The Indian National ID Card Project

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jun 2009 10:53

Those who want privacy.

How can GoI possibly manage to keep this data confidential?

If the data is on paper, no one can copy millions of papers.

But one data is in PC, how can GoI stop some errant employee from making copies?

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 27 Jun 2009 15:44

Rahul Mehta wrote:Those who want privacy.

How can GoI possibly manage to keep this data confidential?

If the data is on paper, no one can copy millions of papers.

But one data is in PC, how can GoI stop some errant employee from making copies?

What type of privacy actually?

IF someone happens to steal the name, age, sex, height, eye-color and some distinguishing features of a person, then what could he possible do with that?

I don't think Bank Account nos., or PAN nos., or ATM passwords will be in there.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 27 Jun 2009 18:43

Rahul Mehta wrote:Those who want privacy.

How can GoI possibly manage to keep this data confidential?

If the data is on paper, no one can copy millions of papers.

But one data is in PC, how can GoI stop some errant employee from making copies?

Then should'nt we all be worried about data stored for Indian Passports as well??

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 27 Jun 2009 19:09

Nandan Nilekani gave a talk today(27th Jun) in IIMB.
1. On the question of privacy, he said that he will hold dialogue with civil society and try to develop systems to prevent any misuse of data.He actually said that the problem is not so much the leakage and misuse of data but the usage of such data for government surveillance

2. On the question of illegal immigrants misusing the card he said that his concern is to provide cards to all the "residents" and not all the citizens. However the data obtained by the program can be used to weed out the illegal migrants, but that is for the govt to decide

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 27 Jun 2009 19:22

RamaY wrote:
krishnan wrote:Cost estimate puts it around rupees 50 per card .
That would be a gross miscalculation. IMO by the time the user gets a functional National ID card and can integrate it with other GOI functions, forget about what non govt entities such as banks have to do, The cost would be minimum 1000 Rs per card.

If they estimate for and plan for another Voter-id card type project, then this project is already failed.

Like someone said above, if people see this as just a IT-vity project, then they are short sighted. I hope they think thru the purpose, stakeholders, policy interdependencies, system/business interoperability, operational infrastructure, end-user usage climate and usage patterns, physical as well as electronic security, identity-theft, and fail over and disaster recovery systems.

Cost around Rs.400/-
Duration 3 years
Karnataka chosen as pilot state
If project succeed,it will change the country

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 27 Jun 2009 19:27

g.kacha wrote:
Jamal K. Malik wrote:This $6 billions only project will more helpful to TCS,Infosys and Wipro then Citizen.
Pray do tell me ... who in your opinion should be implementing this project so that they do not make a profit on this project ?

I wish they should make profit, but citizen should get their dues.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 27 Jun 2009 19:58

Rahul Mehta wrote:Those who want privacy.

How can GoI possibly manage to keep this data confidential?

What could one possibly do with such information?

As an aside, you have made public your name, address, financial assets etc during the past elections. Did you fear the loss of confidential information?
Also, if you try to attribute this project to the whims of the 'agents' you mention then you might as well not have faith in our very democracy itself. Why contest in elections at all? And can you fit a conspiracy theory in which your 'agents' dictate terms to each and every member of 300+ MPs in the ruling coalition ?

I appreciate your will to reform the system.You have set an example amongst us. All the same you cannot forget that you are an Indian( by birth) and so are all the MPs barring a few.
All of us Indians share many things in common sir. You, I and the MPs. You have to trust those who rule us.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jun 2009 20:12

prashanth wrote:
Rahul Mehta wrote:Those who want privacy.

How can GoI possibly manage to keep this data confidential?

I appreciate your will to reform the system.You have set an example amongst us. All the same you cannot forget that you are an Indian( by birth) and so are all the MPs barring a few.
All of us Indians share many things in common sir. You, I and the MPs. You have to trust those who rule us.

That is not what RM is trying to say.
Already lot of sociology data of Indian society and communities including castes have gone to US and western universities in the last 50 years (Actually 15o years to UK). They have manipulated that information for lot of things including media, education, missionary propagation, marxist propaganda, human rights etc.
Another information data point will add tools for manipulation.

UN population group monitors pop data from across the world. For Indians they have detailed information about everything including caste population and which community the pop is decreasing. But for China there is not much information about the pop breakup. Something is odd.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 27 Jun 2009 20:51

Acharya sir,

They have manipulated that information for lot of things including media, education, missionary propagation, marxist propaganda, human rights etc.
Another information data point will add tools for manipulation.

May be true. I dont argue about the misuse of such data. But, on that pretext we cannot ignore national security which is much more important, can we? In fact if I were a western power and if I wanted to see India ruined I would prevent this national ID project from happening. You will know it better than I, how the US has used its SSN for security.

Further you cannot do much about the misuse of our sociological and demographic data anyway. It is because we have divided ourselves too much on the basis of caste, ethnicity etc.And these divisions are here to stay. The west will keep trying to manipulate us, till they become ineffective when India's money power imroves anyway.
At best our institutions can try to pay them back in their own coin. That shouldn't be difficult. First persons of US, france after all do not have an appealing family history. And you cannot expect much from a population that puts such people in the top. Every worm has its weak point.

But for China there is not much information about the pop breakup.

Still, the infighting that continues in that country is apparent. Probably hiding sociological and demographic information to keep the country intact has turned out to be counterproductive?

George J · Post by **George J** » 27 Jun 2009 21:17

It would be nice if the new & improved and old jingos realized that this is the TEF not the Hot air forum and stopped pissing all over this thread. If you guys really like to screw up threads with your unsubstantiated stuff why don't you start your own UIAI thread on the Hot Air forum you can elucidate a more willing audience with your BS.

Back to the TEF topic:

1) The focus of this discussion should NOT be the END product, you can have a simple piece of paper like the US SSN card but the number printed on it carriers a SIGNIFICANT consequence to the bearer's life simply because how efficiently the number is integrated into every aspect of their lives.

2) There is no point having blood type, hair type............. stool type if you cannot start administrative reforms in the registration of births/death. But that is only the first step, just because you issued a card (with a UIN) does not mean anything unless other entities at the state and federal level start using it concurrently (most importantly what happens to the PAN # when you also have a UIN )

3) Assuming this will be implemented in my lifetime, you would also need to set up a "moderately fool proof method" to issue the same for folks who have been alive for a while not just birth or death. The only yardstick for that is the passport issuance process (forgery of passport is what the IT-Vity part is supposed to solve for the UIN card, but the issuance process to the common man is pretty much what UIN would have to follow and that is not easy).

4) I would have been happy if they had Nilekani as the "Chief Technology Architect" for the UIAI and appointed someone who understands the the workings of the government & bureaucracy to help out with the inception and distribution part. Being a CTO would be a demotion but CTA is what other IT-Vity types do before they move to philanthropy. The cabinet rank for a CTA would still be good reward, its basically allows him to get a PWD maintained bungalow in Lutyens Delhi (I think with 4-5 SQ) and an armored ambassador.

5) Finally, this is not the first time they put a technocrat in high office. I can think of Sam Petroda and this guy called Manmohan Singh who was the governor of RBI. But for those of you old enough to know who Sam Petroda is, his agency had little to do with the rest of the goverment with minimal or no interaction unless required. Manmohan Singh was the chief of a PSU and pretty much KNEW what to do before he was appointed FM. Nilekani's job would involved some SERIOUS policy chops.

Ramana:
Just been busy with work and kid.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jun 2009 22:05

prashanth wrote:
May be true. I dont argue about the misuse of such data. But, on that pretext we cannot ignore national security which is much more important, can we? In fact if I were a western power and if I wanted to see India ruined I would prevent this national ID project from happening.

If the ID uses Indian languages and multiple langauges then it will be good. This will add to the complexity to decipher the "information" out of the ID system.
The western experts already have so much data on Indians that they can link all the data together.

You will know it better than I, how the US has used its SSN for security.
Still, the infighting that continues in that country is apparent. Probably hiding sociological and demographic information to keep the country intact has turned out to be counterproductive?

US SSN system is based on immigration policy and an economic system built over a century.
There is documentation of every activity including telephone calls, credit txns, medical etc which provide additional information for cross check.
The history of immigration is not with any other country to be used and manipulated and hence SSN is only for internal use.

Further you cannot do much about the misuse of our sociological and demographic data anyway. It is because we have divided ourselves too much on the basis of caste, ethnicity etc.And these divisions are here to stay. The west will keep trying to manipulate us, till they become ineffective when India's money power imroves anyway.

THose "division" are social evolutions over thousand years or more and they are not for fighting with each other. This is for another thread.
The amount of social indoctrination which has gone into this after the British colonial project is enormous even after independence.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 28 Jun 2009 00:02

this NID card project wont be successful due to the type of project and will be controversial as it moves .. .

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Jun 2009 00:07

Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Jun 2009 00:47

What about pakis and bangladeshis who have got hold of Indian ration cards etc?

Are we now going to completely legitimize their claims by issuing them with NIDs?

Oh, joy to the world!

This will encourage many more of them to come running like cockroaches.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 Jun 2009 00:54

To be really successful w.r.t. security, the project should eventually issue IDs to *all* people from the subcontinent (Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Bhutanese, Nepalese, Afghan, Myanmarese, Tibetan, Maldivan). One way to start would be to ensure that anyone being issued a visa to India is also issued one of these cards so that the biometric information is captured.

satya · Post by **satya** » 28 Jun 2009 01:29

As per DB :

UID Card is suppose to build fences against future illegal immigrants not ones who have already entered . This is the current line of thinking in GoI .

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 28 Jun 2009 04:47

Regarding illegal immigrants getting the UID Card Nandan Nilekani has said in an interview that the mandate is for providing the card to all "residents" and not to all "citizens". Also he said issuing a card to all would be a very good way to capture info about all such illegal immigrants,what is to be done after that is for the politicians to decide.

sandys · Post by **sandys** » 28 Jun 2009 09:35

I have attempted to analyze the ID project from a technical and privacy related standpoint and propose some solutions - just wanted to get your opinions on that
http://digitalsarkaar.wordpress.com/200 ... d-project/

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 29 Jun 2009 10:43

Vipul wrote:Also he said issuing a card to all would be a very good way to capture info about all such illegal immigrants,what is to be done after that is for the politicians to decide.

Any idea on how the fact that the card-holder is not a bonafied citizen of India recorded? Did Mr.Nilekani mention any thing on that aspect? Honestly, I feel every Paki,BD alien in India would get this card and the would become bonafied citizens of India.

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Jun 2009 12:08

Hmm. This formerbabu thinks that Nilekani is being set up to fail. Don't know if it is a case of sour grapes that something as high profile as this has gone to a rank outsider and hence his plea that since it is "mechanistic" and needs "no innovation or creativity", it is perfectly suited for a babu.

But I think B.S Raghavan has a point. This has to be run on a track that is totally outside the usual Neta /Babu govt machinery, or it is probably destined for still born failure. Trying to teach the babu and bureaucracy donkeys a new trick to dance like a show pony simply wont work. You need a steed here if you want the fast paced change here. I think Raghavan's point is if you use the existing donkey cart, you wont accomplish much other than kicking it every now and then to move faster.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 29 Jun 2009 12:34

vina wrote:But I think B.S Raghavan has a point. This has to be run on a track that is totally outside the usual Neta /Babu govt machinery, or it is probably destined for still born failure.

Sooner or later as part of this project Nilekani would have to interact with the various govt. departments at the Centre, and in the States. And then he may have to tolerate the "go slow" mode in which these departments work. Or else there should be enough political will associated with this project, and some sort of a "mission mode" mentality is instilled in all departments associated with this mega-project.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 29 Jun 2009 12:39

If they make haste, the ID project may be able to piggyback on the coming census enumeration.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Jun 2009 20:30

vina wrote:Hmm. This formerbabu thinks that Nilekani is being set up to fail. Don't know if it is a case of sour grapes that something as high profile as this has gone to a rank outsider and hence his plea that since it is "mechanistic" and needs "no innovation or creativity", it is perfectly suited for a babu.

But I think B.S Raghavan has a point. This has to be run on a track that is totally outside the usual Neta /Babu govt machinery, or it is probably destined for still born failure. Trying to teach the babu and bureaucracy donkeys a new trick to dance like a show pony simply wont work. You need a steed here if you want the fast paced change here. I think Raghavan's point is if you use the existing donkey cart, you wont accomplish much other than kicking it every now and then to move faster.

I wonder how it would have been if this project is outsourced, to an independent entity outside the government structure with clear milestones (state by state) and item level budgetary/planning outlay.

I envision this project to take 10 years (minimum) with the following methodology:

1. Individual applying for it (similar to how we do for Driver’s license in the US), and get a photo-id in 1-2 minutes. Such a system will make sure that mistakes are avoided in Name/Pic type of information. A centralized database will collate and compare the info such as bio-metrics to weed out any duplicates and inconsistencies.

2. Banks/Govt organizations/Phone-companies/Driver’s-License etc key functions are asked to integrate with the NID system. Look how long it is taking for PAN-id to Bank-A/c integration to get an idea. Force the users to show the NID. Open NID counters in Each Bank/GovtOffice, and make sure that these NID Booths cross-check the info (especially bio-metrics) with local database before printing the card.

3. If a card is found to be fraudulent/duplicate/non-unique then the card number is deactivated and all bank-transaction/phone-connections become inactive immediately. This will force the user to go to cross check the info and get a new ID (in 1 hr). This process continues till the user gets a valid NID.

4. I have allocated Rs 10,000 cr per year for 10 years for this program in my shadow budget. National ID Program (100 croresx1000Rs for card/systems/infra) (10,000)

I expect at least 10-20% duplicate/fraud/incorrect entries in the first 5 years. As the system matures and is integrated with other key social-supply programs such as Civil-Supplies (Ration cards), Voting, Bank Loans, Farm Subsidies, Land/Asset registration, Bank Transactions, Telephone connections this number can be brought down to less than 1% within 10 years.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jun 2009 22:34

Now that we are on page 2 of the thread can we summarize the issues on pros and cons please?

IOW what are the advantages and the disadvantages and for BR what are the national security implications? How does this impact the economy?

Thanks, ramana

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 Jun 2009 06:02

Sachin, Nilekani did not elaborate on that.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 30 Jun 2009 07:40

If what DDM-TOI says is true, then is a bloody rip-off

============================

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 703794.cms

Citizen IDs to cost Rs 1.5 lakh crore

26 Jun 2009

With the central government announcing a panel to implement the programme of giving identity cards to all citizens of the country, it appears that this much hyped scheme is finally getting some traction. It is estimated that this gigantic and complex exercise will involve an expenditure of over Rs 1.5 lakh crore.

It will put India in the club of about 56 countries around the world, which have some form of national identity cards. These include most of continental Europe (not UK), China, Brazil, Japan, Iran, Israel and Indonesia.

The idea itself is not new, but in the past it had not received a clear centralized push. As a result, several pretenders emerged and vied with each other, creating confusion typical of India. There is the PAN card created by the tax department but now used for diverse financial transactions. Then there is the photo ID card issued by the Election Commission, primarily meant for voting.

Earlier, ration cards were the mainstay of identity proof, but lost their relevance as the ration system became restricted. Driving licenses are popularly used as ID but only a very small fraction of the country’s billion-plus citizens have them.

In 2003, the government decided to launch a pilot project for providing the Multipurpose National Identity Card (MNIC) to 31 lakh people in 12 states and one UT. This exercise was to give a taste of what is entailed in giving ID cards to citizens. The first card was delivered only in 2007 and it is still in progress.

In January this year, the apex court got involved, suggesting to that nation identity cards should be made mandatory for all citizens. This contributed to energizing the languishing program.

The first step in issuing ID cards is building a complete computerized record of all citizens above the age of 18. It needs to be computerized so that it is accessible and it can be updated constantly. The task is being done by the Registrar General of India (RGI) under the home ministry, because they have the requisite experience after all, the RGI carries out the census every decade. In fact, this database is going to be generated along with the next Census, slated for 2011. It will be called the National Population Register.

The technical challenge is to create a tamper-proof smart card, which can function in Indian conditions. A sophisticated software called SCOSTA will reportedly be used for creating the cards. The cards would contain as many as 16 pieces of personal information.

This information will be stored in micro-chips embedded in the card and it will be accessible only to authorized users, like police officials. Apart from carrying personal details like photo, age, address and fingerprints, the MNIC will contain a National Identity Number, which will be unique to the individual.

The other challenge is to computerize the civil registration system across the country so that all births and deaths are entered into the population register.

========================

There 114 cr commons in India, and if ID system is costing Rs 135,000 cr, then this means over Rs 1100 per common. Even with retina scan and finger prints, the National-ID system cant cost this much. With blood group having details of ALL factors (AB, +-, MN factors, K factor and other 15 such blood factors), the cost of Rs 1000 is a good deal. And if DNA data is included, then even Rs 3000 per common is a good deal. But AFAIK, there is no talk of having blood group details and DNA data. And there is no mention of retina scan either. Then why is the cost Rs 1100 per common?

As I always said, we commons MUST first demand DRAFTS of the proposals before we worship someone or praise a step. Just because an ITVT billionaire (whose company is famous for getting cheap land from Karnataka Govt and COBOL projects) from US giants, became project chief, people are going ga-ga without even seeing the blue print. And now DDM-ToI says that project would cost Rs 135,000 cr !! So pls hold your praise showers for now till we get some cost estimates.

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 30 Jun 2009 10:37

Rahul Mehta wrote:If what DDM-TOI says is true, then is a bloody rip-off

< snip >

There 114 cr commons in India, and if ID system is costing Rs 135,000 cr, then this means over Rs 1100 per common. Even with retina scan and finger prints, the National-ID system cant cost this much. With blood group having details of ALL factors (AB, +-, MN factors, K factor and other 15 such blood factors), the cost of Rs 1000 is a good deal. And if DNA data is included, then even Rs 3000 per common is a good deal. But AFAIK, there is no talk of having blood group details and DNA data. And there is no mention of retina scan either. Then why is the cost Rs 1100 per common?

As I always said, we commons MUST first demand DRAFTS of the proposals before we worship someone or praise a step. Just because an ITVT billionaire (whose company is famous for getting cheap land from Karnataka Govt and COBOL projects) from US giants, became project chief, people are going ga-ga without even seeing the blue print. And now DDM-ToI says that project would cost Rs 135,000 cr !! So pls hold your praise showers for now till we get some cost estimates.

Rahul Mehtaji,

While I cannot comment on this specific undertaking, Rs. 1000 per common might not be so far fetched especially with the quantum increase in price levels in India...

The reason I say this is because, moi's pater had implemented just such a project for a bank in Western part of India. The target population was around 2 lakhs. The project, very simply put, envisaged issuance of a 'smart card' to each of the bank customer. The card had an electronic chip inbuilt that captured all the vital information - Name, Address, Phone number etc... The unique card number was then associated with a computer database which contained all of the above information plus a photo to authenticate the customer.

The process that was adopted for this project was as follows:

Bank gave us the information about their customers in a specific database which could only be accessed by our IT manager.

> The city in which the target population resided was divided based on their 'Ward #'
> Each ward was assigned an agent based on a bidding process
> IT Manager printed out specific ward information in batches
> This Name, Add & Ph. # was then transferred to the agent
> The agent was also received specific forms that had to be filled out by the customer
> The agent had to go to the customer's place of residence
> There he would provide the form to the customer
> The id verification was done based on Ration Card / Shares of the Bank / License / Voter Card
> All this information was copied/captured by the agent
> The agent then brought the filled out form along with the proof of identity to the central office
> There it was entered into the main database by operators plus a Photo and the whole filled out form was scanned into electronic format
> Once a certain number of customers were entered into the database, a bank official along with our IT Manager would take the database to the bank's server where the data was uploaded
> The bank then cross checked and verified this information with their database to find any inconsistencies
> In the case where inconsistencies were detected, the customer was informed via a certified mail and had to personally come to the office and complete the formalities before receiving the 'smart card'.

This above is a concise explanation of the process, due to passage of time, I might have forgotten a few minor details but the above generally sticks to what we did.... This is around Mid 90's timeframe... If I remember correctly, at that time, the total cost per card was coming out to around Rs. 150 or so... and even after that the profit was just about Rs. 20 or so per card. The reason was the cost of setting up the infrastructure where for e.g - the main company server cost around Rs. 8 lakhs or so with SCSI HDD's (and we had 2 such servers) etc running Novell Netware or some such software, setting up around 30 terminals with individual scanners, cost of the 'smart cards' with chips (very similar to the chips in license card), cost of printing on those cards, paying the operators, paying the agent, the cost of printing and other overheads, paying the cost of bank 'babu's' who cross checked the information etc... I am missing many other costs, but I hope this gives you a general idea.. Hence prima facie, I do not think that the Rs. 1000 is so outrageous.. I am sure there are many people in the NID loop who will be skimming the money and that might be factored into the Rs. 1000 price.. But it does cost a lot of money to capture the information about 114 Crore 'resident's' of India where there might be more complex capture of information with many levels working in it to verify the information etc.. Hope this helps.

Sorry for a longish post !

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Jun 2009 14:20

I think there is very little official information about the aims of this project. As thesis advisors often ask "What is the problem you want to solve? Define the problem correctly before coming up with a solution!". Easy to say, but difficult in practice.

What problem is the National ID going to solve? This is the big question.

Is it one that tries to differentiate or identify a rightful legal citizen from that of an illegal Bangladeshi? If so, Nilekani is on record saying that he is not trying to go into that level of verification.
Is it one that is geared towards the villages that ensures proper accountability and tracking of government funds so that they reach the intended recipient? For example, it will hopefully do away with the problem of phantom schools with phantom children. If so, then its a different (but not at odds ) problem than the first one.
Is it to enable FinMin to more accurately catch tax evaders by using one identifier rather than PAM, MAN and the other sundry ones that we use for Demat , pensions etc? Again, separate problem
Is it to replace the passport?

All the above are differing and overlapping objectives that will entail different features on the card, the supporting infrastructure and costs. It would be helpful if one first states the objectives first formally.

BTW, note that problem #1 is/will NOT be solved by a National ID card as much as the popular belief is...

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 30 Jun 2009 15:28

Agree with Tanaji here. We are yet to get a kind of a policy document or a mandate as to what this ID Card is going to be used for. Or is that also some thing which Mr. Nilekani would spell out in the days to come?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 30 Jun 2009 16:07

>>>Agree with Tanaji here. We are yet to get a kind of a policy document or a mandate as to what this ID Card is going to be used for. Or is that also some thing which Mr. Nilekani would spell out in the days to come?

Boss, let's move our a$$ and get the card issued to every citizen..if not anything else, it will at least help in proving the identity of the individual. As of now, that appears to be the biggest challenge faced by the general populace.

We can have a number of documents to prove our identity - be it ration card, PAN card, Driving license, Electricity bill, Gas bill, phone bill etc., but many of them could be useless for a particular need. Let us take one by one.

Ration card - though I have the ration card, it is worthless for me ; the spelling is incorrect, though what is written in Tamil is correct. Difficult to get it corrected, though not impossible. The procedure is cumbersome. Meanwhile I have shifted residence also. I thought, let it be like that.

PAN Card - It was issued to me about seven years back. To my surprise, I found that a particular department did not accept it because, the 'original' document (PAN CARD) issued by the tax dept itself is a photocopy (laminated ofcourse!)

Driving Licence - I took the driving license from my native place and address is that of my parental home. So it is of not much value as address proof and for many other things like getting a mobile connection etc.

Phone bill - Some of the private banks and none of the Nationalised banks, Govt departments won't accept private service provider's phone bill as address proof or any other identity purpose. For this, you need to have a BSNL Connection.

Gas bill, Electricity bill - very limited use for identification purpose.

In addition to all above I have the Ex-Serivemen card also - which is a photo ID Card with my service number and resident address. While I was in service, it was enough to enter even high security areas. Now-a-days NOBODY would even look at it, however much you try to convince them. I get angry at times, but it is of no use arguing with 'civilians'

With so much of problems, I will be quite happy if the Govt issues that piece of plastic, AND INSTRUCTS EVERYBODY to accept it as identity proof.

IMO, more than the identity document, it is the lack of a common rule about what is to be accepted as identity proof, that puts the general public in great difficulty.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Jun 2009 19:27

^^^
FWIW

All those problems you mentioned can/will happen with National ID too. If the purpose of National ID is to have unique ID, then it is more useful to issue Passports for all citizens.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 01 Jul 2009 06:34

Tanaji wrote:What problem is the National ID going to solve? This is the big question.

1. Is it one that tries to differentiate or identify a rightful legal citizen from that of an illegal Bangladeshi? If so, Nilekani is on record saying that he is not trying to go into that level of verification.
.....

BTW, note that problem #1 is/will NOT be solved by a National ID card as much as the popular belief is...

National ID system can stop new coming BDites. Also, when DNA data is added, NID can be used to track dowb BDites with good amount of accuracy. Not because BDites have some unique genetic signature, but because DNA can establish relations. eg say it s proves that X is BDites. And then from DNA data, you can dig out close relatives of X and brand them as "prima facie" BDites too. Also, say a DNA data shows that person has no mother, no father and no brother and not even a cousin in India. Then such person is "prima facie" BDite. IOW, DNA data can be used to make a list of "prima facie" BDites.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 01 Jul 2009 06:52

Tanaji wrote:I think there is very little official information about the aims of this project. As thesis advisors often ask "What is the problem you want to solve? Define the problem correctly before coming up with a solution!". Easy to say, but difficult in practice.

What problem is the National ID going to solve? This is the big question.

Is it one that tries to differentiate or identify a rightful legal citizen from that of an illegal Bangladeshi? If so, Nilekani is on record saying that he is not trying to go into that level of verification.

Is it one that is geared towards the villages that ensures proper accountability and tracking of government funds so that they reach the intended recipient? For example, it will hopefully do away with the problem of phantom schools with phantom children. If so, then its a different (but not at odds ) problem than the first one.

Is it to enable FinMin to more accurately catch tax evaders by using one identifier rather than PAM, MAN and the other sundry ones that we use for Demat , pensions etc? Again, separate problem

Is it to replace the passport?
All the above are differing and overlapping objectives that will entail different features on the card, the supporting infrastructure and costs. It would be helpful if one first states the objectives first formally.

BTW, note that problem #1 is/will NOT be solved by a National ID card as much as the popular belief is...

perhaps it is none of the above but an attempt to put a crucial system, that was hitherto missing, in place. the cost of 1100/card is perhaps the cost of legacy. this is never going to get any cheaper or easier nor is it ever going to be fool proof at inception - we will also have to absorb some bad records - aka illegals. but if the system can guarantee that every new record added is genuine then it will help us in the long run.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Jul 2009 10:02

geeth wrote:We can have a number of documents to prove our identity - be it ration card, PAN card, Driving license, Electricity bill, Gas bill, phone bill etc., but many of them could be useless for a particular need. Let us take one by one.

Agreed, and is their some policy document which says that when NID comes into picture these can be replaced (as identity proofs) by the NID? Or else NID card would be just adding to the list of "identity proofs" which every citizen now has.

Boss, let's move our a$$ and get the card issued to every citizen..if not anything else, it will at least help in proving the identity of the individual.

Without having the full benefits of NID listed out, what benefit in moving ahead for the creation of another plastic ID card. It just adds on to the list of other identity cards available.

I feel we should wait for Mr.Nilekani to spell out a bit more details on the whole NID thing.
1. What problem it is going to resolve.
2. With the introduction of NID what are the systems/practises which would become obselete

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 01 Jul 2009 10:05

Guys .. we are having a big discussion about the mechanics of this project ... but I am still not able to understand how this will help the common citizen in the country ... I mean there's talk about how it will assist the PDS in ensuring that resources reach the needy ... this is surely a noble goal ... but does anybody know the specifics of how this is supposed to work and how the new ID Card will help in this ?

I am trying to understand the benefits it will bring to the common-man ...

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 01 Jul 2009 12:02

One question I have is why the project proposes to hand out smart cards at all. For most purposes, like taxes or benefits, a number that is quoted at the time of the transaction would suffice to authenticate the user. For transactions with higher security requirements like proving the identity of a suspect, the biometric can be captured again and compared against the database of stored biometrics.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 01 Jul 2009 18:14

National ID system can stop new coming BDites. Also, when DNA data is added, NID can be used to track dowb BDites with good amount of accuracy. Not because BDites have some unique genetic signature, but because DNA can establish relations. eg say it s proves that X is BDites. And then from DNA data, you can dig out close relatives of X and brand them as "prima facie" BDites too. Also, say a DNA data shows that person has no mother, no father and no brother and not even a cousin in India. Then such person is "prima facie" BDite. IOW, DNA data can be used to make a list of "prima facie" BDites.

RMji, must you ruin every thread with your wild suggestions?

Almost all the NID proposals in the world are limited to fingerprints or retinal scans. You are now proposing that we maintain a DNA database for all 110 crore people in the country. How many countries in the world have maintained a national DNA database? What are the costs involved in such an affair? Have you investigated how much it costs to do a DNA test? Are there enough medical labs in the country to test 110 crore people? On an average it takes 2 weeks in the West to complete a DNA test after the initial swab is taken. Do that math...
Add to this the fact that sibling tests have a 90% accuracy which is obviously unacceptable since out of every 100 tests, 10% may be in error, so you may end up deporting rightful citizens.

Why not at least have a modicum of thinking before you post?

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 01 Jul 2009 20:40

I think that all Income tax assessees and Govt employees should be asked to pay for the card. This way cost will be reduced and project will start off with a bang.

SK Mody · Post by **SK Mody** » 02 Jul 2009 00:52

Yes. NID can be implemented without fanfare. Fanfare is needed most, when Govt does NOT want to do something and want to convince the world that Govt is serious about it !!

Well said. This looks like that super-duper Kerala road development project which we have been hearing about for the past 8 years or so and which has not moved a single step. I'm sure the plan is being polished and perfected on some babu's computer and grand visions are being laid out. Instead of having a functional card which they have only in underdeveloped countries like Sri Lanka, there will be a continuous planning process. A generalized technological platform will be developed for the design of _all_ possible types of id cards which will incorporate the latest developments in cryptographic research. Papers will be written, conferences held with invitees from the world's top research centers - giving boor Yindians the chance to interact with top specialists in the field. Many resumes will be enhanced as a result of all the detailed work carried out - should all be very exciting!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 02 Jul 2009 03:55

At the end of the day, this system as any other, is a scheme to create Haves and Have-nots. Who exactly is targeted to be Have-nots? If the intent is to encompass and make everyone Haves, what purpose does it serve? Unless who the HaveNots are going to be can be conceived, this is another one of those government schemes, where the citizenry exists for the pleasure and growth of government, not other way round.

Is this about security; for example, BDs, about the porous nature of the border. But what is sauce for the gander has to be sauce for the goose. Security threat should be neutralized inside BD; as anyway it is stated to be porous. Fight has to be conducted where the source is. Trying to burden a billion citizens to sanitize a mosquito swamp displays lack of will to conduct real fight and find solutions, but more interested in Uttara kumara’s spiel. Cost effective and guaranteed results, versus no cap on cost with no real solution.

Welcome soviet style governance to snoop on fellow citizens, with a minister of cabinet rank presiding over it, no less.

The possible advantages
1)Allows inventory. Provides a measurement – statistical data points at micro level
2)Facilitates control of the individual by the State. Targetted actions (good/bad) at microlevel feasible. Reduces privacy and independence of the individual.
Good for the state. Power over individuals is a powerful weapon in the hands of the wielder.
3)Eliminates census - once implemented – if everyone is mandated to be accounted on arrival (birth) and departure (death), plus acquisition/loss of citizenship. Just dynamically, adjust to the existing list.
4)Helps in catching dumb illegals/terrorists. (ones with intelligence greater than vegetable will play within the system. Either subverting or buying through the system). Marginal increase in cost to the bad guys.
5)Earns brownie point - Perception of doing something about … (fill the blank with spin as needed)
6)Provides employment to people - employed in useless activity. Perfect pork barrel scheme.
7)Allows expansion of government. Dynamic creep to other sectors. Good for sarkari naukars in various capacities. Can deny, withhold, blackmail and perpetuate bribery based on existence/non-existence of this single ID card and its associated properties.
8. Allows bragging rights to be in league; with other developed countries where mechanistic approach to dealing with society is worshipped.
9)Can charge private operators to access this data, so business transactions can be eased.
10)The process can be outsourced as in printing of money, so kickbacks galore for vested interests.
11)Allows government to do it, because it can. How cool is that?

The disadvantages:
1)Lacks clear purpose in articulating; how is this system going to help differently than the existing mechanisms. No clear explanation how burdening 1 billion citizens to be part of the system, to screen a minisicule number would pay off.
2)Allows abuse of tax payer money. Useless, non-productive activity, snooping on fellow citizens. Money can be invested more wisely.
3)Exposes citizenry to complacency with regards to security. Makes it more vulnerable to breach of security, when a single ID, mere possession of which is perceived as a tool of prevention.
4)Extracts tax-payers money and time to spit on the tax-payer. Tax payer is made to go through the drill of visiting Sarkari Katcheris (cess-pit of corruption) with the hope the abuse is quick and over with, all in the name of benefits to the citizen.
5)Reduces individuals to a piece of paper. The identity and self-worth of individual will be tied to single piece of documentation. Mechanistic approach in dealing with society. For instance, mere presence of individual will be insufficient as to his/her birth. Birth of the individual is recognized only if certificate is produced. Expect sarkari naukars to interpret and act in the spirit and letter of law, if work can be avoided, more importantly if bribe can be extracted.
6)Allows harassment of the citizenry at various levels. Loss of choice for the individual to be or not to be part of this system, unlike passports.
7)Privacy compromised. Loss of data, not uncommon, will put the onus on the individual to rectify the mistake.
8. Lacks well defined scope of usage. Scope can be altered, at any time, scope creep avoidance not built in.
9)Makes people vulnerable. Allows people to be bumped off, by bad guys, to access this ID card, if it becomes the pivot point of any dealings of the individual with the state.
10)Extracts phenomenal cost to the state to prevent acts of terrorism, while only marginally increasing the cost to the criminals.
11)Lacks redressal mechanism in association with NID system. Overwhelmed judicial system ill equipped to provide speedy justice, remedy and compensations for contention between state and individual.
12)Allows politicos in government to use the info provided by data, to easily pit one group against other.
13)Bloats worthiness of NID. If this is accepted everywhere, then the ID will command a stature disproportionate to its verifiability.

All said and done why should a grandma living in Chennai, Assam or Bengalooru, West Bengal, go through this rigarmole. What exactly is the return on investment for this Grandma (never mind the spin about the extended benefits to her progeny. That will be pure obfuscation. As individual, since individuals are screened and accounted, how exactly is this going to benefit her).
Or
Why should a kid of 7 years age, be burdened with safeguarding her/his NID, so no one else misuses that. If it is meant for adults only, why not use election ID card.? If election cards did not reach all, then energy needs to be invested in completing that first.

If true, at an initial cost of Rs.1100 per individual, the cost is enormous spent purely on whim and spite. This money is better spent in providing libraries with computers connected to information highway at micro levels. The cost probably is going to be less, with significant returns. But we cannot have empowered and thinking citizenry? Do we? When pork barrel schemes can be used to keep the nation bare-foot, pregnant and ignorant.