authorisation Board of DRDO. ‘‘If the scientists get ‘go ahead’ signal from the Cabinet, then the missile may be tested from the Orissa coast anytime between May 19 and 21.’’ The Agni-V, capable of hitting targets at a distance of 5,000-km, would derive most of its sub-systems from Agni-II though they would need sufficient scaling. Besides, there is a plan to develop Agni-IV as an intermediate step between Agni-III and Agni-V, said a defence scientist.

The Hun Chinese Panwalla drinking chai in Dhaka and Rangoon is highly confused and disappointed. Reading his Inglis dictionary to figure out:

1) if this Agni-II test is really a Agni-II test
2) if this is a Agni-II user test or an engineering test launch by Yindoo scientists
3) how will Agni-V, derive most of its sub-systems from Agni-II ? What part of Agni-II will need scaling and what will not?
4) What will Agni-IV have w.r.t. Agni-III and not have w.r.t. Agni-V if it is an intermediate step between Agni-III and Agni-V?

Can never understand these muddlehead Yindians.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 May 2009 00:37

Then, in the middle of ALL this confusion they have an election, which cannot decide on a PM!! Wait till the Roman numbers get into the 40-50 range.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 May 2009 00:38

Very weird indeed - in the entire article, there is no mention of IA, which is supposed to "independently" be doing the test. Maybe DRDO scientists will watch but should ideally do no more. Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye.

Also, sentences like the following are always vexing:

‘‘We have the capability to go in for even longer range missiles but it is the political leadership which has to take a decision. With the present scenario we are capable of developing the inter-continental ballistic missiles which can hit targets beyond the range of 10,000-km,’’ a defence scientist maintained.

What's the deal with our political leadership (or lack of it)? Its as if we are embarrassed to call ourselves an "aspiring superpower". After Agni-5, we will have Agni-6 with 6000KM range

I am waiting for the day when we can lob 1 ton over 10000KM ....

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 16 May 2009 01:25

sum wrote:Only in India....

1) Yindoo fortune-appam says: "Not all tests are nerd-e-tests, some are mard-e-tests". Counting of votes and the subsequent kumbh-mela (complete with a naked Amar Singh doing the canon-ball into a pool of coins) is a time of instability. If someone with furry nuts up north decide to do mischief at that time, we have a rakkit ready and pointing.
2) better excuse than "awaiting some third-rate SD amirkhan's travel itenerary approval by POTUS"

so yeah, "only in India" and other emoticons....

Prem Kumar wrote: I am waiting for the day when we can lob 1 ton over 10000KM ....

you will have to wait till we can do time-travel back into the past. Of course, unless you want to send elderly Fatboys that distance? Again a long wait as we are SDRE

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 May 2009 01:48

Yes - I have seen Arun's range vs payload graph. And I do realize that Agni-3 has ICBM range at the appropriate payload (per the graph, a 600 Kg payload would do a 10K marathon). That's why I asked for 1 ton payload over 10K KM. That's roughly 3 MIRV warheads weighing 300 Kg each.

Wouldnt it be great if we can park ATV below the African coast ready to drop these 3 babies on Shanghai if need be

And of course, why we are not doing so seems to be purely political, nothing technological. That's the vexing part.

bijit · Post by **bijit** » 16 May 2009 11:26

Prem Kumar wrote:Yes - I have seen Arun's range vs payload graph. And I do realize that Agni-3 has ICBM range at the appropriate payload (per the graph, a 600 Kg payload would do a 10K marathon). That's why I asked for 1 ton payload over 10K KM. That's roughly 3 MIRV warheads weighing 300 Kg each.

Wouldnt it be great if we can park ATV below the African coast ready to drop these 3 babies on Shanghai if need be

And of course, why we are not doing so seems to be purely political, nothing technological. That's the vexing part.

Why do we need to park it below the African coast, when a protected bastion in Bay of Bengal is more secure, closer, and easier to implement.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 16 May 2009 13:53

The Hun Chinese Panwalla drinking chai in Dhaka and Rangoon is highly confused and disappointed. Reading his Inglis dictionary to figure out:

1) if this Agni-II test is really a Agni-II test
2) if this is a Agni-II user test or an engineering test launch by Yindoo scientists
3) how will Agni-V, derive most of its sub-systems from Agni-II ? What part of Agni-II will need scaling and what will not?
4) What will Agni-IV have w.r.t. Agni-III and not have w.r.t. Agni-V if it is an intermediate step between Agni-III and Agni-V?

Can never understand these muddlehead Yindians.

may be agni 2 is really not a agni 2 but a agni 5 in scaled down version agni 2 with composite 3rdstage ringlaser gyro and mirv with decoys
it will validate mirv re entry behicle
it will validate composite 3rd stage
it will validate manoeuvrings rvs and decoys

taht is why you need to be sure of nature of govt before testing

agni 2 is inducted and you dont need a clear national policy confirmation policy before going user trial

and finally put all the new goodies on agni 3 and get agni 5

just some silly village Indians thought

agni 4 is not required

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 16 May 2009 13:56

I am waiting for the day when we can lob 1 ton over 10000KM

we can any day -be sure of that

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 May 2009 20:10

Arun_S wrote:
So what is to be tested in Agni-II that will pave the way for Agni-V?

The only answer I can think of is the Agni-II is testing the SUM100-8 stage that will go into Agni-V. By that reasoning Agni-V will be a Agni-3C or Agni-3SL configuration.

See below:
..Clicky

..Clicky
I have a feeling that this A-2 test will for the first time be retiring the old style RV-Mk1 and Mk2 (that is 4.2 meter long), replacing it with a 3rd stage SUM100-8 (that also goes into Agni-3/4/5) atop which is the RV-Mk2A or Mk4 (again a new design that went into Shourya and Agni-3/4/5); thus the physical envelop of the missile is same as classical Agni-2. An upgrade of the avionics to bring it upto the new baseline as seen in Shourya, Prithvi and Agni-3.

Instead of SUM100-8 a longer SUM100-1200 stage (1.0meter dia and 1,200 kg propellant) is more likely.

JMT.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 17 May 2009 02:44

http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/17/stories ... 181000.htm

Army getting set to launch Agni-II

T.S. Subramanian

CHENNAI: Preparations are under way for the launch of India’s ballistic missile, Agni-II, from the Wheeler Island, off Dhamra village on the Orissa coast, on May 19. The Army will conduct the launch with the missile technologists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) present as “observers.”

This will be the fourth launch of Agni-II, which can carry nuclear warheads over a distance of 2,500 km. The Army has already deployed Agni-II in its arsenal.

DRDO officials said this launch was to “prove the effectiveness of the system and the readiness of the user [Army]” in firing the missile. Since the Army had already inducted the missile into its arsenal, it would pick an Agni-II at random from a clutch of missiles and fire it to test its effectiveness. DRDO officials called it “a repeat launch” to provide training to the Army personnel. “It is entirely the Army’s show. We will only help them in case of any technical issue,” they said. The missile would lift off from a rail-mobile launcher.

Agni-II is a two-stage surface-to-surface missile, powered by solid propellants. It weighs 17 tonnes and can carry a nuclear warhead weighing one tonne. The missile is 20 metres long. It has been designed and developed by the Advanced Systems Laboratory, a unit of the DRDO, in Hyderabad.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 17 May 2009 12:09

Exactly what I though is accurate , the Times of India must be reprimanded or at least reminded of it's responsibility in defence reporting when it keeps harping on about the Prithvi being the only missile deployed in our Arsenal.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 17 May 2009 13:37

On a side note :- I think that LRSAM=MRSAM=Barak-8 would be a formidable Air to air missile, if adapted in that role!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 17 May 2009 15:08

^^ Has it ever been done before? I do not know of any SAM modified to be used as an a2a missile.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 17 May 2009 20:23

Parijat Gaur wrote:^^ Has it ever been done before? I do not know of any SAM modified to be used as an a2a missile.

Germany is converting it's IRIS-T A2A missile to IDAS SAM (sub launched). In case of Barak-8 the opposite will have to be done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDAS_(missile)

John · Post by **John** » 17 May 2009 21:12

Raj Malhotra wrote:On a side note :- I think that LRSAM=MRSAM=Barak-8 would be a formidable Air to air missile, if adapted in that role!

The missile is too large to be a A2A missile it is about the size of Aster 30, sea sparrow is missile that has been used on the both purpose. Few other A2A missile such as Derby, AMRAAM, MICA have been modified as SAM.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 May 2009 00:43

'User-trial' of surface-to-surface Agni-II missile on May 19

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 May 2009 23:46

If its a user trial what it means if that IA has inducted the missile and it should be routine flight and not a path breaking technology demonstrator.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 19 May 2009 00:03

Ramana, IIRC the last test fire of Agni-2 in 2004 was a contained test fire with army participation. I think this is a batch test/ user trial with minimal DRDO input.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 May 2009 01:18

Gerard wrote:'User-trial' of surface-to-surface Agni-II missile on May 19

The test of Agni-II, which weighs 17 tonnes and can carry a 1.15-tonne payload or warhead, will be undertaken from the test range at Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast.

It is not often when GoI releases such accurate numbers.

What nuclear payload configuration yields this final payload weight of 1,150Kg ?

Has Agni-II become a MIRV carrier with 2 or 3 sardine packed MIRV in tandem in the 4.2 m long envelope?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 19 May 2009 01:32

Arun_S wrote:It is not often when GoI releases such accurate numbers.

What nuclear payload configuration yields this final payload weight of 1,150Kg ?

Has Agni-II become a MIRV carrier with 2 or 3 sardine packed MIRV in tandem in the 4.2 m long envelope?

Arun-saar
Is it that or is it ~250KT FBF warhead which would be ~900 Kg ? Certainly a bit more credible that TN warheads (unless GOI goes for a big dhamaaka - not happening for the next 5 years).

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 May 2009 02:44

Anujan wrote:Arun-saar
Is it that or is it ~250KT FBF warhead which would be ~900 Kg ? Certainly a bit more credible that TN warheads (unless GOI goes for a big dhamaaka - not happening for the next 5 years).

Very true.
I knew that the FBF warhead weighs ~1,000 Kg, so 1,150 Kg is a good fix on that package.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 19 May 2009 03:25

What is the evidence for this presumed FBF?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 19 May 2009 10:58

What happened to the Agni-II test?

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 19 May 2009 11:03

vavinash wrote:What happened to the Agni-II test?

India successfully tests nuclear-capable Agni II missile

The surface-to-surface missile with a range of over 2,000 km was test fired from the Wheeler’s Island near Dhamara in the district of Bhadrak, some 150 km from here at 10.06 a.m.

b_karan · Post by **b_karan** » 19 May 2009 11:44

India on Tuesday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable 'Agni-II' missile with a strike range of upto 3,000 kms from a launch pad off Orissa's coast.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... le/462371/

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 19 May 2009 11:53

b_karan wrote:India on Tuesday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable 'Agni-II' missile with a strike range of upto 3,000 kms from a launch pad off Orissa's coast.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... le/462371/

From the link:

The indigenously built surface-to-surface Agni-I missile has a strike range of 1500 km, while Agni-II missile has capability of hitting targets at ranges between 2500 to 3000 kms with a 1000 kg pay-load.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 May 2009 12:05

Nitesh wrote:
b_karan wrote:India on Tuesday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable 'Agni-II' missile with a strike range of upto 3,000 kms from a launch pad off Orissa's coast.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... le/462371/
From the link:

The indigenously built surface-to-surface Agni-I missile has a strike range of 1500 km, while Agni-II missile has capability of hitting targets at ranges between 2500 to 3000 kms with a 1000 kg pay-load.

3000Kg with 1000 kg is not surprising. As Sanjay Badri Maharaj has often said that Dr Kalam had stated 3,300 Km with 1000 kg payload. And my own senior sources involved with the program have confirmed missile data on BR missile page; except those of TN weapons.

BTW when I wrote the BR article on Agni-II not many believed the real Agni-range I stated below after much analysis and ROCKSIM. It is a different matter now, leading Indian researchers use ROCKSIM

Look at Agn-II range for a medium yield fission / boosted fission bum weighing 500 kg.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2009 12:17

What happend to Agni-2AT then ? If this is the routine Agni-2 batch testing

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 May 2009 12:18

India test-fires nuclear-capable Agni-II missile: PTI

Balasore (Orissa), May 19 (PTI) India today successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable 'Agni-II' missile with a strike range of upto 3,000 kms from a launch pad off Orissa's coast.
The test of the indigenously built Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile missile was carried out from a mobile launcher at about 1006 hrs from launch pad-4 of Integrated Test Range at Wheelers Island near Dhamra, about 80 kms from here, defence sources said.

It was a user trial conducted by the army and scientists from Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) were present to provide the necessary logistical support, the sources said.

The trial of the sophisticated missile was successful and scientists would conduct a detailed analysis.

The missile after three successful trials by DRDO is ready for production. "We have completely developed systems for such variant of missiles," a senior defence scientist said. A special missile group has been raised in the army to handle such weapon.

The state-owned Bharat Dynamics Ltd is the nodal agency for production of Agni-I and Agni-II missiles.

The indigenously built surface-to-surface Agni-I missile has a strike range of 1500 km, while Agni-II missile has capability of hitting targets at ranges between 2500 to 3000 kms with a 1000 kg pay-load. PTI

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 May 2009 12:20

Austin wrote:What happend to Agni-2AT then ? If this is the routine Agni-2 batch testing

The team headed by Tesse Thomas will deliver when ready. Patience my friend

Till then we can draw solace from this image:

New improved 1.2m diameter rocket case of maraging steel being handed over to M. Natarajan [Source: The HINDU, 10-Nov-06]

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 May 2009 13:45

And my own senior sources involved with the program have confirmed missile data on BR missile page; except those of TN weapons.

Arun guru,
Why the variation for TN weapons? What are the ranges with TNs?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2009 14:55

sum wrote:Why the variation for TN weapons? What are the ranges with TNs?

We dont have a proven TN , so ranges vz TN is just of academic value.

Though the one which was tested and failed was suppose to weigh 300 kg for a variable design yeald of 45 - 300 kT.