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pandyan wrote:HAL should have tied up with Tata to bulk manufacture Dhruv. Unless they learn to rope in pvt sector investments, they wont be able to compete effectively even with good products.
Actually Pandyan involvement of the private sector is an incremental process because manufacture of even a single aircraft involves fashioning of tens of thousands of components that no single entity (not even Tata) can do. HAL is such a behemoth only because the capability to fashion most components has been created "in house" either by HAL or other PSUs. This of course creates inefficiencies in the manner of "for the want of a nail the horse was lost". Any single "sick" or inefficient unit within the PSUs will delay the whole project.
The way to speed things up is to outsource components and even this process has bee started in earnest only in the last decade or so - literally under the gaze of BRF jingos. For private industry to be interested in making parts for the aerospace industry, it has to be profitable.
The dilemma is a little like providing an air service to the North east in India. Private airlines will look at profitability. Only the GoI has the funds and the motivation to run an non profitable airline to some towns in the North East. It is essential for the nation to keep every part of the country connected and supplied even if it is wasteful, - but not good business for a profit seeker who will never do that. Similarly - the PSUs were making aircraft parts in unprofitably small numbers from a period in time when no private company had the capability or motivation to do that.
pandyan wrote:Shiv Saar - Volume is definitely a problem and as you have rightly identified, ROI is very important for pvt sector. From various reports that are coming out, there is a steady increase in demand for Dhruv. If HAL is not able to ramp the volume, somebody else is going to grab it (even if the product is less than ideal). Outsourcing is definitely a way to reduce the critical path, but that has to cover large sub systems to justify investment required for the low volume product.
Even more daring would be to make a pvt company an integration vendor with HAL and other companies supplying parts. This would ensure that mass production is handed over to a pvt company with HAL focusing on design and new product development as well as low volume production for new products. It will be hard to let go of "control" for HAL/Employees, but this is needed to take HAL to next level.
Key to all this is creating a culture where customer is most important part of the production line. To quote Deming:
"Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of products and services, with aim to remain competitive, stay in business and provide jobs"
Even with Tata-Sikorsky deal, Tata would be probably start by assembling CKD/SKD kits and then gradually produce parts locally. Now HAL has essentially created a competitor when Tata could have been a partner.
Amen Pandyan sir, you just spoke my thoughts... lets just hope these guys (babus and beaurocrats) have learnt something from this and would let private companies participate in the defence sector sooner, if just to release some fresh blood in the industry... Just my thought...
Hi BR members,
i just want to raise this new discussion about the gunships and heavy lift helicopters.we all know that the defence department has issued a fresh tender for the procurement of 22 gunship copters and 15 heavy lift copters.
India has issued a global tender for the supply of heavy-lift and gunship helicopters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), estimated to be worth atleast $2 billion. The tender will seek the supply of 22 gunships and 15 heavy-lift helicopters, defence officials said Tuesday.
"The two requests for proposals have been issued," said officials. Names of companies invited to bid have not been revealed. A similar bid made in the past had seen expressions of interest from manufacturers such as Russia's Kamov and Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant, Italy's AgustaWestland, a unit of Finmeccanica SpA, and Textron Inc.'s Bell Helicopter unit.
While Sikorsky is expected to offer its famed Black Hawk, Bell will pitch the Super Cobra, Russian Mil for Mi-35 and Augusta Westland the Mangusta. Eurocopter, the helicopter unit of European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. (EADS) had pitched its Tiger attack helicopter for the tender while Boeing Co offered its Apache AH-64D Longbow model.
Boeing will also be pitching its heavy-lift, twin-rotor Chinook helicopter. The contract for this portion of the deal is expected to be worth around $600 million to $1 billion.
Sikorsky Aircraft, a unit of United Technologies Corp, also plans to offer its heavy-lift helicopters.
so what do you think guys which might be the best option or which among the above would better serve IAF
*FLASH* IAF An-32 crashes in the East
An IAF An-32 transporter has crashed in the Eastern sector. It has yet to be confirmed if the aircraft crashed in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh. Initial reports indicate that the aircraft departed Air Force Station Jorhat today at 1PM and landed at a newly refurbished advanced landing ground (ALG) in Arunachal Pradesh. After departing the ALG a short while later, the aircraft went missing and later crashed. As of 21.30 today, the IAF has still designated the aircraft as missing, though sources in Shillong and Tezpur have confirmed that the aircraft has gone down. A court of inquiry has been ordered. Sources say the aircraft was piloted by two Wing Commanders, and was carrying 12 other ranks, including some Assam Rifles troops. The An-32 was from one of the Jorhat-based transport squadrons (No.43 or No.48).
IAF moving Sukhoi base to the northeast
Tezpur, Assam (IANS): A squadron of the frontline combat aircraft Sukhoi 30- MKI would become operational in India's sensitive northeast next week, a strategic decision to move advanced assets close to the Chinese border, defence officials said on Tuesday.
A defence spokesperson said four multi-role strike fighter jets would land on June 15 at the Indian Air Force (IAF) base in Tezpur, about 185 km north of Assam's main city of Guwahati.
“Four Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jets would land first and soon it would be a full squadron comprising of 18 aircraft,” defence spokesperson Colonel R. Kalia told IANS.
Capable of carrying nuclear weapons and tailor-made for Indian specifications, Su-30 MKI is a variant of the Sukhoi Su-30 jointly-developed by Russia's Sukhoi Corporation and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for the IAF.
“There are more plans to improve infrastructure in the northeastern region, including developing four or five airfields and advanced landing grounds, besides putting our best assets in the region,” a senior IAF official said requesting not to be named.
“Setting up of advanced air bases and plans to increase military strength in the region is to meet future national security challenges,” an Army commander based at the Four Corps Headquarters at Tezpur said on customary conditions of anonymity.
Wow truly jointness being shown. IAF deployments being announced by IA spokesman at IA Crops HQ! Good going.
Guys,
I happened to meet a member of IAF (one of my old school buddies) and some how we started discussing on the effectiveness of LCA. Now I was hoping to hear a whole lot of bitching but what i heard i was something strange. It seems that the IAF guys are actually waiting for the LCA. In fact he went on to say that he would prefer to take the LCA than even the rambha for a A2A role in the recent scenario.
Sadly i was not able to dig deeper into this.. however i was wondering if someone might have any idea on why something like this was even possible.
Sam,
What "recent scenarios" are you referring to? The Rambha has its own, obvious advantages (range, payload, massive radar, EW pods etc). I expect the Tejas (esp. the Mk2 derivative) to be a very modern bird with the integrated Mayawi suite (ELS, towed decoy), AESA, TVC, decent range/endurance. So it will definitely have certain advantages thanks to its size and reliance on passive sensors. In combination with the MKI, it will provide an amazing amount of versatility to IAF tactics in the next decade or so.
...
The IAF Eastern Command in Shillong released the names of seven IAF crew members and six Army personnel who died in the mishap: Wing Commander Gitesh Jit Singh Butalia, Wing Commander P K Saji, Squadron Leader P Siddharth, Squadron Leader Manash Mishra, Flight Lieutenant Varun Kumar, Master Warrant Officer Ramesh, Aircraft Attendant Sanjay Kumar, Gunners V Singh, K Kumar, S Kumar, Naik B S Nanwhegh, Sepoy A K Tirkey and Radio Mechanic R Wangchuk.
...
The aircraft was being captained by Wing Commander ‘Boots’ Butalia (36), an experienced transport pilot based in Jorhat. IAF officers said he had reported for work after a family vacation in Sikkim.
...
Among the dead was a young officer on his first posting who had celebrated his 24th birthday last month. Flight Lieutenant Varun Kumar, who graduated recently from the pilot training school, was from Haryana. The only child of his parents, he had been awarded a commendation for “outstanding performance and devotion to duty” by the Chief of Air Staff.
...
Singha said two villagers who claimed they saw the aircraft exploding in mid-air accompanied the search party. Debris was strewn over a large area in thick forest.
...
How far is this region from the chinese border? Is there any reason to suspect foul-play by the chinese as there are reports of the plane exploding in mid-air?
A Russian diplomat said that Moscow is concentrating on rebuilding its own defense forces and is aiming at sales to Iran, and as such has reduced its emphasis on the Indian market.
Following the delay in the aircraft carrier, due in 2007-08, some Indian Navy planners have suggested scrapping the carrier and resorting to a fresh hunt overseas.
m mittal wrote:What do you guys think is the reason of such high rates of attrition in IAF??
1. Is is lack of proper training facilities esp limited advanced jet trainers?
2. Age of IAF fleet
3. Lack of maintenance facilities or protocols
4. Lack of support by the Originating country for spares etc
5. Corruption leading to procurement of faulty systems
I guess a part of all of these.....kindly share your thoughts
Its not high as it seems...given the number of sorties the IAF conducts on a yearly basis. Over the last 5 years the attrition rate has come down considerably. If you would go through the forums you will find the appropriate response.
What high rate of attrition are you talking bout. If you are talking bout the last 2-3 months well then yeah i have to agree all of a sudden the number has increased, but i still think although tragic, its still a statistical abberation.
If you are talking about crashes in IAF over the last decade or so well then ill have to say a lot of discussion has been done here regarding crashes in IAF. After every crash we do go in circles and talk bout how the attrition rate is so high in IAF but if you check the attrition rates in other big airforces youll be surprised how things are not sooo dire with IAF.
That being said, the current spate of crashes has definately raised some questions.
A Russian diplomat said that Moscow is concentrating on rebuilding its own defense forces and is aiming at sales to Iran, and as such has reduced its emphasis on the Indian market.
Following the delay in the aircraft carrier, due in 2007-08, some Indian Navy planners have suggested scrapping the carrier and resorting to a fresh hunt overseas.
In my opinion, the statement about Russia reducing it's emphasis on the Indian market, is a recognition of the fact that the Indian market is now attempting to diversify to non-Russian equipment. As such it would make sense for Russia, from a sales perspective, to not take the Indian arms market for granted and to rely on other revenue streams. In this sense, I don't believe that there will be a specific impact on the PAK FA project because it is not in the prospective stage, but has already been agreed to.
m mittal,
m mittal wrote:What do you guys think is the reason of such high rates of attrition in IAF??
Please provide your definition (quantitative) of a "high" attrition rate.
What high rate of attrition are you talking bout. If you are talking bout the last 2-3 months well then yeah i have to agree all of a sudden the number has increased, but i still think although tragic, its still a statistical abberation.
If you are talking about crashes in IAF over the last decade or so well then ill have to say a lot of discussion has been done here regarding crashes in IAF. After every crash we do go in circles and talk bout how the attrition rate is so high in IAF but if you check the attrition rates in other big airforces youll be surprised how things are not sooo dire with IAF.
That being said, the current spate of crashes has definately raised some questions.
Lets not discuss this topic again....as Srivastav has mentioned, everytime an IAF a/c crashes this topic surfaces and the same old points are discussed.
IAF is going through a bad phase which is not unusual for any air force. Infact compared to other air forces IAF has an enviable safety record.
Although even a single crash or fatality is a sad occurrence, but on comparison the recent IAF safety record doesnt look as bad as some of us believe it is.....Btw iam not trying to trivialize crashes or fatalities, its not really my intention and ideally a single crash or fatality shouldnt happen.
Sometimes i think we should take the above 2 links and make them a sticky or something, so we dont have to go through this again and again.
Also as shiv ji mentioned in the last itteration of this discussion, countries like pakistan and china dont even publish the attrition rate in their airforces.
RaviBg wrote:
How far is this region from the chinese border? Is there any reason to suspect foul-play by the chinese as there are reports of the plane exploding in mid-air?
I started wondering about the exact same thing the moment I heard that the crash was in Arunachal. I guess its not totally inconceivable considering the frequent Chinese intrusions there.
RaviBg
Post subject: Re: Indian Military Aviation
Among 13 dead in IAF crash: pilot back from vacation, 24-yr-old on his first posting
Singha said two villagers who claimed they saw the aircraft exploding in mid-air accompanied the search party. Debris was strewn over a large area in thick forest.
...
How far is this region from the chinese border? Is there any reason to suspect foul-play by the chinese as there are reports of the plane exploding in mid-air?
Folks, some questions:-
1. Isn't the AN-32 equiped with IR flares?
2. Could some of NE militant groups have heat seeking anti aircraft missiles?
3. Was there a airspace violation ?
More importantly, if a heat seeking missile is fired at an An-32, would it know?
If there was foul play, the pilot would have radioed back. The Chinese are pissed off, judging by their boisterous statements in their state-controlled media, but I don't think they would go so far as to down a transport aircraft well within Indian airspace.
If the aircraft had come very close to the border or gone across because of bad weather or any other factor, it is possible that the Chinese might have taken a shot. But even then I think it is unlikely - it would be too big an incident.
I don't think the NE militants are that well equipped by the Chinese.
"The IAF has already finalised that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will be manufacturing the aircraft and the firm order will be placed with the NAL by year-end," a source said.
This transport aircraft has suffered delays for a decade due to design flaws, an underpowered engine, excess take-off weight and non-availability of components following the 1998 sanctions imposed by the US.
However, when contacted, NAL Director A R Upadhya said that the new aircraft will have better engines that pack more power and engineers have also succeeded in reducing the total weight of the aircraft by 500 kg.
The cargo X-plane is the successor to the venerable and super-successful c130j hercules/superhercules. The competition for this lucrative business is basically between lockheed and aurora. Here is a link to lockheeds proposal as successor to the c130j that India have bought recently.
Saras could fill in the general liaison role within theaters kind of like us army has small gulfstreeam type a/c and SH60 helis for that....flying around staff, mail plane, operating off austere airfields (not sure if it can make it upto Leh and thoise though) , small high value cargo like electronic parts for C3I equipment, airborne radio command post & relay (a bit of a stretch), inter-island work in andamans...
Singha wrote:Saras could fill in the general liaison role within theaters kind of like us army has small gulfstreeam type a/c and SH60 helis for that....flying around staff, mail plane, operating off austere airfields (not sure if it can make it upto Leh and thoise though) , small high value cargo like electronic parts for C3I equipment, airborne radio command post & relay (a bit of a stretch), inter-island work in andamans...
idea would to free up Mi17s from such roles.
Exactly what the Dornier is doing now and is currently under production and has many many years of operational life left.
The engines also may be of the same vintage.
A little composites does not a summer make. ( bad paraphrase I know )
I think a stretched version of Saras would make a wonderful civilian airliner. Gawd knows India needs such aircraft in abundance, all over the place. Every state capital could be connected to its major cities with small airports all over. Specially useful in NE and A&N islands.
In the future, as business houses grow large enough that more and more acquire corporate aircraft to lug execs between metros and factory sites, this could be a indigenous option.
NAL needs to develop further and market Saras aggressively.
C17 Globemaster3 will be an awesome new path for our transport fleet. A bit surprising though. Atleast i am a bit surprised saptarshi awesome find Its a beauuuutiful plane .... And it has top-of-line performance. Its NATO's standard strategic lift aircraft. 15 NATO nations plus Sweden will operate this ..... We are truly going global. Hats off to MOD. Love you guys.
Last edited by Drevin on 14 Jun 2009 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
its a costly product. let us see how many we can afford. buying such products in penny packets is not a good idea. if funds are an issue, the stretched version of the Il76 armed with PS90 engines could be an option. long years of proven service here.
I don't see anyone pointing out that Natashas are out of favour and Susans are in.
The C17 does have greater payload capacity. This will bring in an entirely new set of maintenance ethos into the IAF. The IL-76 was still in the "spanner and screwdriver era."
since the IL76 seems to operate using pallets, I wonder if a commercial A330 freighter type can service most of the IAF bases barring a few really small/high ones?
if we want to buy 2nd hand I am sure plenty can be leased or purchased outright in the A3xx family or B767..and it can be concluded quickly with leasing cos than a long drawn out war among sundry lobbies. NATO has also leased various a.c for its expeditionary deployments to tide over shortages.
keeping them afloat would be less of a 'strategic risk' against US sanctions than the C17.
The IAF needs to step back and take a look at what it does and whether it can get a good chunk of its job done by using civilian a\c types like the A 330s.
We are infrastructurally better off now then 30 odd years ago so a lot of routine stuff can probably be handled by outsourcing to private cargo carriers.
This allows it concentrate on the awkward loads, weapons etc and loads to ALGs etc.
I am more worried of what it will do when the An 32s retirement- with all the options still a distant dream.
Meanwhile the idea of An 32s, Avros, IL 76s, C 130s, C17s, Embraers, 737s, can make one's head swim!!!
)
saptarshi awesome find