Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Vinito]

I believe the country could be Ecuador, maybe to add to it's fleet of 25 Leopard-1 tanks and retire it's very old fleet of the French AMX-13.

It is unlikely that Ecuador or Peru can afford a tank like Arjun, which is only being inducted now and has a number of foreign components that raise price. They tend to buy older and less capable second hand vehicles. Chile recently acquired Leo-2A4.

Why cant India maybe buy a few second hand or new Leopard 2A4 or 2A5 tanks and reverse engineer its gun if the Germans are not willing to sell these guns to India. The Leopard guns are considered to be the best in the world and even the M1A2 & Challenger 2 use the Leopard's guns.

Getting this gun in the Arjun will make the tank only better.

[Vinito]

YES

There were trials held in Russia (with T 90s NOT with Natashas !! ) And in the trials the firing of REFLEX ATGMs, from the barrel of the gun failed miserably. And what do you think IA did.

OF COURSE THEY ACCEPTED THE T 90s

WHY ?

Because our Russian friends said that they will modify the system in India.

BTW there is one more trick up th red sleeve. Whenever there are problems with new equipment Russians do not come immediately. They come as soon as the guarantee period is over !!

K

Trials were conducted in India also

well the whole ATMG issue was highlighted in India not Russia, and it was only in a particular test case which was solved by the way

Well every product manufacture has some thing up his sleeve dosent he ? do u know what DRDO has had up there sleeve in case of ARJUN ?

If the Indian government is more concerned of missiles doing what the Arjun can do with its regular rounds why dont they consider using the LAHAT missile and just move on. The T-90 has always been criticized for its auto loader system being a coffin for the crew once the armour is penetrated compared to the Arjun which has more armour & also saves the crew through the use of blow out panels.

The T-90, once its Kontakt ERA's are expended is a sitting duck for any regular ATGM. Compare this wil the ARjun which has more armour and hence can fight on longer.

I just fail to understand why in the world does our own government not take these things into account. On once hand we have the T-90 which has yet to be inducted in the Russian army & built for their specifications and on the other hand we have the Arjun which inspite of being developed in the 80's still outclasses the T-90 in every respect. It has been developed for our kind of environment. Yes, we do have problems with the design but which country hasnt had problems? Rather than encouraging DRDO to work them out we discourage them further by buying technology which sucks even more and continue buying more and more of them. In spite of the fact that during every war the predecessors of the T-90 has been demolished e.g. the assulat in Grozny where Chechen rebels destroyed T-72 & T-80 tanks. The gulf war where the T-72 was just no match for the M1A2 & Challenger 1 series.

[Vinito]

how many T90 we are producing every year and how many t90 we have in our forces so far. Thank you

ps to those who call russian tanks as junk, what other options we had, what do you expect from the army to wait for the mighty Arjun another 10 years, they went for t90 because that was best option or the only option availabe for us at that time.

Could India not have looked at the Merkava or the Leclerc tank as a possible option. It would have been a better option to have a competition the way we have for howitzers.

I am quite positive that we would not have had problems getting these tanks from Israel or France who would be more than happy to supply the large needs of the Indian Army.

It would be wonderful if the Challenger 2 or Leopard 2A6 could have also been supplied...those tanks kick a**

[suryag]

Reverse engineering a gun is quite difficult IMO, it is definitely not as easy as reverse engineering s/w or hardware components. I am no expert in metallurgy Making a gun consists of IMO three components

1. Composition of the alloys - the composition can be cracked may be in a year with existing tools
2. Gun designing - The structure of the grooves and the trigger mechanism - this may be easier than (1)
3. Gun making process - the gun after it has been forged has to be cured at the right temperatures so that it doesnt explode or act weirdly under different circumstances.

Keeping these in mind and also understanding that we already have designed and deployed a rifled gun(in arjun) it is better that we work on its advancements rather than devoting our efforts to reverse engineer a gun. After all we dont have infinite resources, definitely not the will to run multiple projects for the same end goal, some of which could flop, which inturn might invite a damning report by CAG and a further damning report that will be peddled for years after the event by DDM.

JMT

[ramana]

The Russians always had parallel projects a gun and a howitzer. however with advent of ATGMs and the former is dropping in priority.

So my question is taking the 120mm Arjun gun barrel can it be made into a large caliber howitzer say 155mm?

A howitzer has lesser pressure than a gun generally.

[Vinito]

The Russians always had parallel projects a gun and a howitzer. however with advent of ATGMs and the former is dropping in priority.

So my question is taking the 120mm Arjun gun barrel can it be made into a large caliber howitzer say 155mm?

A howitzer has lesser pressure than a gun generally.

With regards to howitzers I have heard that the Russians are developing a twin barrel howitzer named "Koalitsiya"...it looks like the MSTA-S but has two instead of one barrels.

With regards to an increase in the gun calibre the Russians already have developed a 140 mm barrel which was developed as an option for the "Black Eagle" prototype...however the prototype was tested with the standard 2A46M-1 gun. It seems that this gun was developed as part of a South Korean requirement

[AdityaM]

Driving down (in Delhi) yesterday, i saw 2 open trucks transporting Humvee lookalikes!
And the label on the desi-Humvee read - Vectra.
And they were painted in army camouflage pattern
Any further info available on these?

[naird]

Driving down (in Delhi) yesterday, i saw 2 open trucks transporting Humvee lookalikes!
And the label on the desi-Humvee read - Vectra.
And they were painted in army camouflage pattern
Any further info available on these?

Vectra LSV was one of the vehicles in the Army LSV competion ; others being Mahindra AXE & TATA LSV....never knew it has been inducted.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... dian+roads

[rkhanna]

Picture of all LSV Competitors undergoing Winter Trials. (You can see the Vectra)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... 785611.jpg


From what i remmember reading somewhere the Mahindra-Israeli AXE proved to be the best of the lot but also the most costly and hence the army didnt favour it.

[k prasad]

Getting this gun in the Arjun will make the tank only better.

We already have a phenomenal gun in the Arjun... one of only two rifled guns in use... developing a modern tank gun is something that neither US or isreal have done, both going for the German gun... so be proud of what we've achieved.

[naird]

Getting this gun in the Arjun will make the tank only better.

We already have a phenomenal gun in the Arjun... one of only two rifled guns in use... developing a modern tank gun is something that neither US or isreal have done, both going for the German gun... so be proud of what we've achieved.

Sorry being naive ...but which one is better ....rifled or smoothbore ?? Its generally observed all the advanced western as well as russian tanks has smoothbore.....and why did India choose rifled gun ?

[k prasad]

We already have a phenomenal gun in the Arjun... one of only two rifled guns in use... developing a modern tank gun is something that neither US or isreal have done, both going for the German gun... so be proud of what we've achieved.

Sorry being naive ...but which one is better ....rifled or smoothbore ?? Its generally observed all the advanced western as well as russian tanks has smoothbore.....and why did India choose rifled gun ?

The main advantage of a rifled gun is the use of HESH rounds, which depends on doctrine of use... HESH rounds are generally considered impt by IA and Britain, hence the preference for rifled guns... in a smoothbore, you cant use HESH rounds...

However, FSAPDS rounds can be easily used in smoothbore guns, since they don't need to be spin stabilized. Sabot rounds are more difficult to fire from rifled guns, but we have been able to develop rounds that can be fired.

Rifled guns give a far better accuracy at long ranges (the record for longest tank gun kill in Gulf war '91 was a british challenger). The downside of course is shorter lifespan of the gun in terms of EFC (effective firing cycles) and higher maintenance due to the rifled nature of the bore, so that is a tradeoff to be made.


Ultimately, especially in military affairs, there is no one Better option... its all a bunch of tradeoffs, and you choose the best one based on ur needs, doctrine, logistics and tactics. Which is why Rifled guns were the norm in WW2, but no longer are so today. It may change tomorrow.. who knows.

More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_gun

Just FYI... list of countries that make their own tank guns:

- Germany - Rheinmetall L44/55 - on Leo, M1, Merk, SoKo and Jap tanks, etc.
- France - GIAT 120-26 52 cal tank gun - Leclerc
- Britain - L30 - on Chally 2 (rifled)
- Russia - 2A46M series - 125 mm - on Russian, Chinese (adapted version) & NoKo tanks (adapted from chinese copy)
- India - Arjun main gun
- Italy - OTO Melara 120 mm gun - used on Ariete

As you can see, only 6 developers today.

[Aditya_V]

k prasad -> who manufactures the American Abrams tank gun, surely there are replacements required for existing Abrams

[Gerard]

Why cant India maybe buy a few second hand or new Leopard 2A4 or 2A5 tanks and reverse engineer its gun if the Germans are not willing to sell these guns to India. The Leopard guns are considered to be the best in the world and even the M1A2 & Challenger 2 use the Leopard's guns. Getting this gun in the Arjun will make the tank only better.

If gun making were so simple, the US would not be buying their Abrams guns from the Germans and Bofors would not be in business for hundreds of years. This is a specialized field with a sharp learning curve and decades of trial and error research.

[krishnan]

And lots of moolah

[Gerard]

Could India not have looked at the Merkava or the Leclerc tank as a possible option. ..It would be wonderful if the Challenger 2 or Leopard 2A6 could have also been supplied...those tanks kick a**

But the separate logistics/maintenance trains for each tank type would not kick a**. They would hobble the fighting effectiveness of any army. RayC has recently pointed out the difference between the army and the airforce wrt deployed equipment in the field.

We appreciate the influx of new blood and the disparate views but perhaps some base level knowledge should be acquired before active participation in some threads? Please don't take this the wrong way. Many knowledgeable members have come up from the newbie threads.

[Vinito]

Could India not have looked at the Merkava or the Leclerc tank as a possible option. ..It would be wonderful if the Challenger 2 or Leopard 2A6 could have also been supplied...those tanks kick a**

But the separate logistics/maintenance trains for each tank type would not kick a**. They would hobble the fighting effectiveness of any army. RayC has recently pointed out the difference between the army and the airforce wrt deployed equipment in the field.

We appreciate the influx of new blood and the disparate views but perhaps some base level knowledge should be acquired before active participation in some threads? Please don't take this the wrong way. Many knowledgeable members have come up from the newbie threads.

My apologies with regards to the views expressed on the forum. However, my knowledge are mainly from a technological standpoint and as you mentioned maybe all aspects need to be considered before posting. Will definitely take this into account on my future posts.

[Vinito]

Came across a futuristic Russian tank in an ebook today with an impresssive set of features which is totally different and much more advanced than even the T-90. Its called the "Black Eagle". This is the first tank that places high importance on crew safety. The features are mentioned below.

1) Bustle mounted loader - different from the carousel loaders in the T series resulting in enhanced crew safety.(Longer rounds can be stored)
2) Kaktus ERA - Supposed to be much more effective than the Kontakt 5 ERA bricks
3) Drozd 2 active protection system - an advanced version of the Drozd with smaller rockets and more in number
4) 125 mm gun but the Russians are also developing a 152mm version as well - an advanced version of the 2A46M series

The turret looks different than all the T series of tanks. I will be uploading the pics soon...Kept on wondering after looking at this tank as to why did India buy the T-90 when it could have gotten a much more advanced version which would be on par with the west.

Mods - I apologize if this information has been posted earlier

[Surya]

ok newbie take it easy with the fanboy stuff


please go through past threads and get a feel for discussions before posting every new brochure you come across

[SanjibGhosh]

Indian, Russian rockets test-fired successfully

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=

[AdityaM]

Picture of all LSV Competitors undergoing Winter Trials. (You can see the Vectra)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... 785611.jpg

Although it was dark, I am pretty sure that the Vectra i saw was not like the vectra in the pic but like the left most Mahindra vehicle.

[Vinito]

ok newbie take it easy with the fanboy stuff


please go through past threads and get a feel for discussions before posting every new brochure you come across

With all due respect sir...I may be a recent member and also low on the posting part but I have been reading the forum postings for quite some time now (>3 years). My viewpoint may not necessarily suggest my inclination to paste all irrelevant information in the forum but something that I wish to share with everyone and in this respect I feel I may have not gone overboard. With regards to your statement saying that I am posting information for every new brochure I feel it was something that was related to the topic and was not much different that all the other members providing links or information from other online sites.

[KrishG]

Picture of all LSV Competitors undergoing Winter Trials. (You can see the Vectra)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... 785611.jpg


From what i remmember reading somewhere the Mahindra-Israeli AXE proved to be the best of the lot but also the most costly and hence the army didnt favour it.

Weren't those trials completed by the end of 2007. I'm surprised not to hear anything on this issue. IDF was also evaluating the AXE and there hasn't been any news from that side too.

[Vinito]

have uploaded 7 pics of the Black Eagle at the address mentioned below

http://img132.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=62405345.jpg

[nikhil_p]

ok newbie take it easy with the fanboy stuff


please go through past threads and get a feel for discussions before posting every new brochure you come across

With all due respect sir...I may be a recent member and also low on the posting part but I have been reading the forum postings for quite some time now (>3 years). My viewpoint may not necessarily suggest my inclination to paste all irrelevant information in the forum but something that I wish to share with everyone and in this respect I feel I may have not gone overboard. With regards to your statement saying that I am posting information for every new brochure I feel it was something that was related to the topic and was not much different that all the other members providing links or information from other online sites.

Welcome to BRF Vinito. Don't take offence in what Surya said...as you mentioned you have been looking at the forums for >3 yrs. You would have realized by now that the kind of topics discussed and the quality of discussions are very serious and relevant. Yes, the black eagle program (i call it a program as it is still in that stage) is relevant to the thread. However your naivete in stating that why did we go for the T-90 instead of this is what is surprising...The T-90 at that time was a mature tank design which was ready for production and induction, whereas the BE program was just a concept. To make a point, at the same time, the UK and US were talking about a fibreglass/composite turretless tank concept.
A 152 mm gun on a tank puts it in the range of tracked howitzers and no longer will we call it a tank. One reason being the breech of a 152 mm is larger and so the turret has less traverse. Also the turret will have a generally higher profile.
As Surya mentioned, this has been discussed, flogged to death and discarded on the forums already. It will surely be good if you read through the older posts and the archives before posting this. Also the black eagle program is old, as a general rule, news and programs are discussed on BRF almost as soon as the first bits of information come in...so...I hope you get the point.
Once again, Surya is not being abrasive but this is how it is...Welcome to BRF.

[Samay]

don't be disrespectful towards others, especially when you have completely misunderstood his post. when you are ill-informed/unable to understand something (in this case surya's point) it's better to stay mum.
consider this to be an unofficial warning for flaming and smart-alecky behaviour.

____________
@vinito, the black eagle project was unveiled sometime in late 90's and suspended in early 2000's due to lack of funds. it is not an ongoing project AFAIK.
unless something has changed in the last year, this is all old hat to most of us here, you don't need to post whole list of specifications on BR.
regards.

[k prasad]

k prasad -> who manufactures the American Abrams tank gun, surely there are replacements required for existing Abrams

Two words - License Production.

General Dynamics mfrs the M256 license version of the l44 for the abrams..

[nikhil_p]

ok newbie take it easy with the fanboy stuff


please go through past threads and get a feel for discussions before posting every new brochure you come across

With all due respect sir...I may be a recent member and also low on the posting part but I have been reading the forum postings for quite some time now (>3 years). My viewpoint may not necessarily suggest my inclination to paste all irrelevant information in the forum but something that I wish to share with everyone and in this respect I feel I may have not gone overboard. With regards to your statement saying that I am posting information for every new brochure I feel it was something that was related to the topic and was not much different that all the other members providing links or information from other online sites.
Take it easy vinito, just tell them at the end of your posts that Arjun/ Lca/ t90etc, is the best tank/AC, whatever....
some old habits of old fan boys dont go away that easily,
that is what you will discover if you go through past ...threads .

Samay...please take time to read what I have posted earlier. In no way is Surya trying to be a fanboy of the Arjun/etc...moreover, discussions of this kind are generally left alone on BRF. Moreover, suggest you to please take time to read the older posts. There are people on BRF who are a lot more knowledgeable than the average joe about this stuff.
Please edit your post as this could lead to a flame war.

[Rahul M]

KP, to your list of tank main guns you need to add the merkava's gun. it's not an out and out copy of the rhinemetal gun, the israelis have done some mods.

[alejandro_]

We already have a phenomenal gun in the Arjun... one of only two rifled guns in use... developing a modern tank gun is something that neither US or isreal have done, both going for the German gun... so be proud of what we've achieved.

UK is thinking about mounting Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore in their Challenger-II. In any case problem lays with developing and fielding ammo.

Just FYI... list of countries that make their own tank guns:

Quite a few countries missing:

- Ukraine: local versions of 2A46M-1.
- South Korea.
- Japan.
- Slovakia and probably Czech Republic.
- Poland.

So my question is taking the 120mm Arjun gun barrel can it be made into a large caliber howitzer say 155mm?

Probably, but you would need to change so many components that it would be like a new gun. More caliber means more recoil, pressures, strains...

Could India not have looked at the Merkava or the Leclerc tank as a possible option. It would have been a better option to have a competition the way we have for howitzers.

Leclerc was not quite ready. Leo-2 apparently was assesed but did not cope very well with heat. Maybe a licence production could have been acquired and avoid buying T-90/developing Arjun for so many years, but Leo-2 is quite expensive.

would be wonderful if the Challenger 2 or Leopard 2A6 could have also been supplied...those tanks kick a**

Leo-2A6 were not available when India really pushed for tanks (when Pakistan acquired T-80UD). Western countries did not (and still don't) have the production capability of Russia, which remains one of the major tank producers.

The T-90, once its Kontakt ERA's are expended is a sitting duck for any regular ATGM. Compare this wil the ARjun which has more armour and hence can fight on longer.

I just fail to understand why in the world does our own government not take these things into account.

They did check. A T-90 withstood hits by 120mm ammo without ERA.

[Rahul M]

- Ukraine: local versions of 2A46M-1.
- South Korea.
- Japan.

both ROK and Japan uses the rhinemetal L44/L55 in their MBTs.

license production was intentionally kept out of that list.

[sudeepj]

What makes the Rhinemetall L55 so special?

Wikipedia states that the muzzle velocity of the gun is ~1680m/s. The DRDO Gandiva gun was stated to be developing ~1650m/s in 2002. http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

In addition, it has the similar MRS as the Rhinemetall..

In addition to that, our gun can fire HESH at really long ranges accurately..

What makes the German gun so much better than our local maal?

Everything the German gun can do, Gandiva can (at least on paper)

[alejandro_]

license production was intentionally kept out of that list.

The original message referred to countries that made their own guns, thus it would apply. South Korean K2 gun is based on a 120mm L55 but not license production.

Everything the German gun can do, Gandiva can (at least on paper)

Its not only gun but the available ammo. German ammo is amongst the best of the world. Same with the gun, its not only initial velocity but life, accuracy, weight... I have talked to Leo-2 crew members and the opinion was the same: armament was second to none.

If you add to the already excellent gun, the FCS, then thats it.

[k prasad]

KP, to your list of tank main guns you need to add the merkava's gun. it's not an out and out copy of the rhinemetal gun, the israelis have done some mods.

Rahul and Alejandro... I didn't miss out these names... I just listed the countries that had completely developed tank guns ground up, not those who had done mods (however extensive) to licensed guns or reverse engineered guns.

Alejandro... the K2 uses the L55 itself... check ur source. In fact, even the 140 mm gun they wanted would have been developed by Rheinmetall itself.

What makes the Rhinemetall L55 so special?

Wikipedia states that the muzzle velocity of the gun is ~1680m/s. The DRDO Gandiva gun was stated to be developing ~1650m/s in 2002. http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

In addition, it has the similar MRS as the Rhinemetall... In addition to that, our gun can fire HESH at really long ranges accurately..

What makes the German gun so much better than our local maal? Everything the German gun can do, Gandiva can (at least on paper)

No one said that L55 is better than Gandiva (Note: Unofficial, Jingo name).

The L55 is a smoothbore, which automatically allows for higher muzzle velocities and pressures to be developed. But those are only two small factors in the terminal ballistic performance of the projectile, which is the main index of performance. So rather than looking at Gangotri to Analyze the Ganga, look at Allahbad to see its effects.

L55 is a good gun. It is reliable, performs well, and is extremely popular. Nothing wrong with it, no need to diss it. The Gandiva will also be good... lets just wait. As Alejandro says, good FCS and ammo is needed for a good system - with arjun, I think we can say that FCS will be good. Ammo is the next issue then.

[sudeepj]

What makes the Rhinemetall L55 so special?

Wikipedia states that the muzzle velocity of the gun is ~1680m/s. The DRDO Gandiva gun was stated to be developing ~1650m/s in 2002. http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

In addition, it has the similar MRS as the Rhinemetall... In addition to that, our gun can fire HESH at really long ranges accurately..

What makes the German gun so much better than our local maal? Everything the German gun can do, Gandiva can (at least on paper)

No one said that L55 is better than Gandiva (Note: Unofficial, Jingo name).

The L55 is a smoothbore, which automatically allows for higher muzzle velocities and pressures to be developed. But those are only two small factors in the terminal ballistic performance of the projectile, which is the main index of performance. So rather than looking at Gangotri to Analyze the Ganga, look at Allahbad to see its effects.

L55 is a good gun. It is reliable, performs well, and is extremely popular. Nothing wrong with it, no need to diss it. The Gandiva will also be good... lets just wait. As Alejandro says, good FCS and ammo is needed for a good system - with arjun, I think we can say that FCS will be good. Ammo is the next issue then.

What I found surprising was, that if you take wiki and the drdo tech focus as the official figures, the rifled Gandiva developed almost as high a muzzle velocity as the L55!

Furthermore, tech focus claimed the life of the barrel to be 500 rounds, which is about the same as the wiki figures for L55.

DRDO claims the dispersal for its gun to be 0.2 mil (I dont know what that means).. How does that compare with the L55?

That just leaves the ammo and the FCS.

All in all, at least on paper, we have a fairly formidable gun, that compares well with the established gold standard!

[ArmenT]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/co ... arjun.html
Aroor reporting that Colombia has submitted a RFI (Request for Information) about the Arjun MBT.

[Yogi_G]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/co ... arjun.html
Aroor reporting that Colombia has submitted a RFI (Request for Information) about the Arjun MBT.

Says page not found

[Surya]

says will repost later withmore details

[Jamal K. Malik]

Land Rover to make inroads into India's defence deals
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ls/362407/

Further, it is believed that the government is looking to spend Rs 3,000-4,000 crore for procurement of vehicles like heavy armoured trucks, armoured personal carriers and other tactical transport solutions for the defence sector this year alone.

[Yogi_G]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/co ... arjun.html
Aroor reporting that Colombia has submitted a RFI (Request for Information) about the Arjun MBT.

Says page not found

Its up now...

Added later: I think Dhruv has made quite a good impression in South America, the effect of good quality is seen. Hope this RFI goes on to become RFP and then a full fledged order

Of course thats thinking way too ahead and let me not even get into how this might impact relations with Chavezs Venezuela