Indian Missile Technology Discussion

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 26 May 2009 11:03

Arun_S wrote: I spent few minutes on ROCKSIM yesterday to deduce the range envelop keeping in mind the 10 minute flight.
The range can't be less then 2,000 Km if the flight time was 10 minutes. 2,000 Km surely is not a short flight.

Awesome! Thanks for that, Arun.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 26 May 2009 12:17

shiv wrote: What is the exact khujli we are suffering from - other than the sort of khujli that I suffered from watching my newlywed neighbor?

Its called cyber-rash. You get is it when someone online make a fuss about something which goes against our known ways.

Army has no obligation whatsoever to divulge details about this missile test, as it can be either classified or plain embarrassing. If everyone remembers correctly they still haven't release their analysis of one Brahmos test which they said they were evaluating and couldn't say if it succeeded or failed. Surprisingly we all got the same rash at that time too.

Maybe we all are reading too much into this, or trying to dig too deep into matters we can never get our hands on. A-II is a strategic weapon, and any further details on guidance update and parameters used/achieved can just spill beans over something we/enemy should not know.

In end, its all part of phyops

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 May 2009 09:57

Sid wrote:Army has no obligation whatsoever to divulge details about this missile test, as it can be either classified or plain embarrassing.

Wow so much Rona-Dhona while I was away. Two pages of it and now I get a chance to put my own R&Dh.

‘‘The missile deviated from its path after the first stage separation and was meandering at an angle of 180 degree midway. Though it was coordinated to cover a distance of nearly 2000 km, within just 127 seconds it covered 203 km before plunging into the sea,’’ said the source.

From the news, the missile was meandering at an angle of 180 degree. 180 degree to what? To the horizontal plane of earth? To its flight path [turned tail?], to the plane of the sky? To what plane was it meandering at an angle of 180 degree!!!

Anyway, as shiv saar points out, jisse lawhore mein khujli usse cyberspace mein bhi khujli ....

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 May 2009 11:44

disha wrote: ...
‘‘The missile deviated from its path after the first stage separation and was meandering at an angle of 180 degree midway. Though it was coordinated to cover a distance of nearly 2000 km, within just 127 seconds it covered 203 km before plunging into the sea,’’ said the source.
From the news, the missile was meandering at an angle of 180 degree. 180 degree to what? To the horizontal plane of earth? To its flight path [turned tail?], to the plane of the sky? To what plane was it meandering at an angle of 180 degree!!!

Anyway, as shiv saar points out, jisse lawhore mein khujli usse cyberspace mein bhi khujli ....

I guess the warped sense of humour is shared by many, and fair enough. I read an article a long time ago that communication between people of vastly different IQ is almost always unsustainable. Disha, I consider your and Arun's missile IQ and to be many ...many... times greater than mine - so perhaps that's why I'm unable to participate in the merriment.

Its just that at a time when we're sending 40,000 troops eastbound, when our IAF chief publicly declares China a greater threat than Pakistan, a time when we're reviving forgotten airbases in Tezpur and Ladakh, and a time when China is ramping up incursions along the Line of Actual Control, if our primary nuclear deterrent is indeed covering just 203 km and 127 seconds after stage separation - which supposedly happens at 49 seconds - before plunging into the sea, then I would have a flight time of 176 seconds, i.e. under 3 minutes.

I understand that there are many more claims in support of a 10 minute flight time - and hurray for that. But forgive me if I appear to be slightly concerned over the possibility of a (dismal) failure given the current climate. Call it khujli, prickly heat, whatever.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 28 May 2009 17:22

Last bit of news so far - from folks at India's leading aviation magazine:

In response to:

Hi Vik......

I take it you heard about the Agni-2 test on 19/5/09.

Did it succeed ? MoD spokesman said so. One website said it crashed after 127seconds. MoD spokesman asked about that site's report and said it was nonsense.

The Hindu, Indian Express and Times of India speak of it being a success flying for 10 minutes with telemetry data still being analysed.

What's the truth ?

He responded:

Hi,
I have not heard anything negative about it-- only positive-- and this is from all sorts of sources incl snoopy/ negative journalists!!!
Regards,
Vik......

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 May 2009 20:30

Sanjay, Is there a contact for Hemant Rout? Maybe we can engage him in a conversation.

Jay, I understand the low pressure but motor was running bit. Was it old motor? Its not stage separation thats the problem.Nor ignition but developing full burn. So was it aging propellent which was smoldering?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 29 May 2009 00:22

Comrade, that's the thing - nobody on the defence beat has ever seen Hemant Rout. He's never attended a single MoD briefing to the knowledge of any of the other defence correspondents. Nobody knows what he even looks like.

I've been trying to make some kind of contact since this affair started and none of my sources can even find a lead.

This is why there is such a mystery.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2009 03:16

Maybe he is in the state level reporter pool. So searching for him in Delhi will turn up zilch.

Call me ustad or bhaiyya but not comrade. Its for the red shirts.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 29 May 2009 03:40

Former red shirt myself.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 May 2009 03:40

ramana, Sanjay,

check your PM box please.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 29 May 2009 03:50

Done - steps have been taken to follow up. Will keep you posted.
May I suggest reading the testimonial section !

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2009 04:05

Thanks, ramana.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 29 May 2009 09:11

Could it be the other way round?
The army tested it to 3200 Km range, given the current scenario that is supposedly brewing with China.
This could be the reason for the obfuscation that we seem to see.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 29 May 2009 10:08

p_saggu wrote:Could it be the other way round?
The army tested it to 3200 Km range, given the current scenario that is supposedly brewing with China.
This could be the reason for the obfuscation that we seem to see.

Perhaps the missile had a hypersonic second stage! That would explain the short flight time, right?

swapna · Post by **swapna** » 30 May 2009 14:46

PratikDas wrote:
p_saggu wrote:Could it be the other way round?
The army tested it to 3200 Km range, given the current scenario that is supposedly brewing with China.
This could be the reason for the obfuscation that we seem to see.
Perhaps the missile had a hypersonic second stage! That would explain the short flight time, right?

The post shows your knowlede of ballistic missiles .ALL ballistic missiles fly at Hypersonic speeds .

H.B.Krishna · Post by **H.B.Krishna** » 30 May 2009 21:26

swapna wrote:
PratikDas wrote: Perhaps the missile had a hypersonic second stage! That would explain the short flight time, right?
The post shows your knowledge of ballistic missiles .ALL ballistic missiles fly at Hypersonic speeds .

Well in this world you cannot expect everybody at your level of knowledge. It is nice to elucidate, share knowledge with others. However...though subtly different verbally, sarcasm is not that nice

Let us enlighten ourselves with the tidbits from our great Gurus....
Dear Pratik, you made me smile, I should confess

Sorry for deviating from topic.....

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 30 May 2009 22:34

Tipu Sultan was father of latter day "Indian Rocketery"

But watch the revisionist history writers talking of Tipu Sultan the "Hindu butcher" glorified as protector of Hindus during his bloody reign.
Such is the psy-op played on unsuspecting Yindian mind.

Laughable to see the other psy-op of "Tipu Sultan is the only king who died on the same battlefield as his soldiers". I say "My foot" !!

OT, but this book will cure anyone of all illusions about Tipu Sultan. Read it online.

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tipu/

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 31 May 2009 02:20

H.B.Krishna wrote: ....
Dear Pratik, you made me smile, I should confess
Sorry for deviating from topic.....

Thanks, H.B. Krishna, for appreciating the joke. Sometimes a joke is only funny if it is concise. Besides, I would be as enthusiastic as anyone else on this forum when we do get an air-breathing hypersonic 2nd stage. Arun has estimated that after the first stage burns out the missile is travelling at Mach 5.6. From what I know, that's fast enough to ignite an air-breathing hypersonic stage. Until then, we can only dream and jest.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 31 May 2009 04:43

Here is excerpt of email communication that I would like to share; a value perspective that BR missiles pages and this discussion thread contributes to dispel fog of ignorance and bring clarity to general missile technology and Indian missile system in particular.

Emphasis are mine:

Dear Sir,
As a retired missile engineer, I have written a book entitled "The First Maneuvering Reentry Vehicles," which is scheduled for publication late in 2009 by Tate Publishing Limited. The manuscript describes the history of MRV technology from the German World War II concepts and experiments through several U.S. development programs.

From 1964 through 1982, I was the Aerospace Corporation manager for general systems engineering and technical direction of the MBRV, BGRV, MARCAS, and Pershing II reentry vehicles. To illustrate the continued technology development, I have included a chapter on Agni II and Agni III vehicle designs as well as Chinese and recent Russian Topol-M MRV concepts.

During my research on Agni II, I found an excellent photograph of a complete vehicle (Agni RV-Mark 2 on assembly line), in the Internet article, "Agni-Strategic Ballistic Missile," by Arun Vishwakarma (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Agni.html ). I would very much like to receive your permission to reprint the picture in my book to illustrate the continued technology development. The textual presentation is strictly scientific with no political or military commentary concerning the missile system. I am greatly impressed by the simple but highly technical approach Bharat Rakshak has taken in developing this design.

Please let me know by "written permission" if I may reprint the photograph. I will be pleased to abide by any conditions, including giving Bharat Rakshak and DRDO credit for the picture. I will consider a fee for use of the picture and will gladly send you copies of my book once it is published. You may find details of our early U.S. MRV development experiments and innovative approaches interesting.

Thank you for consideration, ABC XYZ

Hello Arun,
Yes, you found the right image. As I indicated in my message, I am most interested in obtaining permission to reproduce the image. I have worked on maneuvering reentry vehicles for most of my 55-year career and thought it was time that someone put the entire history on paper. However, I did not want to stop with programs that I had personally worked on and wanted to present the Agni II as an example of newer technology.

I will be pleased to send you a copy of the book when it is published and will consider a fee for use of the picture if required. It is a pleasure and honor to communicate with you...I have very much enjoyed reading your papers.

Sincerely, ABC XYZ

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 31 May 2009 08:50

Congratulations - ArunS Sir! Your hard work is being noticed.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 31 May 2009 09:21

It is a pleasure and honor to communicate with you

Arun Saar, it is a honour and indeed a pleasure to be able to post and share thoughts in the same forum as you, please keep up the good work...

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 31 May 2009 10:32

Congratulations, sir ji

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 May 2009 10:53

Arun_S, the gentleman in the e-mail is merely acknowledging what we all at B-R know for many years.

Keep up your good work!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 31 May 2009 18:30

Great stuff Arun. Congratulations. !!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 May 2009 22:34

Very Nice Arun , Congratulations

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 01 Jun 2009 00:34

Arun_S saar

- brilliant stuff. congrats and well deserved. The amount of effort you've put into this is just incredible.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 01 Jun 2009 03:46

Congratulations Arun Saar. A Picketean has done us proud onlee.

Didn't know stamps have been released on Brahmos. Pls delete if a repost.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 01 Jun 2009 09:21

Congratulations and Thank You, Arun_S. It is because there are knowledgeable contributors like you in BR that make it so different and attractive. This missile forum is especially rich in detail, thanks to you, and this richness is great relief especially when other darling projects like the LCA virtually disappear from the media radar.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 01 Jun 2009 10:07

Thank you Bhai-log.
Its a symbiotic relationship, where your participation/contribution/encouragement keeps me energized.

vsudhir wrote:A Picketean has done us proud onlee.

I have always felt proud as a Picketian, and I am indebted to people there who morphed me. Unfortunately some of the people I would like to acknowledge and thank have departed to the non-manifest divine abode of Sri Krishn.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 01 Jun 2009 10:16

sorry late, but they say its never too late.

Congrats Arun ji

Kuch log bitc% karthe hain
aap ki tareef dekhthe
woh tho reghaye mavrik ke karmic seva may
aap tho sadah kadak kadereho gyan baat nay may

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Jun 2009 10:34

Arun ji your works speaks for itself what more to say ; btw if at all that book reaches you share the gyaan with us too

You are da maan.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Jun 2009 07:27

John Snow wrote: Kuch log bitc% karthe hain
aap ki tareef dekhthe
woh tho reghaye mavrik ke karmic seva may
aap tho sadah kadak kadereho gyan baat nay may

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 02 Jun 2009 10:05

Arun ji's work is kinda like ISRO's work, I am tired of congratulating both

Nevertheless, hearty congratulations!

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 02 Jun 2009 16:28

Congratulations once more Arun.
As always, waiting in anticipation for further gyan flowing from your side.

It will be interesting to see how non-indian experts view India's IGMDP. DRDO has developed several innovative techs here, which are now being looked at by the leaders in missile tech.

Congratulations DRDO and Congratulations Arun for bringing their achievements to light.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Jun 2009 07:21

Congratulations Arun-Ji!

It is an honor to meet people like you on BR.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 05 Jun 2009 00:48

DRDO and EADS develop advanced missile warning system for aircraft

... . . . . EADS Defence & Security (DS) together with the Indian Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) has successfully developed a missile warning system which will enter series production in India soon. As reported by the company during the Berlin Airshow, the system has passed successfully extensive flight trials which paved the way to equipping several hundred Indian Armed Forces' rotary wing and wide body aircraft.

The system is based on the proven MILDS Missile Launch Detection System provided by Defence Electronics, an integrated Business Unit of EADS Defence & Security. During the flight trials onboard an Indian Air Force test platform (AVRO 748) which were supported by Alpha Technologies, Bangalore and EADS Defence Security, the system with six sensors fulfilled all the requirements in terms of detection probability, accuracy, false alarms and reliability. Due to this success, the missile warning system has been accepted as "indigenious equipment" by the Indian authorities. It is planned to equip several hundred rotary wing and wide body aircraft of various types. After initial production in cooperation of Defence Electronics and Alpha Technologies which already has been started, the transition to series production at the Alpha site in Bangalore is foreseen in the near future. ... . . . .

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 05 Jun 2009 04:43

Will this eventually replace DARE Tranquil/Tarang RWR on Jags, Sea Harriers, etc.? IIRC, the development of this system wasn't widely reported on in the inhouse DRDO publications such as the newsletter or Tech Focus. Maybe this reflects cautiousness in Indian defense industry's engagement w/EADS.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 05 Jun 2009 08:53

Arun_S wrote:DRDO and EADS develop advanced missile warning system for aircraft

Now the question is, how much of this is really desi tech. From the news article it seems like we just tested the system on our desi testbedwith some modification. Does this help Dare get ahead in the race?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jun 2009 09:09

This one complements the RWR. Its based on the long wave UV from rocket motor plume to make its detection. So whats the problem?

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 05 Jun 2009 17:31

India Joins the Star Wars
India's Missiles Fly Up the Learning Curve

http://www.army-technology.com/features/feature2001/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/feat ... ture56251/

a good article to read