Indian Naval Discussion

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Jun 2009 13:23

Yes,the "chai-biscoot" mentality gloriously lives on.AKA is reportedly slow on the uptake too from media repoorts.The NSAB is in name only.Who are the new members and how often do they meet and what follow up action is taken by the GOI/MOD.You also have the Parliamentary Standing Defence Committee too which reviews the situ. MMS and AKA must make the running and send a fee lazylouts to Siachen or the north-east jungles for detailed on-spot inspections with a one-way ticket.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Jun 2009 21:52

SNaik - I saw the image now.

Barak is hot lunched missile. Hence exhaust diverter is built into the mount by the dockyard.

The foc'sle mount has the exhaust diverter installed but no missile VLS. The peculiar housing prevents seawater from getting into the foc'sle mount. There were similar ships during the last IFR. Maz probably has the relevant pics for comparison.

The VLS will probably be fitted during next refit.

BTW the EW suite is Ellora instead of C Pearl on Godavari.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 10 Jun 2009 23:59

Singha wrote:imo they are covers for the barak-1 vls hatches used perhaps in long transit cruises to reduce sea spray corrosion issues.


I think were seen before in some pix or the other

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 11 Jun 2009 00:18

tsarkar wrote:SNaik - I saw the image now.

Barak is hot lunched missile. Hence exhaust diverter is built into the mount by the dockyard.

The foc'sle mount has the exhaust diverter installed but no missile VLS. The peculiar housing prevents seawater from getting into the foc'sle mount. There were similar ships during the last IFR. Maz probably has the relevant pics for comparison.

The VLS will probably be fitted during next refit.



Thanks, Tsarkar, that's what I thought. Bit strange that older ships have Barak installed already. Not enough units purchased?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 11 Jun 2009 00:41


ramana
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2009 03:40

Book Review:

Indian Navy: Prespective

People in Delhi might want to buy it. I dont know how one buys this from abroad.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Jun 2009 05:18



A Russian diplomat said that Moscow is concentrating on rebuilding its own defense forces and is aiming at sales to Iran, and as such has reduced its emphasis on the Indian market.

Following the delay in the aircraft carrier, due in 2007-08, some Indian Navy planners have suggested scrapping the carrier and resorting to a fresh hunt overseas.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JaiS » 11 Jun 2009 05:40

'Nerpa' N-sub to be leased to India, after Russian navy trials


Moscow, June 10: Russia's Akula class nuclear-powered attack submarine "Nerpa" will be inducted by the Russian Navy after pre-delivery trials are completed this summer, prior to its formal lease to India later this year.

"Immediately after the completion of all tests, the vessel will be given to the active-duty fleet of the Russian navy, after which its handover under lease to our Indian partners will take place," a Russian military source said.




Navy, CG take to Napoleon for coastal security lessons

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 11 Jun 2009 12:39

SNaik,

The material is usually procured before work commences. So, you're right, its odd seeing it half done. This usually happens when the ship is brought out of refit before completion to fulfill operational commitments. I am guessing its refit was cut short by the events in November and will complete during the next cycle.

IN initially ordered 7 Barak for Viraat, Brahmaputra and Delhi, however diverted 4 of them to Ganga, Gomti, Ranvir and Ranvijay and again requested Barak for the "defenseless" Brahmaputra whose approval came later. That is why older Godavari has the missiles earlier than Brahmaputra.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby atma » 11 Jun 2009 12:55

Similar news on Vicky in Russian media:

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090605/155176052.html

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arunsrinivasan » 11 Jun 2009 13:49

NRao wrote:


A Russian diplomat said that Moscow is concentrating on rebuilding its own defense forces and is aiming at sales to Iran, and as such has reduced its emphasis on the Indian market.

Following the delay in the aircraft carrier, due in 2007-08, some Indian Navy planners have suggested scrapping the carrier and resorting to a fresh hunt overseas.


There was some talk (rumours maybe?) some time back of US offering Kitty Hawk to India, does anyone know what happened to that? If we had pursued this, maybe we would have had better leverage with Russkies.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Srivastav » 11 Jun 2009 14:04

^^ all of this has been discussed before, please check archives or the older indian navy threads.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nmadhav » 11 Jun 2009 20:19


Jamal K. Malik
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 11 Jun 2009 22:02


A old news but quite emtional

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ovein » 11 Jun 2009 22:45

When it comes to the water trial, does it mean trail before the entering the service? Or its just launching the vessel in the water? I doubt the former because we should have herad more.

but anyway wat will be projected time for completion of the SUB?

Thanks
ABHI

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 12 Jun 2009 00:11

ovein wrote:When it comes to the water trial, does it mean trail before the entering the service? Or its just launching the vessel in the water? I doubt the former because we should have herad more.

but anyway wat will be projected time for completion of the SUB?

Thanks
ABHI


You mean "sea trials"

This is an extended operational and technical systems checks where all the boats systems are checked out and proved and accepted as per agreed performance standards. This is mandatorily done before the boat enters service. This is an expensive and time consuming check and can sometimes take months and run into millions of dollars.

Each and every system is put through its extended paces, systems integration and backups are tried out and certified.

The IN will also carry out a somewhat shorter version of these checks before acceptance for lease.

Sea trials are expected to be completed by June-August. Thereafter it will first be commissioned into the Russian Navy and only then be leased to the IN, say hopefully by december

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Walter » 12 Jun 2009 00:39

FYI for an “academic” view of the Navy from outside, there are two articles in the current issues of Asian Security that examine the fleet and broader issues in Asia.

"Keeping the Dragon at Bay: India's Counter-Containment of China in Asia"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807510
By Iskander Rehman, a PhD student enrolled in the Asia Program of the CERI (Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches Internationales) in Paris who is currently preparing a thesis on India's Navy and Maritime Strategy.

And

"Delhi's Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, 'Look East,' and India's Emerging Influence in the Asia-Pacific"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807319
By Walter Ladwig, a Predoctoral Fellow at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

In the same issues there is also an article on "The Evolution of China's Naval Strategy and Capabilities: From 'Near Coast' and 'Near Seas' to 'Far Seas'"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... a911807485
by a professor at the U.S. Naval War College
Last edited by Gerard on 12 Jun 2009 02:46, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: username changed to conform with forum guidelines

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 12 Jun 2009 05:25

wrt the ATV,
What does the term 'water trial' mean? Is the dry dock going to be flooded for the first time, or is the sub coming out of the dry dock for testing - the sea trial?

Any jingo who can get into the Naval dockyard on independence day needs to file a full report with pics if possible.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ovein » 12 Jun 2009 12:52

THanks for the information chetak. My question is more to do with ATV. What about the "water trials" means/implies in regards with ATV???

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby maz » 12 Jun 2009 20:17

SHIVALIK Sea trials

Can anyone confirm if Shivalik has commenced sea trials.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2009 21:52

x-Posted....

From an e-mail

PLAN NAVY CELEBRATES 60TH ANNIVERSARY – FORGING AHEAD OF INDIA

By C Uday Bhaskar


The Chinese navy – or the PLA Navy (PLAN) as it is called celebrated
its 60th anniversary on April 23rd off the eastern port city of
Qingdao at a very impressive international fleet review that was
attended by 14 other nations including India which was represented by
its naval chief.
The very acronym for the Chinese navy – PLAN – is
revealing: the world’s third largest maritime military force is still
referred to as the ‘navy’ of the People’s Liberation Army – and this
choice of semantic is instructive.


From very humble origins on April 23, 1949 when Chairman Mao dwelt on
the importance of naval power – the PLAN that began with the
equivalent of discarded wooden hulls and hierarchically subservient
to the PLA is now a formidable navy. As the recent review revealed,
the PLAN now has a credible nuclear submarine fleet of eight boats –
some with ballistic missile capability – and has now arrived in the
big league, even though it still lacks an aircraft carrier in its
inventory.

This is a remarkable achievement for a nation and a security culture
that has been overwhelmingly skewed in favor of the land forces which
is part of the DNA of most Asian states including India. The last
such instance in which a country acquired a formidable navy in a
relatively short period is the manner in which Admiral Gorshkov built
the Soviet Navy almost single-handed in the face of opposition and
skepticism from the many Marshals of the Red Army during the Cold War.

But perhaps what is even more relevant apropos the PLAN’s 60th
anniversary is the co-relation with India. During a visit to Beijing
in 2003, this author had met some senior PLA military personnel and
analysts at their National Defense University and at the time, my
hosts observed with impassive candor that while China was ahead of
India in every aspect of military capability - it was only in the
naval domain that they lagged behind. But – they added - in all
sincerity – we will bridge this gap soon.


The Qingdao fleet review is in many ways a mini Olympics for the
Beijing leadership and is rich in its complex politico-military
symbolism. The panoply of Chinese naval capability included its
nuclear submarines - the veritable crown jewels – and the major
warships that have been designed and built in China. No nation that
seeks sustained naval credibility can rely on fiscal abundance alone
and has to move from being a buyers navy to one that designs and
builds its own ships in a cost-effective manner. Both India and China
have traversed much the same path over the last five decades by way of
their inventory dependence on the former USSR and now Russia but in
the last eight years, the PLAN has forged ahead with commendable
determination.

In 1961, the Indian Navy (IN) was the most credible and powerful navy
in the Indian Ocean consequent to the British decision to withdraw
from east of the Suez.
The Cold War was yet to enter these waters and
hence neither the US nor the USSR found it necessary to be here in a
sustained manner. At the time in 1961, the IN had one aircraft carrier
– the INS Vikrant and two cruisers – and the PLAN was yet to attain
any credible blue-water capability.

But in 45 years, the PLAN has steamed ahead of the IN and now has
almost thrice the number of total combat vessels (approx 630 ) and a
personnel strength of 225,000 that is five times that of the IN. The
budgetary support is also significantly larger with Beijing having
announced a total military budget of US $ 70 billion for 2009 which is
in contrast to India’s total defence outlay of about $ 26 bn.
The
growth of the PLAN owes as much to the military professionals as to
the political leadership of Deng and his successors who recognized the
inherent trans-border politico-diplomatic leverages that credible
naval power accords to a nation.

Consequently after the end of the Cold War, Beijing concentrated on
adding to its military capacity with Taiwan as the specific focus and
a concurrent emphasis on the lessons learnt from ‘Desert Storm’ - the
brief US led war for Kuwait in January 1991.
The RMA (Revolution in
Military Affairs) was internalized by the entire spectrum of the
Chinese national security apex – including industry and academia – and
due credit must be given to Admiral Liu Huaqing - originally an army
officer who was entrusted with the creation of a credible and modern
PLAN.

The 60th anniversary fleet review is testimony to the perseverance of
Admiral Liu and his political benefactors over two decades and the
PLAN is being nurtured in the manner it is, to equip China to manage
its complex relations with its two principal interlocutors – Japan in
the regional grid and the USA at the global level.
The void apropos
the aircraft carrier will soon be filled and the PLAN will soon be a
presence in the Indian Ocean region.

It is not evident that the growth of the PLAN has received the kind of
high level political attention it warrants in India. From having a
slight edge over the PLAN which it has now lost, the Indian Navy
remains the Cinderella service despite its very commendable pedigree
and professional character.
In the din of the current elections, no
political party has made any meaningful reference to India’s military
requirements and the contrast is striking. Beijing exudes ruthless
clarity about how it proposes to deal with its strategic
interlocutors. India – if the current election din is an indicator –
is determined to remain insular.


Jai ho.
***********************



And recall the USN wanted India to include PLAN in the Malabar Exercises. So most likely its because they want to divert PLAN resources to IN from Pac command?

Maybe the US should allow the PLAN in Diego Garcia for starters.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2009 21:54

Welcome Walter. Thanks for joining BRF. Hope its mutually enhancing.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avarachan » 13 Jun 2009 04:44

Ramana, thanks for the article from Uday Bhaskar. But worried Indians should know that China has its share of problems, too.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OD ... YzZDhhZTU=

Chinese Junk
The problems underlying China’s pathologies.

By John Derbyshire

Is China really a modern country? Can China be a modern country? Paul Midler’s book leaves you wondering.

After studying Chinese at college, Midler lived and worked in mainland China through the 1990s before returning to the U.S.A. to take a business degree. In 2001 he went back to China, setting himself up as a consultant to American importers dealing with Chinese manufacturers. This has given him profound insights into the Chinese way of doing business. In Poorly Made in China he shares those insights. After reading his book, you will find yourself thinking carefully before putting Made in China items into your shopping cart.

Midler identifies the features of China’s production environment that make a joke of all the free-trade slogans. There is, for example, “quality fade.” You cut a deal with a Chinese manufacturer to import beauty lotions in plastic bottles. You give precise specifications for the product and container. The first shipments are fine. Then customers begin to complain that the plastic of the bottles is too thin. You squeeze a bottle, it collapses. It turns out that your manufacturer has quietly adjusted the molds so that less plastic goes into making each bottle. Neither the importer nor his customers has been told of the change.

The reason for this:

"Factories did not see an attention to quality as something that would improve their business prospects, but merely as a barrier to increased profitability. Working to achieve higher levels of quality did not make me a friend of the factory, but a pariah."

In this, as in much else, the Chinese are great testers of limits. Just how much “quality fade” can a supplier get away with before the business relationship breaks down? You can be sure they will find out, and stop short a millimeter before the electric fence.

____________________

We need to spend much, much more on our military. But I wonder if the Chinese military is half as capable as some people claim.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby csharma » 13 Jun 2009 07:24

Does anyone have the pdfs of the articles listed below. Each article costs $30!

Walter wrote:FYI for an “academic” view of the Navy from outside, there are two articles in the current issues of Asian Security that examine the fleet and broader issues in Asia.

"Keeping the Dragon at Bay: India's Counter-Containment of China in Asia"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807510
By Iskander Rehman, a PhD student enrolled in the Asia Program of the CERI (Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches Internationales) in Paris who is currently preparing a thesis on India's Navy and Maritime Strategy.

And

"Delhi's Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, 'Look East,' and India's Emerging Influence in the Asia-Pacific"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807319
By Walter Ladwig, a Predoctoral Fellow at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

In the same issues there is also an article on "The Evolution of China's Naval Strategy and Capabilities: From 'Near Coast' and 'Near Seas' to 'Far Seas'"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... a911807485
by a professor at the U.S. Naval War College

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JaiS » 13 Jun 2009 07:34


kittoo
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kittoo » 13 Jun 2009 11:17

csharma wrote:Does anyone have the pdfs of the articles listed below. Each article costs $30!

Walter wrote:FYI for an “academic” view of the Navy from outside, there are two articles in the current issues of Asian Security that examine the fleet and broader issues in Asia.

"Keeping the Dragon at Bay: India's Counter-Containment of China in Asia"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807510
By Iskander Rehman, a PhD student enrolled in the Asia Program of the CERI (Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches Internationales) in Paris who is currently preparing a thesis on India's Navy and Maritime Strategy.

And

"Delhi's Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, 'Look East,' and India's Emerging Influence in the Asia-Pacific"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807319
By Walter Ladwig, a Predoctoral Fellow at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

In the same issues there is also an article on "The Evolution of China's Naval Strategy and Capabilities: From 'Near Coast' and 'Near Seas' to 'Far Seas'"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... a911807485
by a professor at the U.S. Naval War College


Yeah PDFs of those articles would be nice!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 13 Jun 2009 21:55

ovein wrote:THanks for the information chetak. My question is more to do with ATV. What about the "water trials" means/implies in regards with ATV???


This August 15th water trials is just an eyewash , they just came with some good reason to make ATV roll out public on that special day.It has nothing to do with water trials.

The ATV will go through stage trials process , once the reactor has gone live , they would be going through submerged test in the specially developed pens/hangers , once they are reasonably satisfied with the result they will go for harbour trials , where system will be put through its paces in a systematic and careful manner , most likely it may be accompanied with surfaced and submerged launched of sagarika slbm.

After that is done , they will go for deep sea trials where submarine will be tested to its test depth and all the electronic , sonars , speed , depth , emergency procedures will be tested to its limit and will be a critical and risky phase , they will also go for SLBM launches.

Once done the submarine will be good for commissioning in the IN , they should take atleast 2 years for all the test till commissioning if things go well , so 2012 is the most likely date ATV will be commissioned with the IN.

The first of the class will always be a challenging task to accomplish , good luck to the IN and ATV team.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 13 Jun 2009 22:30

The ATV will go through stage trials process , once the reactor has gone live , they would be going through submerged test in the specially developed pens/hangers , once they are reasonably satisfied with the result they will go for harbour trials , where system will be put through its paces in a systematic and careful manner , most likely it may be accompanied with surfaced and submerged launched of sagarika slbm.

Never know...we might have already started on some of these steps?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby atma » 13 Jun 2009 22:43

deleted
Last edited by atma on 13 Jun 2009 23:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby atma » 13 Jun 2009 23:08

Walter wrote:FYI for an “academic” view of the Navy from outside, there are two articles in the current issues of Asian Security that examine the fleet and broader issues in Asia.

"Keeping the Dragon at Bay: India's Counter-Containment of China in Asia"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807510
By Iskander Rehman, a PhD student enrolled in the Asia Program of the CERI (Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches Internationales) in Paris who is currently preparing a thesis on India's Navy and Maritime Strategy.

And

"Delhi's Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, 'Look East,' and India's Emerging Influence in the Asia-Pacific"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... b911807319
By Walter Ladwig, a Predoctoral Fellow at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

In the same issues there is also an article on "The Evolution of China's Naval Strategy and Capabilities: From 'Near Coast' and 'Near Seas' to 'Far Seas'"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... a911807485
by a professor at the U.S. Naval War College



Welcome to the forum. I must say that $30 for reviewing an essay just does not cut it for most members of this forum. Thanks anyway.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2009 08:19

yes the reactor and onboard systems may already be live dockside.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby marimuthu » 14 Jun 2009 08:28

AFAIK the reactor went critical 2-3 years back in chennai, and then it was shifted to vizag where it was integrated with the propulsion system and underwent the test.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 14 Jun 2009 18:36


krishnan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 14 Jun 2009 18:41

When was the deal in stable waters on the first place

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 14 Jun 2009 19:15

marimuthu wrote:AFAIK the reactor went critical 2-3 years back in chennai, and then it was shifted to vizag where it was integrated with the propulsion system and underwent the test.


Can a "live & critical" nuclear reactor be shifted for one place to another i.e. from chhenai to vizag and then put in a submarine ? It sounds creepy and rather dangerous to me.

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2009 19:40

ofcourse not. what he meant was the reactor was powered on in kalpakkam before being shut down and shipped to vizag. what I meant it was it might be powered on now and fully supplying power to the ship subsystems except the propeller.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 14 Jun 2009 19:45

Singha wrote:ofcourse not. what he meant was the reactor was powered on in kalpakkam before being shut down and shipped to vizag. what I meant it was it might be powered on now and fully supplying power to the ship subsystems except the propeller.


Hey i am not a nuclear engineer. But it is possible to start the reactor at Kalpakkam, run it for all the tri;as and then shut it off transport it to Vizag and put it inside the sun ?????

I really do not know.

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 14 Jun 2009 23:05

gorshkov is still cheaper despite price hike of 1.2 billion in addition to initial price 946 million knowing that russkies building whole ship inside out with all new systems.

the the price for 30 mig29k russians asking 75 million per aircraft its not just includes the price of aircraft but also aesa radar ,simulator,ground based equipment as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Andrew DeCristofaro » 14 Jun 2009 23:27

india bought only 16 mig29k for 45 million each in 2004

if navy had gone for 46 mig29k back in 2004 instead going for only 16 migs at that time each mig29k could be bought for 45 million but now country has to pay 75 million for each mig29k,

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gerard » 14 Jun 2009 23:32

csharma wrote:Does anyone have the pdfs of the articles listed below. Each article costs $30!


Walter C. Ladwig III, “Delhi’s Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, ‘Look East,’ and India’s Emerging Role in the Asia-Pacific,” Asian Security, Vol. 5, No. 2 (June 2009).
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Pacific%20Ambition.pdf


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