Mumbai Terrorist Attack-News stories and timeline

[SSridhar]

Kashmir not in 26/11 final chargesheet

The capture of Kashmir, touted as one of the motives behind the November 26 Mumbai terror attacks, finds no mention in the final charges framed in the case.

While the final charges include motives such as destabilising the government of India, an attempt to create instability, terrorising people and weakening India’s economic might, there is no reference to Kashmir.

[SSridhar]

And now, Prosecution wants to include Kashmir

How could they have missed it in the first place ?

[ramana]

Is this a MEA affair or prosecution of a terrorist attack? Looks like a PR boondoggle where what ever MEA missed throwing at TSP is being put inthe case and made into a farce. This is what happens with shadow boxing or kabuki!

Just charge the guy with the murder of Constable Omble and get him sentenced.

[sum]

Just charge the guy with the murder of Constable Omble and get him sentenced.

Exactly what Harish Salve and other well meaning emeinent jurists ahve been shouting from the rooftops...

They say that the GoI is only creating a nightmare for itself and potential loss of face since most of the charges thrown on Kasab are circumstantial and since most of the top pigs are in Pak(and will never face justice), half the cases will lead to quashing of the charges leading to potential international embarrassment. Hence, just throw one mureder charge, get it proven and hang the pig.

[SSridhar]

26/11 Attack: Indictment of Pakistanis Put Off

The indictment of five Pakistani suspects in the Mumbai attack, including the Lashkar-e-Taiba operations commander Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi, earlier expected at a hearing on Saturday by an anti-terror court, was put off to June 6, and the judge in the case has been changed.

The report says that the judge's contract expired and it wasn't renewed. Do judges work on a contract basis in Pakistan ? Or, ATC court judges alone are contracted ? Looks strange.

[ramana]

Just charge the guy with the murder of Constable Omble and get him sentenced.

Exactly what Harish Salve and other well meaning emeinent jurists ahve been shouting from the rooftops...

They say that the GoI is only creating a nightmare for itself and potential loss of face since most of the charges thrown on Kasab are circumstantial and since most of the top pigs are in Pak(and will never face justice), half the cases will lead to quashing of the charges leading to potential international embarrassment. Hence, just throw one mureder charge, get it proven and hang the pig.

Its war by other means for the impotent govt. They cant take TSP to task in reality so they want to hit them with the dossier. Those guys will continue.

[Vipul]

6 months on, still no modern arms.

It will be six months tomorrow since the audacious terror attacks in Mumbai on November 26, 2008. And in spite of the state chief minister promising, in the state assembly, that the police will be equipped with the most modern weapons and equipments, the police are yet to get the promised weapons and equipment.

On November 26, the police lost 14 personnel and had the chinks in their armoury exposed. In the immediate aftermath, the police had come out with a wish-list of weapons and equipment they need to prevent and counter such attacks in future.

The modern weaponry wanted include assault rifles, armoured bullet-proof vehicles, an amphibious vehicle, bullet-proof jackets, night-vision goggles, etc.The estimated bill for these items is pegged at over Rs100 crore.

The police had also sought advanced equipment for the Bomb Detection and Disposal Squad (BDDS), including devices to find and defuse explosive substances. A mobile bomb defuse unit, within which bombs can be safely detonated, is expected to be delivered soon while a bomb detection vehicle that scans out explosives using X-rays, is already undergoing trials with the police.

"So far, the weaponry has not been delivered since we had to order them from western countries," said a senior city police official, "They have a long procedure to ensure that the guns ordered are delivered only to law-enforcement agencies, which has caused the delay. But we should be getting them soon."

Armoured vehicles have a special significance considering that Anti-Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare and two other officers were killed since their vehicle was not bulletproof. The police are reported to be acquiring at least 15 armoured vehicles, usually used by the military in insurgency prone areas.

Another major addition is the greater vigilance along the city's coastline. The presence of coastal police stations in the city and patrolling by a few police boats had hardly deterred the terrorists who entered the city on a rubber dinghy.

Joint commissioner of police (administration) Bhagwant More refused to comment on the acquisition of armoured vehicles and weaponry, but said more boats had been acquired. "We have acquired the requisite boats and are patrolling the city's coast regularly," he said.

Another development post-26/11 was building bunkers manned by armed police personnel, set up with the dual purpose of reassuring people and enhancing security. But with the monsoon approaching, the police will be re-evaluating whether the bunkers will continue to stand. "We will review the pickets that have been set up and decide what is to be done about them," More said.

The Railway Police Force has also increased its security capabilities after the attack at the heritage Chhattrapati Shivaji Terminus, where 52 lives were lost. Authorities said the number of closed-circuit cameras has been increased and the policemen's weapons enhanced.

An X-ray baggage scanning machine has also been installed at CST. However, a Rs226-crore plan is being re-evaluated after firms that bid for it sought alternate means to recover costs instead of the offered advertising rights.

[Amber G.]

Pak frees all arrested JuD leaders

Islamabad, May 24 (ANI): Pakistan has freed all arrested leaders of the Jamat-ud-Dawa the parent body of the Lashkar-E-Toiba in a clear and open violation of UN sanctions.

The Lashkar top brass was rounded up after New Delhi protested in the aftermath of the 26/11 Mumbai attacks.

After India approached the UN, the UN Security Council had proscribed the Jamaat under resolution 1267 paving the way for the arrests. Among those who are released is Hamir Hamza, the JuD's chief strategist.

Also released are Saeed's key aides Abdul Rehman, the head of the information wing, Qazi, Kashif, Niaz, Balouch and Mufti. (ANI)

[SSridhar]

Witness details Murder of Trawler Captain as told by Ajmal Kasab

Mr. Takalkar said that when the 10 terrorists, including Ajmal, hijacked Kuber, they blindfolded Solanki and tied his hands at the back before slitting his throat and cutting the nape from end to end.

The motive of capturing Kashmir will not be included in the final charges. The prosecution moved an application before the court last week, asking for the addition.

Judge M.L. Tahaliyani said the court had taken into account all the submissions made by the prosecution, including the statements in Ajmal’s confession. So, it was not necessary to add further details to the final charges.

Mr. Tahaliyani said the charges of conspiracy and waging war against the government of India were part of the charges. All the accused had been given a copy of the charge sheet and other documents constituting the prosecutions case, and a copy of Ajmal’s confession, in which Kashmir found a mention. The charges and the case were explained to the accused so that there would be no room for them to feel that any prejudice might be caused to them.

Referring to a Supreme Court ruling, Mr. Tahaliyani said the accused were entitled to knowing the offence and the particulars of the law.

The prosecution agreed with this explanation and did not press the matter.

Mr. Tahaliyani sought to clear the confusion created by the defence contention that the Indian Penal Code (IPC) excluded Jammu and Kashmir from its definition of India. The judge noted that this argument by advocate Shahid Azmi was malicious.

Referring to Article 1 (First Schedule) of the Constitution, Mr. Tahaliyani said there should be no doubt that Jammu and Kashmir was part of India.

The Supreme Court too, in one of its cases, relied on Article 1 to define the Indian territory. Furthermore, the judge said, Mr. Azmi’s argument that the term, government of India, was repealed from the IPC was fallacious. Section 17 clearly defines government as the Central government or the government of a State.

[IndraD]

Today I saw interview of wife of martyr Karkare. She said nothing has changed in last 6 months. We have not taken any lessons from 26/11. Even today we are as unarmed as we were. It has become fashion to pay some money or promise jobs after police men die but do nothing actually to prevent their killing. She also told that after 26/11 there have been two big attacks on policemen by Naxals where many policemen died, also one important file pertaining to terrorist attacks has disappeared from ATS office, these all point towards rampant corruption and cheap life of police walas.

[Skanda]

Forgotten 26/11 hero gets only Rs 500 as award

I was awarded only five months after sending them [Indian Railways] an application," says Bablu Kumar Deepak, the courageous railway announcer at the main line section of Mumbai's Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus

"I was on night shift and I saw two boys throw a grenade near the 13th and 14th platform. There was a huge explosion and the next thing I noticed was dead people. I immediately informed Zende [the announcer at the local line].

While Zende got his due of Rs 10 lakhs immediately from the railway minister, Bablu waited to be acknowledged. And when he finally did, it was too little, too late.

Five months later, on May 7, 2009, Indian Railways acknowledged his act of bravery and dedication and awarded him with a certificate along with cash of Rs 500.

[IndraD]

India came close to striking Pak after 26/11: Air chief
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 586233.cms

In this true, AFAIK India didn't mobilise troops to Western border, does he mean surgical strikes, was it an option?

[ramana]

Could be legacy statement. Not supported by press reports of that time.

[SRoy]

India came close to striking Pak after 26/11: Air chief
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 586233.cms

In this true, AFAIK India didn't mobilise troops to Western border, does he mean surgical strikes, was it an option?

Doesn't mean anything.

Same stuff was heard around Op Parakram.

[shyamd]

Mumbai terror trail leads to Muscat

Praveen Swami
Lashkar financier Ali al-Hooti was in India days before the November attack
MUMBAI/NEW DELHI: Investigators have determined that a top Oman-based jihad financier was in Mumbai days before the November terror attacks, raising the possibility that elements of the operation might have been paid for by Lashkar-e-Taiba supporters in West Asia.

Muscat businessman Ali Abdul Aziz al-Hooti, who was sentenced to life by an Oman court last month for his role in plotting the bombing of offices, hotels and a spa, visited Mumbai between November 10 and 17, sources in the Maharashtra police told The Hindu. In his visa application, al-Hooti claimed that he wanted to visit relatives in the town of Miraj. Al-Hooti’s mother, the sources said, was of Maharashtra origin.

The police in Oman and India have determined that al-Hooti had direct links with several key suspects in the attack.

Most significant among them is Fahim Arshad Ansari, the alleged Lashkar intelligence officer, who is being tried on charges of having generated the videotape of Mumbai’s streetscapes used to train the assault team.

In a statement made to the Uttar Pradesh police early last year, which the Indian law excludes from use as evidence, Mumbai resident Ansari said his training had been facilitated by a Lashkar operative he identified as Mohammad Jassem.

Jassem, Ansari allegedly said, arranged his transit through Dubai and Oman on his way to a Lashkar camp in the Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

The Oman authorities have now discovered that Jassem was the link between al-Hooti and the Lashkar headquarters in Pakistan.

Jassem was held, along with al-Hooti, in raids carried out in Muscat early this year, but there has been no public word on his trial.

Al-Hooti and Jassem are also thought to have arranged the training of Ali Asshama, a Maldivian national who, along with Bangladesh-based Lashkar commander Faisal Haroun, helped to set up the Lashkar’s Indian Ocean networks. Haroun is thought to have played a key role in crafting the 2006 landing of assault rifles meant for use in a terror attack in Gujarat, as well as an abortive 2007 effort to land eight Lashkar fidayeen off Mumbai.

[SSridhar]

JuD leaders held at UN's behest: Lahore Court told

A Bench of the Lahore High Court, hearing a petition against the house arrest of Jamat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed was on Wednesday told by the Pakistan government’s senior-most lawyer that the evidence against him could not be produced in an open court, and that the group’s alleged involvement in the Mumbai attack was a reason for their detention.{I don't know if the senior-most lawyer himself used the word 'alleged' or it is just the reporter's usage. If the Government lawyer has used that word, that is an indication that the Pakistani government is not pursuing the Mumbai case seriously.}

Attorney-General Latif Khosa told the three-judge bench that the government had enough material against Mr. Saeed and another detained JuD leader Col. (retd.) Nazir Ahmed, who is a co-petitioner.

Mr. Khosa requested the bench for a meeting in chambers so that he could share the evidence with the judges.

Though the government was not entirely happy about it, he said, their detention was in the country’s larger interest; and after 9/11, the government had to take such “critical steps.”
{A complete giveaway that TSP is not going to cooperate in the Mumbai case at all}

The Attorney-General said the alleged involvement of the Jamat-ud-Dawa in the Mumbai attack had compelled Pakistan to detain them.

[SSridhar]

Police officer tenders evidence . . .

In what appears to be a set back {No, it is not. See bleow} to the prosecution in the Mumbai terror attack trial, a police officer on Thursday said he had seen Pakistani gunman Mohammed Ajmal Amir Kasab lying "unconscious" after a police encounter in Girgaum Chowpatty on November 26 last year.

All along, the prosecution has been maintaining through deposition of witnesses that Kasab was "conscious" and was overpowered by policemen at Girgaum Chowpatty.

Police Inspector Vinod Sawant, who is the investigating officer in this case, told defence lawyer Abbas Kazmi that he had seen Kasab and another terrorist Abu Ismail lying in an "unconscious" condition.

Special Public Prosecutor Ujjwal Nikam, asked the court to allow him re-examine the policeman to seek a clarification from him. Mr. Nikam said a police officer is not a medical expert to determine whether a person was conscious or unconscious.

However, Judge M L Tahaliyani rejected Mr. Nikam's prayer saying there was no ambiguity in what the witness has said and hence there was no need to re-examine the witness.

Mr. Nikam said, "Kasab is a great actor. He has been given special intelligence training by conspirators in Pakistan and he had pretended to lie unconscious when he was confronted by policemen at Girgaum Chowpatty. Perhaps that is why the police inspector might have considered that he was unconscious".

Outside the court, Mr. Nikam said "the deposition of witness will not affect the prosecution's case".

I do not see a contradiction here. This is what another police sub-inspector witness had earlier told the court

While Ismail was seriously injured, Kasab opened the front door of the car on the left side and pretended to fall down, the witness told Special Public Prosecutor Ujjwal Nikam during examination-in-chief. As ASI Omble and API Sanjay Govilkar approached Kasab, he started firing at Omble, the witness said.

The ASI got hit by the bullets while pouncing at Kasab and tried to disarm him. After Omble was injured, a police team reigned a blow of lathis on Kasab and snatched his AK-47 rifle, the witness said.

Kasab was probably lying on the ground, even unconscious, after he was given some 'treatment' in the process of his capture. This is probably what Inspector Vinod Sawant saw when he arrived. He was not witness to earlier incidents at Chowpatty. Why should it therefore be considered as a setback to prosecution ?

[sum]

Something tells me that Kasab will not hang for the next 10 years atleast and expect the same DDM which was baying for his blood till last year to write huge sob stories 10 years later talking about how civilised India is and how releasing Kasab will boost Indo-Pak relations (just like with Dr.Binayak Sen now)

[SSridhar]

JuD linked to Al Qaeda: Pakistan Attorney General

According to judicial sources, the court is mulling over the documents.

JuD leader’s counsel AK Dogar said these documents should be presented in an open session of the court in the presence of Hafiz Saeed.

Does anyone still remember Musharraf's defence of JuD ? Pakistan's attorney general has yesterday accepted in a court of law that JuD has links with Al Qaeda.

On another point, several people are saying that JuD was banned in circa 2001. No, it wasn't. On Jan 12, 2002 Gen Musharraf banned five organizations, namely, the Jaish-i-Mohammad (JeM), Lashkar-i-Taiba(LeT), Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan(SSP), Tehrik-i-Jaferia Pakistan(TJP) and Tanzim Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Mohammadi(TNSM). Hafeez Saeed had announced on Dec. 13, 2001 (the same day of the Parliament Attack) itself that he was devoting himself to charity as head of the new organization, Jama'at-ud-Dawa'h based in Kashmir. He chose Kashmir as the HQ of his organization because he knew beforehand that the Jan, 2002 ban were not to be applied to PoK, FATA and NA. However, he was still arrested by Pakistan, to pretend their sincerity, but a Lahore High Court released him soon upon an appeal filed by his newly married third wife.

[Patni]

Police officer tenders evidence . . .


I do not see a contradiction here. This is what another police sub-inspector witness had earlier told the court

While Ismail was seriously injured, Kasab opened the front door of the car on the left side and pretended to fall down, the witness told Special Public Prosecutor Ujjwal Nikam during examination-in-chief. As ASI Omble and API Sanjay Govilkar approached Kasab, he started firing at Omble, the witness said.

The ASI got hit by the bullets while pouncing at Kasab and tried to disarm him. After Omble was injured, a police team reigned a blow of lathis on Kasab and snatched his AK-47 rifle, the witness said.

Kasab was probably lying on the ground, even unconscious, after he was given some 'treatment' in the process of his capture. This is probably what Inspector Vinod Sawant saw when he arrived. He was not witness to earlier incidents at Chowpatty. Why should it therefore be considered as a setback to prosecution ?

The way thing happened is once ASI Omble latched on to kasab's AK-47 and shielded others while receiving 6 bullets. here is a quote from one of the inspector

Bhaskar Kadam is an assistant sub-inspector. He joined the force in 1991. He was on duty that night when Inspector Mahale told him to man the Chowpatty check post. He is the main detective at the D B Marg police station and has six detectives reporting to him. Kadam and his men were in mufti when they arrived at Girgaum Chowpatty.
"I was standing on the other side of the divider with ASI Bhoundhankar, who was already there as this was his beat. We were both carrying pistols. We were there from 10 pm. We were getting the news on our wireless of all the happenings in south Mumbai. Our men were behind the barricade."

"Traffic was thinning as time passed. Finally, there were no vehicles on Marine Drive. We had checked every vehicle since 10 pm. Now there were none."

"At 0016 we heard that the terrorists had hijacked a Skoda car. There was a strong possibility that they would come here. On the wireless we got confirmation that they had entered Marine Drive. At 0030 the silver Skoda stopped 50 feet away from our barrier."

"They turned on the wipers and headlights. We shouted, "Headlights off, surrender, get down." For 90 seconds they stood still, then then tried a 'U' turn."

"The road divider obstructed the 'U' turn. I was near the divider. The driver fired two rounds with his left hand. I fired three shots from my pistol. Bhoundhankar also fired three shots. The driver was seriously injured (he died later)."

"My people rushed forward and took his AK-47, and car keys."

"On the other side, the terrorist opened the door and lay down on the road. His gun was still in his hand. The policemen behind the barricade ran towards him. Omble dived on him and tried to take away the gun. The terrorist fired. Omble took six bullets, but did not let go."

"The other policemen then beat the terrorists with their lathis. They took away his AK-47 and a pistol from his pocket. He fainted from the blows. He also had bullet wounds."

The Police thought both the pigs were on the way to collect their 72 already and both kasab as well as ismail were taken to JJ hospital morgue as is practice of mumbai police in case of dead bodies. It was only later found out that kasab was still alive when a doctor checked him at morgue. so its obvious that plenty of ppl saw kasab laying unconscious or deliberately playing dead once he got lathi prasadam!

[Gerard]

Committee set up to go into 26/11 findings

[shiv]

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/sou ... 99157.html

India, Pakistan to resume ‘track-two diplomacy’

If this news is true this thread can be locked up and consigned to history.

Once Indians forget the pain of their own people - there is no sense in pushing this topic further. But I am a late Lateef here. In fact my own protest should have come even before Musharraf was invited to the "Indian Today" conclave.

There is a serious flaw in cavalier manner in which a whole lot of Indians see murder, death and murderers, but I suppose it can only be mentioned in the trashcan archive or the hidden discussions forum. Nationalism requires that such dirty linen not be washed in public.

[CRamS]

shiv:

Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I think one has to hand over TSP and US victory; India, as we on BR envision it, is a lost cause. Mumbai will become another footnote in history: "both India and TSP hate and hurt each other" will be the epitaph on Mumbai 26/11 grave.

I cannot not believe the coversations I have been having with a lots of my buddies, very intelligent, the new globalized elite of India, from VPs in top corporations, to briliant academicians; who have a foot here in US and India. Everyone without exception, relates to the US view of Indian subcontinent, namely, TSP is in dire straits, India must sieze the moment and help TSP, Mumbai type attacks are bound to happen bla bla and other nauseating nonsesne. And with the lone dissenting voice trying to drill some sense into these morons, trying to impress that TSP's sole aim is the destruction of India, I am dismissed as a BJP/RSS fanatic or a conspiracy buff. People have even gone so far as labeling me Hindu Taliban. And I can bet you, this is the common line of thinking among the elite in India's metros. I wonder if you agree with me on this?

I am mystified as to how this gruesome sitaution come about? How did TSP and USA pull such a massive con job on Indians? Is there anything TSP can do to India to wake up these morons? Better still, is there any diabolical act TSP can commit against India without the west actually blaming India for TSP's crime, and Indian elite joining in? The funny thing is that none of these elites I know have any great love for TSP; its just the US-fed and DDM-fed delusion that somehow India is on its way to being a super power, while TSP is failing, and India cannot allow it to fail because a 'stable and prosperous' TSP is in India's interests. At this point, I get tired of even trying, whats the point in playing a melifluous Mozart Piano sonata in front of a buffalo ? Only saving grace is that most of the time, it was I who started the TSP conversation to gauge what people are thinking; otherwise they couldn't even give a rat's behind for TSP.

[shiv]

I am mystified as to how this gruesome sitaution come about? How did TSP and USA pull such a massive con job on Indians?

There is no mystery. This is Indian behavior - but not something we want to talk about here. Indians are different. We see the world and even death differently. But only some of us will admit that.

[ramana]

Have you both conisdered that GOI has a mind of its own and just because others interests coincide doesnt mean that it was their interests that are being followed?

[Anujan]

There is no mystery. This is Indian behavior - but not something we want to talk about here. Indians are different. We see the world and even death differently. But only some of us will admit that.

Shiv-saar

GOI does not have a choice. The basic problem in GOI-Paki relationship is that there is no single power center in Pakistan. Track II diplomacy has its own benefits, in the calculus of power in Pakistan, it might make the civvies more susceptible to american squeezing to relocate troops from the east to the west. That means a reduction in infiltration for us and an opportunity for Pakis to stew in their own juices. On the other hand, there will be significant power centers, most likely Army/ISI who ignore track II and continue to do their thing in India - I am sure the babus in the foreign office are aware of this.

What should GOI do in such a scenario ?

On the one hand persuading the Army/ISI to give up their enmity of India attacks at the core of their lively hood. (It is like a US delegation at the height of coldwar trying to convince Russian Politburo to give up communism). It is impossible. On the other hand there needs to be a section of Paki society, who for India's benefit, need to retain rationality and sanity.

The best option IMHO is to resume Track II along with subversive activities. If a few car bombs goes off in Muridke along with the chai-biskoot session, I will be satisfied.

[vera_k]

There is no choice really. India tried to defy the US, but failed economically.

[SSridhar]

More indications that Hafeez Saeed will be released soon

If Pakistan was bound to implement the UN Security Council resolution on Jamat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed, why was India not bound to implement UN resolutions on Kashmir, a full bench of the Lahore High Court wanted to know from Pakistan Attorney-General Latif Khosa on Saturday.

But, he told The Hindu the judges appeared to be more concerned about the legal side than the merits of the case.“They asked the Attorney-General again and again if the government had given Hafiz Saeed the grounds for detention [within the stipulated 15-day period]. The answer was no, and everybody knows it so well that this is against the law,” Mr. Dogar said.

After that, India will begin the Track I diplomacy or 'peace talks'.

[CRamS]

Anujan:

Don't spin cowardice and treason as some kind of policy bereft of other alternatives. No, the problem is that there are many in India, including MMS, who genuinely believe in sucking up to to TSP. Tell me, if India's stance is the following, what is the worst consequence for India:

1) No talks with TSP until and unless TSP hand over the list of 20 hardcore scum including Hafeez Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim.

2) The interntaonal community, including USA should not make any distinction between "good" TSP terrorists (Let?jaish/Hizbul) and "bad" TSP terrorists (Al Queda & Taliban). USA demanding India talk to TSP is tantamount to asking USA to talk to Al Queda and Bin ladin.

3) India is willing to discuss Kashmir or any other issue with TSP, but make no mistake about it, India will NOT relenquish its soviergnty over Kashmir.

4) India respects the territorial integrity of TSP as long as TSP gives up terror as an instrument of state policy.

Tell me, if India is hardline when it comes to the above, how worse can the situation get than it is today? Anything less is rewarding TSP (and USA's perfidy) in as I said using terror as an instrument of state policy.

I forgot to add one more thing. India simply does not have assets in TSP, the kind TSP has in India, for covert subversion to succeed. India'e best policy is to deny TSP any kind of legitimacy it so desperately seeks: talks with India thereby re-enforcing equal equal.

[shiv]

Track II diplomacy has its own benefits,

Anujan. It has no tangible benefit to India. It gives legitimacy to criminals in Pakistan and it gives comfort to those Indians who fear war and who fear that their applecart will be upset.

"Track II diplomacy" is just a slow-motion version of flying to Kandahar and letting off terrorists.

But A large percentage of Indians seem to want tha. That is an Indian fault - not the GoI's fault. But the GoI can lead, and it does not lead. We feel hope when we hear Bharat Karnad but that is a mirage. The government will not take tough action.

On the one hand persuading the Army/ISI to give up their enmity of India attacks at the core of their lively hood. (It is like a US delegation at the height of coldwar trying to convince Russian Politburo to give up communism). It is impossible. On the other hand there needs to be a section of Paki society, who for India's benefit, need to retain rationality and sanity.

You cannot convince a rabid dog of anything, but imagining that having a few fleas off the dog's back as our friends is useful is a mistake. The dog must go and if the fleas go with it we need to feel no remorse.

The "rational and sane" people with whom we are supposed to talk are the same people who are being paid by the US to appear rational and sane while they hide their anti-India hate.

I would dearly love to see Pakistan's nukes fall into the hands of the Taliban. That will actually make things safer for us. In the long term such an eventuality will be one more blow in making the US weaker. The US must become weak before we will be able to handle Pakistan better. By befriending Paki dogs we are acting as the USs lapdog.

[vera_k]

Just having the nukes fall into Taliban hands will not do much good. The Taliban also need long range delivery systems to put the nukes to use.

[shiv]

Just having the nukes fall into Taliban hands will not do much good. The Taliban also need long range delivery systems to put the nukes to use.

Yes, but we are now protecting ONLY the US by opposing the Taliban. It makes us no safer. If the Taliban get nukes, they will be one step closer won't they?

In fact your argument is the very argument Indians have used about Pakistani nukes

1) They don't have nukes
later...
2) They don't have delivery systems
still later..
3) The don't have second strike capability

Let the US do some pant-crapping for a change.

And all the while the US has been quite happy to allow proliferation to go ahead. India's mistake was in not recognizing that playing dirty, cheating and lying is the way of the world. We are loath to accept that fact using any possible excuse. A nation of pseudo-Gandhis without Gandhis intelligence and guile

[chetak]

Just having the nukes fall into Taliban hands will not do much good. The Taliban also need long range delivery systems to put the nukes to use.

I don't think that the talibs or the porkis are going to complicate their lives by mating the stolen weapons to delivery systems.

Easiest to smuggle the warheads in lead lined commercial containers and place them in which location they want. Thereafter set off a local explosion.

This container home delivery system is what has caused the goras to tighten up their port security as part of their homeland defences.

To make an example of their intentions and capabilities, a likely place to set off such a local nuclear explosion would be in the deep south of India.

Many birds with one stone.

The porkis would escape the fallout as well as scare the crap out of the goras. Ever since hiroshima and nagasaki, the goras have feared this one thing more than any other, because in their heart of hearts they expect that such a day will dawn on them too.

They fear asian retribution.

[John Snow]

Suddenly Shiv ji is sounding like Spinster during Akhand Bumbling days

[SSridhar]

More arguments on behalf of Hafeez Saeed

The counsel of Hafiz Saeed presenting the arguments during the hearing said even al-Qaeda has not been declared a terrorist organization under Pakistani law and questioned the justification of declaring a body a terrorist organization in the wake of UN resolution.

“Pakistan is an autonomous state, it should implement its own laws rather than following the resolutions passed by the UN,” he said.

[harbans]

We should have a treaty that bars countries having missilies of less than 5000 kms radius. Or only ICBMs should be allowed. Give Taliban ICBM technology. No country will then be able to trouble it's neighbours. Thats safer and much better than the MTCR of max 300 km range. Think about it..

[Anujan]

Anujan. It has no tangible benefit to India. It gives legitimacy to criminals in Pakistan and it gives comfort to those Indians who fear war and who fear that their applecart will be upset.

"Track II diplomacy" is just a slow-motion version of flying to Kandahar and letting off terrorists.

You cannot convince a rabid dog of anything, but imagining that having a few fleas off the dog's back as our friends is useful is a mistake. The dog must go and if the fleas go with it we need to feel no remorse.

The "rational and sane" people with whom we are supposed to talk are the same people who are being paid by the US to appear rational and sane while they hide their anti-India hate.

Shiv-saar
I largely agree with what you say and I am a bit far from being a WKK. Having said that, the reason I said GOI does not have a choice is because, looking into the history of Pakistan as a guide to our future actions, I want to pose the question

What Carrot/Stick has ever tempted Pakistan to act according to the negotiating party's objectives ?

A supplementary question to that is

Did all power centers in Pakiland go along with the objective ?

The most recent example, of course, is GOAT. Unkil (for all the scorn and ridicule we heap upon him here), has deep pockets, the firepower, facilities, covert abilities and national will to fashion convincing carrots and effective sticks. Pakis have run circles around Unkil, both under Mushy and currently under Ten percent (the former taking the money and doing some window dressing and the latter feigning helplessness). Ofcourse, there are the islamist parties, RAPEs, ISI/Army who dont go along with GOAT anyway.

India does not have enough carrots nor an effective stick. So where does it leave us ? If we claim that Track-II is nothing but a waste of time, withholding Tack-II is not a effective tactic anyway, because its not a big a deal from Paki perspective. (If we dont accomplish anything by talking anyway, Pakis are not going to miss anything if we refuse to talk).

The argument about Isolation/Principles/International Attention etc achieved by not talking is all BS anyway, because nobody, I repeat nobody, has any illusions about Nuke proliferation, Islamism, Kargil and terrorism done by Pakis and India refusing to talk is not going to draw any new attention to these issues.

The only other option is to wage an existential struggle against the pakis with all of our national will and resources. But that will prove costly for us. Cheenis will keep us bogged down, and manufacturing a national consensus of "Anti pakistan but not anti muslim" is going to be tricky among the hindus and probably impossible among muslims.

Thats why I throw up my hands, do a rapid downhill skiing and hope Track-II works (or atleast makes us look good during the period we wait and hope the pakis implode). It reminds me of a quote from Catch-22 by Joseph heller

While none of the work we do is very important, it is important that we do a great deal of it

[Virupaksha]

Anujan,

Let the start of track-II diplomacy itself be a carrot? We have MANY levers in our hand, we refuse to look at them as levers. Get SOMETHING out of them.
Anyway chai-biskuit provides nothing to us anyway.
Like hanuman, we doesnt know our strength. We are like that along with our monstrous whining capability.

[shiv]

We should have a treaty that bars countries having missilies of less than 5000 kms radius. Or only ICBMs should be allowed. Give Taliban ICBM technology. No country will then be able to trouble it's neighbours. Thats safer and much better than the MTCR of max 300 km range. Think about it..

Harbans - this is wise lateral thinking.

In fact China has already done this. China understood the west a long time ago. They scrambled to make themselves militarily difficult to defeat and then decided that if everyone who is a pain has nukes - those painful nations will be China's lapdogs forever while threatening the laughable "world order" that the West keeps bleating about.

"World order" is a Western construct and anything that preserves "world order" preserves Western domination. Macaulayite India has swallowed this con job wholesale and is desperately struggling to keep the "world order" like a chowkidar for the West. For new powers to move ahead the old oder need to be brought down. We lose nothing by allowing the Taliban to have ICBMs - or alternatively - allowing a Talibanized Paki army to have ICBMs.

[AbhishekD]

Time to close this thread. Hafeez Saeed has been released and track II diplomacy has started.

No point whining now. Lets go and sleep till the next attack happens.