The IAF History Thread

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 May 2009 06:15

Jagan wrote:lol nice video shiv, but the words chamcha and lifafa would mean you are losing the western audience. maybe you can find the english equivalent.

One nitpick though. Kacker went down in the area about the same time , perhaps a few minutes before Bhagwat and Brar were lost. So its incorrect to say he was lost hours earlier. The dispute is that we say he didnt go down to Alam and Alam claims him as his own.

I know nitpicks - and reminds me of the intense indo pak fora battles of ten years ago

Technically I think Alam was in the air (5-47AM) and not having his bacon and eggs when Kacker was attacking Sargodha. But hey - I was not making a historical document - the "Alam clock" winds back days and days.

But that story is so complicated and what this Alam story fails to highlight is the number of attacks made on Sargodha around the same time in that day. and the number of aircraft and pilots involved. The story " I shot down 5 in 30 sec" is easier to tell than the truth. I have just told an "easy to tell" version of the truth in "30 seconds on YouTube"

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 11:56

Found these old images lying in my dusty collections. Not sure if they exist already on BR, so...

KB729 in flight. Notice the unit patch painted on the engine intake:

C2769 against the Himalayas:

BTW, check the image of the C2769 posted above with the one already on BR:

I guess they were taken during the same photo op sortie...

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 12:25

Okay, this one is C2804 from the No.3 "Cobras" Sqn. Note the "Cobras" painted underneath the IAF tricolor on the tailfin:

The other COBRAS bird I found on BR was a not-too-close relative of C2804:

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 12:29

C2831 Against the Himalayan backdrop:

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 12:40

C2831(?) and a Mirage 2000 formate over the Himalayan peaks:

Say hello to C1505, which I believe we are looking at for the first time. A No. 223 Squadron Mig-23MF flies alongside. The Mig-23MF has now been retired from active service.

Question: can anyone identify what the unit patch on the nose of the Mig-21 is? Cannot seem to match it with any known unit patches...

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 12:51

SK438 seen for the first time(?):

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 13:06

Three strike aircraft in formation over the Northeast:

a) JS135 No. 5 Sqn "Tuskers" Jaguar
b) C2808 Mig-21 Bis
c) SM247 No. 31(or 221?) Sqn Mig-23BN

Query: Was the No. 31 Squadron ever known as "Arrow Head", or was it always "Lions"?

Also, take a closer look at SM247 and compare the unit crest painted on the engine intake. Does that look like the core of the 221 Squadron patch?

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 13:14

No. 10 Squadron Mig-23BN landing at Amritsar...

The first HAL built Mig-23MF RK?38 "Rakshak", 1983:

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 13:22

One of the first Baaz to enter Indian skies:

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 13:31

A No. 47 Sqn "Black Archers" Mig-29 (KB715) landing at Pune in the 80s. Notice the unit patch showing a black archer against a yellow circular background painted on the engine intake.

KB706 departing...

Another Black Archers bird. Notice the smoky engine exhaust...

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 13:46

The other Mig-29 unit: No. 28 "First Supersonics" aircraft over the Himalayas during exercises with Mirage-2000s:

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Jun 2009 13:50

A Baaz lifts into the skies:

-Vivek

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 01 Jun 2009 17:29

Lovely shots Vivek. espcially the MiG-29s . Looks like Peter Stienmanns work

Rishi M · Post by **Rishi M** » 01 Jun 2009 18:21

That's Jodhpur (Notice Ummed Bhawan palace on right, nothing like that near Lohegaon

)

vivek_ahuja wrote:A No. 47 Sqn "Black Archers" Mig-29 (KB715) landing at Pune in the 80s. Notice the unit patch showing a black archer against a yellow circular background painted on the engine intake.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5788 ... 28copy.jpg

KB706 departing... -Vivek

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 02 Jun 2009 04:08

technowizzz, your name has been changed to Tejas_W as per the forum guidelines. Please let me know if you would like to have a different handle instead. Thanks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jun 2009 06:54

Simply awesome Vivek Ahuja. Thanks

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jun 2009 12:19

Vivek saar....zimbley awesome....I'm a big fan of the MiG-29 bird....and these pictures are a real treat....i do not why our IAF or other services do not introduce calendars and posters of weapon systems and other related stuff....knew someone from West Germany as a kid...and the kid had these big posters of Leopards, Tornadoes with technical info, in service details and other stuff like Sqn. patches....and the same were available in stores as well as during various mil functions....the boy was excited like hell to join Luftwaffe after he had spoken to one of the fighter jocks of Tornado and who had also signed the poster......We need to build that culture in our people.....

I mean look at the snap with Mig-29s over the Himalayas and formating with Mirage 2000..these kind of things are more powerful than any other stupid 10-15second commercial.....and these things cannot be described.....these are awe inspiring pictures and tell you of what one can do, see and feel as an aviator....

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 02 Jun 2009 15:19

Vivek,

Great pics man, These pics are from old front line magazine right. A few years back front line used to post mid section articles on defence and had nice glossy pictures. I have a colection of old front lines dating from 1995-2000. IN one with cover of shakar dayal sharma, there is a good article of PAF and its airdefence network also.EVen INdia today had very good articles on defence in those days. In one there is an article named, "our god can kick your god". It had detailed information on the struggle between India and pakistan nuclear programs.

Rishi M · Post by **Rishi M** » 02 Jun 2009 15:31

[Jai -> Changes done, these admin messages will soon be deleted from this thread]

JaiS wrote:technowizzz, your name has been changed to Tejas_W as per the forum guidelines. Please let me know if you would like to have a different handle instead. Thanks.

Please change that to "Rishi M"

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jun 2009 13:41

shiv wrote:
Technically I think Alam was in the air (5-47AM) and not having his bacon and eggs when Kacker was attacking Sargodha. But hey - I was not making a historical document - the "Alam clock" winds back days and days.
...................

a very nice article by Rakesh on the affair, to go with shiv ji's vid.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... pter5.html

some response from Tom (cooper ?)
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6147

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jun 2009 19:30

I will add my two cents to the Alam discussion....but for now check this....

A write up on the Alam episode by Air Commodore Tufail Kaiser (Retd), PAF. I am gonna give a review of his article soon.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/200 ... assic.html

BTW...check out Kaiser's review of India (which he visited in April 2008). Praiseworthy at times, but yet condescending

Their we-are-superior-to-you-because-we-have-Allah-and-you-don't attitude is amazing.

http://kaiser-footloose.blogspot.com/20 ... india.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jun 2009 19:36

FORUM ADMINS: Just a suggestion to move the Alam discussion to the IAF History thread. Better suited there, than in this one.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Jun 2009 19:40

Rakesh saar, upto the post before mine is a discussion on the vid itself and the next two posts just round up the discussion.
may be we can simply copy the posts to the history thread.
cheers !

p.s. BR has gone through tufail's blog in detail, see history thread. looking forward to your review though !

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jun 2009 19:44

Rahul Boss: How do you copy posts from one thread to the next? I have no clue!

Do you just copy and paste?

I remember seeing someone posting his blog in BRF, but was not sure if the Alam article was discussed.

His explanation of how Alam shot down Kacker is quite amusing.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 06 Jun 2009 00:03

Honestly guys, while i'm not going to try and stop you from writing whatever reviews you all want to, i dont really see a point in giving a damn about what a bunch of useless and dilusional group of people have to say.

You know the saying, the more you ignore them, the more they'll chase after you like dogs!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Jun 2009 00:11

Interesting Find
Mr Kaiser Tufail writes about himself in his blah blah blog
"I was commissioned as a pilot in 1975 after my training at PAF Academy, Risalpur............

.............I retired as an Air Commodore in 2005, after thirty memorable years of service."

why pakistanis rely so much on lying on every occasion even on 1971 war?

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 06 Jun 2009 00:19

Samay wrote: Mr Kaiser Tufail writes about himself in his blah blah blog
"I was commissioned as a pilot in 1975 after my training at PAF Academy, Risalpur............

.............I retired as an Air Commodore in 2005, after thirty memorable years of service."

why pakistanis rely so much on lying on every occasion even on 1971 war?

What exactly did he lie about? 1975-2005 is thirty years. and he did retire as air commodore. so whats wrong/?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Jun 2009 01:12

I mean to say that he wrote his book on 1971 air-war , as if he witnessed whole of it [factually and through his naked eyes and also as if he was a part of OPERATIONS] ,while on the other hand he entered the air force in 1975,

isn't he lying ?just see the how they tell plain lies with a multitude of confidence ,..
whole pakistani forces are consumed with this lie-wins-money virus.
actually this makes it easier for professionals like IAF, khans, to get what they want,when they know that at war the w.cdr pig will be running to save his farm house instead of hangar

krishna_j · Post by **krishna_j** » 06 Jun 2009 01:34

Actually if you take the trouble to read all the Aeronaut blogs - Kaiser Tufail's though written with a home audience in mind and PAF sources , is pretty much as accurate as can be - what is important - is that its unbiased and should be taken from a historian's viewpoint - lot of it gleaned from personal interviews - as did Jagan.

Samay wrote:I mean to say that he wrote his book on 1971 air-war , as if he witnessed whole of it [factually and through his naked eyes and also as if he was a part of OPERATIONS] ,while on the other hand he entered the air force in 1975,
isn't he lying ?just see the how they tell plain lies with a multitude of confidence ,..
whole pakistani forces are consumed with this lie-wins-money virus.
actually this makes it easier for professionals like IAF, khans, to get what they want,when they know that at war the w.cdr pig will be running to save his farm house instead of hangar

its written in a racy style - does'nt mean one has to have an eye witness view of everything - then we would have no books

Tufail also does'nt support the Sargodha 30 second theory completely :

Alams kills as per Tufail :

– 6th Sep, One Hunter, Sqn Ldr Ajeet Kumar Rawlley, No 7 Squadron, KIA, near Tarn Taran.
– 7th Sep, Three Hunters; Sqn Ldr Onkar Nath Kacker, No 27 Squadron, POW, Burjlal; Sqn Ldr Suresh B Bhagwat and Flg Off Jagdev Singh Brar, No 7 Squadron, KIA, near Sangla Hill.
– 16th Sep, One Hunter, Flg Off Farokh Dara Bunsha, No 7 Squadron, KIA, near Amritsar.

Will fish out Jagan's book for cross reference.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 06 Jun 2009 01:48

Samay wrote:I mean to say that he wrote his book on 1971 air-war , as if he witnessed whole of it [factually and through his naked eyes and also as if he was a part of OPERATIONS] ,while on the other hand he entered the air force in 1975,
isn't he lying ?just see the how they tell plain lies with a multitude of confidence ,..
whole pakistani forces are consumed with this lie-wins-money virus.
actually this makes it easier for professionals like IAF, khans, to get what they want,when they know that at war the w.cdr pig will be running to save his farm house instead of hangar

You dont have to participate in a war to write about it. If that was so , then why are the BR webmasters writing about wars? I doubt if they had fought in any. (no disrespect to BR webmasters like Jagan and rakesh. so please please dont ban me

)

its okay to be jingo but it should not be that we should be blindly jingo

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 06 Jun 2009 06:53

I mean to say that he wrote his book on 1971 air-war , as if he witnessed whole of it

and i co-wrote a whole book on the 1965 air war - and I wasnt even born then

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jun 2009 08:15

Jagan wrote:and i co-wrote a whole book on the 1965 air war - and I wasnt even born then

Oh Jagan come on...stop embellishing!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Jun 2009 14:29

HariC wrote:
Samay wrote:I mean to say that he wrote his book on 1971 air-war , as if he witnessed whole of it [factually and through his naked eyes and also as if he was a part of OPERATIONS] ,while on the other hand he entered the air force in 1975,
isn't he lying ?just see the how they tell plain lies with a multitude of confidence ,..
whole pakistani forces are consumed with this lie-wins-money virus.
actually this makes it easier for professionals like IAF, khans, to get what they want,when they know that at war the w.cdr pig will be running to save his farm house instead of hangar

You dont have to participate in a war to write about it. If that was so , then why are the BR webmasters writing about wars? I doubt if they had fought in any. (no disrespect to BR webmasters like Jagan and rakesh. so please please dont ban me )

its okay to be jingo but it should not be that we should be blindly jingo

I think my post was taken in wrong meaning
What about those books on India's war of independence written even today?

It is correct that such books can be written later on but my post was parallel to what paki gernails used to do always, say musharraf's book which has so many lies in it about kargil war,JK insurgency etc,. he was there during kargil war, but lied about many things. i.e it is known that paki gernails have a habit of writing books at the end of their career and those books are written in the sense to make them as much sensational and profitable, and to cover some blunders of their own careers, and since the writer (tufail) reached a point where he has to write about 1971, how could he write radically different from others?say the truth?

On the other hand we already know that the 30 second air war of Alam never happened, this is proven earlier and is true,and yet few want to know what is pakistani pov

,
that said ,it shows that we dont have full confidence in our own history,and therefore people are always confused about it.
I just tried to highlight this above,not to tell who can write and when...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Jun 2009 15:21

Samay, with all due respect, both the persons who brought kaiser tufail's blogs to our notice, Jagan and Rakesh know more about alam and his exploits than any of us.
they certainly don't need any lectures from you on what to read and whom to believe.

they are certainly well qualified to judge for themselves.

I suggest you don't proliferate the "pakis are liars" line any longer on this thread. it is completely irrelevant.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 06 Jun 2009 19:25

Samay wrote:It is correct that such books can be written later on but my post was parallel to what paki gernails used to do always, say musharraf's book which has so many lies in it about kargil war,JK insurgency etc,. he was there during kargil war, but lied about many things. i.e it is known that paki gernails have a habit of writing books at the end of their career and those books are written in the sense to make them as much sensational and profitable, and to cover some blunders of their own careers, and since the writer (tufail) reached a point where he has to write about 1971, how could he write radically different from others?say the truth? On the other hand we already know that the 30 second air war of Alam never happened, this is proven earlier and is true,and yet few want to know what is pakistani pov ,that said ,it shows that we dont have full confidence in our own history,and therefore people are always confused about it.
I just tried to highlight this above,not to tell who can write and when...

I dont get it. what exactly did you find was so unbelievable in Tufails Book? If you were deep into Indian Air Warfare history you will appreciate the amount of research that went into it. The amount of new information that is there in his book. Yes the book is published in Pakistan and was written primarily for a Pakistani audience. While it may have a few viewpoints tailored for the Pakistani public, and a few of the conclusions may have been wrong, there is no doubt that a great deal of genuine effort and research went into it to get it right.

If it wasnt for that book, We would never known of the Vampire pilots bravery on Sept 1st (The gun camera shot from Imtiaz Bhatti for starters) , or that great story about Kacker's attempt to impersonate a Pakistani Pilot and get out of the Pakistani village. More importantly that book provided answers to many families on this side - by giving details of exact locations of the burials of Indian pilots. This is something that came entirely from the Pakistani side.

Also consider this - for decades there has been the official line that used to say that there were ten Hunters over Halwara or that Alam shot down nine Hunters even though indications said otherwise or that Amjad flew into Devayyas aircraft debris. Tufail was the first to state this was not the case. That wouldnt have made him popular with the veterans over there but he still did it.

Comparing Tufails book to Pervez Musharraf's ghost written autobiography with its Kargil fantasies is a great disservice in my opinion.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jun 2009 23:06

^^^ sorry, does anyone have a link to the vampire pilot story? i can't find it

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Jun 2009 11:23

Hi Vivek, is that the pilot's name under the canopy..... not a very common practice in IAF...

vivek_ahuja wrote:Okay, this one is C2804 from the No.3 "Cobras" Sqn. Note the "Cobras" painted underneath the IAF tricolor on the tailfin:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7092/scan0019r.jpg

The other COBRAS bird I found on BR was a not-too-close relative of C2804:

-Vivek

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 07 Jun 2009 20:34

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ sorry, does anyone have a link to the vampire pilot story? i can't find it

It should be in the 'PAF opens the account' article - but the photo was actuall published in the book.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 07 Jun 2009 21:04

The essential IAF History Library
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/S ... _06372.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/S ... _06365.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/S ... _06382.JPG

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jun 2009 22:15

^^^
good reference list !

Hi Vivek, is that the pilot's name under the canopy..... not a very common practice in IAF...

does it look like a name ? could you read it out plz ?
I can't say from this resolution.

IIRC I've seen pics of an IAF Mig-29 with the pilots name in a late 80's frontline issue, in a story by manoj joshi. no guarantees though !