Indian Education System

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 May 2009 05:42

http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 4122885001

One of the volunteering program

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 30 May 2009 07:56

Stan_Savljevic wrote:India's New Higher-Education Minister Welcomes Foreign Universities
http://chronicle.com/news/index.php?id= ... _medium=en

A few years down the line one may actually thank Arjun Singh for having set up the 7-8-9 new IITs. What are the chances that a massa university would wanna come here and setup a liberal arts/medical/pure sciences campus. Also campuses that offer post graduate education. Close to zilch. Most massa universities will probably want to setup up Engineering campuses in India, especially undergrad engineering as that is a lucrative market. Witness the MIT schools in Singapore etc. With a large number of IIT's already present there may not be a market for engineering colleges with IIT kind of standards. Of course places like MIT/CMU may still come here and they should also come here. With a large number of IITs the Govt can regulate fees in the market by being the 800lb gorilla.

Things to measure Kapil Sibal on
(i) fees at institutions like IITs/IIMs/IISc
-whether fees are increased, Paki like, to bring about a "level playing field" for foreign universities
(ii) level of govt funding to these institutions
-whether funding is decreased/remains constant(adjusted for inflation)/increased to bring about a "level playing field" for foreign universities
(iii) whether govt sets up new IITs/IIMs in the future
(iv) reservation at new private institutions
-this is one hot potato. Govt will have to consider quotas for SC/ST students, if not for OBCs given that it is mortally afraid of Mayawati.
(v) land allotment for private institutions
-whether govt acquires land for private institutions. If it does it will be difficult to fend of calls to allow some sort of reservation
(vi) poaching of existing faculty from IITs/IIMs
-whether govt allows the asset stripping of the IITs/IIMs to favour the private players. There is only a finite pool of professors for institutions of IIT standards.

amol.p · Post by **amol.p** » 30 May 2009 12:55

SwamyG wrote:^^^^
Say hello to high tuition fees. We need competition for the rates schools charge for LKG. I heard sometimes it between Rs50,000 per year in some schools.

Coming generations will need to take study loans for kids from pre-school only. current prevaling fees in pune
School:
1] Pre-school(indian) = 50000/- per year
2] Pre-school(international) = 50k to 75k per year
3] KG to 5th std (convent) = 39k to 70k per year
4] KG to 5th std (international) = 75K to 100K per year
5] Higher secondary school (convent) = 50k to 75k per year
6] Higher secondary school (International) = 75k to 150k per year

Graduation:
1] Engineering = 80k per year ( merit seat)
2] Medical(MBBS) = 350k per year (merit seat)
3] Engineering = 500k-800k full course ( donation seat)
4] Medical(MBBS) = 1800k to 2500k full corse (donation seat)

Post graduation:
1] MBA = 100k per year ( govt aided merit seat)
2] MBA = 300k to 500k per year ( unaided pvt B-school merit seat)
3] MBA = 5lacs to 10 lacs ( unaided pvt B-school donations seat)
4] MS & MD = 25lacs to 40 lacs (pvt colleges)

Symbyosis Bcom fees is 50K per year..!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only low cost schools & colleges are those who offer course in regional languages.

The best option left is merit seat in a government college which are high in standards and low in fees.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Jun 2009 00:23

Engineers, brushed up in lab

New Delhi, May 31: The Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, unhappy at conventional engineering education in India, will venture into formal education this year with a postgraduate engineering programme.

Eight CSIR laboratories will introduce an education and research programme for engineering graduates who will be paid while they pursue the course and receive a postgraduate diploma at the end of two years.

The initiative aims to create a new cadre of postgraduate engineers who have learnt from working scientists and live projects, said officials at the CSIR, a government-funded network of 38 laboratories.

About 280 engineers with PhDs now do research in various CSIR laboratories. Some 20 to 25 of them retire each year without replacements coming in.

The shortage of engineering PhD-holders is a nation-wide affliction. India’s universities and engineering institutes, including the IITs, produce only about 1,000 PhDs in engineering each year. Technology analysts estimate the country needs at least 6 to 10 times that number to support its myriad technology development programmes and serve as faculty in private engineering colleges.

Some academics have criticised the initiative. “Nowhere in the world has science progressed without universities,” said Kasturi Lal Chopra, former IIT Kharagpur director.

“Most of the work in such laboratories is highly focused. Will the engineers receive a broad enough education that will make them acceptable to other institutions?”

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 03 Jun 2009 03:19

Since Ramanaji asked about phd awhile back, here is an email I received.

Folks: The posting below gives some excellent - and at the same time humorous - advice on completing your PhD. It is Chapter 2 - The PhD, in the book What They Didn't Teach You in Graduate School: 199 Helpful Hints for Success in Your Academic Career by Paul Gray and David E. Drew. who are professors at Claremont Graduate University in California, one in information systems and the other in education. Between them they were students in 6 graduate programs, taught full time at 7 universities, and mentored over 50 PhDs, many of whom are now tenured professors. Copyright 2008 by Stylus Publishing, LLC. Cartoons copyright 2008 by Matthew Henry Hall. Published by Stylus Publishing , LLC, 22883 Quicksilver Drive Sterling, Virginia 20166-2102.

Regards,
Rick Reis

The PhD

It can be argued that you do job hunting (the subject of chapter 3) before you receive the PhD. However, the PhD is the prize you seek above all from your graduate experience. We therefore discuss it first.

(editors note: the numbering does indeed start at #7).

7. Finish your PhD as early as possible. Don't feel that you need to create the greatest work that Western civilization ever saw. Five years from now the only thing that will matter is whether you finished. If you don't finish, you are likely to join the ranks of "freeway flyers," holding multiple part-time teaching jobs.

8. Be humble about your PhD. You don't need to flaunt the degree. Everyone has one. Many of your colleagues, both in your institution and outside it, will be put off if you sign everything "Doctor" or "Jane Jones, PhD" In fact, the main use for Doctor is making reservations at a restaurant. When you call and ask for a table for four for Doctor Jones, you will get more respect and often better seating.

9. Remember that a PhD is primarily an indication of survivorship. Although the public at large may view your doctorate as a superb intellectual achievement and a reflection of brilliance, you probably know deep in your heart that it is not. It represents a lot of hard work on your part over a long period of time. You probably received help from one or more faculty to get over rough spots. Your family, be it parents or spouse, stayed with you over the vicissitudes of creating the dissertation. You stuck with it until it was done, unlike the ABDs (All But Dissertation), people who complete all the other requirements but bail out before they finish their dissertations.

10. A PhD is a certification of research ability based on a sample of 1. The PhD certifies that you are able to do quality research. Unlike the MD, which requires extensive work with patients followed by years of internship and residency, the PhD is based on a single sample, your dissertation. The people who sign your dissertation are making a large bet on your ability to do quality research again and again in the future.

11. A PhD is a license to reproduce and an obligation to maintain the quality of your intellectual descendants. Once you are a PhD, it is possible for you (assuming you are working in an academic department that offers a PhD program) to create new PhDs. Even if your department does not offer a PhD, you can be called upon to sit on PhD examining committees either in your own or in neighboring institutions. This is a serious responsibility because you are creating your intellectual descendants. Recognize that if you vote to pass someone who is marginal or worse, that PhD in turn is given the same privilege. If candidates are not up to standard, it is likely that some of their descendants will also not be. Unlike humans whose intergeneration time is 20 years, academic intergeneration times are 5 years or less. Furthermore, a single individual may supervise 50 or more PhDs over a 30-year career.

12. You must have the PhD in hand before you can move up the academic ladder. The world is full of ABDs. We talked about them briefly in Hint 9 and will again in Hint 161. ABDs may be much abler and more brilliant than you but they didn't possess the stamina (or the circumstances) to finish the degree. In our judgment, being an ABD is the end of the academic line.

13. Be aware that the key danger point in any doctoral program is the one where you leave highly structured coursework (Phase 1) and enter the unstructured world of the qualification examination and the dissertation (Phase 2). Here are two strategies to help you navigate Phase 2:

1. Stay in touch with your professors, especially your adviser. One of us insists that students come in for a meeting each week, even if nothing happened. Just the fear of not being able to report anything stimulates the mind.
2. Meet regularly, ideally every week, for lunch or dinner or afternoon coffee, with two or three fellow graduate students who are also struggling with Phase 2. Compare notes and progress.

14. A special note for the part-time student working on the dissertation. Although all PhD students used to be on campus and often worked as teaching or research assistant part-time, in many fields today that attract midcareer students (for example, education) the norm is to work at an off-campus job full-time and on the PhD part-time. Others, such as computer science students, develop an idea for a start-up company (e.g., one of the founders of Google) and drift from full-time to part-time. We applaud part-time PhD students. This hint is addressed to these students.

If you are working on your PhD part time, you will find it difficult enough in Phase 1 to tell your boss that you can't attend that nighttime budget crisis meeting or tell your spouse that you can't go to your child's soccer game because you must be in class. It is even more difficult when you're in Phase 2 to tell him or her that you won't be there because you must be home, in your study, staring at a black computer screen trying to get past writer's block.

As a part-time student, you need to find ways (in addition to suggestions 1 and 2 in Hint 13) to be physically present on campus. You can do so in many ways, such as spending time writing in a library carrel (1). Physical presence is important psychologically. If you never visit campus and become caught up in your work and family activities, you face the danger that your uncompleted PhD program can begin to seem like something you used to do in a faraway time and place.

15. Avoid Watson's Syndrome. Named by R.J. Gelles, this syndrome is a euphemism for procrastination (2). It involves doing everything possible to avoid completing work. It differs from writer's block in that the sufferer substitutes real work that distracts from doing what is necessary for completing the dissertation or for advancing toward an academic career. The work may be outside or inside the university. Examples given by Gelles include:
* remodeling a house
* a never-ending literature review (after all, new papers are being published all the time and they must be referenced)
* data paralysis-making seemingly infinite Statistical Analysis System (SAS) and Statistical Package for Social Sciences (SPSS) runs
* perfectionism that doesn't let you submit until you think it is perfect (and it never is perfect)

If you suffer from Watson's Syndrome, finding a mentor (see Hint 5) who pushes you to finish will help you get done. For many, however, particularly those who always waited until the night before an examination to begin studying, the syndrome is professionally fatal.

16. Celebrate your PhD! When you hand in your signed dissertation and pay the last fee that the university exacts from you, go out and Celebrate! Celebrate! Celebrate! You've achieved something marvelous, and you are one of a very small number in the population who can say you are a PhD. A rough calculation shows that about 3 of 400 adults in the United States hold a PhD. Attaining a PhD is a big deal! Honor that.

A PhD, like life, is a journey. It marks the end of one stage and the beginning of what lies ahead. Don't fail to appreciate the moment of your accomplishment. Yes, other big moments await you. But like almost every PhD, you never had a moment this big, and it will be a long time before you have another one that matches it.

Notes
1. The library is a large building filled with books and journals. It functions sort of like Google, but deeper.
2. This hint is based on R.J. Gelles, "Watson's Syndrome," Inside Higher Education, June 19, 2006, http://www.insidehighered.com/workplace ... /19/gelles

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 04 Jun 2009 04:43

As Racial Attacks on Indian Students Rise in Australia, U.S. Bills Itself as Safe Alternative

New Delhi — With attacks on Indian students in Australia increasing in number and brutality, other higher-education destinations, including the United States, Canada, Britain, and New Zealand, are stepping up efforts in India to promote themselves as safe alternatives, the Mail Today reported. “We will project the U.S. as a safe destination for students and highlight the liberal financial aid that is available for meritorious students in U.S. universities,” said Sunrit Mullick, regional officer of the United States India Educational Foundation.

Australia has been fast emerging as a favored higher-education destination for Indian students and has edged closer to the United States in sheer numbers. An estimated 95,000 Indian students enrolled at Australian universities in the first 11 months of 2008, about the same as the 94,563 Indian students who attended American universities in 2008. Now, following the brutal attacks, interest in going to Australia has begun to wane, and Indian students are looking at other countries, The Times of India reported.

New Zealand, which came late to the Indian market, has been aggressively promoting its universities and is expected to be the biggest beneficiary of the fear created by the attacks. The country has already seen a 75-percent increase in the number of Indian students since last year. Britain and Canada are also drawing more interest from Indian students.

http://chronicle.com/news/index.php?id= ... _medium=en

amol.p · Post by **amol.p** » 05 Jun 2009 09:40

Medical scam just got bigger: PG seats for Rs 2 cr

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Med ... 619350.cms

CHENNAI: The TOI report on MBBS seats sold for between Rs 12 lakh and Rs 40 lakh by two private colleges in Chennai barely exposes the tip of the iceberg. {matches the figures i had given in earlier post}

The scam gets bigger, more brazen as medical graduates embark on specializations that are necessary for a successful career. The price this year for a post-graduate seat in radiology in most leading private colleges across the country is Rs 2 crore while in cardiology, gynaecology and orthopaedics are priced around Rs 1.5 crore.

The main reason for such high rates is the dearth of seats for PG programmes. The average ratio of undergraduate (MBBS) seats to those for post-graduate is 100:29. In effect, nearly 32,000 doctors graduate from medical schools across the country every year, and the number of PG seats available to them is roughly one-third of the requirement.

Across India, there are 9,085 seats for clinical courses like cardiology, radiology, orthopaedics and gynaecology; a mere 662 seats for pre-clinical courses such as anatomy and physiology, and 1,303 seats in para-clinical programmes like pathology, micro-biology and forensic medicine. Of these, a large percentage are in private institutions which enjoy the freedom to charge hefty donations, which means, a bright MBBS graduate with no means to pay has few options.

``In India, only 80 doctors can become cardiologists in a year, while in the US, there are 800 positions to train cardiologists. As for kidney specialists, the US has more nephrologists of Indian origin than India has. India has only 60 seats for nephrology,'' said a Bangalore-based surgeon, who has been fighting for transparent admission procedures in admissions to graduate and post-graduate seats.

``Overall, less than 10% of the graduating medical batch gets PG seats through the general (government) pool,'' said the surgeon. Most PG seats, in simple terms, are auctioned or sold to the highest bidder. It's a system of exploitation that finds its eventual victim in the patient.

A senior doctor says, ``I agree the authorities can't increase seats easily because they don't have that many faculty members. But we need to make necessary amendments to the existing law to meet our growing demand. In the US, even an 80-year-old surgeon is legally authorized to do a brain surgery but here we ask a 60-year-old to retire from teaching,'' he said.

Another senior expert, who has held prestigious posts at the national level, says he has urged the UGC to hold centralized examinations like JEE for admissions to both MBBS and PG courses. ``It's a national shame to commercialize education. Besides, death of merit affects the quality of medical education. When money is paid, these colleges ensure that the exit is definite. The students pass, qualified or not,'' he said

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 05 Jun 2009 11:19

^^^^
exactly why does a radiology seat sell for 2 crores and a cardiology one for 1.5 crores. I thought radiologists only interpreted X-ray/CT-Scan/MRI/NMR reports for a living, possibly in a hospital. How is it more expensive than a cardiology seat?

amol.p · Post by **amol.p** » 05 Jun 2009 14:52

sugriva wrote:^^^^
exactly why does a radiology seat sell for 2 crores and a cardiology one for 1.5 crores. I thought radiologists only interpreted X-ray/CT-Scan/MRI/NMR reports for a living, possibly in a hospital. How is it more expensive than a cardiology seat?

Education & colleges in next big bubble in India after reality.......though number of seats go empty the fees remain the same. How many people in india can aford so much high prices....though some people may pay....their only aim in life will be to get back the money which they have invetsed by hook or crook....this is going to have serious repercussions in future on quality of MBA's , doctors.........MH govt this month has paased 2046 new courses in pvt colleges........education is big time business.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 07 Jun 2009 04:11

A lesson for many states, Primary education to get a boost

SALEM: Children of a lesser god in Tamil Nadu no longer need to worry over roofless class rooms and primary schools without teachers.

Pursuing the ambitious objective of 100 per cent in the net enrolment rate in primary classes, which, at present, stands at 99.39 per cent and in upper primary at 98.62 per cent, the State has undertaken a massive education-friendly initiative of renovation and restoration of all its primary and middle schools. The dropout ratio at present is 1.40 per cent (1.91 per cent in 2006-2007) in primary schools while in upper primary schools it is 2.04 per cent as against 4.08 per cent.

The 2001 census has put the ‘out of school’ children in the State at 5.74 lakh, which has now been reduced to 86,414 following a series of child-friendly programmes such as bridge courses and residential camps.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/07/stories ... 680100.htm

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 09 Jun 2009 08:12

Cash-for-Grades Program Makes Kids Score 40% Higher

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06082009/ne ... 173099.htm

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 10 Jun 2009 18:45

Finance panel clears seven IIMs, 10 NITs.

The process of setting up of seven IIMs, 374 degree colleges and 10 NITs has been set in motion with the Expenditure Finance Committee (EFC) approving the proposals in this regard.

The proposals approved by the EFC yesterday will now be sent to the Cabinet for approval, sources in HRD Ministry said.

The government has decided to set up seven IIMs in the states of Tamil Nadu, Jammu and Kashmir, Jharkhand, Chhattishgarh, Uttarakhand, Rajasthan and Haryana.

The existing IIMs have already agreed to provide "all types of support" for setting up of new elite B-Schools in the country.

Similarly, the government would set up 374 degree colleges in educationally backward districts in the country. About 90 colleges would be set up in minority concentrated districts. Each college will cost Rs eight crore for establishment.

The UGC has already invited proposals from different states for setting up of the colleges. As per the proposal, the Centre will provide one time grant of Rs 2.7 crore for the establishment of a college. The state government will bear the rest of the cost.

Similarly, the government would set up 10 NITs for the expansion of technical education.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 11 Jun 2009 16:27

List of documents required to get a college admission

http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... l-need.htm

This is an excellent indicator of how sc*ewed up our system really is. I went through all of this, gathering these document process and every step of the way had a babu whose sole purpose in life was to raise some silly objection or the other...

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Jun 2009 01:29

^ Marksheets,photograph,passing certificate and birth certificate are genuine requirements however it is the Domicile and the residential certificate which are real PITA it takes at least a month or so to procure these and the whole process is more tedious than getting a passport.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 12 Jun 2009 13:48

Tanaji wrote:List of documents required to get a college admission

http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... l-need.htm

This is an excellent indicator of how sc*ewed up our system really is. I went through all of this, gathering these document process and every step of the way had a babu whose sole purpose in life was to raise some silly objection or the other...

Yes. And National ID system can reduce this mess. So when you logout from BR and go back to real world, pls do whatever is necessary to bring National ID system.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 12 Jun 2009 14:56

Again, you are solving the wrong problem. A national ID card as is being currently implemented by most countries simply validates the person's identity. No more, no less. Studies have shown the moment you start adding fancy functionality to it, cost becomes exponential. Additionally, to keep costs down and for security you would want to keep this card as unchangeable as possible for the longest term. Adding domicile functionality goes against this.

The second more serious thing is babus of different departments come up with their own lists of what a required document is. Some departments will accept a election card or passport as proof of identity and residence, some will demand a ration card and wont recognise anything else. Having a national card fails to address this issue.

Of course I fully expect you to dismiss the above as "trivial" and "achievable in Rs 2 only by giving it to the talati". Sometimes I wonder why you bother joining a forum: your mind is already made up and no amount of arguments change your mind. You do not even acknowledge valid points, dismissing them as ramblings of "elitemen" and NBJPRIEABCDEFGHIJK....

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 13 Jun 2009 01:29

New Minister in India Says Fly-by-Night Foreign Universities Won't Be Tolerated
http://chronicle.com/news/index.php?id= ... _medium=en

While India already has joint working groups on education with at least 30 countries, setting one up with the United States was never seriously contemplated by the previous minister, Arjun Singh, because of his close ties with leftist political parties that oppose increased contact with the United States and oppose allowing foreign universities to set up campuses in India.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 13 Jun 2009 13:05

Tanaji wrote:A national ID card as is being currently implemented by most countries simply validates the person's identity. No more, no less. Studies have shown the moment you start adding fancy functionality to it, cost becomes exponential. ...

Once NID comes, every dept can be asked to put all its certificate on web indexed by NID of course with permission of the owner of the certificate. eg1 I can ask my school to put up by school leaving certificate on web. eg2 I can ask my school board to put my mark sheet on web. So when I apply, I only need to give my ID and certificate numbers, and may be mere ordinary xerox of the certificates (not the notarized xeroxes). The officer can verify the certificates by going to the website of issuing authority and typing NID or certificate number or both. Later, the schools can download the entire data and further automate the processing. The basic rule is - unless data is indexed, it is very cumbersome to use and impossible to automate. And once universal indexing occurs, automation can happen and duplication reduces.

So I am not asking NID to have all the data. But my proposal only says that every dept would index its data using NID. That is a time saver.

---

The second more serious thing is babus of different departments come up with their own lists of what a required document is. Some departments will accept a election card or passport as proof of identity and residence, some will demand a ration card and wont recognise anything else. Having a national card fails to address this issue.

Once NID comes, every babu can be forced to use NID only and nothing else and/or threatened with expulsion. So NID very addresses this issue - many IDs get replaced by one.

achievable in Rs 2 only by giving it to the talati. ..

Its Rs 3. But I am glad you have memorized the "The Solution" .

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 16 Jun 2009 18:11

One thing I noticed in Karnataka, in the udupi , DK and some other districts govt schools are considered to be good. People admit their kids in large nos to these schools. Also these schools do give good results. But the same is not true for Bangalore district where heavy fees are charged. In Bangalore it has become a matter of prestige for admitting students to schools with high fees. That too if school name starts with St. then more people rush towards it.
Also I thank god that I was not born in early this century because most schools (especially private internaational schools) just stress out their students. One of my niece has tests almost everyweek and stress showed on her. She became weak and and dark circles below her eyes and it was just the beginning of academic year (somewhere in July).
This was sometime around last year and she was just 11 years old !!!!!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 16 Jun 2009 20:06

sugriva wrote:^^^^
exactly why does a radiology seat sell for 2 crores and a cardiology one for 1.5 crores. I thought radiologists only interpreted X-ray/CT-Scan/MRI/NMR reports for a living, possibly in a hospital. How is it more expensive than a cardiology seat?

Pure demand/supply. A radiologist is required for almost every procedure these days. While a cardiologist will be required to deal with hearts and a neurologist with brains, a radiologist will be required in both types of imaging.

amol.p · Post by **amol.p** » 18 Jun 2009 12:36

vera_k wrote:
sugriva wrote:^^^^
exactly why does a radiology seat sell for 2 crores and a cardiology one for 1.5 crores. I thought radiologists only interpreted X-ray/CT-Scan/MRI/NMR reports for a living, possibly in a hospital. How is it more expensive than a cardiology seat?
Pure demand/supply. A radiologist is required for almost every procedure these days. While a cardiologist will be required to deal with hearts and a neurologist with brains, a radiologist will be required in both types of imaging.

Its not demand supply mismatch...its artficially created demand. today when you visit a doctor he will suggest you to do 10 different types of test..?????? he gets 10%-30%commission from the clinics doing tests. Sonography cost 1000/- in metros while same costs 200/- in small towns..???????? all doctors are working on percentage basis. And main reason is they have to get back the investmnt the have done to get doctor degree.
The culprit is the govt & ministers who allowed private colleges to flourish and abandoned the age old admission through merit system.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 18 Jun 2009 13:54

News Analysis: What Recent Moves in India Could Mean for American Higher Education

Kapil Sibal, India's new minister in charge of higher education, might actually do what many Indians have long hoped for: shake up the country's dysfunctional higher-education system. He may also do what many Americans have wished for: open India up to foreign universities.

http://chronicle.com/daily/2009/06/2013 ... _medium=en

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 18 Jun 2009 14:54

sugriva wrote:^^^^exactly why does a radiology seat sell for 2 crores and a cardiology one for 1.5 crores. I thought radiologists only interpreted X-ray/CT-Scan/MRI/NMR reports for a living, possibly in a hospital. How is it more expensive than a cardiology seat?

Dear Surgiva. I am myself an anaesthetic specialist in a big corporate hospital. I interact on regular basis with specialists of all streams. Paying such a hefty sum for Radiology is not wise unless you have a hospital of radiology built by parents who need some one to take care of this medical property. Cardiologists (all of them do interventional these days) earn up to 4-5 lacs a month and they are matched only by Urologists and some lucky surgeons. Else no one earns such a big amount in medical fraternity. These days a superspeciality has come up in Radiology called Interventional neuroradiologist, there are apparently only 4 seats at the moment in India per year, they are in huge demand.

The situation in medical field is horrible, after passing MBBS you are no where. These fresh MBBS spend years preparing for MD/MS entrance which is the only hope for people with lame luck like me. In the process, internship and House job training gets ignored. Many of them sit down (doing nothing) after internship to prepare for the exams. There are not more than 900 MD/MS seats in All India exam and there are some 50 000 aspirants. Then doctors (other than Delhi and NCT hospitals) are paid pittance as PG stipend, it takes at least 10-12 years from the point of starting medical education to reach some where. If you decide to do superspecialisation another round of similar grind and kamar tod training of 3 years..!
Seeing me none of my cousins have dared to venture into medicine, though I have not done bad.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Jun 2009 20:09

^ Well one reason could be due to the new fad about prescribing a CT scan or even a MRI for non serious issues for a correct diagnosis; all one needs is some capital investment to start off and you can have a MRI/CT scan machine installed and start minting money.

Btw if all the people in India if doctors start complaining about the packages then all one can say is ..

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Jun 2009 20:23

amol.p wrote:Its not demand supply mismatch...its artficially created demand. today when you visit a doctor he will suggest you to do 10 different types of test..?????? he gets 10%-30%commission from the clinics doing tests. Sonography cost 1000/- in metros while same costs 200/- in small towns..???????? all doctors are working on percentage basis. And main reason is they have to get back the investmnt the have done to get doctor degree.
The culprit is the govt & ministers who allowed private colleges to flourish and abandoned the age old admission through merit system.

Well, a sonography costs Rs. 40,000 ($800) where I live, so I don't see why these prices are outrageous. The age old shortage economy where you had to wait in line for days at the local government hospital and had to go abroad for many procedures didn't go far enough towards improving the health of the citizens now, did it?

In any case, no one compels patients to get these tests done. They can always refuse and show up at the hospital if they need help later.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 18 Jun 2009 20:41

vera_k wrote:And main reason is they have to get back the no.oinvestmnt the have done to get doctor degree.

Other than hard work most of us haven't invested any thing in getting the degree. But I agree with the commission and other aspects, docs are themselves responsible for losing respect. strict regulations are needed by govt so that every one gets treated. At the moment it is a loot out there, corporate hospitals are charging up to Rs 10 000 for contrast MRI while you can get same done at lower price in smaller private hospital.

Dear negi. Trust me docs are actually paid in pittance. I will try to dig up the article on RXPG some one posted it, while no. of aspirants has risen dramatically over last 15 years for IIT and engg, for medicine the number is nearly same keeping in mind that no. of class 12th pass is only increasing. This means popularity of medicine as profession is decreasing. Most of the docs think in the line I have said above.

Read this
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fi ... &sec=focus

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2009 20:52

I agree. my doctor classmates work for small pvt hospitals and dont earn lavishly just enough, even for recession proof areas like obgyn. I think only after 10-15 yrs exp and repution they can become independent consultant doctors and make serious money. Govt doctor salaries are again quite poor and workload very high in areas like outpatient care and surgery. for every superstar doctor there must be 20 others just managing a living.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 18 Jun 2009 21:10

IndraD wrote:Other than hard work most of us haven't invested any thing in getting the degree. But I agree with the commission and other aspects, docs are themselves responsible for losing respect

strict regulations are needed by govt so that every one gets treated. At the moment it is a loot out there, corporate hospitals are charging up to Rs 10 000 for contrast MRI while you can get same done at lower price in smaller private hospital.

Dear negi. Trust me docs are actually paid in pittance. I will try to dig up the article on RXPG some one posted it, while no. of aspirants has risen dramatically over last 15 years for IIT and engg, for medicine the number is nearly same keeping in mind that no. of class 12th pass is only increasing. This means popularity of medicine as profession is decreasing. Most of the docs think in the line I have said above.

Read this
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fi ... &sec=focus

I dunno, but people are willing to pay Rs 25 lakh for MBBS seat while not engineering seats cost barely 20% of this. Unless docs are making bug bucks, why would market pay 5 times for MBBS seat?

My doc friend is DM in neorology (physician) and works less, and charges very very honestly though he is in top 10 in Gujarat in in his field. Yet he makes over Rs 150,000 a month. Some psychiatrist make 5 times what he makes !! Another doc I know has clinic of his own with some 4-6 shabby bedsm and he charges Rs 500 to Rs 800 per day for that bed !! And then there are star performers like Dr. Ketan Desai who roll in wealth that would a king to shame.

But when I compare doc with IPS, IAS, neta, judges -- I find docs least dishonest of all. In commons too, docs have second most highest respectable position, first is soldiers.

The mess is because of corrupt Health Ministers and IAS in Center as well as State. Also, doctors should DIRECTLY elect MCI chief rather than use delegates, as delegates sell out and elect scum like Dr Ketan Desai. And Docs should also create replacement procedures for MCI chief. Dr. Shiv, our resident "eye mechanic"

can add more.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 18 Jun 2009 21:22

These days a superspeciality has come up in Radiology called Interventional neuroradiologist, there are apparently only 4 seats at the moment in India per year, they are in huge demand.

Are neurosurgeons and neurologists in India able to qualify for interventional training as they do stateside here in the US?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 18 Jun 2009 21:24

Rahul Mehta sir, I know BJMC Ahmedabad very well, many of my friends have postgraduated from there. KDesai is a product of this place, while being a MS resident he was so influential that MCh was started in urology to accomodate him.
He is an exceptional case. As far the high capitation fees is concerned, one reason is that MBBS seats are much less compared to engg and most of the students going there are sons/daughter of rich doctors who need some one to take care of medical business. I agree docs are still quite respected, even sr police officers and netas leave behind a card offering help, in OPD. The reason is that the whole service rendered by a doctor can't be paid back in money. There is a human touch to it. For example if anaesthetist charges Rs 500 for an epidural steroid injection in a patient with low back ache in pain OPD, patient spends confortable 3 weeks blessing and thanking . So docs get paid more than money, often.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 18 Jun 2009 21:26

Omar wrote:Are neurosurgeons and neurologists in India able to qualify for interventional training as they do stateside here in the US?

No at the moment only MD Radiology is eligible. NIIMHANS is offering this course.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Jun 2009 22:46

Yes Doctors in Govt. Hospitals/medical colleges are not paid their due , and that is why some of these docs end up practicing in private on weekends or even weekdays (nothing wrong with that imho ). Infact I think if GOI/State Govt cannot pay a decent salary they should make private practice legal albit with regulations , I only see the Medical fraternity ,people and the Govt benefiting from such a move .

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Jun 2009 02:12

Sibal salvo on faculty quota- Minister’s view differs from that of predecessor Arjun

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Jun 2009 07:24

Wow...this is pretty revolutionary ..at least at a first glance.

Education panel wants UGC, AICTE scrapped

NEW DELHI: In an ambitious blueprint for reform of the education sector, the high-powered Yashpal Committee has recommended scrapping a whole lot
of powerful bodies -- University Grants Commission, All India Council for Technical Education, National Council for Teacher Education and Distance Education Council.

The committee, whose report is expected to serve as a template for measures to clean up the mess in higher education , has also recommended that IITs/IIMs be turned into universities and a GRE like test be evolved for university education.

The committee said a plethora of regulatory bodies like UGC should be replaced by a super regulator: a seven-member Commission for Higher Education and Research (CHER) under an Act of Parliament. It has also recommended, obviously with a view to buffer the new regulator against political and other pressures, that the position of chairperson of the proposed commission should be analogous to that of election commissioners.

The high-powered committee was set up under renowned scientist Yashpal, a former UGC chairman, with the mandate to suggest measures for "renovation and rejuvenation" of higher education in the country.

It also said the jurisdiction of other regulators -- Medical Council of India, Bar Council of India and others -- be confined to administrative matters, with universities
taking up their academic responsibilities.

Finalised on Monday and to be given to HRD minister Kapil Sibal on Wednesday, the report said that IITs and IIMs should be encouraged to diversify and expand their scope to work as full-fledged universities.

The panel also proposed a national testing scheme for university admissions on the lines of GRE which would be open to all aspirants and would be held more than once a year.

The proposed CHER, the report said, should first identify India's 1,500 top colleges to upgrade them as universities and then create clusters of potentially good colleges to evolve as universities. Also, all levels of teacher education should be brought under the purview of higher education....nice

Expressing concern on the mushrooming of engineering and management colleges, that had "largely become business entities dispensing very poor quality education", Yashpal committee lamented the growth of deemed universities and called for a complete ban on further grant of such status. Existing ones, the committee said, should be given three years to develop as a university and fulfil the prescribed accreditation norms.

Raising doubts about the source of funding of private education providers, the committee said mostly it was either "unaccounted wealth from business and political enterprises or from capitation fees". It said the system of conferring academic
designations as chancellors and vice-chancellors to members of the promoter's family should be done away with. They should submit to a national accreditation system. However, the committee underlined the need for private investment in higher education.

Recommending curricular reform, the committee said teachers should have the freedom to design courses and students should be able to study subjects outside their courses.

Of the seven members of the proposed CHER, one would be an eminent professional from the world of industry. Chairperson and members will be selected by a committee headed by the PM, Leader of Opposition and the Chief Justice of India. Commission will have five divisions dealing with future directions, accreditation management, funding and development and new institutions. An eminent individual will head each division for five years.

hmm.. sounds good to me however scrapping the UGC and AICTE will that be easy ?
Godspeed..Sibal , Prof Yashpal and Co .

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jun 2009 09:53

Rahul Mehta: One important question you have left un-asked and un-answered is : over 99% of Nbjprie want commons' kids to stay uneducated so that Nbjprie-kids will have better careers. This 5000 year old proven fact - eg Prof Dr Dronacharya refused to teach skills to Eklavya (a common purta) and later chopped off his thumb. Today, teachers and IAS in education dept are all carbon copies of these Dronacharya.

viv : RMji, This kind of exaggeration is what puts me off some of your posts.
Mahabharat shows an excellent character study of Drona. He has lived in poverty for long. Finally, he receives employment with the King, and then spares nothing in protecting his princes. He plays favourites (see Karna episode where Suyodhan crowns Karna King of Anga) and he looses his way. On what basis do you extend it to a 5000 year old fact? This is unnecessary, and takes away from the point you are making than support it.

In every society as well as present day India, Nbjprie want their kids to stay ahead and so devise ways by which their kids will get superior education and the kids of commons most pathetic poor quality of zero education. Ideally, they would prefer zero education for commons' kids, but when political pressure comes to provide them education, they will try to ensure that they get poorest quality education. Prof Dr. Dornacharya was no exception to this. Coming to present day education, you can see that educationists have filled the syllabus with useless subjects (like Sanskrit) and many students are not taught English for ages. In addition, all educationists opposed law and weapon use education lest commons would become strong.

So any education MUST address this problem -- that Nbjprie will try their best to ensure that commons kids end up wasting their time in school and learn as little English, Maths, Law, Science as possible so that kids of Nbjprie stay ahead.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 23 Jun 2009 14:12

Rahul Mehta wrote:
Rahul Mehta: One important question you have left un-asked and un-answered is : over 99% of Nbjprie want commons' kids to stay uneducated so that Nbjprie-kids will have better careers. This 5000 year old proven fact - eg Prof Dr Dronacharya refused to teach skills to Eklavya (a common purta) and later chopped off his thumb. Today, teachers and IAS in education dept are all carbon copies of these Dronacharya.

viv : RMji, This kind of exaggeration is what puts me off some of your posts.
Mahabharat shows an excellent character study of Drona. He has lived in poverty for long. Finally, he receives employment with the King, and then spares nothing in protecting his princes. He plays favourites (see Karna episode where Suyodhan crowns Karna King of Anga) and he looses his way. On what basis do you extend it to a 5000 year old fact? This is unnecessary, and takes away from the point you are making than support it.
In every society as well as present day India, Nbjprie want their kids to stay ahead and so devise ways by which their kids will get superior education and the kids of commons most pathetic poor quality of zero education. Ideally, they would prefer zero education for commons' kids, but when political pressure comes to provide them education, they will try to ensure that they get poorest quality education. Prof Dr. Dornacharya was no exception to this. Coming to present day education, you can see that educationists have filled the syllabus with useless subjects (like Sanskrit) and many students are not taught English for ages. In addition, all educationists opposed law and weapon use education lest commons would become strong.

So any education MUST address this problem -- that Nbjprie will try their best to ensure that commons kids end up wasting their time in school and learn as little English, Maths, Law, Science as possible so that kids of Nbjprie stay ahead.

Rahulji,
I do not know what you have got against sanskrit to call it useless. FYI, Sanskrit is also taken up as a first language in many schools to which the elite or economically well off go. The best option for India today is to teach Sanskrit along with English to all our students so that the best of knowledge hidden in ancient scripts in whatever fields they may is brought out.
Sometime back I had read an interview in rediff or some site (I do not have the link) with a sculptor in TN. He said that though he learnt lot from his master but could not or his master did not permit him to learn the sanskrit texts on sculptor because the master did not consider him fit for it(from the entire thing I felt it was more of a caste issue). The sculptor however felt his son was better and would get the knowledge from the texts throught the master.We have to see that such knowledge in whatever field is thrown open to the society.
I appreciate your arguments in many issues but please do not make generalized statements without basis

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 24 Jun 2009 02:35

I do not think a politician with large enough balls exists in India who would dare touch Bar council of India

Think about taking panga with couple of million Rahul Mehtas at once

If even half of what has been suggested is implemented, it would have profound impact on higher education for decades.

My cousin who is 23 years old with education up to 12th class (+ an year in college) lives in a small village and does forming for living. Their family has lot of land and they are well to do so he decided to diversify in education. Now he owns a degree college in a near by town. Anyone in my family who can't complete graduation can get an authentic first class graduate degree (BA, BCom etc) from him for free or for a small payment.

We need to fix this system! It’s ridiculous!

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jun 2009 07:13

Katare wrote:I do not think a politician with large enough balls exists in India who would dare touch Bar council of India

Think about taking panga with couple of million Rahul Mehtas at once

Errr ,..,. I have always been anti-UGC , and also demanded that UGC should be privatized and fully desubsidized, and land rent should be collected from UGC for the plots it is occupying. So why should I or people who think like me bother if UGC is liquidated?

My cousin who is 23 years old with education up to 12th class (+ an year in college) lives in a small village and does forming for living. Their family has lot of land and they are well to do so he decided to diversify in education. Now he owns a degree college in a near by town. Anyone in my family who can't complete graduation can get an authentic first class graduate degree (BA, BCom etc) from him for free or for a small payment.

We need to fix this system! It’s ridiculous!

The trivial solution to enact a procedure by which we citizens can replace EduMin. And ALL degrees should be given after tests taken by Testing Dept under EduMin.

What solution do you propose?

---

The solution proposed by Sibal is useless. He is replacing one authority by another. IOW, he is merely changing persons and labels.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 24 Jun 2009 10:10

Rahul Mehta, please desist. You have your threads.....

Moral: Post news items if you would like to share. Do not opinionate and posture unless it is really that important..... And if your judgment has been castigated before, by more than one, be a liberal in using the word caution.

alok_m · Post by **alok_m** » 25 Jun 2009 00:27

Indian college rankings by Livemint. Nice compilation across varied subjects.

http://www.livemint.com/articles/keywor ... 20colleges