MRCA News and Discussion

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arunsrinivasan
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by arunsrinivasan »

Apologies if this is going off-topic, I just thought I should set put the record straight.
GeorgeWelch wrote:It is obvious there is a lot of distrust and dislike (even hatred ;)) for the US from the Indian side, but I can tell you from my viewpoint that it is totally one-sided.

India is well-regarded in the US. Sure there's some "They're stealing our jurbs!" sentiment, but everyone is quite positive about the country itself.
The vast majority of India has a very positive view of America, in the strategic community many people think India & US are natural partners, as we are both democracies, open & entrepreneurial (unlike Europe ;) ) societies. Except for the Marxists & fundamentalists who will hate America come what may, and these people are in a very small minority as the latest elections have shown. A lot of us believe, India has a lot to learn from America, e.g. fostering scientific innovation, world class university system, entrepreneurial support infrastructure, personally I think the greatness of America is in creating a more equal society, though this has changed in the last few decades or so etc. George Bush was (is) more popular in India than probably anywhere else in the world including the US ;). I think most Indians are very pleased with the effort America made in pushing the Nuclear deal through. Personally I wish US & India had a much closer relationship.

However it is the operational level (for want of a better word) I think there is huge levels of distrust, frustration, anger etc (which you might misinterpret as hatred). What drives this,

America's holier than thou attitude, seen in trigger happy sanctions mentality, technology denial etc. this has hit India's scientific community esp. the Defence, Nuclear & Space communities the hardest. Whether this is driven by some Congressman trying to prove his non proliferation credentials or the State department bureaucracy, still struck in the cold war, somebody or the other throws a spanner in the works.

Two American stupidity & gullibility, upto 9/11, I could understand your ignoring Pakistan & its terrorist infrastructure, but after 9/11 America has been taken for a ride by Pakistan, again & again, & you guys still buy all the nonsense which Pakistan throws at you & you reward them with more money, look the other way when they take your money & then stab you in the back. Though, I have to give credit to the Pakistan establishment, hats off to them. I wish our Indian government were half as smart as Pakistan in playing realpolitik. :)

This is without going into the incredible stupidity of invading Iraq, without finishing the job in Afghanistan & Pakistan, funding both sides of the terror war thanks to your attachment to cheap oil. Replacing scientific innovation with financial innovation. More on this later.
GeorgeWelch wrote: From a strategic point of view, the only country that is a real threat to India is China. And if China tried to do something to India, I can assure you that the US would be all over that. Not only would there be no restrictions, we would be funneling you all sorts of supplies and weapons and intelligence assuming we didn't hit China directly ourselves.
As I said earlier, America thanks to its focus on financial innovation rather than scientific innovation, which has led to the current economic crisis, & is also seriously in danger of being left behind in the next big driver of technological innovation i.e. green tech. China has America literally by its balls, at the moment, maybe one can argue China is equally screwed as it holds so much American currency. However as the lender one still has to believe China has the edge, in this light I really dont see America having the wherewithal to come to India's aid if push comes to shove.

Bottom line, maybe Super Hornet is the best deal out there for India, (am no expert, but you do make a very convincing case), the issue is can we work around all these other issues?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Cain Marko wrote:The MKI vs Typhoon simulations at Indradhanush were a good example. Cat and mouse is how one pilot explained it, and that means a LOT of things.
Such games are nice on paper, but in the real world, such situations never occur.

Amateurs get blinded by the shiny stats, professionals look at the total system.

The F-14 had superior stats to the SH in every aspect, yet the USN still couldn't dump the F-14 fast enough.

Understand why that was and you will understand why kinetics don't matter.
Cain Marko wrote:The EF btw, can do circles around a blk 52
And the subsonic Harrier shot down 11 and a half Mach 2.2 jets without a loss. And lets just say the kinetic gap between the Harrier and the Mirage III is far, far greater than the gap between the SH and any of the other contenders in the MRCA.

As I said, kinetics are nice, but overrated.

I'll take the plane with more advanced sensors and weapons everyday.
Cain Marko wrote:As far as sensors go, they can always be integrated.
This attitude of treating sensors as an afterthought is exactly what gets you into trouble. Sure, they COULD be integrated, but who is going to do it? And when? It takes time and money, and by the time you realize you need that capability right NOW and not 2 years from now, it's too late.

Sensors must be a PRIMARY focus.

It appears that the Eurocanards are always going to lag behind the SH in this regard and thus always be at a disadvantage.
Cain Marko wrote:And the shornet turned out to be a dud (at least airframe wise). It carries more fuel, but burns a lot more too, especially with its draggy weapons carriage end result is poor range for such a large bird
People use these talking points, but the truth is that the situation is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The range is fine. The endurance is fine. The maneuverability is excellent. The top end speed is fine.

I should also point out that the US is a lot more open about problems with its planes than other countries. Thus you hear all the bad things about the SH, but you never hear the 'quirks' of the other planes. That doesn't mean they don't have them of course . . .
Cain Marko wrote:Yes but even the basic versions of the other candidates are superior airframe performance wise. Add the AESA and bingo, the shornet is naked!
Cain Marko wrote:sooner or later the chinks and paks will get fancy gadgetry (AESA - already rumored to be on a J-10), what happens then?
Avionics and sensors are in a state of constant evolution. You catch up to the AESA the US had 5 years ago, and they've already moved on to the next latest and greatest thing. The goalposts are always moving.
Cain Marko wrote:none of the MRCA birds (incdng the Shornet) are really in full form, the IAF will end up customizing all of these birds to varying degrees
The SH is fully functional and fully operational. If India wants to add some other stuff, well at least they will be able to focus solely on that instead of trying to bring the plane up to spec first.
Cain Marko wrote:30 years later these birds will be the biggest duds amongst all the MRCA candidates, there is little doubting that.
In case you haven't noticed, the trend has been to place less and less emphasis on airplane kinetics as missiles improve with longer range and more HOBS capability. No matter how fast you run or how sharp you turn, you can't outrun a missile.

Just following the trendline, in 30 years the difference between the SH and the others becomes even less relevant than it is now.

It's actually funny because in reality ALL the MRCA competitors are ALREADY OBSOLETE because they aren't stealth. Forget 30 years, within 15 years, they will all be relegated to utility/low-threat roles because sending a non-stealth airplane into heavily defended airspace will be suicide.
Cain Marko wrote:You'd be mistaken to think IAF will be buying off the shelf, there will be some amount of customization on all these birds
There is a world of difference between bolting on a few Indian addons and integrating something like AESA.
Cain Marko wrote:not to mention other issues (the case of israel and the 2032s on the sufa has already been pointed out)
Which will be addressed in the contract or India won't sign.
Cain Marko wrote:The russians also enjoy a solid amount of experience in catering to IAF needs.
Like supplying tires for the Sukhois?

They also have a solid amount of experience raking India over the coals and going back on contracts when they feel like it.

Would you feel confident entrusting so much of your airforce to a single supplier like that?
Cain Marko wrote:not to mention agreeing to hook up any (israeli) aesa if warranted.
You act like this is a one shot deal. It is not. You get them to integrate the Israeli AESA and then what?

Who is going to continue to develop updates for the MiG-35? Certainly not Russia . . .

If you stand still, you get left behind.

The great thing about the SH is that you can piggyback on the constant stream of updates the USN is adding.

The MiG-35 is strictly a go it alone proposition.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Cain Marko wrote:The RBE2 is already ready @ production iirc. And was offered as equivalent of apg-79 for the Swiss competition. AESA hardly is that much of a BIG deal for any of the MRCA bidders it seems. And the more time it takes, the smaller the splash the aesa makes. IOWs, the AESA advantage of the US birds is running thin, fast.
Among all the competitors the f16 and mig35 represent a solo effort for us and would need a mamoth effort to justify. With no future these planes need not have been invited for flight trials!!
With the MiG-35, the bulk of the effort is already done - its called the MIG-29K. In effect, it requires probly the least effort from india as it will operate v.similar a/c in the K and the upgraded baaz.

CM.
You seem to be focusing on a single snapshot in time. It would be wise to also look to the future. In 20 years any AESA available today will be rubbish. And there is more than just AESA. EW and ECW are continually advancing.

So the question is who will be keeping the MiG-35 or the Gripen-NG up to date?

The USN has a long-term commitment to keeping the SH updated, which is worth far far more than anything any of the other planes can offer.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

sam_kamath wrote: take a simple case
in your reply you said "You will be able to put your own parts on it" .. It could mean
a> something which you have done R &D on and you want to put on it or
b> some thing which you have legitimately purchased and is by all rights my own part.

Most of us here do not believe US would allow us to do "B"...even "A" is a BIt iffy..
If the US doesn't allow both A and B then the contract won't get signed.
sam_kamath wrote: can the company spell out if it will transfer the AESA technology in black and white terms.. the simple answer is no... it will say that depends on the how the governments go about it...
The sale will be done through FMS, in other words the contract will be with the US Government not Boeing or Raytheon. So yes, the exact technology transfer specified in the contract is binding on the US Government.
sam_kamath wrote:also the biggest issue in all this is end user validation clause for all US equipment.. I dont think it would be possible for the Indian government to get represantatives from the US congress to forward posts and show them the aircrafts..
And again, if the Indian delegation can't reach an agreement they are comfortable with, then there won't be a contract.

Look, all the issues you bring up certainly could derail a contract. But the point is that they will be addressed BEFORE any signing. It's not like you will sign a contract and then suddenly be blindsided by a demand for say verification visits that you didn't agree to.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Drevin »

Drevin wrote:
As of now there is only aesa from khan i.e. apg79 and apg80. There is no competition if the mrca is decided today .... it will be f18 or f16.

Point is, it won't be decided "today". Expect another year for flight evals, then another for negotiations if you are lucky. So 2 years at least.


Quote:
The whole crux of the matter is whether the draama aesa has caught up with the khan aesa radars ..... Only then do the euro canards truly become an option in the mrca.


The RBE2 is already ready @ production iirc. And was offered as equivalent of apg-79 for the Swiss competition. AESA hardly is that much of a BIG deal for any of the MRCA bidders it seems. And the more time it takes, the smaller the splash the aesa makes. IOWs, the AESA advantage of the US birds is running thin, fast.


Quote:
Among all the competitors the f16 and mig35 represent a solo effort for us and would need a mamoth effort to justify. With no future these planes need not have been invited for flight trials!!


With the MiG-35, the bulk of the effort is already done - its called the MIG-29K. In effect, it requires probly the least effort from india as it will operate v.similar a/c in the K and the upgraded baaz.

CM.
The Mig29K doesnot represent the Mig35. And the Mig35 will be a solo effort ... very risky indeed!! Not in the russiam airforce and not a single other customer .... i think its not worth the effort.

Yes the RBE2 is in production .... Thats awesome news. However it hasn't yet entered "service". It hasn't yet begun testing with wide variety of missiles. Still a couple more steps to go.

The MRCA wont be decided today for sure. Thats why I gave all the credit for the teen series for today alone :mrgreen: Tomorrow is a different ball game.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by a_kumar »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
a_kumar wrote:At some point, it comes down to faith in the opposite party. It is highly lacking, justifybly so.
It is obvious there is a lot of distrust and dislike (even hatred ;)) for the US from the Indian side, but I can tell you from my viewpoint that it is totally one-sided.

India is well-regarded in the US. Sure there's some "They're stealing our jurbs!" sentiment, but everyone is quite positive about the country itself.
I see where you are coming from and I find the public viewpoint reasonably positive towards India. But, there was a reason I left "public" out of this below statement. As sad as it sounds, "public" perception matters little unless it directly relates to their day-to-day lives.
a_kumar wrote: The only way to deal with Congress is to have either one of US polity/media/pentagon/think-tanks reasonably pro-India.
GeorgeWelch wrote: That said, I understand that you don't share my view, so the deal will include both legal and technical safeguards. With detailed blueprints of the plane and components, what could the US really cutoff anyways? Iran received nothing like that and yet managed to keep their F-14s (a far more complex plane) flying for 30 years without any US support. I'm sure the Indian engineers are at least as competent as the Iranian ones. But unless Indian students overrun the US embassy and hold the embassy officials hostage for over a year while shouting 'Death to America!' it simply isn't an issue.

Heck, the US still supports Venezuela's F-16s even after all the anti-US posturing of Chavez. True they don't sell upgrades to them (as that would be a new sale), but they do support what they have.

If the US will support the F-16s of the virulently anti-American Chavez, they will support the SHs of India.
Supporting F-16s for Chavez? That is bizzare if true.

As for upgrades, gone are the days when you replace a part and the machine jumps to life. It could be something intentional like a trojon in software or something unintentional as a bug (that cannot be fixed without source software).

I can see this is where most discussions get stuck.. things like software and ofcourse, we will want all of it :)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Samay »

GeorgeWelch
Can you explain how much TOT will be there in the aesa of f16/18 ?.
We already know from media sources that it will be around 60 %, but which technology will be transfered in 60% is not known??
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

People.. don't get personal. Jamal pay attention. George don't get dragged into a tit-for-tat...

Welcome to the forum both of you by the way... Read the guidelines and enjoy BRF.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

When it comes to making money from a war in Iraq, few can match the firepower of the company once headed by Vice President Dick Cheney.

Houston-based Halliburton Co. can build roads and bridges and camps for American forces. It can transport personnel and provide other logistics. It can fight any fires Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein might set. And after the war, assuming a U.S. victory, it can help restore Iraq's infrastructure and oil production.

While questions remain over how much the work will boost the company's stock price, Halliburton's KBR engineering and construction division "is basically the 'corps of engineers' to the U.S. military," said Jim Wicklund, an analyst at Banc of America Securities. "It is expected that the occupying army's infrastructure could in large part be supplied by KBR."

At the same time, the company's oilfield services business, which is second only to Schlumberger Ltd., is likely to supply most of the heavy equipment to fight fires that Iraqi forces could set to oil wells and oil fields, as they did in Kuwait during the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

And should the U.S. emerge victorious, Halliburton -- which develops oil fields and drills for oil all over the world -- has the connections and businesses to play a major role in rebuilding Iraq and ramping the nation's oil production capacity back up to pre-1991 Persian Gulf War levels.
This is what drives us state department and consequently defense - the big money and big business -bigger the mess more money to be made - democracy be damned - us does not go to war for freedom or even terrorism it is a rampant aggressive gesture to make more mad more money
sadly supporting india against china do not fit the bill

so in that war us will not support india as it is doing now in case of pakistan unless some vital us economic interest is threatened

Russia and Israel is different as they have proved time and again - so even from the political point Mig 35 is getting the order -bi bi super big
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Shankar wrote:..Russia and Israel is different as they have proved time and again - so even from the political point Mig 35 is getting the order -bi bi super big
well.. they are proving to be different to what they were earlier.. your dreams will be short lived, if corrections don't happen with Russkies. They have a good handle thus far, but doesnt mean they have every right to take US for a ride. :)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Samay wrote:GeorgeWelch
Can you explain how much TOT will be there in the aesa of f16/18 ?.
We already know from media sources that it will be around 60 %, but which technology will be transfered in 60% is not known??
Of course not, I'm not involved in the negotiations.

This is where you have to trust your procurement people to work out the deal that is best for India

Shankar wrote: sadly supporting india against china do not fit the bill

so in that war us will not support india
What was the economic motive the last time we supported India against China?

Anyone who thinks we fight wars to make money reasons hasn't been paying attention.

Korea
Vietnam
Grenada
Panama
Gulf War
Bosnia
Somalia

Most especially, how does our continued support of Israel and resulting antagonism of arabs make us money?

And if we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for money we would have to be the absolute stupidest country of all time. Those wars have been nothing but a drain on the US. All the oil produced there would only cover a fraction of our expenses, except most of that oil money isn't even going to us!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

so be it!.. he has his opinion that may be argued for a healthy discussion. imho.

btw, one can't associate an instant with an abstract news link. please revert back to topic rather attacking each other.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

welcome george

Jamal - can you can your imagination and stick to facts.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kersi D »

[/quote]

The USN has a long-term commitment to keeping the SH updated, which is worth far far more than anything any of the other planes can offer.

[/quote]

Does the USN really have a long term commitment on SH ? Would it not dump it when F 35 enters service ?

India and Indians do have fairly high regards for US. But it is US's attitude to Pakistan than really bugs Indians. Inspite of 9/11 and all the other direct / indirect / circumstantial evidence US wnats to give Pakistan BILLIONS of US$, for arms !! How is Pakistan going to use P 3 Orions and Harpoons against the "Afghan terrorists" beats my imagination.

US tell India "keep talking to pakistan. Well one question

HOW MUCH DID THE US TALK WITH AFGHANISTAN / AL QAIDA AFTER 9/11 ?


K
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SanjibGhosh »

Ajatshatru wrote:I, to a certain extent, agree with Jamal. Something definitely seems rotten in the state of Denmark (daal main kuch kaala hain) as Mr George is suspiciously sounding, more & more, like a spokesperson for/of a particular American company.
It might be. But let it be as long as he is logical. I am not also sure being an agent what to be his benefit lobbing in BR, instead he could have been lobbing in MOD.

It might be that he just like SH.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Every plane has their fanbois.

And of course I root for the home team :wink:

I'm actually much more of an F-35 (LockMart) fan and think it would be a superb addition to India's fleet, but since it's not in the running, I think the SH (Boeing) is a better choice than the F-16 (LockMart) for it's flexibility, upgrade potential and long-term commitment from the USN. It's also a more modern design, which is important not for kinetics, but for ease of maintenance issues.

After watching India constantly struggle with maintenance and upgrade and safety issues across their fleet, I just feel a reliable, safe, affordable, well-supported, no drama plane is just what India needs at the moment.

Others of course have different opinions, and that is fine. It's always interesting to discuss issues with people half a world away.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Kersi D wrote:Does the USN really have a long term commitment on SH ?
yes
Kersi D wrote:Would it not dump it when F 35 enters service ?
no

Here is my previous post on the situation:
The F-35 is NOT replacing the SH, it is replacing the legacy Hornet (F/A-18 A-D).

The USN has almost 600 legacy hornets that are nearing the end of their service life, despite maintenance efforts to take from the designed 6000 hours to 10000 hours.

The USN has absolutely no plan to get rid of the SHs and they are very much a part of the Navy's future.
The USN would have to get 600 F-35s before they even think of replacing the SH and if you've looked at the procurement schedule, that is decades away.

The plan is to run the SHs till their wings fall off. And considering they are trying to push through a multi-year buy for 150 more SHs over the next 5 years, well, let's just say the SH has a long, long time left with the USN
India and Indians do have fairly high regards for US. But it is US's attitude to Pakistan than really bugs Indians. Inspite of 9/11 and all the other direct / indirect / circumstantial evidence US wnats to give Pakistan BILLIONS of US$, for arms !! How is Pakistan going to use P 3 Orions and Harpoons against the "Afghan terrorists" beats my imagination.
I'm not going to defend the US policy on Pakistan, but basically the US needs Pakistan's cooperation at the moment and that cooperation has to be bought.

On the bright side, from all the moaning about attached strings and sovereignty issues, you all should know quite well that the US isn't going to allow Pakistan to use them against India in any meaningful way :wink:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SanjibGhosh »

GeorgeWelch wrote:Every plane has their fanbois.

And of course I root for the home team :wink:

I'm actually much more of an F-35 (LockMart) fan and think it would be a superb addition to India's fleet, but since it's not in the running, I think the SH (Boeing) is a better choice than the F-16 (LockMart) for it's flexibility, upgrade potential and long-term commitment from the USN. It's also a more modern design, which is important not for kinetics, but for ease of maintenance issues.

After watching India constantly struggle with maintenance and upgrade and safety issues across their fleet, I just feel a reliable, safe, affordable, well-supported, no drama plane is just what India needs at the moment.

Others of course have different opinions, and that is fine. It's always interesting to discuss issues with people half a world away.
Well in that sense MK2 has an excellent record for India and I believe that Rafale would be the same. There are +ve and -ve side of all the contender and that is the reason no one is a clear winner here. I agree that SH would be a good choice, but what bother me most is the reliability of US not the SH.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by p_saggu »

GeorgeWelch wrote:On the bright side, from all the moaning about attached strings and sovereignty issues, you all should know quite well that the US isn't going to allow Pakistan to use them against India in any meaningful way :wink:
Bad bad choice of words.
Raises those suspicions even further. :rotfl:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Drevin »

:mrgreen: What else will happen .... u all pushed George into a corner. He's on the defensive.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

p_saggu wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:On the bright side, from all the moaning about attached strings and sovereignty issues, you all should know quite well that the US isn't going to allow Pakistan to use them against India in any meaningful way :wink:
Bad bad choice of words.
Raises those suspicions even further. :rotfl:
Not at all.

Many of those rules were put in place expressly to deal with a client like Pakistan that we don't trust.

We trust India more so you should be able to negotiate more relaxation of the rules.

Pakistan got no such break.
SanjibGhosh wrote: Well in that sense MK2 has an excellent record for India and I believe that Rafale would be the same.
Well certainly it could. The difference is it isn't proven.

I like this quote from wikipedia about the Mirage 2000, as it shows the advantage of a plane like the SH.
In 1999 when the Kargil conflict broke out, the Mirage 2000 performed well during the whole conflict in the Himalayan peaks, even though the Mirages supplied to India had limited air interdiction capability and had to be heavily modified to drop dumb and laser-guided bombs. The two Mirage squadrons flew a total of 515 sorties, and in 240 strike missions dropped 55,000 kg of ordnance. Easy maintenance and a very high sortie rate made the Mirage 2000 one of the most efficient fighter of the Indian Air Force in the conflict
So it could barely fight A2A or A2G, but it was the most effective fighter because, by golly, it flew!

Getting the SH that not only flies, but is actually fully functional out of the box, well it will be a welcome change I'm sure.

Also, the French commitment to upgrade the Rafale has been somewhat uncertain.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Kersi D wrote:Does the USN really have a long term commitment on SH ?
yes
The F-18 E/F - yes. Which is what is being offered to India.

The F-18 A-D - No. This being phased out.
If the US will support the F-16s of the virulently anti-American Chavez, they will support the SHs of India.
Not necessarily. Depends on who India is fighting and what is the position of the US.

I would think ANY US supply of military equipment will be as an extension of the US. Which is true of any super power. That is to be expected. India has to manage that to her advantage.
Last edited by NRao on 14 Jun 2009 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Himanshu »

AND btw.. Rafael is not the primary earner for Dassault. Those guys have been seeing more money in Civil for quite some time and their main focus is in Civil than Military jets. It's a very good aircraft no doubt but I am not very sure of the further upgrade commitment from the French forces as well as manufacturers.. all it's upgrades are running way behind the schedule at this point of time..
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Dassault has to twist the GoFr arms to fund the AESA - for export!!!

It will be nice if the French could sell the Rafale to the EF group.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Does not really matter how current, what matters is the end product. And the shornet turned out to be a dud (at least airframe wise). It carries more fuel, but burns a lot more too, especially with its draggy weapons carriage end result is poor range for such a large bird. Not to mention low speed, acceleration, climb rate, turn rates. Sure its no b-52, but it ain't no rafale either! Whats worse is that unlike a rafale or mig-29k, they can't even reduce weight for the landbased versions, there are "vibration" issues. So the shornet HAS to remain fat - no liposuction possible there. Those 25000lb engines better come quick! :D or the bird is lost and with it, so is the carrier (exaggeration of course).
CM ji,

I thought you read most posts.

GE is addressing BOTH issues: the engine power and fuel efficiency. Posted that article a few days ago.

We need to remember that as far as SH is concerned, the USN is FAR more interested in improving every aspect of it. USN really does not care about IAF purchase per se. But, any improvement funded by the USN could be beneficial to the IAF too.

That arg is not true for the other participants (for what it is worth). MiG-35 is going nowhere (outside of MRCA), Rafale (my fav) has reached its funding limits, EF - do not know too much, but UK seems to be wanting out of the deal, Grip really does not matter (IF IAF selects this one, it should be far diff than what is in its native country).
Gerard
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Jamal, cease and desist with your personal attacks and flamebaiting. If you cannot make reasoned, well informed arguments, don't post in this thread.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Gerard »

GeorgeWelch wrote:On the bright side, from all the moaning about attached strings and sovereignty issues, you all should know quite well that the US isn't going to allow Pakistan to use them against India in any meaningful way :wink:
:mrgreen:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=10170
February 94, 1954

Dear Mr. Prime Minister:

I send you this personal message because I want you to know about my decision to extend military aid to Pakistan before it is public knowledge and also because I want you to know directly from me that this step does not in any way affect the friendship we feel for India. Quite the contrary. We will continually strive to strengthen the warm and enduring friendship between our two countries.

Our two Governments have agreed that our desires for peace are in accord. It has also been understood that if our interpretation of existing circumstances and our belief in how to achieve our goals differ, it is the right and duty of sovereign nations to make their own decisions. Having studied long and carefully the problem of opposing possible aggression in the Middle East, I believe that consultation between Pakistan and Turkey about security problems will serve the interests not only of Pakistan and Turkey but also of the whole free world. Improvement in Pakistan's defensive capability will also serve these interests and it is for this reason that our aid will be given. This Government's views on this subject are elaborated in a public statement I will release, a copy of which Ambassador Allen will give you.

What we are proposing to do, and what Pakistan is agreeing to, is not directed in any way against India. And I am confirming publicly that if our aid to any country, including Pakistan, is misused and directed against another in aggression I will undertake immediately, in accordance with my constitutional authority, appropriate action both within and without the UN to thwart such aggression. I believe that the Pakistan-Turkey collaboration agreement which is being discussed is sound evidence of the defensive purposes which both countries have in mind.

I know that you and your Government are keenly aware of the need for economic progress as a prime requisite for stability and strength. This Government has extended assistance to India in recognition of this fact, and I am recommending to Congress a continuation of economic and technical aid for this reason. We also believe it in the interest of the free world that India have a strong military defense capability and have admired the effective way your Government has administered your military establishment. If your Government should conclude that circumstances require military aid of a type contemplated by our mutual security legislation, please be assured that your request would receive my most sympathetic consideration.

I regret that there has been such widespread and unfounded speculation on this subject. Now that the facts are known, I hope that the real import of our decision will be understood.

With best wishes,

Sincerely,

DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER
Colombo, Sri Lanka
1956
Cable to President Eisenhower from Secretary of State John Foster Dulles
The one distinct impression that I gained is their almost pathological fear of Pakistan. I knew, of course, that they did not like our alliance with, and armament program for, Pakistan, but I never appreciated the full depth of their feeling.... I do not think we can alter our Pakistan relationship which is of great value, but I do think we must try to handle it in ways which give maximum assurance to India that our military aid will be only used for purely defensive purposes
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SanjibGhosh »

In 1999 when the Kargil conflict broke out, the Mirage 2000 performed well during the whole conflict in the Himalayan peaks, even though the Mirages supplied to India had limited air interdiction capability and had to be heavily modified to drop dumb and laser-guided bombs. The two Mirage squadrons flew a total of 515 sorties, and in 240 strike missions dropped 55,000 kg of ordnance. Easy maintenance and a very high sortie rate made the Mirage 2000 one of the most efficient fighter of the Indian Air Force in the conflict
So it could barely fight A2A or A2G, but it was the most effective fighter because, by golly, it flew!

Getting the SH that not only flies, but is actually fully functional out of the box, well it will be a welcome change I'm sure.

Also, the French commitment to upgrade the Rafale has been somewhat uncertain.

Well, I am comparing Rafale with SH, not with MK2. I believe that a in the current form Rafale is miles ahead of SH (hope AESA will be fully operationalized soon). So I am not worried about the upgrade of Rafale as it the most contemporary fighter in race, whereas SH pretty old. Hence Rafale does not requires any immediate upgrade. I am not saying SH bad (it is no 2 in my list) but the concern is the reliability of US.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

SanjibGhosh wrote: I believe that a in the current form Rafale is miles ahead of SH (hope AESA will be fully operationalized soon).
The Rafale couldn't lase it's own bombs in Afghanistan.

That lack of basic functionality indicates to me that it is still half-baked.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

We seem to be going around in circle on some topics:
Rafale as it the most contemporary fighter in race, whereas SH pretty old
Who said?

Rafale: Production orders were placed in 1988.

F-18 E/F: First production model delivered to the U.S. Navy in December 1998

And, the F-18 Growler is: 2007!!

SanjibGhosh ji,

I think you are confusing the F-18 E/F with the older F-18 models (a very common mistake).
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

And, just as a FYI, from the same URL I posted above:
In the mid-1970s, both the French Air Force (Armée de l'Air) and Navy (Aéronavale) had a requirement (the Navy's being rather more pressing) to find a new generation of fighter (principally to replace AdlA SEPECAT Jaguars and Aéronavale F-8 Crusaders), and their requirements were similar enough to be merged into one project.[4] Dassault considered cooperating in the development of the aircraft that was eventually called the Eurofighter Typhoon but the French government cited the need to field an aircraft sooner than Eurofighter.[citation needed]
Prototype Dassault Rafale A

The Rafale A technology demonstrator was rolled out in late 1985 and made its maiden flight on 4 July 1986.
And, just BTW, the F-22 was conceived in the 80s.

Back to the thread.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

To be fair, those are comparing different dates.

First prototype flight:
Rafale: 1986
SH: 1995

First flight of a production frame:
Rafale: 1998
SH: 1998

As you can see, progress on the SH has been much swifter.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Andrew DeCristofaro »

all these aircraft are excellent but the fact that its indian govt. which is delaying this process :D
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by KrishG »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
To be fair, those are comparing different dates.

First prototype flight:
Rafale: 1986
SH: 1995

First flight of a production frame:
Rafale: 1998
SH: 1998

As you can see, progress on the SH has been much swifter.
The development time of SH was swift because it was largely based on the legacy Hornets.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by p_saggu »

I don't agree with the assertion that because the US Navy has invested in the SH it has a more certain development future and the others do not.

New technology incorporation in all fighter aircraft is never fighter aircraft specific to begin with. For example the AESA was never designed with the SH in mind. As technology advanced, all fighters came to be equipped with it.
The US Navy will develop the SH to suit its needs and doctrines. The US follows the doctrine where large force engagements take place under the umbrella of an AWACS, there must be more customizations that the US would make.
How does this translate to IAF benefitting form a US lead doctrinal advancements?

The Eurocanards will also keep upgrading as newer technology keeps coming into the fighter aircraft arena. They have to, these nations have invested in these aircraft too. So also the Mig-35.

Isn't the Mig-35 a Super Mig-29 already? Where does it say that one fine day Russia will stop developing further advancements for its fighters?

The USN developing the SH is a double edged sword. Look at the Pakistani F-16s. The US says you can get block 50 upgrade onlee. But does block 50 upgrade suit India's needs? NO. tomorrow the US may say you can get X upgrade to the SH onlee, not the Y and Z that the USN has.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by p_saggu »

The issue is less about capability of the aircraft, and more of freedom of operation.
It is like a Miss universe contest, all the contestants are winners, all will meet the RFP on the day the deadline ends.
The winner will be the one who is the most consistant, and answers the final question well. The final question will invariably be, "Can we trust the manufacturer?" This is where the US might be handicapped

India has certain issues where there is a possibility that Indo-US swords may cross.
1. Nuclear weapons development - It is a forgone conclusion that one fine day India will test nuclear weapons further.
2. War of Terror - It is increasingly apparant that the US's war of terrror is not the same as India's war on terror, since US leverage with pakistan does not seem to result in a reduction of the terrorist attacks on India - it might lead to the terrorists being simply redirected at India and away from the US.
3. China - The US is so heavily interdependent with China now that the US will not be in a position to play even in the event of a India - china conflagration.
4. India's emergence as an independent power center - The key word here is Independent. The US does not like too much independence of thought. The last we heard was that the french were arrogant when they decided to critisize the US in the second gulf war - this behavior with a nation that can only be one of the strongest ally to the US. India has nations like China, Iran, Terrorist Pakistan as neighbours, with whom India has to somehow peacefully coexist - foreign policy will be different for India and the US.
Last edited by p_saggu on 15 Jun 2009 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
Jamal K. Malik
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Jamal K. Malik »

Gerard wrote:Jamal, cease and desist with your personal attacks and flamebaiting. If you cannot make reasoned, well informed arguments, don't post in this thread.
Sir,Thanks
I think you are well informed.If it is you wish i will not post.
He is sitting in HQ of boeing how come I have well inform arguments wrt that fellow. Even all of this is not helping you what I can do
!!!
You want to know reasons,unkill never come for help any of his friend. moreever,

Unkill never had friends only arrangment
Last edited by Jamal K. Malik on 15 Jun 2009 00:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by KrishG »

The USN developing the SH is a double edged sword. Look at the Pakistani F-16s. The US says you can get block 50 upgrade onlee. But does block 50 upgrade suit India's needs? NO. tomorrow the US may say you can get X upgrade to the SH onlee, not the Y and Z that the USN has.
The USN is not developing SH, on the contrary it will be capping orders after 2010-11 . Boeing has said that they'll need an international customer to invest in SH's next avatar. It's something like what UAE did with F-16 Block 60.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by p_saggu »

Hey Jamal, take it easy man.
C'mon lets argue this out. He has certain assertions, we have to test if those are really true. If they are true, then all the best and godspeed to the SH, if they are not then lets tear them down. :)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Jamal K. Malik »

p_saggu wrote:Hey Jamal, take it easy man.
C'mon lets argue this out. He has certain assertions, we have to test if those are really true. If they are true, then all the best and godspeed to the SH, if they are not then lets tear them down. :)
Sir
Thanks I am agree with you
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