LCA news and discussion

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Jun 2009 12:01

This may be discussed earlier...

but anybody know the status of IRST\FLIR for tejas according to vayu(BR site).
It was told that DRDO co-dev. with israel.

thanks in advance...

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 19 Jun 2009 15:08

nash wrote:This may be discussed earlier...

but anybody know the status of IRST\FLIR for tejas according to vayu(BR site).
It was told that DRDO co-dev. with israel.

thanks in advance...

Podded IRST for Tejas Mk2... not looking at an IRST right now (info courtesy Cde Balaji at AI)... no idea about the origin.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jun 2009 18:09

it was an understanding that the single port side intake beneath the fuselage would be used for FLIR/IRST/recon/... but I guess, it would be only one pod... unless they can club all these features into one pod, the port would be mutually exclusive for these specific featured pods perhaps based on mission requirements (role)?

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 22 Jun 2009 03:36

no idea about the origin.

They are from Rafael. Don't have a reference for co-development w/DRDO. I bet Tech Focus or DRDO Newsletters would be a good place to start.

Link: http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3273

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 22 Jun 2009 12:59

I know AI09 is long gone and most of the info we already know but found some interesting stuff on this post

X- Posting from acig.org

Post by archerblack

Latest on LCA from AI 2009 - all info from test pilots, developers themselves.

IAF will procure 40 LCA MK1 with GE404 IN20, including 8 LSP, 20 MK1 and 12 trainers
IAF will procure 100 (at least) LCA MK2, with new engines. Competition between EJ 200 and GE414. EJ200 is seen as newer tech.
Kaveri has met original design goals but is behind revised spec for LCA Mk2.
LCA Mk2, empty weight 6.5T, MTOW 13.5T

Current LCA range more than predicted- why? LCA aerodynamics are better than expected and GE engine is extremely fuel efficient.

Even so, more drag reduction etc will be looked at as a more powerful engine is being procured for LCA Mk2.

Current LCA has hybrid radar - Indian hardware, antenna, transmitter etc with ELTA software. Tracking of > 100 km against small targets, proven in testing.

To speed up Mk2 development EADS has been tapped for consultancy. ADA/IAF state that the current flight testing regime can be sped up drastically as an external test agency can audit the flight test points required, and eliminate the unnecessary ones. This replaces the agreement with BAe which was used earlier, but which BAe dropped out of, because they were too busy with the EF program and had manpower constraints.

Boeing was the first choice, but the issues of ITAR etc made them lose the bid.

LCA Mk1 has already transitioned to a completely open architecture system - took 3 years to develop, after IAF asked for it. The current OAC replaces an earlier proprietary federated system which ran on (then) intel 960 type chips. Current OAC replaces dual MC, dual display processors and a display map generator with a single OAC, and another (backup) on hot standby. Uses PowerPC chips - 3 versions (h/w) developed, but s/w more or less remained the same.

LCA Mk1 also has a redesigned wing structure to accomodate heavier missiles, asked for by the IAF in 2003-4.

Stores Management system is of the latest type can handle western, eastern and indian weapons, uses the 1760 standard and discrete pylon interface boxes for maximum flexibility.

In terms of handling and FBW, has won IAF confidence for flight envelope and IAF now feels ADA should directly jump to LCA Mk2 using most of the core technologies of the LCA Mk1, and begin the MCA program as well.

Other features:
- New AESA radar (codevelopment between LRDE India and either ELTA or EADS/SELEX)
- CIP (common integrated processor eg see JSF/F-22 architecture, replacing current Open Avionics Computer)
- All internal RWJ suite - radar warning jammer, with DRFM, digital receiver and able to handle multiple threats (A2A, A2G)
RWJ system also to be fielded on MiG-27 Upg and MiG-29 Upg. Currently being fitted out to the MiG-27 for trials already.

LCA Mk2 to be developed by 2012.

Apart from the above, is the airframe integration etc of the new engine which will also be covered in the same timeframe.

All in all good times for the LCA program, all LCA TP and IAF crew familiar with the program very upbeat about the aircraft and state that ADA has incorporated changes they asked for.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 22 Jun 2009 13:10

^^^ Excellent recap of the overall Tejas picture.... has to be saved... can admins copy this onto the AI09 thread for posterity... this post provides a good starting point to explore, given that a lot of the details have been explored in the thread, esp the radar, Mk2, Avionics, etc...

Thanks

and thanks for posting Krishna

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 22 Jun 2009 19:53

A beauty of the LCA Tejas

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/be ... tejas.html

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 22 Jun 2009 20:29

If Kaveri has met its original design goals then why do they not fly say 5-10 LCAs with it?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jun 2009 20:38

Vivek K wrote:If Kaveri has met its original design goals then why do they not fly say 5-10 LCAs with it?

(Has it?)

The key could be "original design goals". Perhaps the goals have moved on and it is not worth flying a LCA with the original goals?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 22 Jun 2009 20:46

Well, for Indian aerospace industry and for self-reliance in the future, Kaveri is the critical path and the biggest hurdle. If it has met the "original design goals" it should be flown a lot to gain more expertise from the project. Maybe in a Mig-29 as one of the engines if not in a LCA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jun 2009 21:24

Any more links on the CIP for Mk2? they have only 3 more years left to get this on the delivery? Raptor courts 66 power pc modules for its CIP, equallying two cray super computing power.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Jun 2009 00:45

SKrishna wrote:I know AI09 is long gone and most of the info we already know but found some interesting stuff on this post

X- Posting from acig.org

Post by archerblack
Latest on LCA from AI 2009 - all info from test pilots, developers themselves.

IAF will procure 40 LCA MK1 with GE404 IN20, including 8 LSP, 20 MK1 and 12 trainers
IAF will procure 100 (at least) LCA MK2, with new engines. Competition between EJ 200 and GE414. EJ200 is seen as newer tech.
Kaveri has met original design goals but is behind revised spec for LCA Mk2.
LCA Mk2, empty weight 6.5T, MTOW 13.5T

Current LCA range more than predicted- why? LCA aerodynamics are better than expected and GE engine is extremely fuel efficient.

Even so, more drag reduction etc will be looked at as a more powerful engine is being procured for LCA Mk2.

Current LCA has hybrid radar - Indian hardware, antenna, transmitter etc with ELTA software. Tracking of > 100 km against small targets, proven in testing.

To speed up Mk2 development EADS has been tapped for consultancy. ADA/IAF state that the current flight testing regime can be sped up drastically as an external test agency can audit the flight test points required, and eliminate the unnecessary ones. This replaces the agreement with BAe which was used earlier, but which BAe dropped out of, because they were too busy with the EF program and had manpower constraints.

Boeing was the first choice, but the issues of ITAR etc made them lose the bid.

LCA Mk1 has already transitioned to a completely open architecture system - took 3 years to develop, after IAF asked for it. The current OAC replaces an earlier proprietary federated system which ran on (then) intel 960 type chips. Current OAC replaces dual MC, dual display processors and a display map generator with a single OAC, and another (backup) on hot standby. Uses PowerPC chips - 3 versions (h/w) developed, but s/w more or less remained the same.

LCA Mk1 also has a redesigned wing structure to accomodate heavier missiles, asked for by the IAF in 2003-4.

Stores Management system is of the latest type can handle western, eastern and indian weapons, uses the 1760 standard and discrete pylon interface boxes for maximum flexibility.

In terms of handling and FBW, has won IAF confidence for flight envelope and IAF now feels ADA should directly jump to LCA Mk2 using most of the core technologies of the LCA Mk1, and begin the MCA program as well.

Other features:
- New AESA radar (codevelopment between LRDE India and either ELTA or EADS/SELEX)
- CIP (common integrated processor eg see JSF/F-22 architecture, replacing current Open Avionics Computer)
- All internal RWJ suite - radar warning jammer, with DRFM, digital receiver and able to handle multiple threats (A2A, A2G)
RWJ system also to be fielded on MiG-27 Upg and MiG-29 Upg. Currently being fitted out to the MiG-27 for trials already.

LCA Mk2 to be developed by 2012.

Apart from the above, is the airframe integration etc of the new engine which will also be covered in the same timeframe.

All in all good times for the LCA program, all LCA TP and IAF crew familiar with the program very upbeat about the aircraft and state that ADA has incorporated changes they asked for.

I have the ad somewhere for the board used. Its a dual powerpc 450 chip on a single board. Two of those are used. They purchased those back in 2004/2005 time frame.

Radstone uk was the original supplier. It got bought out by GE fanuc later.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 23 Jun 2009 04:01

Vivek K wrote:
If Kaveri has met its original design goals then why do they not fly say 5-10 LCAs with it?

(Has it?)

The key could be "original design goals". Perhaps the goals have moved on and it is not worth flying a LCA with the original goals?

Short answer, yes.

I went to the archives and pulled up this link to k prasad's AI 2009 post about the Kaveri engine-probably one of the most high impact posts on BR this year

.

Here's a quote:

He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Jun 2009 04:02

Omar wrote: I went to the archives and pulled up this link to k prasad's AI 2009 post about the Kaveri engine-probably one of the most high impact posts on BR this year .

That was a classic

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jun 2009 06:37

Well Omarji, well played. But the long answer stands too.

The point being that the original specs, although met, are of no use to a combat LCA.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Jun 2009 09:54

But my point remains - there is a secondary goal in the Kaveri program - to get experience with aircraft engines. The Kaveri in current form should still be used to power some a/c to gain experience.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 23 Jun 2009 20:08

But my point remains - there is a secondary goal in the Kaveri program - to get experience with aircraft engines. The Kaveri in current form should still be used to power some a/c to gain experience.

And it will. According to k prasad's post, if complete engine trials at CIAM were successful, then the LCA will integrated with Kaveri around October this year. The long term question is whether India will invest money to develop facilities for engine testing that exist at CIAM and AneCom.

naird · Post by **naird** » 24 Jun 2009 17:40

http://www.ada.gov.in/others/CurrentNew ... -lca_.html

239 test flights.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 24 Jun 2009 17:44

naird wrote:
239 test flights.

The real number is 1139, did you apply any special branch of Mathematics to derive the 239 number ? ( 1139 == 1+1,39 == 239 ?)

naird · Post by **naird** » 24 Jun 2009 17:47

JaiS wrote:
naird wrote:
239 test flights.

The real number is 1139, did you apply any special branch of Mathematics to derive the 239 number ? ( 1139 == 1+1,39 == 239 ?)

I seriously dont know where 239 came from ....correction its 1139 ....In betn the logic of 239 was excellent ...!!!!

yossarian · Post by **yossarian** » 25 Jun 2009 06:15

Just did some searching and couldn't quite find any videos or snapshots of the LCA in acrobatic displays(apart from the sole inverted flight video) demonstrating agility, while JF17 seems to have attempted and shown off quite a few moves.

Wouldn't ADA release such displays (and after 1000+ test flights, aren't such displays expected? )

Whats the word on Tejas's agility in comparison to other aircraft around the world?

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 25 Jun 2009 06:34

how about you read skrishna's post on the top of this page ......and if you really wanna learn read the aero india thread where kprasad, rakall etc have done awesome work.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2009 06:37

yossarian wrote:Just did some searching and couldn't quite find any videos or snapshots of the LCA in acrobatic displays(apart from the sole inverted flight video)

Have you seen these:

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jun 2009 12:50

LCA weapons testing images from Journal of aeronautical sciences of India
Image courtesy ADA

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 25 Jun 2009 13:02

Thank you so much Mehtaji.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jun 2009 13:10

Note the use of multiple pylons in the first image.
BTW, the Feb 2009 issue of the same journal has the ENTIRE Aero India 09 Symposium presentations WITH DIAGRAMS, PHOTOS AND TABLES.
And one interesting tidbit there was that there was some interest shown in a Thrust vectored EJ200 for LCA.
If eurojet is putting in TVC, it would win hands down, apparently there has been a tech demonstrator project for EJ200 TVC.
krishg, you are welcome.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 25 Jun 2009 13:15

Can anyone figure out the serial number?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Jun 2009 13:31

K Mehta wrote:LCA weapons testing images from Journal of aeronautical sciences of India
...

That is a beautiful photo. Tussi great ho, Mehtaji.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jun 2009 13:48

krishnan wrote:Can anyone figure out the serial number?

I think its PV3

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2009 14:18

K Mehta wrote:LCA weapons testing images from Journal of aeronautical sciences of India
Image courtesy ADA

Thanks!

Note Litening pod

naird · Post by **naird** » 25 Jun 2009 20:15

http://www.ada.gov.in/others/CurrentNew ... -lca_.html

LCA completes 1141 test flights.

Can someone tell me the number of test flight hours that needs to be logged in before getting a FOC or IOC ? LCA must have completed apprx 600 hours of testing considering average sortie hours to be 30 mins.

yossarian · Post by **yossarian** » 25 Jun 2009 20:32

shiv wrote:
yossarian wrote:Just did some searching and couldn't quite find any videos or snapshots of the LCA in acrobatic displays(apart from the sole inverted flight video)

Have you seen these:

Thanks.....

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 25 Jun 2009 22:24

naird wrote:http://www.ada.gov.in/others/CurrentNew ... -lca_.html

LCA completes 1141 test flights.

Can someone tell me the number of test flight hours that needs to be logged in before getting a FOC or IOC ? LCA must have completed apprx 600 hours of testing considering average sortie hours to be 30 mins.

2000 hours is the norm applicable for FOC however other parameters of the test-envelope being met are even of more importance.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 25 Jun 2009 22:33

Thanks!

Note Litening pod

ADA is still using LITENING pod for ground-target acquisition. Willn't any of the prototypes be fitted with a radar ??

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Jun 2009 22:42

K Mehta wrote:Note the use of multiple pylons in the first image.
BTW, the Feb 2009 issue of the same journal has the ENTIRE Aero India 09 Symposium presentations WITH DIAGRAMS, PHOTOS AND TABLES.
And one interesting tidbit there was that there was some interest shown in a Thrust vectored EJ200 for LCA.
If eurojet is putting in TVC, it would win hands down, apparently there has been a tech demonstrator project for EJ200 TVC.
krishg, you are welcome.

thanks for the great pics K Mehta ! when you say multiple pylons, what are you referring to ? I can see that there are 2 X 1000 lb bombs on the inboard pylons and 1 R-73 and 1 25kg bomb carrier on the outermost pylons alongwith a Litening LDP..there is no multiple ejection rack on any of the pylons as far as I can tell..

would you be able to scan anything else that would interest jingos here ? would make for a welcome change from the ridiculous MRCA thread..

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 25 Jun 2009 23:41

KrishG wrote:
Thanks!

Note Litening pod
ADA is still using LITENING pod for ground-target acquisition. Willn't any of the prototypes be fitted with a radar ??

LSP 3 would be fitted with MMR

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 26 Jun 2009 11:48

Kartik wrote: thanks for the great pics K Mehta ! when you say multiple pylons, what are you referring to ? I can see that there are 2 X 1000 lb bombs on the inboard pylons and 1 R-73 and 1 25kg bomb carrier on the outermost pylons alongwith a Litening LDP..there is no multiple ejection rack on any of the pylons as far as I can tell..

would you be able to scan anything else that would interest jingos here ? would make for a welcome change from the ridiculous MRCA thread..

Sorry for the confusion Kartik,
I meant that all 4 wing pylons were being used, I mistakenly used the term multiple pylons. That along with litening pod would mean that A2G weapons testing has reached quite an advanced stage.
In the Feb 2009 issue, there is a Talk (article in the journal) on EJ TVC I think by some Eurojet executive, but I felt apparently the whole talk was about integrating EJ200 with 3D TVC in LCA. The point was further elaborated by a picture of LCA showing control surfaces and a thrust vectoring engine in the same article. This is a very very interesting possibility

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 26 Jun 2009 12:21

Question to gurus:

Earlier there was this discussion about the dumb bombs being dropped and how the external parameters, speed etc are used to calculate the release point.
My question is, how is the wind speed measured/calculated? . Wind conditions , I think , need not be the same at all altitudes. How is this factured in?

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 26 Jun 2009 12:35

Isn't LCA supposed to be the workhorse of the IAF?

If so then LCA should be more numerous than any other aircraft inventory IMHO, but IAF plans for LCA puts it around 180 airframes, this is lesser the Mig 21's(The former workhorse).

By Workhorse we are talking about a system that is dependable, requires less maintenance and so shorter turaround, lower op costs and maintenance costs. If so then why does the LCA require TVC engine, it by itself is a RSS design which by itself makes it highly manverable, The TVC only increases maintenance and costs. Or is there other plans for LCA like operating in enemy airspace on SEAD, CAS etc.?

can some gurus tell me what is the role the IAF has in mind for LCA? and if it is indeed the backbone if IAF then why its projected airframe numbers are below even MMRCA(including the 126+ future option)?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 26 Jun 2009 13:34

Sivavijay,
Think Naval LCA. TVC=shorter takeoff distance etc. TVC has its advantages and disadvantages.
And why do you think Ground weapons testing is being done now, if it were not going to be used in a ground attack role? Regarding numbers, lets first see LCA complete IOC. With production lines at HAL, IAF can always have an extended production run.
MMRCA is different topic altogether and people are still debating about it. lets wait and watch what happens at the tech evaluations there.

BTW Kartik,
Any news from panwallahs regarding LSP-3 or PV-5? I havent had pan since long time but my panwallahs word on delay beyond march deadline was correct.