Indian Naval Discussion

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Jun 2009 14:55

Some forward movement on Project 17A Frigate programme. DAC has cleared 7 Frigates

.

Does this programme require further approvals say from the Ministry of Finance and/or Cabinet Committee on Security before orders can actually be placed on GRSE and MDIL

The 45,000 Cr price tag quoted looks suspect. As given seems too high while dropping a zero would make it too low. Anyone, Any comment

:

Navy seals 45,000-cr deal: seven warships

Posted: Saturday , Jun 20, 2009 at 0440 hrs IST
Manu Pubby

New Delhi:

India has cleared its largest ever indigenous defence contract worth Rs 45,000 crore to manufacture seven advanced stealth frigates for the Navy at shipyards in Kolkata and Mumbai.

The P17A warship project, which will be India’s most advanced and stealthy frigates, has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) on Friday. …………............

Indian Express

John · Post by **John** » 20 Jun 2009 17:15

arun wrote:Some forward movement on Project 17A Frigate programme. DAC has cleared 7 Frigates .

Does this programme require further approvals say from the Ministry of Finance and/or Cabinet Committee on Security before orders can actually be placed on GRSE and MDIL

The 45,000 Cr price tag quoted looks suspect. As given seems too high while dropping a zero would make it too low. Anyone, Any comment :

Navy seals 45,000-cr deal: seven warships

Posted: Saturday , Jun 20, 2009 at 0440 hrs IST
Manu Pubby

New Delhi:

India has cleared its largest ever indigenous defence contract worth Rs 45,000 crore to manufacture seven advanced stealth frigates for the Navy at shipyards in Kolkata and Mumbai.

The P17A warship project, which will be India’s most advanced and stealthy frigates, has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) on Friday. …………............

Indian Express

Seems about right, last i heard Shivalik price tag had far surpassed 2600+ crores. Loaded with western armaments and new design will easily tip the scale to $ billion per vessel.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 20 Jun 2009 18:30

From the above report,

With the Defence Ministry taking the final call on the matter, the frigates will be manufactured in India and are expected to be inducted by 2021. The project is expected to start by 2011 when both GRSE and MDL complete an upgrade that will allow them to undertake modular construction. The first ship is expected to be delivered 3-4 years after work starts.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 20 Jun 2009 20:51

Hi,
Saw P-17 Shivalik today at Mumbai port standing next to Delhi class ship. I guess she had returned from sea.
I have pictures too, Is it ok to post them? Mods kindly advise.
If yes give me 2 days time they are in my friends cam.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 20 Jun 2009 21:02

Also saw Kilo class, Leander class and missile boats

In all had good day spoting

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 20 Jun 2009 21:12

KBDagha wrote:Hi,
Saw P-17 Shivalik today at Mumbai port standing next to Delhi class ship. I guess she had returned from sea.
I have pictures too, Is it ok to post them? Mods kindly advise.
If yes give me 2 days time they are in my friends cam.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.

what are you waiting for? 2 days? No way.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 20 Jun 2009 21:16

Will try to do it by tomorrow EOD!

Regards,
Khambat DAgha.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 20 Jun 2009 21:35

some forward movement on Project 17A Frigate programme. DAC has cleared 7 Frigates .

Does this programme require further approvals say from the Ministry of Finance and/or Cabinet Committee on Security before orders can actually be placed on GRSE and MDIL

The 45,000 Cr price tag quoted looks suspect. As given seems too high while dropping a zero would make it too low. Anyone, Any comment :

Quote:
Navy seals 45,000-cr deal: seven warships
Posted: Saturday , Jun 20, 2009 at 0440 hrs IST
Manu Pubby
New Delhi:
India has cleared its largest ever indigenous defence contract worth Rs 45,000 crore to manufacture seven advanced stealth frigates for the Navy at shipyards in Kolkata and Mumbai.

The P17A warship project, which will be India’s most advanced and stealthy frigates, has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) on Friday. …………............
Indian Express

What would the armament's be for these new stealth frigates? MF-STAR (AGEIS) radar, Brahmos? The price tag seems excessive for stealth frigates, if its close to a Billion dollars each then they better be armed to the teeth!! Also what will the long range missile be the Grumble? Hopefully they would choose something better, with longer range!

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 20 Jun 2009 22:08

It is time to build some heavy destroyers .

Ankit

John · Post by **John** » 20 Jun 2009 22:24

b_patel wrote: What would the armament's be for these new stealth frigates? MF-STAR (AGEIS) radar, Brahmos? The price tag seems excessive for stealth frigates, if its close to a Billion dollars each then they better be armed to the teeth!! Also what will the long range missile be the Grumble? Hopefully they would choose something better, with longer range!

Keep in mind the cost does include upgrades to the Shipyard for modular construction. As for armament they are not likely to be armed to the teeth my guess would be 32 Barak-8, Barak+Ak-630 combo, MF-STAR,8 brahmos and Oto SR. Increased automation leading to reduction in crew size to ~120 and 2 helos.

Skratu · Post by **Skratu** » 21 Jun 2009 18:59

Couldn't leave it on for too long for copyright reasons.

Skratu · Post by **Skratu** » 21 Jun 2009 19:00

Couldn't leave it on for too long for copyright reasons

Skratu · Post by **Skratu** » 21 Jun 2009 19:02

Same-you guys may have to download/buy it I'm afraid.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 21 Jun 2009 20:23

wrt the P17A
I hope they have space for like 24 VLS Nirbhays (LACM mainly).
In armaments atleast it should deploy as much as the US AEGIS destroyers do.

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 21 Jun 2009 23:30

SKRatu ... very interesting article ... I wasn't aware of GoI's countermoves against China (especially w.r.t Vietnam & Mongolia) ... thank you for posting this.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jun 2009 23:44

This and the earlier "Delhi’s Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, “Look East,” and India’s Emerging Influence in the Asia-Pacific", are a must read IMHO.

Just nearing the finish of the "Delhi's .....", it is rather telling that the seeds sown then are bearing fruits --- slooooooowly.

The ADB issue and its resolution seems to be a part of this Indian push.

Now, ooonly if MoD/GoI/Babus can get their act together and float those 160 ships.

gashish · Post by **gashish** » 21 Jun 2009 23:59

SKratu..Thanks for the article.

Myanmarese wariness of China's rising influence in the region has prompted a new tilt towards India. While in New Delhi in 2007 I was informed that the port of Sittwe, which India had feared for several years would become a Chinese naval facility was “now under Indian control”85 and that the Indian Government was finalizing agreements to convert the Myanmarese port of Dawei into an Indian deep-sea port. An Indian analyst informed me that one of the main reasons behind Myanmar's recent reversal is its mounting concern over the massive migrations of Chinese from China's southern provinces to Myanmar. Indeed, some reports claim that over 30 percent of the population of the central city of Mandalay is now composed of illegal Chinese immigrants.

very very heartening to read!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Jun 2009 03:01

Very interesting read indeed. As I speculated two years back the Ayni base may be an ELINT setup , especially in view of the revealtion that there are such posts in Mongolia. I am not surprised at all with the forward policy in Sitwe, Cam Ran Bay and central Asia outined in this paper.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 22 Jun 2009 03:07

This article on India-China deserves a place in strat forum as well.Skratu, if you can post the original link, i would like to save it as pdf.

Skratu · Post by **Skratu** » 22 Jun 2009 03:23

Glad people think it is an interesting read-here is the original link, you will have to buy it though

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... ?bios=true

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 05:12

spending 45000 crore rupees or 9 billion US for 7 frigates or 1.3 billion US per frigate and this is outrageous and people calling gorshkov costly

then how much p15b will cost along with next line of submarine??????

and India can't even produce shafts and propellers for ships just look at p15a.

Skratu · Post by **Skratu** » 22 Jun 2009 05:22

The author of the article also has a blog which seems quite informative, there are a few interviews etc:

http://indiangeopolitics.blogspot.com/

He hasn't updated it in some time though.

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 22 Jun 2009 05:26

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:spending 45000 crore rupees or 9 billion US for 7 frigates or 1.3 billion US per frigate and this is outrageous and people calling gorshkov costly

then how much p15b will cost along with next line of submarine??????

and India can't even produce shafts and propellers for ships just look at p15a.

seriously iam surprised you are not warned by the mods yet. Since you are such an expert of russian hardware, you know how old gorshi is right ?

whereas p-17a is going to have latest technology and is going to be build using latest technology.

What you are saying is that one who can afford a ferrari for $100 K shouldnt balk at the thought of paying $100k for a 1980's model of Lada.

that being said......dont get me wrong iam confident that once all the repairs and modifications are done on gorshkov it will be an enormous asset to our navy but please lets not get carried away and start comparing APPLES to ORANGES.

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 05:50

Srivastav wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:spending 45000 crore rupees or 9 billion US for 7 frigates or 1.3 billion US per frigate and this is outrageous and people calling gorshkov costly

then how much p15b will cost along with next line of submarine??????

and India can't even produce shafts and propellers for ships just look at p15a.

seriously iam surprised you are not warned by the mods yet. Since you are such an expert of russian hardware, you know how old gorshi is right ?

whereas p-17a is going to have latest technology and is going to be build using latest technology.

What you are saying is that one who can afford a ferrari for $100 K shouldnt balk at the thought of paying $100k for a 1980's model of Lada.

that being said......dont get me wrong iam confident that once all the repairs and modifications are done on gorshkov it will be an enormous asset to our navy but please lets not get carried away and start comparing APPLES to ORANGES.

ok but 1.3 billion is too much for a frigate and and radars and missiles (MFSTAR,barak-8) would be supplied by Indian companies built with TOT

the design which DCN has offered is nothing but their concept FM400 is a multi-mission vessel
to be built with modular shipbuilding tech but also how much stealth going to be incorporated on second batch of talwar class frigates although more reports yet to be come over this

http://www.dcnsgroup.com/files/pdf/FM%20400.pdf

there can be many changes in design,but the thing is that its costly just because of being french, like 40 million upgrade of per mirage2000 compared to 16 million upgrade of per mig29

and also india did not find or didn't want to find any other except DCN to design new batch of frigates so that the cost of new frigates do not increase 700-750 million per ship .

only three shivaliks are being built but there could be more of same design this could save time ,but our navy changes design of ships after every 3 ships and every time there are different sensors means more delay to freeze design so more delay in delivery

now it will take 2-3 to freeze design of P17A along with sensors before the construction starts.

and also how long it will take to freeze the design of p15b ?????

John · Post by **John** » 22 Jun 2009 06:01

^ It includes cost to upgrade SYs for modular construction. Besides even if you take that out and total cost of modern vessel can easily hit the 1 billion figure as i mentioned before P-17 cost is around 600 million.

and also india did notfind or didn't want to find any other except DCN to design new batch of frigates.

They won the competition it beat out couple designs from Fincantieri and Russia. Not a surprise considering Delta class is one of best frigates out there (price tag around 700).

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 06:06

John wrote:^ It includes cost to upgrade SYs for modular construction. Besides even if you take that out and total cost of modern vessel can easily hit the 1 billion figure as i mentioned before P-17 cost is around 600 million.

and also india did notfind or didn't want to find any other except DCN to design new batch of frigates.
They won the competition it beat out couple designs from Fincantieri and Russia. Currently the only design out there for 4500-5000 ton frigate is from DCNS and Fincantieri so it is no suprise.

but navy going to buy 3 more krivak frigates from russia and those frigates will be comparable to DCN design offer.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Jun 2009 06:12

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote: but navy going to buy 3 more krivak frigates from russia and those frigates will be comparable to DCN design offer.

No Talwar is based on 25 year old Krivak design and has some obvious limitations and does not offer much growth. Not something you want to base the P-17As on. The first batch was procured by IN to fill in for the retiring Leanders. 2nd was procured because of delays with P-17 which was scaled down from 6 to 3 as a result.

The design that was offered by Russia for P-17A was based on new Pr 22350 FFG that they are currently building.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 22 Jun 2009 06:15

John, don't waste your time.

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 06:18

John wrote:
Andrew DeCristofaro wrote: but navy going to buy 3 more krivak frigates from russia and those frigates will be comparable to DCN design offer.
No Talwar is based on 25 year old Krivak design. The first batch was procured by IN to fill in for the retiring Leanders. 2nd was procured because of delays with P-17 which was scaled down from 6 to 3 as a result.

The design that was offered by Russia for P-17A was based on new Pr 22350 FFG that they are currently building.

Pr 22350 FFG going to be the same for 3rd batch of talwar class which india going to order

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 06:32

sunilUpa wrote:John, don't waste your time.

telling others not to waste time but you better save your own time and there is nothing wrong in discussion with john

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 22 Jun 2009 06:41

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:John, don't waste your time.
telling others not to waste time but you better save your own time and there is nothing wrong in discussion with john

ARE YOU JOHN?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 22 Jun 2009 07:34

sunilUpa wrote: ARE YOU JOHN?

Sunil bhai..you are gonna give yarself an annurism...now the question I want to ask is why do you want to give yourself an annurism...hein...dont worry have curry...the breapers are on the prowl...grid search pattern confirmed....laser charged...gbu-12 locked...awaiting possitive id confirmation for weapon release....

AoA

kit · Post by **kit** » 22 Jun 2009 07:57

Andrew DeCristofaro wrote:spending 45000 crore rupees or 9 billion US for 7 frigates or 1.3 billion US per frigate and this is outrageous and people calling gorshkov costly

then how much p15b will cost along with next line of submarine??????

and India can't even produce shafts and propellers for ships just look at p15a.

I think a part of the 9 billion is spent on modernising the shipyards to undertake modular construction and newer ship building technologies to incorporate the Indian stealth features.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 22 Jun 2009 08:59

andy B wrote:
sunilUpa wrote: ARE YOU JOHN?
Sunil bhai..you are gonna give yarself an annurism...now the question I want to ask is why do you want to give yourself an annurism...hein...dont worry have curry...the breapers are on the prowl...grid search pattern confirmed....laser charged...gbu-12 locked...awaiting possitive id confirmation for weapon release.... AoA

Err GBU-12 you say? Can't you find anything Russian?

TY for the tip, I am out of here, in case one of those GBU-12's land near my musharaff!!

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 22 Jun 2009 10:36

^^^ Oh yes the first preference was for the Kab 500 however there were price escalation from the russians

and the contract got the can....and so we now have to use kuffr gbu 12 onlee

Anyway better get out of here before another Breaper comes sniffing around for my mushraff....to infinity and beyond.....

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 22 Jun 2009 11:42

Not to divert the discussion here but I have an experience to share and you'll see the linkage to the Indian Navy shortly. I went to an air show this past Saturday and got to see the Harrier in action. I was about 100 feet away from the plane (in the xy direction) and about 300 feet in height away (z direction) from said aircraft. Do you folks realize how loud this sucker is? I mean the thing is beyond deafening. If you haven't experienced this ever, I suggest you do. It is beyond breathtaking. I state this because I admire (not that I hadn't before) the Indian Navy and their aviators even more. To the deck bosses who bring these birds in, that too on no gas (Indian navy aviators jettison remaining fuel to land), kudos to you. And to the naval aviators, bigger kudos. I have high res photos and video etc but since it isn't a pakka Indian harrier I'll refrain. Still, folks, if there is a Indian harrier at an air show go see it before they are replaced. Take your ear plugs. By the way, I saw the super hornet in action too. But that is for another day. I now return you to the regular programming.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 22 Jun 2009 12:47

OT

Anant ji,
You might want to hear the good old IL 76 ,at the distance you have mentioned, to know what 'deafening' is really.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 22 Jun 2009 13:03

Dear Prasanth,

I'd love to, next time I'm in India. Not much hearing left to loose after Saturday so let it rip. The tragedy in the US is that it is tough to see Russian aircraft except at certain specialized airshows. I hope to go to Oshkosh and see if they have any Russian stuff there. Some day I'll scope out the IL-76. I'll youtube the Harrier video for those interested just to show how loud she is. Prasanth, I envy your IL-76 experience but I better stop here since this is the Navy thread. By the way, before I finish I did get a chance to sit in a Mig-21. The entire plane is tiny and the cockpit is cramped even for a tiny person like me. Anyways, on to the Indian Navy. I have an official ATV launch date countdown going and a party the day it launches. Not too far away

Cheers.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jun 2009 13:10

Anant wrote:.
(Indian navy aviators jettison remaining fuel to land)

The Harrier engine is loud, no doubt.

At hover its generally putting out its full thrust with nozzles facing downwards. Hence the extra noise.

Fuel is normally jettisoned depending on ambient temperature, to bring the aircraft down to its calculated landing weight. This weight being critical for for the vertical landing.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 22 Jun 2009 13:27

May be a trivial question:
How come the VTOL is still in development when it is so inefficient. The naval JSF has it. I thought catapaults are the future since they allow higher MTOW for naval birds.