US and PRC relationship & India

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ramana
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

archan wrote:X-posting.
India ups vigil on China border (NDTV)
India increases troops:

* Two new divisions (40,000 troops)
* Artillery brigade, 9 airstrips
* Military's assessment: China is India's greatest threat
* India wants to match China's forces
* Cost: Rs 5,000 crores


To which I replied in the Ind Army thread...
ramana wrote:I dont know why NDTV is playing this up;
India is increasing the number of troops on the border with China in Arunachal Pradesh. NDTV has learnt that two mountain divisions, that is, 40,000 troops will be recruited over the next two years.

It's a huge step that New Delhi has taken and reflects the military's view that China is India's greatest threat.

Deploying more troops is being seen as an assertion by India that Arunachal Pradesh is not a part of China as Beijing claims.

So, why has this been done?

India wants to match China's forces. Sources say there's an urgency to match China's massive military presence across the border estimated at 3 lakh troops. After this, in Arunachal alone India will have about 1 lakh soldiers. This plan implementation will cost the government Rs 5,000 crore.
All this will take atleast two more years by the NDTV report and even after that the troops strength will be 3:1 in PRC favor. They should have raised those two divsions in 2004 itself.

And wasn't George Fernandes castigated by this self same UPA constituents when he called PRC India's greatest threat in 1998?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by Raju »

Srimad Bhagavatam says in Kalki Purana that a Buddhist nation whose leader is Jin shall attack India. It looks like cards are being moved in that direction. If India wants to match China's forces, why tell NDTV or any media about it. Just do it on the ground, taking it to the media just seems like posturing and some unkil-maskagiri as soon as new govt comes to office.

China is not a friendly country, but if we maintain force superiority quantitative or qualitative, the Chinese will mind their own business on the borders. that's how it has always been. On the other hand if we allow them overt force superiority, they will take it for meekness and our being battle-shy and find out ways & means to leverage that superiority.

the portents are not good.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by Baljeet »

Raju
We will find out the chinese game plan soon. So far they have made alot of noise due to the fact, MMS was a weak PM dependent on Chinese B@ll lickers--CPI(M). Now since commies are cut down to reasonable level, chinese are gonna wait and see what direction MMS takes in next 90 days. If he takes a strong stand and stands by it, Chinese will stop their rhetoric.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by derkonig »

MMS will be just as decisive & iron willed as he was the last time, so there is nothing new on that front. What needs to be seen is when does the panda up the ante & makes the aggression overt.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

X-post...
vsudhir wrote:RD,
This guy is bad news. It seems that with a what it considers to be a pliant pro US govt in place in India, Obama is moving as much as possible to get India to "behave" as the spheres of influence are carved out between China and US in the world.
Broadly agree. Best hope now lies perhaps in the unkil's uncanny ability to screw up its own best laid plans.

Yindia will or can never become as big a USD absorbing receptacle that PRC is and has been.

Also, doubt the US and PRC have dueled it out openly yet. The US's daily weakening (rising bond yields, burgeoning deficits, spate of municipal bankrupctcies in the back of record small business and consumer BK filings etc) only brings the day of open confrontation closer. Khan didn;t get to where he is by being squeamish about playing dirty.

Besides, any world division b/w the next big-2 would leave the fate of Taiwan and Soko/Japan contested onlee.

As long as the next few yrs pass off without yindia committing CRE harakiri, we will live to fight another day. Or so I hope. The law of unintended consequences acting on both US and PRC actions can sink the NPT (and with it the CTBT and CRE wet dreams), lead to breakout testig around the world, Iran going nuclear with wider conflict in the mideast and TSP no longer able to paper over its cancer with bandaid.

GoI has so far pump primed R&D into delivery systems admirably. Admittedly they could have found 101 excuses to shut that off if they were really sold out. That is what gives moi hope Desh's N-interests won't be easily weakened.

Interesting days lie ahead. That is the only certainty, IMHO.
I think the real moves will be on the corrollary to the IUCNA agreement operationalization. BO will try to limit it and GOI will try to retain it.
Lets see how it plays out.

The NPT is already sunk with PRC help to TSP and now NoKo. Whenever a state starts praising a rogue state hoping to limit the behavior is start of instability.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by shiv »

May I ask what relevance this thread has to the forum that cannot go in the Indian Interests thread?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

X-post...

Please read this pdf:

The Fragile Pakistani State: Ally of US and China

Might be good to add to every TSP thread?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by abhiti »

Gerard wrote:The great game is not played so foolishly. China is needlessly provoking potential adversaries years before they are in a position of power. Japanese naval power dwarfs that of China. How will the Japanese react to this proposal? How will India react to this and to the ADB loan veto?
It works both ways, unless you use your power nobody cares. But when you use it you create potential adversaries. But using it also wins potential allies and scares your opponents. As an example Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh don't care much about India as nobody takes Indian threats seriously.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by abhiti »

krithivas wrote:China calls for new global currency
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/China-cal ... &ccode=TBD

While I dont fully understand, and therefore cannot comment on the merits/demerits of the proposal - The vision set-out puts China on track for global leadership. I have not seen an equivalent vision/statement emnating out of their Indian counterparts.

Thanks,
R. Krithivas
Pure hog wash...in reality if China or anyone wants a new "global" currency it can create one today. All it need is to define a currency/commodity basket for itself and manage its assets based on currency basket.

But then implementing such a thing will require China to sell US dollars. Remind me what forces Chinese central bank to keep buying US dollars...aha currency manipulation. Now selling dollars will appreciate yuan (may be 30%) and then export success bubble goes down the drain!

So what China desperately wants is to have fixed exchange rates with every currency instead of market rates which will allow it to reduce dollar exposure while keeping the yuan constant (not possible with market based system).
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

Two pdfs to mull over

Detente between India and China

and

China's Military Posture and New Economic Geopolitics

The last one is more akin to what Shyam Saran was thinking about.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

This is very good summary of the Indo PRC relations. The author had the benefit of interacting with Indian, Chinese and US experts on the subject. Its 230 pages long and worth a read.

Detente between India and China

He met most of India's China experts who are mostly absent by their presence. He then went to PRC and met their experts and on to DC. So gives a good all points appraisal of the subject.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

From this author's POV, US started courting PRC in 1970 and that changed its behavior towards India. So there was a change from before the 1971 war. Also read how PRC coordinated with TSP in all its conflicts except in 1947 as they were busy with their own civil war.

Please read this pdf:

The Fragile Pakistani State: Ally of US and China

An interesting insight into the US fear that Mrs G would take over West Pak and install a pro-India regime that would negate their gains.

I think it is still there and the reluctance to back an India friendly leader in TSP.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

One thing to understand from above pdf, is why did the PRC support the TSP with WMD to get even with the US? As far as we know TSP's obsession is with India and all that support will balance India only.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

From an e-mail
PLAN NAVY CELEBRATES 60TH ANNIVERSARY – FORGING AHEAD OF INDIA

By C Uday Bhaskar


The Chinese navy – or the PLA Navy (PLAN) as it is called celebrated
its 60th anniversary on April 23rd off the eastern port city of
Qingdao at a very impressive international fleet review that was
attended by 14 other nations including India which was represented by
its naval chief.
The very acronym for the Chinese navy – PLAN – is
revealing: the world’s third largest maritime military force is still
referred to as the ‘navy’ of the People’s Liberation Army – and this
choice of semantic is instructive.


From very humble origins on April 23, 1949 when Chairman Mao dwelt on
the importance of naval power – the PLAN that began with the
equivalent of discarded wooden hulls and hierarchically subservient
to the PLA is now a formidable navy. As the recent review revealed,
the PLAN now has a credible nuclear submarine fleet of eight boats –
some with ballistic missile capability – and has now arrived in the
big league, even though it still lacks an aircraft carrier in its
inventory.

This is a remarkable achievement for a nation and a security culture
that has been overwhelmingly skewed in favor of the land forces which
is part of the DNA of most Asian states including India. The last
such instance in which a country acquired a formidable navy in a
relatively short period is the manner in which Admiral Gorshkov built
the Soviet Navy almost single-handed in the face of opposition and
skepticism from the many Marshals of the Red Army during the Cold War.

But perhaps what is even more relevant apropos the PLAN’s 60th
anniversary is the co-relation with India. During a visit to Beijing
in 2003, this author had met some senior PLA military personnel and
analysts at their National Defense University and at the time, my
hosts observed with impassive candor that while China was ahead of
India in every aspect of military capability - it was only in the
naval domain that they lagged behind. But – they added - in all
sincerity – we will bridge this gap soon.


The Qingdao fleet review is in many ways a mini Olympics for the
Beijing leadership and is rich in its complex politico-military
symbolism. The panoply of Chinese naval capability included its
nuclear submarines - the veritable crown jewels – and the major
warships that have been designed and built in China. No nation that
seeks sustained naval credibility can rely on fiscal abundance alone
and has to move from being a buyers navy to one that designs and
builds its own ships in a cost-effective manner. Both India and China
have traversed much the same path over the last five decades by way of
their inventory dependence on the former USSR and now Russia but in
the last eight years, the PLAN has forged ahead with commendable
determination.

In 1961, the Indian Navy (IN) was the most credible and powerful navy
in the Indian Ocean consequent to the British decision to withdraw
from east of the Suez.
The Cold War was yet to enter these waters and
hence neither the US nor the USSR found it necessary to be here in a
sustained manner. At the time in 1961, the IN had one aircraft carrier
– the INS Vikrant and two cruisers – and the PLAN was yet to attain
any credible blue-water capability.

But in 45 years, the PLAN has steamed ahead of the IN and now has
almost thrice the number of total combat vessels (approx 630 ) and a
personnel strength of 225,000 that is five times that of the IN. The
budgetary support is also significantly larger with Beijing having
announced a total military budget of US $ 70 billion for 2009 which is
in contrast to India’s total defence outlay of about $ 26 bn.
The
growth of the PLAN owes as much to the military professionals as to
the political leadership of Deng and his successors who recognized the
inherent trans-border politico-diplomatic leverages that credible
naval power accords to a nation.

Consequently after the end of the Cold War, Beijing concentrated on
adding to its military capacity with Taiwan as the specific focus and
a concurrent emphasis on the lessons learnt from ‘Desert Storm’ - the
brief US led war for Kuwait in January 1991.
The RMA (Revolution in
Military Affairs) was internalized by the entire spectrum of the
Chinese national security apex – including industry and academia – and
due credit must be given to Admiral Liu Huaqing - originally an army
officer who was entrusted with the creation of a credible and modern
PLAN.

The 60th anniversary fleet review is testimony to the perseverance of
Admiral Liu and his political benefactors over two decades and the
PLAN is being nurtured in the manner it is, to equip China to manage
its complex relations with its two principal interlocutors – Japan in
the regional grid and the USA at the global level.
The void apropos
the aircraft carrier will soon be filled and the PLAN will soon be a
presence in the Indian Ocean region.

It is not evident that the growth of the PLAN has received the kind of
high level political attention it warrants in India. From having a
slight edge over the PLAN which it has now lost, the Indian Navy
remains the Cinderella service despite its very commendable pedigree
and professional character.
In the din of the current elections, no
political party has made any meaningful reference to India’s military
requirements and the contrast is striking. Beijing exudes ruthless
clarity about how it proposes to deal with its strategic
interlocutors. India – if the current election din is an indicator –
is determined to remain insular.


Jai ho.
***********************
And recall the USN wanted India to include PLAN in the Malabar Exercises. So most likely its because they want to divert PLAN resources to IN from Pac command?

Maybe the US should allow the PLAN in Diego Garcia for starters.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:One thing to understand from above pdf, is why did the PRC support the TSP with WMD to get even with the US? As far as we know TSP's obsession is with India and all that support will balance India only.
Since China has Tibet it may be thinking that it can play it own version of the great game. It wants a foot inside the corridor and also define the future direction of history.

It will side with the side of the fork of history which will determine the future
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

A series of x-posts to capture thoughts....
brihaspati wrote:There is some speculation now about the future of PRC. One line of thought is inclined towards "organic"/intrincsic dynamics of change within the PRC society that can weaken its "imperialist" attitudes.

Looking at three geopolitical entities of Asia, we can actually clearly recognize a pattern. Russia, China, India. For the first two we know that at least in the more well known, "organized" period of history, the society tended to form unified, centralized, bureaucratic, large empires. Inevitably, there were also attempts at imposition of uniform ideological frameworks, where supreme ideological, political and military authority tended to get concentrated into a small group or an individual. India is quite close the other two in certain periods, but then on other periods it shows distinct and significant departures.

When did the first two societies, Russia and China, go through significant transitions - regime changes, profound changes in political and economic organization? Almost always, such transitions coincide with partial or incomplete defeat/retreat before external aggression or failure in attempt at expansion. Thus, Dmitri Donskoi could form the nucleus of Tsarist Russia only after Russia had been subjugated by the Golden Horde. Same with Peter I. Same in 1905 after the naval defeat at the hands of Japan, or in 1917 after reversals and economic collpase during WWI. The seeds of post Stalinist, Kruschevism also were sown in WWII. Finally, of course the AFG war changed it again.

From each such defeat and retreat, Russia goes back to a reinvention of its format of centralization, consolidation, ideological homogenization, and expansion.

{Quigley also says this but not so clearly. Hence the big surprise in US was the resurgence under Putin.}

In the case of China, Each of its major transitions are accompanied by a previous "barbarian" invasions or retreat of the regime before it. From Shang, to Zhou, to the first emperor from Qin, etc. The pattern persists in the transition through Kublai Khan, the Manchus, the Japanese invasion etc. But each time they have gone back to a reinvention of the pattern of centralization, bureaucratic control, and ideological homogenization. (The earliest spectacular example of ideological homogenization is that by the "first" emperor, who destroyed the "Hundreds" philosophy culture).

India, shows significant tendency for centralization from time to time. But it also shows departures. It primarily divides into four regions. The Indus valley part, the Bengal delta, the north Gangetic Doab, the south of the Vindhyas.

In order to find a common link in all the above phenomena we start with the following paradigm : a compact and closely interrelated geographical unit characterized by the fertile flood plains of a network of perennial rivers, and natural boundaries which impose a distinct weather and climatic pattern distinguished from adjacent territories. Since the external material, 'natural' components of the mode 'of production was a very dominant one ( at the level of pre-modern technologies then existing), geography exerted a fundamental and extremely significant influence. It was the fertile river plains that alone could sustain a large population and hence society in general. But this vety geographical phenomenon also forced an uniformity in the way society developed - the major crops, production technologies, societal organization and structure could not differ much - the rivers also prevented isolation of any one part - they served as very efficient communication and transportation channels. It is this fundamental unity in the material conditions of production that necessitates and gives rise to the tendency towards centralization and the bureaucratic state.

Repeatedly do we find that large empires tend to form along the great river valleys - and the decline of one is always followed by another ( with a considerable time gap sometimes ). Moreover the empires prosper when the state intervenes in and actively promotes agriculture on a wide scale - with the commissioning of irrigation networks, tax reforms etc., - this also requires the significant presence of a bureaucracy ( explicitly involved for this purpose ) - the economic coordination needed cannot be achieved without a certain amount of integration or unification of all the different authorities, the socio-political and ideological structures existing within the society.

The Indian trajectory differs because regional richness of subsystems of rivers in the four regions I mentioned above, can sustain "sub-empires", when climatic conditions are favourable for such formations. When not, they revert to unified, centralized authorities. This also creates the basic tension and dynamics behind the diversity we see, and the underlying unique Indian approach towardd unification and centralization.

By this line of argument, I would see, fundamental changes in the PRC framework only resulting from defeat or retreat in external aggression or expansion. Not otherwise.
and
Chiron wrote:Brihaspati ji,

What about Persia/Iran? They too are the important players in Asian geo-politics since antiquity....
and
brihaspati wrote:Chironji,
I was actually focusing on the Russia-China-India comparison, because of certain questions raised by ramanaji in the GDF threads about PRC.

For most parts of history, I would say the advantages, disadvantages, and tragedy of areas like Ayriia/Eran, or Arabia, stem from being more history's pathways and crossroads - conduits, rather than sources and sinks of economic flows. In the modrn period, both areas almost appear to be "sources" because of their hydrocarbon reserves. But they still are not economic powerhouses - primarily because of lack of natural renewable resources - large pools of human brains, long term persistent climate and weather patterns that permit steady and easier agricultural production, as well as less hostile living environment, etc.

Traditionally these areas sustained themselves as conduits of movement of goods, products, services and human cargo. Only when they could extend their political and military control into the "sources" and "sinks" could they briefly enjoy regional power status. Sooner or later, the "sources/sinks" always learnt form their temporary military advantages and neutralizd the advantage. So the regions went back to square one.

Steady, human usable, agriculturally usable water supplies, climate that favours life-sustaining food production, and the crictical "mass" in the total population of a large pool of brains that can adapt to changing needs and conditions to evolve the most appropriate solutions, wins long term over temporary advantages like a particular form of energy technology or military tactic and hardware.
Wah Wah! Koob bahut koob! Brihaspatiji are you a teacher to lay it out so clearly. A lot of misconceptions got swept away. Will ask a few more questions.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by ramana »

So if your line of thought is correct then PRC has reached it maxima based on Sinic memes? Does their adoption of Marx give them aspirations of manifest destiny?

Answering myself,Marx is ideologically dead and robs one of any hopes or plans for manifest or unmanifest destiny.

To me it looks like PRC is the result of the leap forward of the Chinese society, specifically Han, from the feudal age to the modern age via the vehicle of Maoism. Now that they have reached modernity, quo vadis?

Maoism will whither away and be gradually replaced with an authoritarian setup in which the people are more affluent. The affluence is based on commercial markets in US and strong dollar in which the PRC invested (~$2t before the crash). There will be stress in near future due to US economy contraction and the decline in dollar but in long term might even out. If we go back to Hegel in his "philosophy of history" he is not too optimistic about Chinese culture's advancement. (Specifically he says they dont have imagination) Will modern day China prove him wrong by unleashing the forces keeping its people down? Chinese people are innovative as the next ones given a chance. It was the confusion of Confusism and the 'son of heaven' dogma that kept them bound up.

If traditional values return then the Chinese are not going to be expansionist beyond their natural frontiers. Yes there will be spillover into there sphere of influence in SE Asia. But in Central Asia they have reached their frontiers.

What if they get bit by the manifest destiny bug from a declining US? Will they prove Hegel wrong?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by Suppiah »

Cross posted also in Red Menace thread:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/12/stories ... 651200.htm
The paper described as “wishful thinking” that “gratitude for India’s restraint” in joining the “ring around China” established by the United States and Japan would see China deferring to Indian demands on territorial disputes.
The paper here refers to "People's Daily"...

Attention all Nandigram rapist goons and their yellow media cabals...your paymasters have given clear notice that they are not going to give us any credit for licking their rear orifices and antagonising US in the process, as you guys have been demanding all the while..
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by Rudradev »

Received this via email. Apologies if already posted elsewhere.


Global Times belongs to the People's Daily family, and is part of the Chinese Communist Party. Today's editorial is remarkable for its directness..the editorial gloves, it appears, are off.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/www/english/o ... 36174.html
GLOBAL TIMES, JUNE 11, 2009

EDITORIAL

India’s unwise military moves


In the last few days, India has dispatched roughly 60,000 troops to its border with China, the scene of enduring territorial disputes between the two countries.

J.J. Singh, the Indian governor of the controversial area, said the move was intended to “meet future security challenges” from China. Meanwhile, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh claimed, despite cooperative India-China relations, his government would make no concessions to China on territorial disputes.

The tough posture Singh’s new government has taken may win some applause among India’s domestic nationalists. But it is dangerous if it is based on a false anticipation that China will cave in.

India has long held contradictory views on China. Another big Asian country, India is frustrated that China’s rise has captured much of the world’s attention. Proud of its “advanced political system,” India feels superior to China. However, it faces a disappointing domestic situation which is unstable compared with China’s.

India likes to brag about its sustainable development, but worries that it is being left behind by China. China is seen in India as both a potential threat and a competitor to surpass.

But India can’t actually compete with China in a number of areas, like international influence, overall national power and economic scale. India apparently has not yet realized this.
Indian politicians these days seem to think their country would be doing China a huge favor simply by not joining the “ring around China” established by the US and Japan.

India’s growing power would have a significant impact on the balance of this equation, which has led India to think that fear and gratitude for its restraint will cause China to defer to it on territorial disputes.

But this is wishful thinking, as China won’t make any compromises in its border disputes with India. And while China wishes to coexist peacefully with India, this desire isn’t born out of fear.

India’s current course can only lead to a rivalry between the two countries. India needs to consider whether or not it can afford the consequences of a potential confrontation with China. It should also be asking itself why it hasn’t forged the stable and friendly relationship with China that China enjoys with many of India’s neighbors, like Pakistan, Nepal and Sri Lanka.

Any aggressive moves will certainly not aid the development of good relations with China. India should examine its attitude and preconceptions; it will need to adjust if it hopes to cooperate with China and achieve a mutually beneficial outcome.
Added later: I guess this is the article that is being referred to by the piece that Suppiah posted.
Last edited by ramana on 12 Jun 2009 21:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added quote tags ramana
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India -1

Post by brihaspati »

ramanaji,
So if your line of thought is correct then PRC has reached it maxima based on Sinic memes? Does their adoption of Marx give them aspirations of manifest destiny?
Answering myself,Marx is ideologically dead and robs one of any hopes or plans for manifest or unmanifest destiny.
To me it looks like PRC is the result of the leap forward of the Chinese society, specifically Han, from the feudal age to the modern age via the vehicle of Maoism. Now that they have reached modernity, quo vadis?

Maoism will whither away and be gradually replaced with an authoritarian setup in which the people are more affluent. The affluence is based on commercial markets in US and strong dollar in which the PRC invested (~$2t before the crash). There will be stress in near future due to US economy contraction and the decline in dollar but in long term might even out. If we go back to Hegel in his "philosophy of history" he is not too optimistic about Chinese culture's advancement. (Specifically he says they dont have imagination) Will modern day China prove him wrong by unleashing the forces keeping its people down? Chinese people are innovative as the next ones given a chance. It was the confusion of Confusism and the 'son of heaven' dogma that kept them bound up.
The much stronger geographical factors for centralization in China compared to India always homogenizes and saps the "imagination" part. Centralized authorities are always worried about "imagination" in people. For that means an aspect of human reality no authority can ever hope to fully control : the power and freedom of thoughts inside an individual mind. Therefore we see a constant struggle by centralizers to eliminate such brains from the population. On the other hand, they encourage innovation on practical utility. Thus the Chinese show tremendous curiosity, innovation in tools and instrumentation, technology - but the power of abstraction, imagination, leaping from one paradignm to another - is missing. Both Russia and China have an obvious and significant missing element in their "glorious" history - the lack of profound innovations in philosophy. Even when it exists, it is concerned about practical implementation and consequence for the society only.

For that birth of abstraction and imagination, one needs an internal dynamic of tension between diversity and unification. Diversity and unification drive each other forward in trying to overcome each other, and gives rise to imagination. In Europe, the Mediterranean sea was the geographical context that served the role of perennial rivers, and the Alpine fissures and smaller perennial rivers provided the "sub-empire" context. Right from the earliest period, they have faced the same dynamic of tension between diversity and unification. In this sense, India and Europe are unique in making that "imagination leap". The differences between the two stem from the difference in scale of operations and the relative weakness of natural productivity in the European arena.
If traditional values return then the Chinese are not going to be expansionist beyond their natural frontiers. Yes there will be spillover into there sphere of influence in SE Asia. But in Central Asia they have reached their frontiers.
What if they get bit by the manifest destiny bug from a declining US? Will they prove Hegel wrong?
So if your line of thought is correct then PRC has reached it maxima based on Sinic memes? Does their adoption of Marx give them aspirations of manifest destiny?
China's problem wil be exactly that Hegel refers to - the lack of imagination. The next stage in China's way forward would have been to get rid of the CCP, and install an authoritarian "democracy" a la Putin, or the dynastic regimes in Singapore. The crucial switchover would depend on the PLA. Problem is, PLA has not faced any serious reverses or defeats in open engagement. It is also perhaps being pumped up with resources to keep the commanders happy and within CCP leash. Increasingly, as the political relevance of CCP in the radical acpitalist framework being developed within China, decreases, the regime will depend more and more on the PLA. PLA not just as a power to bolster the regime in Tiananmen style showdowns, but PLA itself as basis of the Chinese nation. Over time this gives rise to a curious situation not unknown in Chinese history. That of the military being allowed to advance toa certain extent and then undermined by the mandarins of court. This is usually the time when China becomes vulnerable to "barbarians".

China thinks it is invincible. It always thought so just before it retreated and fell before "barbarians".
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It should also be asking itself why it hasn’t forged the stable and friendly relationship with China that China enjoys with many of India’s neighbors, like Pakistan, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
Maybe India should be asking itself why it hasn’t forged the stable and friendly relationship with many of China’s neighbors, like Taiwan, Japan, Mongolia, Vietnam.
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ramana wrote:So if your line of thought is correct then PRC has reached it maxima based on Sinic memes? Does their adoption of Marx give them aspirations of manifest destiny?
Answering myself,Marx is ideologically dead and robs one of any hopes or plans for manifest or unmanifest destiny.
What if they get bit by the manifest destiny bug from a declining US? Will they prove Hegel wrong?
Ramana-saar,
"Imagination" is a wrong yardstick to measure the propensity of the Chinese to expand, wage wars or attempt to dominate regional challngers and/or perceived threats.

Let us consider the scenario that we get into a conflict with the chinese. Where would the origins be ?

A. If India demonstrates sustained growth which matches, surpasses or threatens (through trade, acquisition of raw materials, acquisition of export markets) Chinese economy, the PRC political leadership will initiate a war.

B. If a combination of events, amplified by the media or simply a red herring drummed up to distract the population from some other domestic setback, stokes the nationalist feeling of the PRC populace, the PRC populace (by giving the political leadership no choice) will be the one to initiate conflict with India.

A: Arises because of the single minded nature of the party to hold on to power. The failure of the commies to demonstrate less than remarkable growth when compared to the rest of the world was factor no 1 for tinamen protests (we are neither rich nor free, what has the party given us ?). That is the root of the single minded determination to demonstrate growth and prosperity for the populace, who now firmly believe that the Chinese political system is the best in the world as far as economic progress is concerned. If the chaotic, free, democratic India matches or surpasses them, the party *will* feel threatened.

B. Arises because the party cleverly substituted nationalism rather than communism as the unifying idealogy of the populace. By drumming up constant external threats (Taiwan, Japan, India, US, Russia) the populace is kept united and minor transgressions of the party is forgiven. This is potentially an explosive tinderbox (recent anti-Dalai sentiment could easily have become anti India sentiment with no recourse to moderation, thereby forcing the party to act).

Now the lack of Imagination as a stumbling block to progress to the "next level" is a red herring. It has to be considered in conjunction with a lack of regional challengers, the aging demographic of the current powers (Europe, USA, Japan) and future prospects for china *within* the current political system. It has to be considered in conjunction with India, Korea and Southeast Asian states, and their ability to grow and propensity to challenge the Chinese and vigorously compete with them for influence and resources in lands as far as Africa.
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Anujan, All exapansionist powers in history had imagination driving them. Right now West is at crux of history after dropping the strait jacket of religion over state thru the process of Renaissiance->Reformation->Enlightenment->Modernism->post Modernism. They are now facing the monolith and need to change the paradigm. The two Asian powers Russia and PRC have jumped on this train thinking that will reach the destination. Russia has jumped of that train and is seeking its own way. I don't see PRC doing that at this time. You need imagination to see what the destination is and if you don't like it to create your one utopia otherwise it will become distopia.

All these powers grew by adopting and adapting doctrines from out of their sphere. The adopted doctrines have taken them only so far and no farther. Will they discard and create new paradigms?

To see where Europe is seeking look at pattern of German philosophers of last ~300-400 years.

This might be OT in this topic but for your own knowledge please try to read a few parts of this lengthy book.


An awesome book in Google books:

JL Mehta: Heidigger, Hermenutics and Indian tradition
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ramana
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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R Vaidya wrote:Dealing with Declining Empires


http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/prin ... jiEhUwlVY=


The lost horizon of the emperors

By R Vaidyanathan
21 Jun 2009 11:27:00 PM IST

AT every seminar on financial matters these days, there’s one question that lingers — even during the coffee breaks: will the economy recover, and when? And, it isn’t about the Indian economy but that of the US. I reiterate it will take at least 40 quarters — that’s a decade — for America to recover. I tell this, and am shunned — like a swine flu patient.

I still maintain the US is going the banana republic way what with a national debt of more than $10 trillion, which is more than 80 per cent of its national income. Not only that the budget deficit is skyrocketing; it’s expected to reach more than 10 per cent soon. Last year, the US financial regulatory agencies came up with plans of financial support worth $6.8 trillion — comprising temporary loans and liability and asset guarantees. And by the third end of the first quarter of 2009, the financial support programmes reached $13.9 trillion.

The federal deficit as percentage of GDP is now expected to reach more than 10 per cent. There will be furious printing of more treasury bills and notes. The expected inflation is going to rip apart the society and the largest selling item in the last quarter was handguns and rifles. Already intriguing reports have come about attempt to smuggle more than $134 billion in treasury bonds by two Japanese citizens through the Italian border into Switzerland. It could be a ploy by CIA or really a daredevil act by some foreign government to destabilise the global financial system. I am waiting for the creditrating agencies like S&P to downgrade the US economy like other developing countries and prove their independence from the sole superpower. High hopes. Angus Maddison in his pioneering work for OECD on the global GDP share for the last 2,000 years has brought out an interesting fact pertaining to India and China. As early as the 1820s, China (33%) along with India (16%) and other Asian countries had a share of more than 55 per cent in the global GDP. By the late 20th century, it has declined to 29 per cent. The China percentage slid to 12, India’s to 5.

In the next 20 years, India should plan to have a share of at least 30 per cent of the global GDP. These imply that India should be racing ahead. If India grows at 8 to 9 per cent in the coming decade, then it can become the world’s third or fourth superpower.
But it also implies that, parallely, the West should decline in terms of their importance in the share of global GDP and world affairs.
Since the total is 100 per cent, any increased share for India and China would automatically reduce that of the other two.

Unlike the Great Depression of the 1920s, the current crisis for the West is not just an economic crisis. It has a dimension of demography and conflict (ongoing war with radical Islam) to it. Demographic, because Europe is slowly fading away from the global map. It used to have more than 20 per cent of the global population during the First World War, and now has less than 11 per cent. What’s more, it’s expected to shrink to three per cent in as many decades.

The reproductive rate in many European countries is less than 1.5, whereas the stable one is 2.1. In the case of US, the crisis is more severe due to its declining savings rate and a long-term tendency to nationalise families and privatise government.
Social security and Medicare system in US is classic case of nationalising families.


Such a declining Empire is dangerous to deal with. To start with, it does not want to accept the fact that it is a declining Empire. Plus, it wants to retain its sole power status when it realises that its writ does not any more hold good. It tries to bully India.
Whenever a US official visits India, the beards in J&K become more active. Remember Robin Raphael of the nineties vintage who propped up the Hurriyat Conference? India recalls with anger the role Robin Raphael played during the Presidency of Bill Clinton in encouraging the formation of Hurriyat Conference, the umbrella organisation of moderate terrorists and terrorised moderates. Her only name to fame was she studied together with Clinton. When Hillary comes to India, the level of violence in J&K will increase. I wish someone in foreign office in India plots the correlation between visits of US officials and mob frenzy in the downtown Srinagar.
The declining empire realises that its elbowroom is becoming lesser and lesser with the Pakistan army that owns and controls a country. Islamabad always has a peculiar way of coming to discussion on any issue.
They keep a gun on their own head and argue with others. That is, they always threaten others with catastrophe if money is not given to them. This is the most sophisticated begging anywhere you can see in international relations. Bribing them won’t stop the plotters against the “US Satan”.
The next thing the declining empire does is to cringe and appease. The speech by Obama in Cairo is of that variety. He ascribed every human scientific endeavor to Islamic civilisation. Forget the Hindus who invented zero, forget Ptolemy and forget Copernicus. Just rewrite history. The third thing a declining power does is to pressure others to sacrifice on its behalf to buy peace with bullies. It cannot deal with radical Islam and if the ISI (that is what is critical — not the ten per cent Zardari) needs to be appeased with a piece of J&K, then the US will try to arm-twist India.
Herein comes our ability to understand declining powers.
We must internalise that US is a declining power and our bureaucrats must chant it hundred eight times on a daily basis. We should also remember that USA is very uncomfortable in dealing with democracies.

It’s natural ally is always a dictatorship since they can be “use and throw” friendships.
Dealing with democracies is messy since they talk about a domestic constituency and behave similar to USA. A mirror image of itself is unacceptable to “sole super power”. As India continues to grow at more than 8 per cent — and simply due to the power of compounding emerges as a major power — the desperation of the declining power will be more since our terrorist neighbour who has a the largest begging bowl and highest per-capita AK-47s will blackmail the declining power to appease him to keep peace.
What is in Indian interest is the continuation of civil war in Pakistan for, say, another ten to twenty years — ambient conflict — sort of auto-cannibalism which will be a dynamic disequilibria — situation.
Other option is to have at least three or so states created out of that entity. The concept of stable Pakistan is passé and a mirage and that should be unequivocally communicated to the declining empire.


Remember the last century. The declining British Empire — now it is the sick child of Europe but still with a grand illusion of influencing Indian sub-continent — created havoc by partitioning the land. The current declining empire may be tempted to do something rash to protect itself. And therein lays the challenge for our political leadership and mandarins. Dealing with a declining empire is more difficult than dealing with a stable empire.
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From Ram Narayan
Two important articles have just been published on the India-China rivalry, the border issue, the Indian Ocean and Asian stability:

the first by Sreeram Chaulia in THE GLOBALIST of June 22 titled, "Sino-Indian Rivalry and Asian Stability" and

the second by Jeff Smith in THE WALL STREET JOURNAL of June 24 titled, "The China-India Border Brawl."

Sreeram Chaulia makes the following points:

**Just as Sino-Japanese relations have been described as ”hot economics, cold politics,” Sino-Indian political ties are headed for showdowns and skirmishes.

**The only option for India to prevent the Chinese navy from taking over the Indian Ocean is to ramp up its own naval capabilities and ensure that friendly navies in Southeast and East Asia do not get overshadowed by their Chinese counterpart.

**A nexus between the United States and China is a formula for managed chaos in Asia under the Chinese thumb.

**The lowered priority that the Obama Administration has accorded to India compared to China raises the spectre of a U.S.-China entente to erect barriers to Indian ambitions.

**Unless the Obama Administration consciously discards policies which embolden China to escalate its aggressive designs against India, Asia cannot achieve elusive continental strategic stability.

Jeff Smith’s piece, while discussing the historical background of the border issue between China and India, China’s effort to surround India with its "string of pearls" and the strident tone of China’s recent behavior, concludes as follows:

**What is Washington’s role in this Asian rivalry? In the short term, a priority must be to tamp down friction over the border. In the longer term, Washington should leverage its friendly relations with both capitals to promote bilateral dialogue and act as an honest broker where invited. But it should also continue to build upon the strategic partnership with India initiated by former president George W. Bush, and support its ally, as it did at the Nuclear Suppliers group and the ADB, where necessary. Washington must also make clear that it considers the established, decades-old border between the two to be permanent.

**Most importantly, though, the Sino-Indian border dispute should be viewed as a test for proponents of China’s "peaceful rise" theory. If China becomes adventurous enough to challenge India’s sovereignty or cross well-defined red lines, Washington must be willing to recognize the signal and respond appropriately.

Both the articles are reproduced in full below.

Ram Narayanan
US-India Friendship
http://usindiafriendship.net/

http://www.sreeramchaulia.net/Sino-IndiaNavy.pdf

THE GLOBALIST, 6/22/2009

Sino-Indian Rivalry and Asian Stability

By Sreeram Chaulia

The lowered priority that the Obama Administration has accorded to India compared to China is causing deep unease in Indian strategic circles. As Sreeram Chaulia explains, the conceptualization of wide-ranging geostrategic cooperation between Washington and Beijing is a rude awakening to New Delhi’s dream of being a strategic partner of the United States to counterbalance China.

The lowered priority that the Obama Administration has accorded to India compared to China in its first few months in office is causing deep unease in Indian strategic circles. It raises the spectre of a U.S.-China entente to erect barriers to Indian ambitions of climbing up the totem pole of the international system.

Underlying the Indian discomfort is the harbouring of designs by some Washington policy gurus of a ”G2” (Group of Two) between the United States and China to cope with global problems, including mediation in South Asia to solve the India-Pakistan dispute. India considers South Asia to be its equivalent of Russia’s ”near abroad” or sphere of influence and is loath to any Chinese or American interference there.

The conceptualization of wide-ranging geostrategic cooperation between Washington and Beijing is a rude awakening to New Delhi’s dream of being a strategic partner of the United States to counterbalance China. China and the United States becoming joint arbiters of South Asia is an even bitterer pill to swallow for India.

Adding to India’s wariness are revelations by its naval chief, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, that a top Chinese Navy official offered to divide the Pacific Ocean between China and the United States once Beijing launches its own fleet of aircraft carriers.

The breadth of this grand bargain was spelt out by the Chinese officer to the chief of the U.S. Pacific Command as follows: “You, the United States, take Hawaii East and we, China, will take Hawaii West and the Indian Ocean. Then you will not need to come to the western Pacific and the Indian Ocean and we will not need to go to the Eastern Pacific. If anything happens there, you can let us know and if something happens here, we will let you know.”

Obvious in this scheme is the allocation of an ocean named after the pre-eminent power along its waters, India, to China. The context of this daring thought from Chinese military planners is their ongoing aircraft carrier building program. Unlike India, China does not yet have aircraft carriers. But it is well on its way to constructing multiple naval carriers that can be operational by 2020.

China’s goal of ruling not only the East and South China Seas but also the Indian Ocean can only succeed if it manages to secure a “deal” with the United States on the lines disclosed by Admiral Mehta.

Assuming that Chinese economic growth and military modernization will remain ahead of India in the coming decade, Beijing has only one obstacle to prevent it from becoming the prime littoral power on Asian waves — the U.S. Navy.

The Chinese Navy’s breathtaking future planning is in line with its mantra of “peaceful rise,” wherein it will not engage the U.S. Navy in worldwide competition, provided the latter allows it to flex its muscles in the Indian Ocean and tie down India in its backyard. China’s rise would be “peaceful” only insofar as it would avoid confrontation with the U.S. Navy, while being gunboat-like when it comes to dealing with the Indian Navy or navies of Southeast Asian countries.

The Chinese plan of striking an agreement with the United States on their respective portions of the Pacific Ocean is reminiscent of the Tordesillas Accord of 1494 between Spain and Portugal, the pre-eminent seafaring superpowers of that time.

In this understanding, areas to the west of a demarcation line in the Atlantic Ocean (South America) belonged to Spain, while areas to its east (Africa) were to be the exclusive preserve of Portugal. The history of European colonization in subsequent centuries got its specific characteristics by virtue of this G2-like bargain to carve out the world without the imperial powers having to clash directly.

The chances of a Sino-U.S. condominium appear brighter in the context of a long global economic crisis. Washington’s dependence on what economist Paul Krugman labels the “T-Bills Republic,” China, is so absolute for preserving the reserve currency status of the dollar and financing huge budgetary deficits that the Obama Administration cannot afford to displease its largest creditor. In this scenario, Delhi’s misplaced faith in an India-U.S. strategic partnership to enable India’s rise as an equal of China could undergo a quick burial.

Apparently, the U.S. Pacific Command chief politely turned down the Chinese offer of dividing the oceans. But continued economic decline is likely to lead to a drawdown of American naval and overall military presence around the world in coming years. In the medium run, a coexistence covenant with China on the high seas of Asia may get the American nod due to exhaustion of Washington’s capacity to project power globally.

India will then have to contend with a rapidly expanding Chinese navy with no one but itself to fall back upon. Russia has its own anxieties about Chinese naval expansion, but its fleet is far too distant from the Indian Ocean to enter into alliance with the Indian navy.

The only option for India to prevent the Chinese navy from taking over the Indian Ocean and possibly renaming it the “South West China Sea” is to ramp up its own naval capabilities and ensure that friendly navies in Southeast and East Asia do not get overshadowed by their Chinese counterpart.

However healthy the economic relations are between India and China at present, armed conflict between the two cannot be ruled out in the future due to the expansionist naval maneuverings of the latter and the unresolved territorial dispute between the two. If one adds to this mix the gap in economic growth rates, wherein China could continue to surge ahead of India, an arms race and perpetual tension are guaranteed.

Just as Sino-Japanese relations have been described as ”hot economics, cold politics,” Sino-Indian political ties are headed for showdowns and skirmishes. In the event of a U.S.-China pact, Delhi will have no one to rely on if it is attacked by a belligerent Chinese navy and/or army.

This proposition is not far-fetched if one follows Chinese military journals and communist party mouthpieces. A recent editorial in the party-run People’s Daily warned India not to live in “false anticipation that China will cave in” and chided India for “not yet realizing that India can’t actually compete with China in a number of areas, like international influence, overall national power and economic scale.”

A nexus between the United States and China is a formula for managed chaos in Asia under the Chinese thumb. It sows the seeds for a hurtling collision between power-drunk China and anxious India.

Wars during economic depressions are not uncommon, even between countries with hitherto booming bilateral trade. Unless the Obama Administration consciously discards policies which embolden China to escalate its aggressive designs against India, Asia cannot achieve elusive continental strategic stability.

Sreeram Chaulia is associate professor of world politics at the Jindal Global Law School in Sonipat, India.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124578881101543463.html

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, June 24, 2009

The China-India Border Brawl

By Jeff M. Smith

The peaceful, side-by-side rise of China and India has been taken for granted in many quarters. But tensions between the two giants are mounting, and Washington would do well to take note. On June 8, New Delhi announced it would deploy two additional army divisions and two air force squadrons near its border with China. Beijing responded furiously to the Indian announcement, hardening its claim to some 90,000 square kilometers of Indian territory that China disputes.

To understand what the tussle is about, consider recent history: The defining moment in the Sino-Indian relationship is a short but traumatic war fought over the Sino-Indian border in 1962. The details of that conflict are in dispute, but the outcome is not: After a sweeping advance into Indian territory, China gained control over a chunk of contested Tibetan plateau in India’s northwest but recalled its advancing army in India’s northeast, leaving to New Delhi what is now the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh. Relations have been characterized by mistrust ever since, but neither nation has shown any inclination to return to armed conflict

In recent years however China has been raising the temperature at the border. Chinese claims to Arunachal Pradesh and frequent Chinese "incursions" into the nearby Indian state of Sikkim have begun to multiply in line with Beijing’s rising economic and political influence. Moreover, unlike India, China has methodically developed its infrastructure along the disputed border, littering the barren terrain with highways and railways capable of moving large numbers of goods and troops.

For its part, New Delhi has become both increasingly aware of its disadvantage and exceedingly suspicious of China’s intentions. India’s June 8 announcement that it will deploy two additional army mountain divisions to the northeastern state of Assam will bring India’s troop levels in the region to more than 100,000. The Indian Air Force, meanwhile, announced it will station two squadrons of advanced Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft in Tezpur, also in Assam. They will be complemented by three Airborne Warning and Control Systems and the addition or upgrade of airstrips and advanced landing stations. This is part of a broader effort to bolster India’s military and transportation infrastructure in its neglected northeast.

Upon hearing India’s plans, Beijing became irate. The People’s Daily, a Communist Party mouthpiece that serves as a window into the thinking of Beijing’s insular leadership, published an exceptional broadside against New Delhi on June 11. It described India’s "tough posture" as "dangerous," and asked India to "consider whether or not it can afford the consequences of a potential confrontation with China." China is not afraid of India, the editorial taunted, while mocking India for failing to keep pace with China’s economic growth. The editorial reminded New Delhi that Beijing had friends in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Nepal but most importantly, it left no doubt about Beijing’s future position on Arunachal Pradesh: "China won’t make any compromises in its border disputes with India."

This is not the first time China has lost its cool over the border issue. Back in 2006, China’s Ambassador to India ignited a political firestorm when he declared the "whole state of Arunachal Pradesh is Chinese territory... we are claiming all of that. That is our position." Later, on two separate occasions, China denied visas to Indian officials from Arunachal Pradesh, explaining Chinese citizens didn’t require visas to travel to their own country.

Generally coy about its suspicions, India has been turning up the diplomatic heat. Indian officials have been speaking more openly about their concerns with China of late. A growing chorus in New Delhi is arguing that India’s uniform focus on Pakistan may be exposing it to a threat from the East. Indian officials have also accused China of supporting the Naxalites, a tenacious and growing band of Maoist insurgents Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has described as the "greatest threat to [India’s] internal security."

China has been applying pressures as well. This March, China broke with Asian tradition and tried to block a $2.9 billion loan to India at the Asian Development Bank, furious that the loan would fund a $60 million flood-management program in Arunachal Pradesh. (Last week China was overruled with help from the U.S., and the loan went through.) Before that, Beijing clumsily attempted to torpedo the U.S.-India nuclear deal from its seat at the Nuclear Suppliers Group. And of course, China remains an opponent of India’s bid to join the United Nations Security Council and a staunch ally of India’s nemesis, Pakistan.

But what riles India most is China’s incursion into its backyard and the belief China is surrounding the subcontinent with its "string of pearls" -- Chinese "investments" in naval bases, commercial ports and listening posts along the southern coast of Asia. There are port facilities in Bangladesh and radar and refueling stations in Burma. Thailand, Cambodia and Pakistan now all host Chinese "projects;" China’s crown jewel is the Pakistani deepwater port of Gwadar.

Then there are Sri Lanka and Nepal, India’s immediate neighbors, where civil wars have opened space for Beijing to peddle influence. A bloody insurgency by Maoist rebels in Nepal gave way in 2006 to power-sharing agreement now on the brink of collapse. China has openly supported the Maoists against the royalist establishment backed by India. In Sri Lanka, meanwhile, the decades-long civil war between the Hindu Tamil minority and the Buddhist Sinhalese majority was decisively ended by the latter May, but not before Beijing could gain a foothold in the island-nation. Appalled by the brutality of the fighting, India had scaled back its arms sales to Colombo in recent years. China happily filled the vacuum, in return gaining access to the port at Hambontota on the island’s southern coast.

What is Washington’s role in this Asian rivalry? In the short term, a priority must be to tamp down friction over the border. In the longer term, Washington should leverage its friendly relations with both capitals to promote bilateral dialogue and act as an honest broker where invited. But it should also continue to build upon the strategic partnership with India initiated by former president George W. Bush, and support its ally, as it did at the Nuclear Suppliers group and the ADB, where necessary. Washington must also make clear that it considers the established, decades-old border between the two to be permanent.

Most importantly, though, the Sino-Indian border dispute should be viewed as a test for proponents of China’s "peaceful rise" theory. If China becomes adventurous enough to challenge India’s sovereignty or cross well-defined red lines, Washington must be willing to recognize the signal and respond appropriately.

Mr. Smith is the Kraemer Strategy Fellow at the American Foreign Policy Council.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Op-Ed in Deccan Chronicle, 25 june 2009
No military alliancesJune 26th, 2009
By Arun Kumar Singh Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited the little known city of Yekaterinburg, Russia, on June 16-17 for the first stand-alone summit of Bric (Brazil, Russia, India and China) countries and the six-nation Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) summit.
Russia, for the first time, ensured that observer status nations like India, Iran, Mongolia and Pakistan also attend SCO’s main meetings. Nearly eight months after the Mumbai terror attacks took place, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari met in the sidelines.

I visited Yekaterinburg few years ago. This small industrial city is famous for three things. After the October Revolution in 1917, the Czar and his family were brutally executed here and a national highway, built in Soviet times, runs over the exact spot of the killing, though a small church was built next to the “highway execution spot” after the collapse of the USSR. This is in keeping with the Russian tradition of building churches wherever innocent blood has been spilt. The second reason is that during World War II, the Soviets relocated numerous weapon-producing factories to this region to prevent them from falling into the hands of the advancing German Army. Even today this region has a very heavy concentration of weapon-producing factories. Yekaterinburg is also famous for its truly distinctive vodka which compensates for the harsh weather conditions and the remote location.

Dr Singh, the first Indian Prime Minister to attend SCO summit, said, “My decision to attend the summit is a reflection of the high regard we have for Russia’s presidency of the SCO”. Notwithstanding some Indians expressing their irritation with the Russians for hiking up weapon prices after signing contracts, the fact remains that Russia is a strategic partner for India with reference to weapons, energy supplies (including Sakhalin oil and nuclear power plants), space exploration etc. The Russian economy, buoyed by its oil industry, has made it an important player in global affairs, though it is far from being a superpower like the erstwhile USSR.

On June 16, 2009, the 40-minute Dr Singh-Mr Zardari meeting obviously took place after some US prodding. Though Dr Singh conveyed his tough “end terror coming from Pakistan” message in front of the media, this meeting, like countless others since 1947, was a waste of time. The fact remains that the civilian leadership of Pakistan can take no decisions on Indo-Pak relations without the approval of the Pakistan Army.

The real importance of the various meetings in Yekaterinburg lies in the four-nation Bric, founded in 2003, as a loose economic group. These nations together comprise 25 per cent of the global landmass, 40 per cent of the global population and are expected to dominate the world economy by 2050, with India and China providing finished products and services, and Russia (oil, gas) along with Brazil (oil, iron ore, soya) providing raw materials and some finished products, like Russian military hardware, nuclear power plants and Brazilian Embraer-type jet airliners.

It is indeed ironic that despite having a major border dispute and adversarial relationship with China, Indo-Chinese trade continues to grow very impressively (as do Indo-Chinese military exercises), while Indo-Russian trade, despite excellent relations, is limited to defence, energy and space exploration. Similarly, Indo-Brazilian trade has a lot of room for improvement. Incidentally, in 2008 Brazil discovered huge offshore oilfields (estimated at 50-80 billion barrels of light crude), making it the “oil superpower of the future”.

The six-nation SCO (China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) was officially founded in 2001 as an inter-governmental mutual-security organisation to deal with Central Asian security issues like “terrorism, extremism and separatism”. Its members regularly conduct bilateral military exercises. India, Iran, Pakistan and Mongolia have observer status in the SCO. While Iran and Pakistan are keen to become its members, India and Mongolia are not so keen. Sri Lanka and Belarus were granted dialogue-partner status in 2009. India is wary of joining any military grouping that may adversely affect its growing “strategic” relationship with the US which is in nascent form.

In my opinion, even though the charter of the SCO is not aimed at any other nation, India must not become a full member of this anti-terror organisation till China stops its anti-India activities (including its recent abortive attempt to block a $2.9 billion Asian Development Bank loan to India because one of the projects was to be set up in Arunachal Pradesh). And in any case, India already conducts bilateral military exercises with Russia and China (and with the US, Japan, UK, France, Singapore etc). And since India has a stake in the stability of the oil-rich Central Asian Republics (CAR), it could start conducting bilateral counter-terror exercises with the other four members of the SCO.

India could additionally “co-ordinate” its anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden and off Mauritius by officially allowing Indian warships to exchange and share information with the Kuala Lumpur Piracy Reporting Centre and warships from regional navies, as well as those from the US, European Union, Russia, Japan, Malaysia and South Korea. These “coordinated” activities will enable more effective patrolling and could gradually be expanded to cover the Indian Ocean Region with regard to countering maritime terror, gun running, drug trafficking, human trafficking and also to provide humanitarian assistance in case of disasters. The Indian Coast Guard, the only maritime force with counter-marine pollution capability in South Asia, could be included in this quest for “safer and cleaner seas”, since deliberate or accidental large-scale marine pollution will adversely impact fishing and tourism industries. The aim is to make India safer and more conducive for trade and prosperity without getting into military alliances.

* Vice-Admiral Arun Kumar Singh retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam
There is an element of mixed emotions on part of the writer. How does he call the 'strategic' partnership with US which is preventing India from upgrading tis ties with others? The partnership is going no where and is used as a threat to prevent pursuit of other interests.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Sanjay M »

ramana
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

Game is spilling over.

X-post....
shravan wrote:Dollar Out in Brazil-China Trade. Real and Yuan In
http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/10868/1/
Tuesday, 30 June 2009

"We have reached an initial understanding and we will begin working on the issue" to use the real and the yuan in bilateral trade said a spokesperson for the Brazilian Central Bank.
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.
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"For the US dollar to be left aside as an international reserve currency there must be another currency which must perform that role," Meirelles said quoted by the Folha de S. Paulo. The Brazilian official also anticipated that there are similar discussions with India to replace the US dollar for the real and the rupee in bilateral trade.

=====================
China Plans to Start Yuan Settlement With Asean Soon
June 30 (Bloomberg)
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China, the world’s third-biggest economy, is seeking to make it easier for companies to do business in yuan and to expand trade with so-called Golden Triangle nations after the global recession choked sales to the U.S. and Europe. Chinese officials, including President Hu Jintao, have called for reducing its dependence on the dollar and the creation of a new global reserve currency.

The People’s Bank of China has agreed to provide 650 billion yuan ($95 billion) to Argentina, Belarus, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia and South Korea through so-called currency- swaps. Yesterday, the central bank signed an agreement with Hong Kong to allow the settlement of cross-border trade in yuan.
This will have ramifications on the BRIC formulation. I know its supposed to be CBRI or some other acronym. And C is part of G2 after the crash. I think we are seeng geopolitical fallout whihc will appear more clearly in future.

CB + RI with US in background.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Gerard »

Courting The Dragon
By Brahma Chellaney
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by sukhdeo »

Gerard wrote:Courting The Dragon
By Brahma Chellaney
Chelleney says "The point is that India's role will not diminish in Asia just because the Obama administration fails to appreciate its larger strategic importance. "

What makes him think so ? Are trends pointing to India playing a larger or more significant role in Asia ? Vis-a-vis who ? China ? Japan ? US ? Australia ? Europe ? Iran ? Arabs ? Russians ? ASEAN ? BD ? Nepal ? Ceylon ? How about vis-a-vis Pakis ? I mean, has any of the bilateral power equations(economically, militarily, diplomatically or a combination) mentioned above changed in favor of India in the last 50 years ? 30 years ? 20 years ? 10 years?

I have the greatest respect for Challeney. I think he is one of the clearest thinkers in India and cuts through to the heart of the issue most of the time. But this time, in my view, he got caught up in some wishful thinking.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by LHouse »

"Mrs. Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State, hardly mentioned them in public during her visit to Beijing from February 20 to 22, 2009. She attended a Church service at Beijing apparently to underline continuing US interest in the question of religious freedom in China, but avoided any comments on allegations that the Chinese authorities, while welcoming her visit to a church, took care to prevent any Christian dissenters from having interactions with her at the church. The normal expressions of concern over China's military spending too were equally muted."

This sums it all up, she is an american diplomat, america always puts it interests first, when she was with her husband and they were fetted by india she was one way now she is another. Never make politics personal, it is about interests, nothing else, america has interests, not freinds.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from the "Sharm-el-Sheikh Harikiri" Thread.
somnath wrote:RajeshA, there is not going to be an "armed conflict" between US and China, or for that matter between India and China, in the foreseeable future..All three are rational countries with much to lose (as opposed to Pak)..
I am pretty sure, there will be no conflict between USA and PRC. I can't say, that I share your optimism about peace between India & PRC. It is not for nothing, that many fear the potential political instability in PRC. PRC has been able to put a lid on many sorts of internal conflicts, simply through a heavy hand and run-away growth. As run-away growth based on an engine of low-cost exports to the world comes down, perhaps as a consequence of India taking over some of the manufacturing demand of the world, there is bound to be growing discontent in PRC. Up till now, India has made more leaps in the field of services, and has not challenged Chinese supremacy in manufacturing, but we want to do that. How the show between PLA and CPC plays out is unknown? There have been noises in the Indian strategic community wrt a possible Indo-Chinese conflict in 2012. It may not happen in 2012, but the reasons for it to happen sometime are still there.

India needs the free space to be able to avoid such a conflict. As such India should remain wary of USA's manipulative capacity.
somnath wrote:What there will be is a massive jostling for space - and the current balance in Asia will force the Chinese into conflict situations with the US (over Taiwan, Korea, Japan, SEA, potentially over ME)..India, as I described above, is a "tilt" power..So it has the option to move either way and exploit the advantages..But as I said sometime back, India has strategic conflict with China with tactical divergences, and just the reverse with the US...While we cooperate with China on things like climate change, our long term objective would be to decisively cut China down to size in Asia....US on our side would be, for obvious reasons, the big silver bullet..
I agree with most of this, but there is a need to stress a different side to the issue.

We need the strategic space not to be pulled in a conflict between USA and PRC. We also need the strategic capacity to win a conflict against the Chinese decisively, should it come to that, and USA's support, which goes beyond a few platitudes would be welcome. What we don't want is that USA makes an Indo-Chinese conflict imperative and unavoidable through the manipulation of facts on the ground or through influencing our foreign policy making. We don't want to be on drugs and steroids sold by America. We need a clear head. We need Independence in Foreign Policy Making, something not as obvious as its seems.
somnath wrote:therefore, it is in our interest to enmesh US in a range of commercial and political engagements that would dramatically increase the "stake" of the US in India..
Stake is fine.

America's stake in India would be considered 'positive' only as long as India's natural behavior according to India's values and strategic interests is considered by the US to have a substantial net benefit to it, either directly bilaterally or in the management of the world order conducive to American interests, or shaping a strategic landscape which increases American options and leverage; and America decides to increase India's capacity to 'produce' India's natural behavior, and not undermine it for tactical or other reasons.

However if America decides to wield its 'leverage' attained through commercial and political engagements to sway India to contradict India's natural behavior, to go against Indian strategic interests to please USA, to take some or all the punches meant for America, then that 'leverage' is unwelcome.

So let's not beat about the bush and say American leverage in India will not increase as we increase commercial and political engagements with USA. India is not in a far off corner of the world. India is right in the middle of all geo-political churning in the world - next to PRC and next to Islam. As such the temptation to use that 'leverage' will also be great.

So American 'stake' in India's natural behavior and influence is welcome, but American 'leverage' to change it or dictate it is not. The management of these challenges of pulls and pushes constitutes the crux of India's Foreign Policy wrt USA.

As such all commercial and political engagement with USA should go through this Quality Assurance testing.
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BBC Article on US-PRC tensions in the South China Sea

Post by Skratu »

Here is a recent article on US-PRC tensions in the South China Sea by Iskander Rehman on BBC Vietnam:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/vietnamese/world/ ... tary.shtml

You will find the translation on his blog at:

http://indiangeopolitics.blogspot.com/
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by NRao »

NRao
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by NRao »

A cautionary tale from China
Raiding his own company's Beijing headquarters with the help of lawyers and a police escort was not what Heinz Zuercher had in mind when he agreed in March to take over as chief executive of Frankfurt-listed Business Media China.

But that is where he found himself in early June as he and another German manager broke into the finance department while a group of his employees barricaded themselves inside and hid under their desks.

The impromptu raid turned up a raft of evidence showing that a group of BMC's senior Chinese managers had - unbeknown to BMC's German managers - set up their own company within the advertising and exhibition business and, Mr Zuercher and the rest of the company's management claim, siphoned off its most lucrative advertising contracts
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Kakkaji »

Washington stops lecturing its biggest lender, China
Washington learns to treat China with care

The economic crisis has shifted the balance of power, so the U.S. has stopped lecturing its biggest lender.


WASHINGTON (Fortune) -- America met with its lead banker this week and was forced to answer plenty of tough questions about its spending habits. "Attention should be given to the fiscal deficit," China's finance minister, Xie Xuren, warned the U.S.

And while U.S. officials gamely lobbed back the by-now-familiar refrain that China needs to boost its domestic consumption, rather than relying on exports to the U.S. for growth, it was clear which side was playing defense at this latest round of the three-year-old Strategic and Economic Dialogue.

"We've learned some tough lessons as a country," Treasury secretary Tim Geithner said at the conclusion of the talks. "I think the basic lesson, the importance of living within our means, is best for the country."

The economic balance of power "has shifted a great deal because of the United States' relative weakness and China's relative strength," said Minxin Pei, director of Claremont McKenna's Keck Center for International and Strategic Studies. "We shouldn't be badgering our banker at the moment."

Ah, what a difference a homegrown financial crisis makes.

When then-Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson landed in Beijing in December 2006, with a full array of U.S. cabinet officials in tow, America's focus was on giving the Chinese driving lessons about how to maneuver as a "responsible stakeholder" in the global economy. At the time, victorious Democrats had just taken control of Congress and were threatening retaliation against China, which stood accused of stealing American jobs and manipulating its currency to keep its goods artificially cheap.

The Chinese officials bristled at the lectures, with then-Vice Premier Wu Yi accusing "some American friends" of "harboring much misunderstanding about the reality in China." She added, pointedly, "This is not conducive to the sound development of our bilateral relations."

Now, with a Democratic White House in charge and President Obama making clear he wants to work with China on issues like climate change and nuclear nonproliferation, the China-bashing from Democrats on the Hill has softened. Sure, union leaders and their allies sent out calls for tough talk toward China as this week's talks got underway. "If our nation's leaders stand down as China stacks the deck against American business," said Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown, "the downward trade spiral will continue."

Brown and others also recently raised concerns about the prospect of a government-run General Motors building cars in China. But mostly, China no longer serves as the poster child for American job losses on Capitol Hill.

Today China, holding $801.5 billion in Treasury bonds, is the largest foreign financier of the record government deficits that this Democratic administration says are necessary in the short run to pull the American economy out of a deep recession. The Chinese, it's clear, are concerned about their investment.

From the outset of this week's high-level talks, Chinese officials wanted details on how the Obama administration planned to control inflation -- and bring down the deficit.

"What was most important to the Chinese was to hear about the trajectory," David Loevinger, Treasury senior coordinator for China affairs, told reporters. That job fell to budget director Peter Orszag.

In contrast to the cultural differences that Chinese officials in particular stressed in 2006, this time around the global economic crisis had highlighted the concerns that both countries shared, U.S. officials said.

"The U.S. and China have acted more like each other than many of the other economies," Loevinger said, adding that both countries are now "grappling with the timing of withdrawal of the macro-economic stimulus."

So far, President Obama's economic relations with China have gotten off to a better start than any President's since George H.W. Bush. President Clinton attempted to use trade sanctions to force China to improve human rights -- and then had to reverse himself. President George W. Bush faced early strains because of his plan for U.S. arms sales to Taiwan, followed by the standoff over a downed U.S. spy plane in Chinese territory.

But the role of China in financing ballooning federal deficits no doubt will bring on its own set of political complications between the two countries in the coming years. As President Obama scrambles to find ways to contain government spending, he will have be looking over his shoulder not only at those independent American voters who worry about deficits, but also at his Chinese bankers.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Sanjay M »

China Easily Surpasses India in Economic Indicators

Yes, we like to talk about "Chindia" and "the Asian Giants" - but the reality is of course quite different than our Kaangress-paid scribes like to pretend it is.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

Thus, between 2000 and 2007, China’s merchandise exports almost quintupled in value to account for nearly 9 per cent of world exports, while India’s export share increased sedately from 0.7 to 1 per cent. The increase in the value of China’s exports over the seven years was nearly seven times India’s total exports in 2007.
This chinese export in this decade is subsidized with purchase of US treasuries($1T) to keep the Chinese currency exchange value low. This is not even mention by the author


This $1T in currency reserve will lose its value by 30-40% in value due to dollar devaluation.
This loss at the national level is not even counted in the overall growth from 2000-2007
Last edited by svinayak on 30 Jul 2009 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
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