Indian Naval Discussion
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
isn't ssn's main role to find and destroy rivals ssbn's ??
since its basically a "shock trooper" kind of philosophy it freely is expected to jump into the thick of submarine battles .... hence the massive redundancy built-in for longer survivability .... hence the larger size.
isn't ssbn's role to stay hidden and always be ready to launch CM/BM(s) within short notice ??
since its job is to evade combat and to hide .... its requirements are less imposing than an ssn's....
what are the strategic design goals for each class. Guru's feel free to educate us lesser mortals
since its basically a "shock trooper" kind of philosophy it freely is expected to jump into the thick of submarine battles .... hence the massive redundancy built-in for longer survivability .... hence the larger size.
isn't ssbn's role to stay hidden and always be ready to launch CM/BM(s) within short notice ??
since its job is to evade combat and to hide .... its requirements are less imposing than an ssn's....
what are the strategic design goals for each class. Guru's feel free to educate us lesser mortals
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Warhead numbers will vary wildly especially if the missiles are MIRVed.That makes nearly 36 missiles if they are all nuclear tipped then what kinda active nuclear warhead numbers are we looking at?
Also what is the usually projected warhead number(in % vis-a-vis another country) for a nation to count as 'Credible deterrent'
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Drevin
The irony is if we take the US case the Ohio is a 16000 ton monster while the US main attack (SSN) Los Angeles is around 6000 tons.For Russia the Typhoon is a monster at 22000 tons and their main SSN akula is 12000 ton.
Now is not our case a inverse of these....
VSudhir
I am not talking about MIRV ed missile , my question is if we are planning 6 ATV's and if they are to have MIRV or 36 Sagarikas then are we talking about 36*6 ready to launch active nuclear warheads. That is 216 warheads in itself, I am wondering how big is our nuclear armoury....
may be we are not as innocent as we seem to be.....
The irony is if we take the US case the Ohio is a 16000 ton monster while the US main attack (SSN) Los Angeles is around 6000 tons.For Russia the Typhoon is a monster at 22000 tons and their main SSN akula is 12000 ton.
Now is not our case a inverse of these....
VSudhir
I am not talking about MIRV ed missile , my question is if we are planning 6 ATV's and if they are to have MIRV or 36 Sagarikas then are we talking about 36*6 ready to launch active nuclear warheads. That is 216 warheads in itself, I am wondering how big is our nuclear armoury....
may be we are not as innocent as we seem to be.....
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Is it confirmed that the "indian" definition of ssbn conforms with the american/russian ones. sivavijay you are right. I was just being indulgent I guess speculaton is strictly avoided on br.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Last heard ( from BR chaiwalls) was that the hull was made at Hazira and floated down to Vizag for assembly with a planned second ATV to be made completely at Hazira....he submarine - being built at Hazira in Gujarat under the secretive 20-year-old ATV project - will slide into the sea but remain docked for some time as its nuclear reactors are fired up and all systems are checked
Not sure if the quoted statement is DDM or an indication of the second ATV also being built..
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
aah ! I love those names ! sultry sirens luring their enemies to their doom..Singha wrote:INS Meenakshi (the beautful first born), INS Mandakini (tempting enemies to their doom) and INS Mritunjaya (victory over death)
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
36 sagarikas . I don't think thats possible for 6000 tonne sub. The Russian Typhoon class SUB could carry only 20 missiles. We should be happy if our ATV can carry even 6 sagarikas/Agni IIISL.36 Sagarikas then are we talking about 36*6 ready to launch active nuclear warheads. That is 216 warheads in itself, I am wondering how big is our nuclear armoury....
may be we are not as innocent as we seem to be.....
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I think the first sub will carry 4 A-3SL or 12 sagarika. May the later versions are big ones with 12 A-3SL. I dont see the later ones carrying sagarikas.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I think DDM has the number of missile tubes confused. There are supposed to be 4nos 2.4 m dia launch tubes each will deploy a tri launcher equipped with a .74 m dia sagarika missile. = 12 missiles in the ATV.
Later this can be replaced with 4 nos Agni 3 SL (Maybe each with 3 MIRVs so that the number of warheads deployed remains the same)
The hull is built in sections at the L&T plant in Hazira, then shipped on barges to Vizag. The second ATV was supposed to be on the designing board - supposed to be 10000 tons +.
Later this can be replaced with 4 nos Agni 3 SL (Maybe each with 3 MIRVs so that the number of warheads deployed remains the same)
The hull is built in sections at the L&T plant in Hazira, then shipped on barges to Vizag. The second ATV was supposed to be on the designing board - supposed to be 10000 tons +.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
You are quite right that a 6000 tonne sub may not be able carry 36 six ton missilles. But then we don't know the weight of ATV yet.Rupesh wrote:36 sagarikas . I don't think thats possible for 6000 tonne sub. The Russian Typhoon class SUB could carry only 20 missiles. We should be happy if our ATV can carry even 6 sagarikas/Agni IIISL.
ATV - 104m long with 15m beam (as claimed by Wiki) - Volume 9184 m3
Virginia class - 115m long with 10.4m beam (submerged displacement 7800 tons) - Volume 4882m3
Ohio class - 171m long with 13m beam (submerged displacement 18,750 tons) - Volume 11342m3
Edited: Actually now that I look at it again submerged displacement numbers don't seem to make sense. Sea water has density of about 1027kg/m3. Therefore a 4882m3 volume can only displace about 4882 ton of water. Don't know to make sense of volume with quoted submerged displacement.
Last edited by abhiti on 03 Jun 2009 23:34, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^^ Yes I even had the same info ..if I remember correct ..I read from India Today earlier.marimuthu wrote:I think the first sub will carry 4 A-3SL or 12 sagarika. May the later versions are big ones with 12 A-3SL. I dont see the later ones carrying sagarikas.
So right now it will have 12 Sagarikas (and later 4 A-3SL with 3-4 MIRVs on each ) on the first ATV.
But later ones will be bigger ones and may have more SLBMs.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^^ Good reserch ..going by the Volume of the Subs (which should be dircetly propotional to the displacement.....Our Baby Boomer ATV should be around 9-10 000 tons ..Gurus any idea ?abhiti wrote:You are quite right that a 6000 tonne sub may not be able carry 36 six ton missilles. But then we don't know the weight of ATV yet.Rupesh wrote:36 sagarikas . I don't think thats possible for 6000 tonne sub. The Russian Typhoon class SUB could carry only 20 missiles. We should be happy if our ATV can carry even 6 sagarikas/Agni IIISL.
ATV - 104m long with 15m beam (as claimed by Wiki) - Volume 9184 m3
Virginia class - 115m long with 10.4m beam (submerged displacement 7800 tons) - Volume 4882m3
Ohio class - 171m long with 13m beam (submerged displacement 18,750 tons) - Volume 11342m3
If this is true, then our beloved Baby Boomer does not looks like a "Baby"
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
PER the article: the 3 Sagarikas per tube ar supposed to be 0.75m dia, while the Agni is 2 m dia!! For what ever that is worth. The Sagarika should have limited range compared to theAgni I would imagine.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
the Akulla II is a SSGN. (Nuclear Guided Missle Sub). No Ballistic Missles. Only Cruise Missles. Somebody correct me if i am wrong.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
http://www.eenadu.net/story.asp?qry1=10&reccount=27
The gist of the news is that, Russia is now planning to induct the the nuke sub into Russian navy before giving it to INDIA(it does not mention for how long) as per the news release by novosti news agency.
The gist of the news is that, Russia is now planning to induct the the nuke sub into Russian navy before giving it to INDIA(it does not mention for how long) as per the news release by novosti news agency.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
nothing new, that was always the plan. they are leasing it, not selling it.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Exactly. The lease is for 10 years with an option to buy later (which the Navy will most likely not do)nothing new, that was always the plan. they are leasing it, not selling it.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Its torpedo tubes can fire tube launched missiles (IN has Klub and Exocet part of scorpene deal).rkhanna wrote:the Akulla II is a SSGN. (Nuclear Guided Missle Sub). No Ballistic Missles. Only Cruise Missles. Somebody correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Not to mention SLCM. We dont have any now, but hopefully someday not too far in the future, we will have land and sub-based Nirbhay
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
If we do have a SSBN then what would be it's operational area? will it be patrolling only in the IOR(since we are so passionate and content with IOR alone), or will it be a global patrol.
My guess is a IOC patrol will not suffice , for one our Northern neighbour is one step ahead and has set up listening posts and bases all around IOR(even now he would have scrambled assets to collect data on ATV as it is launched) just to keep tag on our assets so that he need not search if he decides to shoot. The best thing is to go around Indonesia, OZ and then enter the pacific and then lie silently in waiting in the Dragon's backyard.... Maybe I watch too much Tom Clancy
My guess is a IOC patrol will not suffice , for one our Northern neighbour is one step ahead and has set up listening posts and bases all around IOR(even now he would have scrambled assets to collect data on ATV as it is launched) just to keep tag on our assets so that he need not search if he decides to shoot. The best thing is to go around Indonesia, OZ and then enter the pacific and then lie silently in waiting in the Dragon's backyard.... Maybe I watch too much Tom Clancy
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
According to wikipedia we have 3 ATV submarines in construction......
Let this be true..... (fingers crossed)
Let this be true..... (fingers crossed)
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
This august 15th thingy seems too suspicious to be the actual first launch, doesn't it!!Rupesh wrote:Water trial of indigenous N-sub on August 15
Excellent Names.... but doesn't Meenakshi mean "she who is bestowed with eyes shaped like a fish"????vsudhir wrote:Are these ATV names chosen already?Singha wrote:INS Meenakshi (the beautful first born), INS Mandakini (tempting enemies to their doom) and INS Mritunjaya (victory over death)
Wow.
I would have suggested an INS Kalki for our indiangenious SSBN.
Another nice name i can think of for the ATV is INS Markandeya, "The Immortal one"... but pseudosecularists may object.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Exactly. And that is why its called a SSGN. It cannot fire Ballistic Missiles. Only SSM/Cruise Missiles.Its torpedo tubes can fire tube launched missiles (IN has Klub and Exocet part of scorpene deal).
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
We can always name the nuclear subs with some of our illustrious fore fathers
My suggestion
INS MOHANDAS KARAMCHAND GANDHI
INS LAL BAHADUR SHASTRI
INS SUBHAS CHANDRA BOSE
INS LOKMANYA TILAK
INS INDIRA GANDHI
My suggestion
INS MOHANDAS KARAMCHAND GANDHI
INS LAL BAHADUR SHASTRI
INS SUBHAS CHANDRA BOSE
INS LOKMANYA TILAK
INS INDIRA GANDHI
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Don't think it's a very bright idea naming a Nuke sub after Gandhi ji.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
My List would be.
INS ASHOKA
INS SHIVAJI
INS SAMUDRAGUPTA
INS RANAPRATAP
INS INDIRA
INS ASHOKA
INS SHIVAJI
INS SAMUDRAGUPTA
INS RANAPRATAP
INS INDIRA
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
INS Tipu , would be my choice.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Yes, for all we know, she might just refuse to fire.Nihat wrote:Don't think it's a very bright idea naming a Nuke sub after Gandhi ji.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
better not drag in IG into this or we will soon see INS Laloo Prasad yadav.
better make it a rule/convention not to name after people who stood in elections.
anyway, IN does not name ships after people who lived in recent history.
exceptions have been made for Netaji (INS Netaji Subhash, base at kolkata) and IIRC there was a ship named after Adm AK Chatterjee, also IN's first Indian full admiral, if memory serves right.
also, ships of the same class should have some commonality in their names. IN too follows this practice e.g rajput class, talwar class all have ships that have a common thread among their names.
Coming to historical names I would prefer if some of the lesser known heroes are given a spot, lachit borfukan, birsa munda.
and of course the stalwarts of the armed revolution, Bhagat Singh, Surya Sen, Jatin Das etc.
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samudragupta will most likely than not be the next IAC. Also, how can people forget Chandragupta Maurya ??
better make it a rule/convention not to name after people who stood in elections.
anyway, IN does not name ships after people who lived in recent history.
exceptions have been made for Netaji (INS Netaji Subhash, base at kolkata) and IIRC there was a ship named after Adm AK Chatterjee, also IN's first Indian full admiral, if memory serves right.
also, ships of the same class should have some commonality in their names. IN too follows this practice e.g rajput class, talwar class all have ships that have a common thread among their names.
Coming to historical names I would prefer if some of the lesser known heroes are given a spot, lachit borfukan, birsa munda.
and of course the stalwarts of the armed revolution, Bhagat Singh, Surya Sen, Jatin Das etc.
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samudragupta will most likely than not be the next IAC. Also, how can people forget Chandragupta Maurya ??
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Let the subs come first,and let the babus name them at least if that brings some hurry hormones in them
btw
first ATV should be called INS Mangal Pandey, this inspires more than politicians
btw
first ATV should be called INS Mangal Pandey, this inspires more than politicians
Last edited by Samay on 04 Jun 2009 17:41, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
naming a ship is a much more serious affair than you say, or at least it ought to. and babus don't name ships.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
so what is the criteria behind naming a SHIP on a politician?Rahul M wrote:naming a ship is a much more serious affair than you say, or at least it ought to. and babus don't name ships.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Let us consider a nuclear submarine / nuclear warhead as a Weapon of Peace, nor a weapon of war. And Gandhi stood for peace and Ahimsa. If we have powerful weapons which we never have to use, that is the best use !!!!Chandragupta wrote:Yes, for all we know, she might just refuse to fire.Nihat wrote:Don't think it's a very bright idea naming a Nuke sub after Gandhi ji.
An old PT teacher would often tell us that legs are better weapons in a fight than hands, just run away !!
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
mind stating that in english ?Samay wrote:so what is the criteria behind naming a SHIP on a politician?Rahul M wrote:naming a ship is a much more serious affair than you say, or at least it ought to. and babus don't name ships.
while you are at it kindly also let me know which IN ships are named after politicians. (if that's what you meant)
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Naming process in a nutshell,
NHQ send out a signal to all fleet unit and establishments requesting names. Officers and Sailors send their choices that is assessed by NHQ. The shortlist is again sent out for comments. Thereafter a final name is selected.
For example, I recollect a lot of exchanges regarding naming INS Jalashwa. It was named after the hippopotamus reflecting its amphibious nature, however many officers remarked that the desi name for hippopotamus is Jal-hasti, not Jal-ashwa.
So it is a partly democratic process.
Politicians, once in a blue moon, do get a chance to name units -
IN air stations are named after birds - Hansa, Garuda, Shikra. Mayura was selected as the name for Andamans air base - given that peacocks hunt snakes. Indira Gandhi was invited to commission the base (or lay the foundation stone - cant remember). On learning the name, she wrote back that the peacock is a flightless bird that struts its feathers while mating and she will not commission a fighting base named after such a vain creature. Hence a new name was selected - INS Utkrosh
If memory serves right, ABV was quite keen but didnt get any chances other than Tejas. Or was Vikramaditya his idea?
NHQ send out a signal to all fleet unit and establishments requesting names. Officers and Sailors send their choices that is assessed by NHQ. The shortlist is again sent out for comments. Thereafter a final name is selected.
For example, I recollect a lot of exchanges regarding naming INS Jalashwa. It was named after the hippopotamus reflecting its amphibious nature, however many officers remarked that the desi name for hippopotamus is Jal-hasti, not Jal-ashwa.
So it is a partly democratic process.
Politicians, once in a blue moon, do get a chance to name units -
IN air stations are named after birds - Hansa, Garuda, Shikra. Mayura was selected as the name for Andamans air base - given that peacocks hunt snakes. Indira Gandhi was invited to commission the base (or lay the foundation stone - cant remember). On learning the name, she wrote back that the peacock is a flightless bird that struts its feathers while mating and she will not commission a fighting base named after such a vain creature. Hence a new name was selected - INS Utkrosh
If memory serves right, ABV was quite keen but didnt get any chances other than Tejas. Or was Vikramaditya his idea?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
IIRC Vik was his idea.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
One day , my dream will be fulfilled when nuke sub INS DEVE GOWDA will take to the waters
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Correction,150-185 vessels planned by 2017.New in one (name unmentionable) media publication says that the Akula (Nerpa ),to be named the Chakra, is an "Akula-3" (like the Gepard in service with the Russian Navy are 3+ gen. SSGNs) and will have 18 Klub missiles for anti-ship and land attack.The total weapon load is around 40.Displacement dived,13,800t.It will arrive in the fall after its commissioning in August and arriving a month later.The same report also says that two more SSGNs (ATVs) will be ordered fabricated at MD and shipped to Vizag for final assembly.Displacement 4,880t surface.
What was interesting was a report on France's new SMX-24 on offer to India for the future sub line,which has some revolutionary features,modular sections which can be reconfigured for different operations,UUVs carried which have a 200km range,revolutionary propulsion with fuel cells/LOX and superconductor tech.,38 heavyweight weapons,and a submerged endurance of 30 days.Good pic here.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 57f4ac4555
What was interesting was a report on France's new SMX-24 on offer to India for the future sub line,which has some revolutionary features,modular sections which can be reconfigured for different operations,UUVs carried which have a 200km range,revolutionary propulsion with fuel cells/LOX and superconductor tech.,38 heavyweight weapons,and a submerged endurance of 30 days.Good pic here.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 57f4ac4555
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Oh, but there is already one.HariC wrote:One day , my dream will be fulfilled when nuke sub INS DEVE GOWDA will take to the waters
It is the folder where the files for Pending Naval / Military acquisitions gather dust at Sena Bhawan.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
INS Deve Gowda can kill with its eyes closed ....p_saggu wrote:Oh, but there is already one.HariC wrote:One day , my dream will be fulfilled when nuke sub INS DEVE GOWDA will take to the waters
It is the folder where the files for Pending Naval / Military acquisitions gather dust at Sena Bhawan.