Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 19 May 2009 15:57

Dmurphy wrote:
abhiti wrote:Current generation of aerostat radars have range of about 250 km (not 500km).
Are u sure of that? No matter which source i referred, they all say 500 Km radius or range
Source 1
Source 2

Tethered aerostats are deployed typically at an altitude of 15,000 feet which gives it max range of 278km. For a range of 500km you will need to deploy it at 50,000 ft. Americans are working on system which will be deployed at 65,000 ft and cover range of about 600km. Phalcon aircraft has max altitude of 40,000 ft with effective range of 450km. Some UAVs like Global Hawk do provide an max altitude of 65000 ft and therefore used by uncle for ocean and land surveillance.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 May 2009 17:28

Dmurphy wrote: I was hoping the rest of the alphabets like IFF could be ground managed after receiving inputs from Aerostat radar.

I would not doubt that at all.

However, we on BR have a (bad?) tendency to look at stuff mostly from an off-the-shelf view. Given what India has done with two Greenpines, I am fairly confident that India has made really good use of these Aerostats too.

Having said that there are two limiting factors that Aerostats have (IMHO of course - no expert here, heavily depend on Mr. Google to feed me): the size of the Aerostat and the fact that it is static. From an "INT" PoV, these have got to be limiting factors when compared to a roving entity like the AWACS. I am sure that the Aerostat provide some "INT" value too and I would imagine that in Kashmir they do come in handy (intercepting localized comm between mobile terrorists?) (and, even perhaps snooping on gen_pop, who knows).

Less said the better. Let them cook just thinking about it.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 May 2009 15:42

New date for induction of phalcon - may 24th

Kritavarman · Post by **Kritavarman** » 20 May 2009 17:31

Delay, any specific reason.

or is it a trick

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 20 May 2009 20:20

Dmurphy wrote:Shiv and other Gurus here, I have query

If we can't take the AWACS into the Pak territory during peacetime and say we keep the AWACS a safe distance into India (about 100 Kms), then we are left with just 300 Kms of insight into the Pak territory. And that would also mean risking an asset like AWACS, shortening its life, burning a lot of fuel, raising the takes for the maintenance staff etc.

So during peacetime, why don't we deploy the Aerostat radars which seem to have a better range (500 Kms) than the AWACS (400Kms). The AWACS could be flown only during the war time.

Ideally as abhiti wrote a mix of Aerostats, AWACS, ground based radars, Space based radars (if available) drones, aircraft radars (even fighters generally have radars with ranges more than 50 km) etc could be used to monitor enemy airspace and ground movement.
An important point is that an AWACS is just not a radar in the sky, but is more like a flying control centre and as such has tremendous computing power. It is more like a node assimilating, analysing and co-ordinating data from various sources. And vectoring in our air assets to the enemy threats.

Aerostats are good but have a limitation in which as they are tethered to the ground and are immobile are easy targets and the enemy will try to destroy as many as possible in the initial strike. Aerostats are more favoured in areas where ground based radar systems will have a blind spot and performance degradation due to ground clutter. They are used to plug gaps in areas where it is difficult to utilize any other type of ground radar systems.

We cannot use Aerostats across the spectrum of the ground border, as this will be too expensive to operate and maintain. A solution is to have Highest radar coverage in areas which are the highest possible routes of ingress into our borders. As the probability of ingress in certain routes is less, it will only use cheaper solutoins like ground based mobile radar to have a 100 Km or so coverage. Here is where the AWACS or AEW aircraft will come handy and plug the gaps. Moreover AWACS and AEW aircraft are more survivable as compared to the Aerostat systems which makes them important assets once there are gaps in radar coverage due to loss of aerostats.

Even a 300 Km insight into enemy territory is good enough time for our forces to react. Most aircraft used by our neighbours have ranges of <1000 km (in cruise mode). This implies that they will have to take off from airfields which are <500 km from the border to even reach the border. To have any significant attack probability they will need a buffer where they should be able to do a supersonic egress at least (in many cases supersonic ingress also), which means afterburner flying, which in turn drastically reduces the range of the aircraft. Also they will fly atleast 100 km in our airspace to have any significant attack impact. Keeping this in mind an attack aircraft on full load, with a 20% supersonic flight range probability will have to take off from an airfield within about 300 kms of the border...which incidentally is good enoug for our AEW/AWACS and Aerostat systems!

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 20 May 2009 20:31

Bhai Log
It is May 20th, I thought Phalcon will be at Agra today. No news till 8pm.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 May 2009 20:36

Clearing customs at Palam. They have misplaced papers.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 20 May 2009 20:52

Baljeet wrote:Bhai Log
It is May 20th, I thought Phalcon will be at Agra today. No news till 8pm.

India to receive first Phalcon AWACS on May 24- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 20 May 2009 22:57

NRao wrote:Clearing customs at Palam. They have misplaced papers.

Bossji
That was fantastic.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 21 May 2009 09:27

....

The remaining two aircraft would be delivered by mid or late 2010, if everything goes according to schedule, defence sources said. “The experience gained in the integration of the first one will come in handy with the rest,” they felt.

Negotiations between India and Israel for the purchase of three more Phalcon AWACS are said to be in an advanced stage.

The IAF proposes to integrate them with other air and ground assets. {Aerostat's}

All the six AWACS will be linked with the country’s first military satellite proposed to be launched by the middle of next year. — PTI

http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/21/stories ... 271100.htm

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 21 May 2009 22:19

Enjoy guys, Something till the real thing is shown to the public :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoKOe6mW3wQ

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 21 May 2009 22:41

krishna_krishna wrote:Enjoy guys, Something till the real thing is shown to the public :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoKOe6mW3wQ

good
thank you

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 May 2009 23:06

vavinash wrote:That canard was spread by porkis as an excuse for the ass whipping they got in 71. IAF never had the Moss.

IIRC, there was an article from an instructor in TACDE, where he described how a map, compass, a stopwatch and a flashlight was taped to form a "makeshift HUD" to go for accurate bombing runs in Paki airfields at night. The Paki interceptors could only watch from above as the TACDE instructors made screaming low level bombing runs on the airfields -- promptly the next day there were articles in Paki newspapers about how Russian AWACS was directing the attacks !

If I were a paki journalist, I would have gone with the more traditional route of "RAW along with CIA and Mossad" were directing the attacks

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 22 May 2009 22:30

IAF AWACS to arrive on May 25
Heralding a new chapter, the first Indian Air Force AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) platform that altogether sets to alter the dimension of the see-through capability of the IAF beyond conventional visions of ground-based and tethered electromagnetic sensors, will arrive in India on May 25.

On its maiden flight from Israel to India, the veritable flying-giant with an all-pervasive electromagnetic vision will land first at Jamnagar in western Gujarat and arrive at Palam airport the following day. Although slated to operate from Agra, home to the mammoth Ilyushin family in India, an induction ceremony awaits the first AWACS in the National Capital.

The ceremony will be attended by among others the Chief of the Air Staff, Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chiefs of the Western and Central Air Command and other senior dignitaries from the Ministry of Defence, Air HQs besides air warriors from the squadron itself.

The AWACS is an airborne mission support system fitted on an IL-76 aircraft with improved engines. With radar that can help detect even a cruise missile or an aircraft at ranges far more than the ranges detected through the present ground-based radars, the AWACS radar, most sophisticated to date, can collate surface information about troop movements and missile launches even while listening to highly confidential communications between enemy frontline units.

Air combats the world over are now envisaged in an ever-increasing electronic surveillance environment where pilots have little liberties for individual manouevring without endangering their own lives or safety of their aircraft. The IAF AWACS will help pilots find hitherto unconceivable space and room for tactical manouevres in the air under controlled directions that will give them an edge over their adversaries at all times.

AWACS, a potent force-multiplier, will significantly enhance the effectiveness of both - offensive and defensive operations. The intensity and pace of modern air battle need AWACS for a successful air defence umbrella to be maintained. The swift mobility that the AWACS platform provides will help neutralize any threat as it can be moved anywhere at a very short notice.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 May 2009 22:51

Wonder if it will have an escort ................................. better have one, after all the discussion on BR!!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 May 2009 02:00

IAF to get its first AWACS on Monday

...
Although slated to operate from Agra, home to the mammoth Ilyushin family, an induction ceremony awaits the first AWACS in the national capital. The ceremony will be attended by among others the Chief of the Air Staff, Vice-Chief of the Air Staff, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chiefs of the Western and Central Air Command and other senior dignitaries from the Ministry of Defence, Air HQs besides air warriors from the squadron itself, a Defence Ministry release said.
...

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 23 May 2009 06:47

Kakarat wrote:can collate surface information about troop movements and missile launches even while listening to highly confidential communications between enemy frontline units.

So, AWACS would be having sophisticated algorithms embedded to its ears to decode mysterious encrypted communication? Ofcourse to the reasonable extend.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 May 2009 07:54

NRao wrote:My recollection is that India tried the A-50, at around the same time Israel "offered" the Phalcon to China. The US stepped in and forced Israel to stop the Chinese deal, when the Phalcon was offered to India. India, then, declined the A-50 and accepted the Phalcon (on a Russian aircraft).

IIRC IAF had also exercised with the A-50 sometime in the early 90's in order to check it out.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 23 May 2009 10:48

The thing should be flanked & escorted by MKIs throughout its flight from isreal to Jamnagar. Also, the flight path and everything should have been kept scret.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 May 2009 11:09

For all one knows, the AWACs might already be in Desh and this flight path details etc is just to throw a red herring...

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 25 May 2009 07:36

India gets first Awacs from Israel

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 25 May 2009 16:23

First of IAF AWACS arrives in India
14:50 PIB

The first of the three Indian Air Force AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) platform arrived in India from Israel today. The giant IL-76 configured in its new avatar was escorted by three Mig-29 and Jaguar aircraft each that took off from an advance fighter airbase of South Western Air Command (SWAC). The fighter formations caught up with the AWACS mid-air and escorted it as it entered the Indian FIR (Flight Information Region), till safe touchdown at the Jamnagar airbase, close to midday, today.

Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, SWAC, Air Marshal KD Singh, Air Defence Commander Air Vice Marshal P Singh and the AOC Jamnagar, Air Commodore C Hari Kumar and air warriors of the airbase welcomed the crew of the AWACS aircraft that included the Commanding Officer of the first AWACS squadron, Group Captain B Saju. Their maiden touchdown on Indian soil also marks the first landing of the AWACS in an IAF airbase.

“ It was a great feeling to be escorted by our fighters and it feels really good to be back”, said Group Captain B Saju upon arrival. Flown by a full complement of IAF pilots belonging to the newly formed squadron from Ovda International airport, located in southern Israel, the aircraft undertook an eight-and-a-half hour’s flight skirting around several countries taking the aerial route over the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea before landing at Jamnagar.

The aircraft is slated to arrive at Palam airport tomorrow where an induction ceremony is scheduled on May 28. The AWACS are slated to operate from the Agra airbase under Central Air Command and frenetic preparations ahead of its first arrival to join the extended fleet of the IL-76 family are complete.

Thursday is going to be great day. Cant wait to see pics of this great bird.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 25 May 2009 16:43

So AWACS were clocking speed of around 500Kmph to cover approx 4000Km(!) distance in 8.5hrs.

rahuldevnath · Post by **rahuldevnath** » 25 May 2009 16:59

NRao wrote:
My recollection is that India tried the A-50, at around the same time Israel "offered" the Phalcon to China. The US stepped in and forced Israel to stop the Chinese deal, when the Phalcon was offered to India. India, then, declined the A-50 and accepted the Phalcon (on a Russian aircraft).

IIRC IAF had also exercised with the A-50 sometime in the early 90's in order to check it out.

A-50 field trials were conducted in 1999-2000 to be precise. and it was way below IAF's expectations.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 May 2009 17:32

The giant IL-76 configured in its new avatar was escorted by three Mig-29 and Jaguar aircraft

Jaguar IMs for deterrence from seas?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 May 2009 17:43

Link to the PIB release-First of IAF AWACS arrives in India

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 May 2009 18:05

Dmurphy wrote:
The giant IL-76 configured in its new avatar was escorted by three Mig-29 and Jaguar aircraft
Jaguar IMs for deterrence from seas?

Data point. No Su 30s.

Yet

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 May 2009 18:05

AWACS in India

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 25 May 2009 18:06

AWACS and Arjun Delivery pictures at..

http://livefist.blogspot.com/

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 25 May 2009 18:18

Phalcon

Mammoth Relives

,Hearty Welcome

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 25 May 2009 18:26

it is really a great news........

what about the security features in AWACS .. i mean if there is a war obviously enemies first mission will be to shoot our AWACS... so how we can protect our bird

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 25 May 2009 18:26

Himanshu wrote:AWACS and Arjun Delivery pictures at..

http://livefist.blogspot.com/

The Mig29 i the second pic is unarmed..

I hope it was not one of the Mig29's that escorted.. is there any logic to sending a unarmed fighter as escort ? Why dont we send a fully armed Jag/Baaz -- good for psyops..

why watse a good psy-op/photo-op

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 25 May 2009 18:30

Escorts are provided more as a welcome then for any other value.. remember that when Air India got it's first 777's they were escorted by the MKI's.. and since all the flying IAF Military jets are received at Jamnagar AFB first the base just sent the aircrafts that are based out there.. the 29's and the Jags...

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 25 May 2009 18:35

Himanshu wrote:since all the flying IAF Military jets are received at Jamnagar AFB first the base just sent the aircrafts that are based out there.. the 29's and the Jags...

That is what I presumed. But what jets is/are supposed to do if faced by challenge (just in case) if unarmed?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 May 2009 19:24

Gaurav_S wrote:
Himanshu wrote:since all the flying IAF Military jets are received at Jamnagar AFB first the base just sent the aircrafts that are based out there.. the 29's and the Jags...
That is what I presumed. But what jets is/are supposed to do if faced by challenge (just in case) if unarmed?

Run like hell

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 25 May 2009 20:19

Jags and Mig 29s 'escorting' the Phalcon in? IAF has done its first AWACS training exercise already! The mig-29's were probably directed to intercept the Jags then the whole package escorted the Phalcon in.

It is only expected that maritime Jags and Anti combat equipped Mig-29s were sent in. Surely there would have been a fighter escort all the way from leaving israeli airspace to entering Indian airspace? This is too strategic a piece of hardware to ever fly alone. Me thinks it was the Yehudis in the initial phase, then long ranged MKI's, finally the 29's and Jags escorted her in.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2009 21:08

such things are not mentioned. anyway in peacetime, there is little risk flying a commercial air corridor
down the red sea or over the arabian sea.

the last thing the pakis want is a limited and sound thrashing to echandee at this juncture.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 26 May 2009 05:50

Looks like they have different engines on the Phalcon IL-76 as compared to the standard IL-76/78 midas. There was some talk of this, if I recall, anyone know for sure?

Looks like its loaded with antennas, look at the ones above the tail!

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 26 May 2009 06:04

Israeli Phalcon to land in India today
Monday, May 25, 2009

Tel Aviv: Indian Air Force pilots are all set to fly home first of the three Israeli Phalcon AWACS, India’s most potent force multiplier, capable of tracking down incoming missiles and peep into neighbouring countries without violating their airspace.

“The Russian supplied Ilyushin-76 mounted system, a part of the tripartite agreement between India, Israel and Russia, will take off from the Ben-Gurion airport on Sunday , first for Uvda in the southern Israeli coastal town of Eilat,” Defence Sources here said. “Later in the night it will fly from Eilat to Jamnagar, reaching India on Monday ,” the sources said.

The all weather system, capable of logging 60 targets simultaneously with a range of 400 km, is primarily used for detection of incoming hostile cruise missiles and aircraft from hundreds of kilometres away, as well as directing air defence fighters during combat operations against enemy jets.

It also helps detect troop build up in hostile territories. India’s frontline IAF fighters like Sukhoi-30MKIs, Mirage-2000s and Jaguars after the supply of the aircraft will be backed by “eyes in the sky” to look much beyond its existing capability through direct data linking.

The delivery of the first of the three aircraft, bought at a whopping price of $1.1 billion, is almost a year and a half behind schedule. Much of the delay is being attributed to technical difficulties arising while integrating the Ilyushin-76 aircraft with the whole system.

The remaining two aircraft would be delivered by Mid or late 2010, if everything goes on schedule, the sources said. India and Israel are said to be in advanced talks for the purchase of several more Phalcon AWACS, which the IAF proposes to integrate with other air and ground assets.

All the AWACS bought from Israel would be linked with the country’s first military satellite proposed to be launched by mid next year.
..
....

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 May 2009 06:27

if looks are worth a hoot that thing looks more menacingly intimidating than anything out there. it's so gorgious and ferocious looking that it would shoot down couple of enemy fighters by just its looks.

Took a freaking decade but the end product is worth the wait!!!!