Indian Interests

raji · Post by **raji** » 27 May 2009 18:05

Shiv,

There is a lot of merit in what you say.

Only variation in my thinking from what you say in the previous post is as follows.

A patriot by definition cannot be corrupt. A corrupt cannot be a patriot. Look, no human is perfectly good or perfectly bad. Just because someone is not ALL BAD, doesnt make him a patriot.

By definiton, a net taker from the society (unless there are anomolous circumstances such as disability etc), is corrupt. A net contributor to the society is a patriot. And dont mean this in a communist sense. I actually mean it in a free market sense. I person who contributes less to society than he pulls out, is corrupt and not a patriot. Sometimes markets are not perfect and reward a person disproportionately to his efforts, without the fault of the person receiving the reward, but then it is the moral obligation of the person who receives to give back........kinda like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet did by donating away most of their fortunes after their deaths......

And please, dont get on my case about how can each person know or keep the exact accounting of how much he contributed or too out........even the most ignorant and the uneducated instinctively knows.......what is justly due to him....and what is not........

As you can see.....when you look at corruption in the above light..........it is the root of all evils mentioned by Ku above and is not merely a governance issue. The more contributors we have in the society, the better Indian interests will be served. There is nothing else that promotes Indian interests, other than individuals contributing.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 27 May 2009 19:51

brihaspati wrote: In any case, why do we refuse to see the glorification of corruption by the "non-participants"? Why don't we expose all those relatives, peers, and society around that rewards with social esteem - a corrupt person, if that person can display wealth and conspicuos consumption? Forget politicians and all other so-called corruptors. It is Indian elite society that should first look at itself. Why do parents prefer a "rich" groom when fixing a match for their daughter, even if he is known to be corrupt, over an honest but less fiscally capable groom? This is because Indian elite allowed the imposition of the ideological vacuum, where no values are sacrosanct.

Brihaspati, I would like to add another dimension to this. In interactions with Govt. institutions (corporation, courts etc.), I found that people who are basically honest in day to day life become very curiously "emasculated" when faced with a situation of corruption. A kind of fear and helplessness overcomes all sense of self-esteem in such situations - the objective of getting the job done rules supreme and supersedes any logic or moral constraint of not giving say Rs 500 to the Govt. clerk. The very same people would lead "normal" lives once they come out of that ambit of Govt. institution.

I personally think that since very few efforts have been made to make systems transparent (RTI act??) and majority of babus still see themselves as rightful descendants of the blood sucking invaders, the common guy would be hapless in such a situation. Only a minuscule would be able to protest and possibly get the work done while the vast majority will pay and get their jobs done. IMHO, will making a small fee by the Govt. on the "service" done legitimize things? One can argue that this would basically encourage corruption, but in the existence of the fee structure, the under the table dealings will be lessened if those fees contribute to some sort of reward system to the clerks. There is a whole mafia of middle men and clerks in courts. This nexus is a direct result of erstwhile corrupt invaders and also an economy that basically left a huge population of young men unemployed. Can we come up with some system where this nexus can be gradually destroyed?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 May 2009 21:04

brihaspati wrote:
In any case, why do we refuse to see the glorification of corruption by the "non-participants"? Why don't we expose all those relatives, peers, and society around that rewards with social esteem - a corrupt person, if that person can display wealth and conspicuos consumption? Forget politicians and all other so-called corruptors. It is Indian elite society that should first look at itself. Why do parents prefer a "rich" groom when fixing a match for their daughter, even if he is known to be corrupt, over an honest but less fiscally capable groom? This is because Indian elite allowed the imposition of the ideological vacuum, where no values are sacrosanct.

Brihaspati while we read about politicians in the news, those same politicians are part of a larger society and they attend the wedding of "rich boy - fair girl" - in a glittering party of "of the corupt, for the corrupt, by the corrupt"

However - my thrust against corruption is not just the politician. That is only the tip of the iceberg - but he is supported by a veritable forest of corruption below him. Even if the politician is honest it means nothing and makes no dent on a system that is endemic in India.

There are two distinct types here.

One is what you yourself described - the already rich already wealth controller class whose work gets done by patronage. The second is the new rich - the city corporation engineer and the police official and the middle grade government functionary. The former feeds the latter and the latter owes his survival to the former.

At the bottom rung is the beat policeman who salutes me even as he takes a whack with his lathi at the pavement vendor from who he was just taking a bribe two minutes before he saw me.

I am vehement and vocal on this issue particularly because I believe there has been some success here in Bangalore in clearing a small but encouraging part of the corruption. It can be done. It must be done. India will become an efficient world beating machine if we can cut this down by even 50%. The word "nationalism" means nothing if we cannot fight what holds India down. It is only ignorance that makes people imagine that it plays a minor or peripheral role in Indian economy and the general outlook of the Indian. Because it touches the life of every Indian in India it is a vital issue. It touches the wealthy, who pay the bribes and get the favors - the least. It supports the army of corrupt officials and is their life blood and they will do everything to protect and perpetuate it.

At the bottom are the poor who can't afford bribes, but pay them nevertheless and get little in return For these people the "Ideal" is to be corrupt and make a lot of money like all the rich people around. When politicians say that people in India are untouched by terrorism - this is in part the reason. The issues of the Indian on the ground are a far cry from those discussed on here. And while global geopolitics affects India, India's international clout and performance are hampered by its internal dysfunction which allows a significant set of Indians to remain wealthy happy and untouched no matter what happens to the nation while they do not give a damn about millions who are outside the system. Exactly like the Pakistani RAPE that we like to speak about. Only we do not want to see how the system works in India. These Indians appear patriotic - but they are hardly nationalists. they are selfish to the core and can only be called "desh-drohis". This is why I advise caution in blanket misuse of the word "nationalism". A lot of the elite of India are deshdrohis in the guise of nationalists because they perpetuate corruption. And yes - I am part of it too - I get caught in ways that I will not describe here. I will only hurt feelings when I speak up.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 May 2009 21:44

raji wrote: Only variation in my thinking from what you say in the previous post is as follows.

A patriot by definition cannot be corrupt. A corrupt cannot be a patriot.

raji we do not differ except in terminology/semantics. Let me explain.

A corrupt person cannot be a patriot - period. That is an absolute value

What actually happens in India is that a huge mass of corrupt people have assumed every single role that an Indian can assume - including the role of the "patriot". If an official makes Rs 6 crores in bribes he will judiciously pay income tax on his "meager" regular income and forego a whole week's salary for the "National Defence fund".

The land shark will have amassed properties worth Rs 50 crores. He will prominently pay "Rs 10,000" for the Prime Minster's earthquake relief fund and apply for income tax savings under Section 80 G (or something similar) and prove that he is an honest taxpayer.

The wealthy doctor bribes the minister to permit him to start a nursing college and makes a healthy profit from "donations". Every one of 50 students pays Rs 50,000 (admission fee) in addition to tuition fees - giving an assured profit of 2.5 crores over and above fees. And then the doctor conducts a "free consultation camp" and sends cakes to the soldiers in Siachen fro Christmas. He curses the government for not giving warm clothes for soldiers or for not giving a petrol pump to a war widow.

These are all people who are accepted in India as good citizens - their corruption is ignored or somehow placed in a separate category - as if it is someone else who is doing that. Everyone knows that everyone has a corrupt side and a patriotic (or honest) side and everyone pretends that this is OK. That is the most serious disease in india. It is a disease that is hidden by a mask of health.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2009 21:51

Corruption is a serious issue. To understand the roots of corruption, one has to understand the fundamental sources of it, as ramana has done. He has rightly traced it to the system of foreign rule, a system that we continued in large parts. The roots of this system were built upon a divorce between the governed and the ones governing. It was built upon mistrust of the people and systems of the land. This fundamental level of mistrust has continued in governance, perpetuating the story of corruption far and wide.

Our system of governance seeks to retain ultimate power to decide laws in the hands of an ultra narrow elite, in lines with the unitary model followed by the British. Article 200 ensures that states cannot pass laws without central consent. Local bodies cannot govern without the state. Economic activity is/was severely controlled by the state.

I say this with full responsibility, it is a crime to be "faithful" to all the laws of a government with such an unjust system, unjust laws and systemic corruption.

What is not productive is the discussion that somehow it is the people and culture of the land that is responsible as this line does not have merit, IMO and second, even if it does, there is squat you can do about it.

A system, however can be changed and the results of these changes can be experienced, relatively quickly.

Indian Interests will be served, if we truly understand the roots of this corruption and how it acts as a termite to make the nation hollow and why even an iron fence cannot protect a tree hollowed by termites.

True federalism and devolution of powers is the systemic answer to the issue.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 27 May 2009 21:52

^^^^^

Shiv, I have to agree with you. There are many who also say that if so and so mantri completes the Metro Railway of Kolkata for e.g.,, it is ok for him/her to indulge in "some" amount of corruption, whatever "some" means.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2009 21:56

shiv wrote: The wealthy doctor bribes the minister to permit him to start a nursing college and makes a healthy profit from "donations". Every one of 50 students pays Rs 50,000 (admission fee) in addition to tuition fees - giving an assured profit of 2.5 crores over and above fees. And then the doctor conducts a "free consultation camp" and sends cakes to the soldiers in Siachen fro Christmas. He curses the government for not giving warm clothes for soldiers or for not giving a petrol pump to a war widow.

Why does the wealthy doctor have to seek a "permit" to open a nursing college for profit?

raji · Post by **raji** » 27 May 2009 22:06

shiv wrote:
raji wrote: Only variation in my thinking from what you say in the previous post is as follows.

A patriot by definition cannot be corrupt. A corrupt cannot be a patriot.
raji we do not differ except in terminology/semantics. Let me explain.

A corrupt person cannot be a patriot - period. That is an absolute value

What actually happens in India is that a huge mass of corrupt people have assumed every single role that an Indian can assume - including the role of the "patriot". If an official makes Rs 6 crores in bribes he will judiciously pay income tax on his "meager" regular income and forego a whole week's salary for the "National Defence fund".

The land shark will have amassed properties worth Rs 50 crores. He will prominently pay "Rs 10,000" for the Prime Minster's earthquake relief fund and apply for income tax savings under Section 80 G (or something similar) and prove that he is an honest taxpayer.

The wealthy doctor bribes the minister to permit him to start a nursing college and makes a healthy profit from "donations". Every one of 50 students pays Rs 50,000 (admission fee) in addition to tuition fees - giving an assured profit of 2.5 crores over and above fees. And then the doctor conducts a "free consultation camp" and sends cakes to the soldiers in Siachen fro Christmas. He curses the government for not giving warm clothes for soldiers or for not giving a petrol pump to a war widow.

These are all people who are accepted in India as good citizens - their corruption is ignored or somehow placed in a separate category - as if it is someone else who is doing that. Everyone knows that everyone has a corrupt side and a patriotic (or honest) side and everyone pretends that this is OK. That is the most serious disease in india. It is a disease that is hidden by a mask of health.

I understand and agree.

You are bringing forth a who slew of scenarios and situations which a normal Indian no longer feels is corruption, but it is, as you point out. An Indian is like someone who has watched a lot of ***** and is now de-sensitized to normal sex, except that he is de-sensitized to corruption.

I have been accused by many, including, but not exclusively, by many in this forum for speaking veciforously about corruption and that discussing corruption doesnt lead to anywhere and my discussing it will not solve the problem and it is not much of a problem any way. As if discussing US actions and Pak actions can cause us to change their actions. So they say, that I am only whining.

Well, if through my posts, lets say I have not been able to even fractionally change any minds, but whether through contents of my posts or the fact that I persisted despite being attacked, and persevered through many attempts to gag and censor, if I am even able to sensitize an intellect like you .5% more to make you truly vicerally hate this disease, I am very encouraged. Feel free to burst my bubble and self congratulatory attitude (narcissistic ??) by telling me that I had nothing to do whatsoever with how you feel...........

really, the important thing is that I have a great deal of respect for you for understanding and articulating how toxic this problem is........

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 May 2009 22:13

ShauryaT wrote:
What is not productive is the discussion that somehow it is the people and culture of the land that is responsible as this line does not have merit, IMO and second, even if it does, there is squat you can do about it..

This is the only point where I disagree with you. Every single instance of corruption that I know of in India has very clear cultural rules that say that it is wrong. People know that. But yet people take the attitude "there is squat you can do about it". That is patently untrue. it can be fought - but it requires people to be honest to themselves. There is nothing special in Indian culture that makes Indian extra corrupt - but there may be something special in Indian culture that makes people think that it cannot be changed and must be accepted.

Time and time and time again we see the same corrupt Indians being model citizens of a foreign country. It is because corruption is rampant and easy and yo can get away with it that corruption continues in India. There may be a fatalistic streak among Indians who feel that it is their fate to live like this and that it can never change. It can change and it must be changed.

Indians are all so relieved that India is going to have "a stable government" that we are willing to put up with rubbish to make our hopes come true. Karunanidhi knows this and uses this to blackmail the central government into making his sons and daughter central ministers. Can the Congress refuse?

If they refuse - Karunanidhi will revolt and hold the government to ransom. Is the Congress willing to hold out against him? Of course not! The Congress itself is pushing Sonia's son. Sonia herself is Rajiv's wife. And Rajiv? Indira's son.

So we have open nepotism right at the top. I don't believe that "there is squat anyone can do about it". We have to do something. But nothing can be done unless there is recognition that something needs doing. And nothing gets done by saying that corruption cannot be removed because it is "cultural". We have a culture that promotes "family values" so it is OK for everyone to put his wife/son etc into positions of power by sheer nepotism. The culture must change.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 May 2009 22:15

ShauryaT wrote:.Why does the wealthy doctor have to seek a "permit" to open a nursing college for profit?

Licence Raj - so the government can make money before the doctor rakes in more profits. Once the bribe is paid the doctor gets a wink and a nod from government until he has to bribe the university for yet another licence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 May 2009 22:21

OK Shiv, Hindus and Indians are the most messed up people steeped in corruption based on your perception. You can open a thread on that and state your views in that. And since its a general topic you can open it in the GD Forum.

Thanks, ramana

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 May 2009 22:25

ramana wrote:OK Shiv, Hindus and Indians are the most messed up people steeped in corruption based on your perception. You can open a thread on that and state your views in that. And since its a general topic you can open it in the GD Forum.

Thanks, ramana

I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about Hindus. I never said that word.

But the corruption is very much there.

i will open the thread that i choose to open in the forum of my choice at a time of my choosing. Thanks.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2009 22:34

shiv wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:.Why does the wealthy doctor have to seek a "permit" to open a nursing college for profit?
Licence Raj - so the government can make money before the doctor rakes in more profits. Once the bribe is paid the doctor gets a wink and a nod from government until he has to bribe the university for yet another licence.

So, now, weigh in on the merits of license raj and its origins. The Doctor is being forced to Bribe, due to the system, he lives in and not due to some inherent trait in the Hindu psyche.

One of the secrets of the success of democracy and rule of law in India is due to the "psyche" of the people to withstand a diverse set of systems. The Indian psyche is highly responsive to the concept of rule of law and authority. If you present a system, which is inherently unjust to a large majority, the net result will be systemic failure. Change the system and Indics will respond - as evidenced by a large majority of Indians in India, who do not have to deal with the government for a large majority of transactions for daily life. India functions at a certain level, not due to the rule of law, which is hollow but inspite of it. A large number of Indian markets, would not be able to function, were it not for this inherent trust and confidence that people have in each other. It is marred only by the systems we live under.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 May 2009 22:59

shiv wrote: A corrupt person cannot be a patriot - period. That is an absolute value

What actually happens in India is that a huge mass of corrupt people have assumed every single role that an Indian can assume - including the role of the "patriot".

...

These are all people who are accepted in India as good citizens - their corruption is ignored or somehow placed in a separate category - as if it is someone else who is doing that. Everyone knows that everyone has a corrupt side and a patriotic (or honest) side and everyone pretends that this is OK. That is the most serious disease in india. It is a disease that is hidden by a mask of health.

Shiv-ji,

Agree with you 100%. I think the solution to this problem lies within your problem description itself.

The individual has to be convinced to live a honest and non-corrupt lives. The individual must live his life in a non-corrupt manner, as an end-user as well as the service provider. How do we instill this sense of honesty and patriotism in our citizens? The individual will pursue wealth as long as his self-interests lie in accumulation of wealth. Be it better creature comforts for himself or his offspring and his future generations. This is the value system we have currently in any society.

No amount of laws and force will work as such a solution will make the individual to find creative applications of corruption. The value system in the society must change in a way that the individual doesn’t see any material-motivation beyond certain point. This is what different state-systems tried to achieve throughout the history. We can see the same in our Purushardha system and in Pluto’s republic. The interesting point in all of them is who and how these systems are defined, implemented, and protected. That is a philosophical discussion for another day.

In today’s India, most of the corruption is left uncaught mainly due to our compensation and tax policies. I think Rahul Mehta has a better grasp and ideas to address this issue. I will present three key points from his website, as I understood.

1. Mining lease: Disburse majority of mining leases to all citizens below certain income levels. This will ensure that mercantile group doesn’t exploit common resources single handedly.
2. Hereditary wealth tax: This ensures that beyond a reasonable amount (1cr per offspring) is not accumulated by parents in order to pass on the wealth. The valuation must be worked out. I think a Rs 10 Crores per child is a fair limit with some exceptions such as if the dwelling (one per child) is worth more than 10 Crs, the child is allowed to get the house.
3. National ID System: Which links an individuals wealth, income, revenue records, lands possessions, bank accounts, and everything. This will ensure that individuals are not given any chance to falsify their possessions. If an asset is not reported by any individual it will belong to the state.

Right to Recall: this will put the implementation portion in people’s hands. I have seen arguments on implementation. But if we want to be serious about removing corruption from society, we need this type of law. Its usage will diminish as people see more responsible behavior from the key bureaucratic positions.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2009 23:06

shiv wrote:We have a culture that promotes "family values" so it is OK for everyone to put his wife/son etc into positions of power by sheer nepotism. The culture must change.

There is not a place in the world, where family and by extension the "tribe" has or had not enjoyed privileges - and rightly so. We work to provide wealth to our families. These connections are the bed rock of loyalty and trust between people. It can be a source of strength as well as weakness. It is easy to be ultra liberal and pooh-pooh these concepts, in the name of feudalism and promoting nepotism, in the name of "welfare" and "individuality".

The trick is in the ability to balance these concepts, which have worked for many a millenia and still work, with modern ones, where rule of law prevails over and above these age old proven structures, especially for areas where the effects are wide spread, as in the public domain or in the private domain, where individuals seek to tap this "out of tribe" talent to grow bigger than what the "tribe" would normally allow.

So, IG/RG/SG/RG as "inheritors" of a political legacy would work just fine, were it a monarchy but not in a republican democracy. A Dhirubhai Ambani, seeking to pass on his wealth to his children is just fine. Both are aspects of "family values". One is OK, the other is not.

Somehow, pointing to "family values" as the source of trouble, without adding nuance to the debate, is non productive.

If you take the debate to the systemic issues, you will see that the readiness of the people to adopt the goals of the system were not in sync with the practices of the land and it seeked to transplant the goals of a different society on to ours. The process, we have adopted is one of radical brain surgery, in pursuit of an external goal, that some of our leaders, seeked for themselves.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 May 2009 23:21

Michael Bergunder 's essay on AIT

Contested Past

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 May 2009 23:28

shiv wrote:We have a culture that promotes "family values" so it is OK for everyone to put his wife/son etc into positions of power by sheer nepotism. The culture must change.

Shiv-ji: You are upset with our "family values" now?

Could you please refer a social structure (contemporary or in history) that doesn't benefit the family system one way or other?

I can think of one such system. But will wait for your response.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 May 2009 23:37

ShauryaT wrote:
One of the secrets of the success of democracy and rule of law in India is due to the "psyche" of the people to withstand a diverse set of systems. The Indian psyche is highly responsive to the concept of rule of law and authority. If you present a system, which is inherently unjust to a large majority, the net result will be systemic failure. Change the system and Indics will respond - as evidenced by a large majority of Indians in India, who do not have to deal with the government for a large majority of transactions for daily life. India functions at a certain level, not due to the rule of law, which is hollow but inspite of it. A large number of Indian markets, would not be able to function, were it not for this inherent trust and confidence that people have in each other. It is marred only by the systems we live under.

The thing missing in your post is the size of the economy. The size of Indian economy is stunted for the population. For an 1.2B population it should be atleast $3T economy. Due to leadership problem in the 70s and all decades and due to license Raj India has a stunted economy. World economy and trade from 1975 to 2000 increased by 7 times that is 700%. The growth of Indian trade and GDP was insignificant.

There is not enough money for the population and any money seen in the economy is grabbed by the educated elite. Vast population in the rural economy and other industry is deprived of investment and growth.

Corruption thrives in this economic situation
Lot of those who complain about corruption do not even mention the economic problem and bad leadership in the last 50 years.

raji · Post by **raji** » 28 May 2009 00:07

RamaY wrote:
shiv wrote:We have a culture that promotes "family values" so it is OK for everyone to put his wife/son etc into positions of power by sheer nepotism. The culture must change.
Shiv-ji: You are upset with our "family values" now?

Could you please refer a social structure (contemporary or in history) that doesn't benefit the family system one way or other?

I can think of one such system. But will wait for your response.

Everyone looks out for ones family.

But.....

Can you justify killing someone else's child in the name of "looking after" your own child ? You wouldnt call that family value, would you ? Even in India of today, that would not be condoned, would it ?

Why would it be "family values" then to unjustly take away some other deserving person's job in the name of looking out for your child ? This is the concept of family values turned on its head.

Family values everywhere, but particularly in our Hindu culture and scriptures, is a concept deeply attached to the concept of sacrifice (remember sacrifice ? The word that is no longer in use in any language in India, because it is no longer relevent, as no one sacrifices anymore). What family values really means is that one has to sacrifice oneself and one's own possessions for one's family. Nowhere in Hinduism does it say, loot others, steal from others, take from others to feed your own family or extended family and its OK. Take Mahabharata for example. Its clear lesson is that when Dhritrashtra wanted to benefit his own immediate family by taking the rights of others, he was branded a villian.

How did Indians make that leap from this sacrifice based family value to loot based family value ? and all of us here on this forum know this. Why are we obfuscating the issue then ?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 28 May 2009 00:20

raji wrote: Everyone looks out for ones family.

But.....

Can you justify killing someone else's child in the name of "looking after" your own child ? You wouldnt call that family value, would you ? Even in India of today, that would not be condoned, would it ?

If the america's attack on afghan, not looking after US children, what is it? Are we not condoning it when wrapped in sweet words? At the end of day it is better a afghan child dead than an US one.

Why would it be "family values" then to unjustly take away some other deserving person's job in the name of looking out for your child ? This is the concept of family values turned on its head.

Are you talking of a govt job or a normal one. Any where in the world, the easiest way to get a job is through your "networks", a soft word for your clan/tribe/acquiantance/family member. What makes this one right and the other one wrong.

Show me a place where it is not so and based solely on merit, I have bridge in brooklyn to sell.
I know, you will come with things like if the other person is an idiot, doesnt mean we have to be one and so on.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 May 2009 00:21

raji wrote:
Everyone looks out for ones family.

But.....

Can you justify killing someone else's child in the name of "looking after" your own child ? You wouldnt call that family value, would you ? Even in India of today, that would not be condoned, would it ?

...

How did Indians make that leap from this sacrifice based family value to loot based family value ? and all of us here on this forum know this. Why are we obfuscating the issue then ?

raji-ji

The real confusion lies in the thought processes such as the one quoted above. The problem is with people who does inaccurate root-cause analysis.

They connect RIGHT symptoms with WRONG causes, like the imaginary-connection established between India's strategic future and corruption and India's hindu roots.

The biggest joke is some of these posters did not even agree on India's Hindu (Indic) roots just a month ago. But somehow all of India's problems are attributed to this Hindu-psyche of Indic civilization. A forum-full of BS that is.

raji · Post by **raji** » 28 May 2009 00:57

RamaY wrote:
raji wrote:
Everyone looks out for ones family.

But.....

Can you justify killing someone else's child in the name of "looking after" your own child ? You wouldnt call that family value, would you ? Even in India of today, that would not be condoned, would it ?

...

How did Indians make that leap from this sacrifice based family value to loot based family value ? and all of us here on this forum know this. Why are we obfuscating the issue then ?
raji-ji

The real confusion lies in the thought processes such as the one quoted above. The problem is with people who does inaccurate root-cause analysis.

They connect RIGHT symptoms with WRONG causes, like the imaginary-connection established between India's strategic future and corruption and India's hindu roots.

The biggest joke is some of these posters did not even agree on India's Hindu (Indic) roots just a month ago. But somehow all of India's problems are attributed to this Hindu-psyche of Indic civilization. A forum-full of BS that is.

I would be open to a logical disproving or invalidation of my argument by you. Why do you think it is an imaginary connection ?

Much better to logically deconstruct my arguments than labeling them and calling names. You call my assertion BS, I call yours piece of crap...........where does that lead us....I have gone through great lengths explaining my arguments, most or my posts are admittedly annoyingly long for that reason alone. You do yourself and everyone a great injustice by just labeling them in one word.

Of course, you are free to do what you like, I leave it upto your good sense.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 May 2009 01:21

RamaY wrote: The value system in the society must change in a way that the individual doesn’t see any material-motivation beyond certain point. This is what different state-systems tried to achieve throughout the history. We can see the same in our Purushardha system and in Pluto’s republic. The interesting point in all of them is who and how these systems are defined, implemented, and protected. That is a philosophical discussion for another day.

Varna-Ashrama-Purusharthas and the Vaidika sampradaya proposes to structure society as well as individual life with the intention of keeping the ultimate purpose of life pre-eminent among the other pursuits necessary for material existence. These concepts were non existent in western systems and hence do not form a part of the structures of the modern Indian state in any shape or form.

Transplanting another system is not the answer, the answer lies in the exploration of Indic systems and suitably modify them for current times, as Sri Aurobindo had done. SD is a living dharma and the Varna-Ashrama-Purusharthas system can be modified and changed as required.

1. Mining lease: Disburse majority of mining leases to all citizens below certain income levels. This will ensure that mercantile group doesn’t exploit common resources single handedly.

Proof that this will work better than the state auctioning these to private entities, who can be more productive is?

2. Hereditary wealth tax: This ensures that beyond a reasonable amount (1cr per offspring) is not accumulated by parents in order to pass on the wealth. The valuation must be worked out. I think a Rs 10 Crores per child is a fair limit with some exceptions such as if the dwelling (one per child) is worth more than 10 Crs, the child is allowed to get the house.

A sure shot guarantee that wealth will leave India by the hoards. Even a wealth tax is effectively double taxation and an affront to the concept of fair play. It is justified only by the greed of the state, to amass wealth for itself.

3. National ID System: Which links an individuals wealth, income, revenue records, lands possessions, bank accounts, and everything. This will ensure that individuals are not given any chance to falsify their possessions. If an asset is not reported by any individual it will belong to the state.

What is this fascination with "reporting" everything, as if it is a crime to own things. I will pay to the state, what the state decrees as tax, not a penny more. I will declare to the state, only what I minimally have to and nothing more. These concepts are the essence of freedom. Read some works of the Constitution and especially works that seek the strengthen the concepts of privacy, sorely lacking in the Indian constitution.

Right to Recall: this will put the implementation portion in people’s hands. I have seen arguments on implementation. But if we want to be serious about removing corruption from society, we need this type of law. Its usage will diminish as people see more responsible behavior from the key bureaucratic positions.

It is also a cop out, from being responsible and taken to its extreme as RM suggests will lead to anarchy.

RM takes maximal positions, knowing fully well that his concepts, even if they have merit in parts, will never be implemented in full but he takes these maximal positions to further his agenda. Please do not take the above personally.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2009 01:22

ShauryaT wrote:Corruption is a serious issue. To understand the roots of corruption, one has to understand the fundamental sources of it, as ramana has done. He has rightly traced it to the system of foreign rule, a system that we continued in large parts. The roots of this system were built upon a divorce between the governed and the ones governing. It was built upon mistrust of the people and systems of the land. This fundamental level of mistrust has continued in governance, perpetuating the story of corruption far and wide.

It occurred to me that this may also be main reason for the bad economic policies and decisions made by the elite in the last 50 years.

The elite is unable to see the real information about the economy and the rest of the world. The image and news of the rest of the world is fed by foriegn powers and the Indian ruling elite is only inward looking.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 May 2009 02:17

Here is something that it may be beneficial to consider, as grist for the mill of our analysis.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
http://www.businessballs.com/maslow.htm

This was initially postulated as a psychological model to explain human motivation. As you can see, there is a hierarchy of several progressively higher Tiers of needs, to which humans aspire in their natural drive towards self-actualization. This is accepted in the social sciences as more or less universally true of individuals. In management science it is applied to organizations. There is no reason I see, why we cannot apply it to civilizations... specifically our own.

1. Biological and Physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep, etc.

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, limits, stability, etc.

3. Belongingness and Love needs - work group, family, affection, relationships, etc.

4. Esteem needs - self-esteem, achievement, mastery, independence, status, dominance, prestige, managerial responsibility, etc.

5. Cognitive needs - knowledge, meaning, etc.

6. Aesthetic needs - appreciation and search for beauty, balance, form, etc.

7. Self-Actualization needs - realising personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences.

8. Transcendence needs - helping others to achieve self actualization.

Once upon a time we were a civilization that had fulfilled even the needs of Tier 8: Transcendence. We were a beacon of culture, learning and wisdom for all of Asia and much of Eastern Africa. We advanced ourselves to this glorious extent without having to do the slightest harm to anybody... a feature perhaps unique among all civilizations in human history.

Having been conquered and defeated by the revealed barbarisms, we were reduced to negotiate for our survival. We had to give up our aspirations to Tier 4 and above needs, so that we could be allowed the fulfillment of our Tier 1 and 2 needs. Tier 3 needs (Belongingness and Love needs - work group, family, affection, relationships, etc.) were not something we could take for granted. Tier 4 needs (Esteem, etc.) were denied to us flat out... by such mechanisms as Jiziya tax, destruction of our cultural icons, Macaulayism etc.

But Tier 3 was something we could still aspire to... "belongingness" and identification with a smaller, local unit was sometimes allowed as long as the unit with which we claimed "belonging" identification was not so large as to potentially threaten the conqueror. Loyalty at that level was aspired to as a natural need. It was allowed, even encouraged, by those in power who were "divorced from our land and people" as Shaurya eloquently says... as long as it remained limited to a small enough grouping. When it threatened to advance beyond the boundaries of acceptable-sized groupings, our aspiration to the Tier 3 need for "belongingness" was quickly and ruthlessly cut down.

Perhaps this is why the tendency to advance the smaller unit of extended family, clan or caste (through nepotism, patronage, etc.) is a behaviour that has become not only ingrained but one that we actually learned to defend. It is the "borderline need", between the basic Tier 1 and 2 needs we had managed to retain and the Tier 4+ needs that were systematically stripped from us for a thousand years.

Nationalism today must build organically on the higher order Tier 3 needs instead of trying to negate them, because super-imposed negation goes against the grain of what motivates our people... it is doomed to be met with inevitable resistance.

To quote Shaurya again:

ShauryaT wrote:Transplanting another system is not the answer, the answer lies in the exploration of Indic systems and suitably modify them for current times, as Sri Aurobindo had done. SD is a living dharma and the Varna-Ashrama-Purusharthas system can be modified and changed as required.

The problem with Rahul Mehta type "solutions" is that they completely ignore the hierarchy of needs and aspirations natural and innate to our people, and seek rather to control by regulation and suppression... which is exactly the problem with our leadership today.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2009 02:50

Rudradev wrote:
The problem with Rahul Mehta type "solutions" is that they completely ignore the hierarchy of needs and aspirations natural and innate to our people, and seek rather to control by regulation and suppression... which is exactly the problem with our leadership today.

Ethnic and cultural roots actually determines what priority of this hierarchy get adopted by that population

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 May 2009 03:00

Acharya wrote:
Rudradev wrote:
The problem with Rahul Mehta type "solutions" is that they completely ignore the hierarchy of needs and aspirations natural and innate to our people, and seek rather to control by regulation and suppression... which is exactly the problem with our leadership today.
Ethnic and cultural roots actually determines what priority of this hierarchy get adopted by that population

I don't agree. That is why I emphasize that this very same population, rooted in the same ethnicity and culture, had once achieved fulfillment of the topmost Tier... Level 8 Needs, or Transcendence. Giving the world Boddhi Dharm, Vedanta, Nalanda/Takshashila and Aryabhatta's mathematics.

It is not ethnicity or culture that has reduced us to aspirations of a Borderline Tier 3 level. It is our historical experience of the last 1000 years.

Added later: A main purpose of Psyops is to crush our aspirations to Tier 4 Needs (Esteem etc.) even decades after independence. Those who wish to control and manipulate India realize that depriving us of Tier 4 is the best way to thwart our ascension to Tier 5 and beyond.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2009 03:41

Rudradev wrote:
I don't agree. That is why I emphasize that this very same population, rooted in the same ethnicity and culture, had once achieved fulfillment of the topmost Tier... Level 8 Needs, or Transcendence. Giving the world Boddhi Dharm, Vedanta, Nalanda/Takshashila and Aryabhatta's mathematics.

It is not ethnicity or culture that has reduced us to aspirations of a Borderline Tier 3 level. It is our historical experience of the last 1000 years.

Added later: A main purpose of Psyops is to crush our aspirations to Tier 4 Needs (Esteem etc.) even decades after independence. Those who wish to control and manipulate India realize that depriving us of Tier 4 is the best way to thwart our ascension to Tier 5 and beyond.

Education is missing in your list. Tier 5 has been colonized for Indians and without it being replaced by home grown idea nothing is going to change.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 May 2009 04:12

Rudradev wrote:The problem with Rahul Mehta type "solutions" is that they completely ignore the hierarchy of needs and aspirations natural and innate to our people, and seek rather to control by regulation and suppression... which is exactly the problem with our leadership today.

While I broadly agree with the rest of your argument, I fail to see the connection to this sentance of yours.

RM has essentially been advocating citizen's initiatives, right of recall and other features of 'direct democracy'. While one might not agree with the precise implementation that he advocates, I would certainly not go so far as to say that the concepts behind them are without merit. In fact, there are large and growing movements in the US and Europe that champion direct democracy features for their own systems....and the key rationale offered is that corruption would be reduced and accountability enhanced.

So, would citizen's initiatives and right to recall be THE ultimate solutions to corruption and accountability ...maybe not - but certainly they would go a fair way and it would be foolish of us not to find a way to incorporate these aspects into our own democracy...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 May 2009 06:21

ShauryaT wrote: RM takes maximal positions, knowing fully well that his concepts, even if they have merit in parts, will never be implemented in full but he takes these maximal positions to further his agenda. Please do not take the above personally.

ShauryaT-ji,

your opposing points are valid.

I am not saying RM's thoughts are THE solution. I will leave it to RM-ji to answer your specific thoughts on his proposals.

What I was saying was that the system must ensure that the state protects the majority individual interests in a way that the individual doesn't see the value addition in resorting to corruption.

For that one needs proper education at character level. Unfortunately it is a taboo to discuss that point on BRF.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 May 2009 06:52

Acharya wrote:
Rudradev wrote:

It is not ethnicity or culture that has reduced us to aspirations of a Borderline Tier 3 level. It is our historical experience of the last 1000 years.

Added later: A main purpose of Psyops is to crush our aspirations to Tier 4 Needs (Esteem etc.) even decades after independence. Those who wish to control and manipulate India realize that depriving us of Tier 4 is the best way to thwart our ascension to Tier 5 and beyond.
Education is missing in your list. Tier 5 has been colonized for Indians and without it being replaced by home grown idea nothing is going to change.

Yes, certainly. That is why the battle lines have been drawn against us at the levels of Tier 3 and (at the most) Tier 4... because control over Tier 5 (cognitive needs, fulfilled by education) is all-important for the containment of our civilization.

You and I (and most of BRF) represent a small fraction of Indians who have leapfrogged up to Tier 5, been equipped with a modern education and retained the capacity to re-educate ourselves in spite of "modern education" being a colonized system.

But IMHO, one cannot directly raise the rest of the population to Tier 5... one must first fulfill their Tier 1, 2, 3 and 4 needs (and make them secure in that fulfillment) before the nation as a whole will actualize Tier 5 on its own "homegrown" terms. Without doing that, one can convert a few scattered individuals to our rarefied perspective by educating them, but no mass movement can be possible.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 May 2009 06:54

Arjun wrote:
Rudradev wrote:The problem with Rahul Mehta type "solutions" is that they completely ignore the hierarchy of needs and aspirations natural and innate to our people, and seek rather to control by regulation and suppression... which is exactly the problem with our leadership today.
While I broadly agree with the rest of your argument, I fail to see the connection to this sentance of yours.

RM has essentially been advocating citizen's initiatives, right of recall and other features of 'direct democracy'. While one might not agree with the precise implementation that he advocates, I would certainly not go so far as to say that the concepts behind them are without merit. In fact, there are large and growing movements in the US and Europe that champion direct democracy features for their own systems....and the key rationale offered is that corruption would be reduced and accountability enhanced.

So, would citizen's initiatives and right to recall be THE ultimate solutions to corruption and accountability ...maybe not - but certainly they would go a fair way and it would be foolish of us not to find a way to incorporate these aspects into our own democracy...

Arjun, there's no disconnection between the earlier part of my post and that sentence. Assuming you accept Maslow's pyramid as a reasonable model, think about it. The basis of an answer is already here in this statement of yours:

In fact, there are large and growing movements in the US and Europe that champion direct democracy features for their own systems....and the key rationale offered is that corruption would be reduced and accountability enhanced.

Ok, let's assume for argument's sake that you're right. But there are other things to consider:

1) On the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs, is the average Indian citizen aspiring to the same level of fulfillment (realistically) as the citizen of the US or most European countries? Does the Indian, typically, have his lower tier needs met to the same extent as a European or American has?

I would not say so. Roti, Kapda, Makan are Tier 2 or even Tier 1 needs. Forget about "belongingness" (to a larger unit than caste/tribe/family), "esteem" or god forbid "cognitive needs" which are fulfilled only through education.

2) If not, what does that say about the extent to which an Indian citizen is vulnerable to manipulation by elites in a political system, vis-a-vis the European or American?

3) Given that a large discrepancy in aspirational fulfillment (per the Maslow pyramid) exists between the westerner and his Indian counterpart; would the application of "direct democracy" mechanisms as a priority solution genuinely better the system to empower the Indian citizen? Or would it simply add more conduits for divisive caste-based politics, more currencies to the commerce of patronage and corruption that already prevails in our less-direct democracy of today?

4) Rahul Mehta talks about "right of recall" and "citizens' initiatives". Who are the citizens who will be taking these initiatives? Yes, any number of "commons" can be swayed to vote in any way (exactly because they are still struggling at Tier 1/2 levels and can be influenced by outright bribery or intimidation). But are those "commons" going to be sitting around coming up with "initiatives"?

I don't think so. I think the people who are going to come up with the "initiatives" are the ones who can afford the luxury of sitting around thinking about that kind of stuff (i.e., people whose lower-tier needs have already been fulfilled). The "initiatives" that actually get implemented are the going to be the ones sponsored by people with the means to command large numbers of "common" votes by bribery or intimidation.... the "elitemen" in Rahul Mehta terminology.

In other words, unless higher-order needs of the common Indian citizen are addressed and fulfilled, either prior to or concurrently with the institution of Rahul Mehta type solutions... those "solutions" will only represent further systems for the "elitemen" to exploit in their disproportionate concentration of power.

Not that his ideas are bad; they are simply irrelevant unless one first undertakes the mammoth task of bringing society to a level where they actually serve the (relatively higher-tier) aspirations of the people. And that means, first or at least concurrently addressing the lower-tier aspirations of the people.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 May 2009 07:04

Rudradev wrote:
Acharya wrote:
Rudradev...

It is not ethnicity or culture that has reduced us to aspirations of a Borderline Tier 3 level. It is our historical experience of the last 1000 years.

Added later: A main purpose of Psyops is to crush our aspirations to Tier 4 Needs (Esteem etc.) even decades after independence. Those who wish to control and manipulate India realize that depriving us of Tier 4 is the best way to thwart our ascension to Tier 5 and beyond.....

Education is missing in your list. Tier 5 has been colonized for Indians and without it being replaced by home grown idea nothing is going to change.
Yes, certainly. That is why the battle lines have been drawn against us at the levels of Tier 3 and (at the most) Tier 4... because control over Tier 5 (cognitive needs, fulfilled by education) is all-important for the containment of our civilization.

You and I (and most of BRF) represent a small fraction of Indians who have leapfrogged up to Tier 5, been equipped with a modern education and retained the capacity to re-educate ourselves in spite of "modern education" being a colonized system.

But IMHO, one cannot directly raise the rest of the population to Tier 5... one must first fulfill their Tier 1, 2, 3 and 4 needs (and make them secure in that fulfillment) before the nation as a whole will actualize Tier 5 on its own "homegrown" terms. Without doing that, one can convert a few scattered individuals to our rarefied perspective by educating them, but no mass movement can be possible.

I think the first thing is to raise the economy and its benefits to the people. Once they are well off then automatically they will reach Tier 5. Hence Acharya keeps saying economy has to be minimum $3T for the population of 1.2B. The current crisis gives a chance to grow it. Sometimes, when despondence sets in, I wonder if the mandate was to keep the population below Tier 3 as part of the grand bargain.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 May 2009 07:09

RD has elaborated the reasoning quite nicely. Now, extrapolate what RD has explained to the very concept of a democracy of one man / one vote in a first past the post system, in the diverse land, that is India where the masses are still at level 2 and see why it is so dangerous to take other systems and transplant them on our soil. We see the result that is India, where we all are still scratching our heads on - WTF happened in 2004 and 2009?

We should have the guts to question the very mores of the systems we practice and question their validity and fitness of purpose for our society and its goals.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2009 07:12

Rudradev wrote:
Education is missing in your list. Tier 5 has been colonized for Indians and without it being replaced by home grown idea nothing is going to change

Yes, certainly. That is why the battle lines have been drawn against us at the levels of Tier 3 and (at the most) Tier 4... because control over Tier 5 (cognitive needs, fulfilled by education) is all-important for the containment of our civilization.

You and I (and most of BRF) represent a small fraction of Indians who have leapfrogged up to Tier 5, been equipped with a modern education and retained the capacity to re-educate ourselves in spite of "modern education" being a colonized system.

But IMHO, one cannot directly raise the rest of the population to Tier 5... one must first fulfill their Tier 1, 2, 3 and 4 needs (and make them secure in that fulfillment) before the nation as a whole will actualize Tier 5 on its own "homegrown" terms. Without doing that, one can convert a few scattered individuals to our rarefied perspective by educating them, but no mass movement can be possible.

It may be a small fraction but there is good movement which is starting to change things. Indian text are available and history is still relavant and it will take some time. Rest of the population can be raised by changing the education and a new generation will be back with the historical cultural knowledge. It takes time and there are elements of it already.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 May 2009 07:14

In my opinion the Constitution framers undid many historical wrongs when they gave universal adult franchise regardless of the people being at different tiers. This has been a great safety valve that has stopped many of the million mutinies. Off-course there are quite few, that have capitalized on votebank politics but that will be a temporary setback for int he long run people will realizes the games being played on them.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 May 2009 07:45

ramana wrote:In my opinion the Constitution framers undid many historical wrongs when they gave universal adult franchise regardless of the people being at different tiers. This has been a great safety valve that has stopped many of the million mutinies. Off-course there are quite few, that have capitalized on votebank politics but that will be a temporary setback for int he long run people will realizes the games being played on them.

The purpose of a democratic system is to provide a representative. If there are questions on how representative is this representative system of ours, then one has to change some things.

Universal adult franchise, if deemed to be an essential need of Indian society can be provided in other ways too, so that the end result provides a representative system that works for the nation. One idea that has been mentioned by some experts is a combination of a direct voting system at the local levels and indirect at the state and federal levels combined with votes for a party as opposed to an individual of a party. There are other alternatives also but sticking to some haloed concepts, which may be fit for other societies, should not be an automatic reason for us to do so.

I am personally not convinced that it is universal adult franchise, that is the dying need of Indian society. The dying need is to provide levels 2 and 4 and whatever system can deliver upon it will be accepted by the Indian masses. Since Indian society has level 3 in spades and has experienced level 5 onwards in the past, once levels 2 and 4 are adequately provided for, we will find our just systems. The goal is to provide for 2 and 4. If democracy is the best means so be it but let us not get stuck on it, if there is a better way to get to our immediate goal, which is 2 and 4. Let us get focused on the goal and not the means.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 May 2009 07:55

The universal adult franchise and levels 2 and 4 are not mutually exclusive.

To that point India always had equal social rights to all its citizens, even during the varna system of Indic religions. A sudra's question (however illogical it may sound to us) influenced Rama (the king and god)to send Sitadevi to Aranyavasa.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 May 2009 09:14

Rudradev wrote: In other words, unless higher-order needs of the common Indian citizen are addressed and fulfilled, either prior to or concurrently with the institution of Rahul Mehta type solutions... those "solutions" will only represent further systems for the "elitemen" to exploit in their disproportionate concentration of power.

I see what you are driving at. My conclusion on this would be-

1) If the argument is that higher-order needs cannot be ignored, I agree. The fulfillment of higher-order needs, as well as RM-type and other possible solutions to enhance accountability and decrease corruption, can be and need to be addressed concurrently, like you suggest.

2) If the argument is that without addressing higher-order needs, right to recall and citizen's initiatives can actually lead to counter-productive and self-defeating results - that's a more serious charge, and there *MAY* be some basis to that argument. However, it is my sense that it would not be possible to prove one way or the other without actually implementing and testing out the hypothesis in a low-risk manner. I would suggest implementing this first at the level of all municipal corporations and district administrations across the country. If that experiment proves to be a success it can be taken across to the state and national levels.

MP and Chattisgarh already allow for this at the municipal level - and the Chattisgarh experiment last year has gotten a fair degree of praise : http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/2222124 ... ecall.html This needs to be quickly expanded to municipalities across the country and we can then take stock of what is working and what is not.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 May 2009 12:04

Excellent posts by Rudradev, ShauyraT and others. People forget, at independence the system which India got was the much hated system used by Brits for 100 years, with minor papering over.

Very difficult to build a nation state on the basis of a system everyone hates -- if India has survived as a country it is despite and not because of all the pains that the state visits on the people it is supposed to take care of, and we can thank out basic Bhartiyata for that.

-----

I think RMjee's discussion are harmful since they completely trivialize the main issues. It is like asking the nation to forget about the rising tide and completely devote all its intellectual ability to discuss which actress in Hollywood is the prettiest.

I dont usually respond to that chain of discussion after say first 2 posts RM made on the forum since I consider them so ludicrous that only a person with way too much lukkhaa time will give any attention to those. However some "powers" on the board have actually generated a interest in his views by they themselves giving bhaav to it. It is bizarre for a old time BRFite to see RM jee being taken seriously (although he has actually gained some knowledge based on hoofing it that is clear)

In a country where we cant agree if we can hold free and fair elections once in 5 years or if EVMs work -- he wants a right to recall.

In a country where the basic distribution methods are shot, he wants mineral rights to be equally distributed.

And note this is apart from the correctness of the idea itself -- for example wealth tax is known to be a hateful exercise which no one wants and only causes more damage to economy.

-------------

That is why I asked Shiv if bringing up RMjees ideas were a way to remove Hindutva on the board, just like the Cuckoo ideas of communism are propagated by outside interests in the country to actually muddle the real agenda and remove the focus and attention from real issues and debate therein to ones in la la land.

Off the bat I would actually suspect that RM jee may be one of the many "paid spoilers" running around in India.