Indian Army Discussion

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 29 Jun 2009 10:12

Sanku wrote:
nelson wrote:Something better can be thought out for managing such persons on a case to case basis than touting a blanket policy that is being followed now.
There is always an option for disabled war veteran to quote compassionate grounds and leave the armed forces. In fact all those who can show that their injuries have been in the line of duty (including the engineers who have a fuse blow up in their face) are entitled to suitable extra compensation.

The problem however is that such personnel have to forego their pension and disability benefits if they opt to leave before superannuation.
The additional compensation for disabled personnel, who continue in service after injury , is in terms war injury pension after they have left service (by superannuation).

The armed forces are in a dichotomous situation, wherein they are expected to have a lean and mean fighting machine but at the same time held responsible to support such injured personnel within the establishment, in order to maintain high morale. The present policy is inadequate/inappropriate in this scenario.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jun 2009 11:16

Victor wrote:Bhut (bhooth, as in ghost) Jolokia (chilli in Assamese), aka Naga Jolokia, is from Tezpur area of Assam where it is used sparingly even by locals. DRDO had taken charge of it a decade ago when the Scoville unit score measuring its hotness became known IIRC. Nice to know a practical use is finally on the table and will pay huge dividends by capturing rats alive if & when needed. The long R&D timeline may indicate a struggle to bring the effects down to acceptable levels, ie. mustard gas minus the horrible (and illegal) physical disfigurement. Another truly Indiagenius weapon .

Quote from the Telegraph

Bhut jolokia, the hottest chilli in the world, could become the army’s latest weapon with multiple uses.

They can be used in non-lethal hand grenades, as a food supplement or to drive away elephants.

The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) is working on the various uses of bhut jolokia.

Used as a food supplement, the world’s hottest chilli could help soldiers weather the high-altitude chill.

“The chilli could work miracles for soldiers on the icy heights by way of raising body temperature,” R.B. Srivastava, the Delhi-based director (life science) of the DRDO, said.

He said the chilli may permanently be included in the diet of the armed forces deputed at high altitudes.

The Gwalior-based laboratory of the DRDO is also working on a project to make hand grenades, which would act as an alternative to teargas, with bhut jolokia, he added.

“The Defence Research Laboratory under the DRDO in Gwalior is working on this project,” he added.

“We are also working on a project to use bhut jolokia to keep away elephants from our defence establishments in the Northeast,” Srivastava said, adding that the idea was given to the Defence Research Laboratory (DRL) by the Worldwide Funds for Animals (WWF).

“Elephants have become a threat to many army bases located near reserve forests and wildlife sanctuaries. Since the smell of Naga chilli keeps them away, a chilli paste coated on a rope on the boundary could be a solution to this problem,” he said.

Bhut jolokia’s hotness quotient — 1,001,304 heat units on the Scoville scale — makes it twice as fiery as the Red Savina, a Mexican variety that previously held the world record.

Quote wiki

Exploding Bullet: Similar to the incendiary bullet, this type of projectile is designed to explode upon hitting a hard surface, preferably the bone of the intended target.Not to be mistaken for cannon rounds or grenade with fuze devices, these bullets have only a cavity filled with a small amount of low explosive depending on the velocity and deformation upon impact to detonate.

Can the DRDO investigate such bullets filled with bhut jolokia that can be used for terrorist and anti naxal operations?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 29 Jun 2009 11:23

Military brass told to mind their language

.....A couple of seemingly unrelated issues need to be flagged here.
First, the governor of a state, particularly one as sensitive as Arunachal Pradesh really needs to follow certain rules, and they don't include tom-toming troop deployments. India has to do what she has to do, there's absolutely no need to create rhetorical ripples while doing it.

Second, the Indian government need to be a lot more open and realistic about China and our security perceptions about that country. It's absolutely no use if the government, particularly the foreign office, just pretends that China - or our problems with it - don't actually exist and are a figment of the feverish imagination of journalists. This has created a very funny situation where government keeps insisting that ties are "doing fine", while newspapers and TV channels continue the drumbeat of difficulties in relations. Its not surprising therefore that the military services decided it was time to call a spade a spade.

Third, is the glaring disconnect between our fighting brains and our diplomatic and strategic brains. The services have been kept out of the strategic discourse in this country for years, which is not only a shame but is probably why there is a certain "innocence" (you know, the kind that comes from being kept out) within the armed forces elite. Its a crying shame. The results of this have been disastrous......

RayC sir, could you kindly tell us why the disconnect between the MEA and the forces, and why we pretend all is well while none is well, even after 62?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2009 11:57

for the Assam valley, Nagas are supposed to be people of the frontier - armed, warlike, always ready for a fight, "unrefined" . the ahom kingdom had pretty bad terms with most of the naga tribes and sealed the border except for trades in rock salt, elephants and such.

so it happened anything which was hot/ferocious came prepended with the "naga word". apart from the bhoot jolokia, another example is the "naga tamul" (a variety of betelnut that is said to be stronger than the usual) , "naga kosu" (ferocious compared to the vanilla doodh and neel kosu...quite common in assamese food as ground & fried or burnt over a wood fire with a mix of onions, ginger, mashed kosu leaves & stems and small fish)

Colocasia leaves
http://tasteofassam.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -haak.html

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jun 2009 12:15

J&K: Solider killed in cross-LoC firing

...
Mohinder Singh of 8 Kumaon fell to a bullet fired from across the Line of Control (LoC) late Sunday, while another soldier had a narrow escape.

Army officials told IANS that a group of militants tried to sneak into the Indian side on Sunday evening and may have been given covering fire by the Pakistani army.

The Indian Army was assessing the situation and preparing the details to be communicated to the Pakistani side.

"In case the firing was from the Pakistani army then it can be termed as ceasefire violation," said an official. If that be the case then it would be the third case of ceasefire violation by Pakistan in this sector this year.
...

One of our soldiers get killed, and all we do is give the paki side a dossier? I hope these pakis get a kick in their teeth outside of media glare!

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 29 Jun 2009 12:25

^^^^ that would be just one person. Even with hundreds killed during 26/11, all we have done is send dossiers to the Pukes.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Jun 2009 23:23

But this is different - we could bump off a few Porkis and call it a "minor border skirmish" (unlike retaliatory strikes after 26/11). The IA wouldnt need political go ahead to open fire in reply. Maybe RayC sir can clarify how difficult/easy is it to dispatch a few to their 72 across the LOC.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 29 Jun 2009 23:59

we could bump off a few Porkis and call it a "minor border skirmish"

We are talking about men here, men with families back home.
Its not a video game, you "bump off" my men, i "bump off" your men kind of play.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jun 2009 00:08

now it looks like "you bump off my men, I sit around twiddling thumbs" kind of game !

realistically, if uncivilised scum like pakis get away with murder they will only repeat them.
if someone has to die it better be theirs than ours. why should we pay the price with the lives of our men(who do have families back home, as you pointed out) ?

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 30 Jun 2009 00:12

Wasn't it during the BJP's tenure that the Indian Army was bumping off whole sanghars in a defined area in retaliation to unprovoked firing?

Peace needs to be maintained - at our terms only.

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » 30 Jun 2009 00:20

I just cannot belive that any army however strong or weak can be quiet without responding to unprovoked firing.

Why are we keeping quiet, or if we are not, why is that not coming up in the media ?

Sandipan · Post by **Sandipan** » 30 Jun 2009 01:03

Its not that Indian army keeps quiet, I was seeing a programme of Saira Khan of The Apprentice fame visiting her village in POK. And on her way to her village she came across live fire and a whole village was shelled by Indian artillery. There was eye witness accounts of village being bombed to ground by Indian artillery with relentless shelling.

Indian army does retaliate, it is that we dont come accross such news too often through our media.

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 30 Jun 2009 03:02

Sandipan wrote:Its not that Indian army keeps quiet, I was seeing a programme of Saira Khan of The Apprentice fame visiting her village in POK. And on her way to her village she came across live fire and a whole village was shelled by Indian artillery. There was eye witness accounts of village being bombed to ground by Indian artillery with relentless shelling.

Indian army does retaliate, it is that we dont come accross such news too often through our media.

Sandipanji - I do believe that the IA is retaliating, but to believe that they levelled a whole village with artillery (unless the whole village was filled with naPakis downhillskiers) probably ranks up there with slitting the belly of a pregnant woman... IA doesn't behave like the genocidal TSPA... The reality might be that the TSPA would have been shelling their own village and that is actually quite believable.... IMHO

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Jun 2009 03:09

There were also reports earlier that the paki army would intentionally fire from villages and mosques, drawing retaliation fires there, and then claim that the Indian army was shelling civilians. Hiding behind civilians and killing their own civilians is par for the course for the paki army.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Jun 2009 05:45

Consensus evolving on Chief of Defence Staff

...
While details have to be worked out, the concept says that the post would be rotated amongst the three forces with the senior-most officer taking up the job first.

The Army is of the view that it should be given a longer tenure given the size of its force.

A proposal by the Army says that the post should be given in rotation once each to the Air Force and Navy and twice to the Army as it is the pre-dominant force in the country.
...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 Jun 2009 06:00

Not sure where to post this

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 74,00.html

some time back someone criticized our Army as not NATO standard

Here is one fabulous NATO std army doing its job

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Jun 2009 10:58

Sandipan,
The IA does not pulverise a whole village, no matter what programme you have observed or what was said.

Waste of ammunition and more so, waste of effort.

Pulverising a post of Pakistan is more worth the while!

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 30 Jun 2009 13:15

Sandipan wrote:Its not that Indian army keeps quiet, I was seeing a programme of Saira Khan of The Apprentice fame visiting her village in POK. And on her way to her village she came across live fire and a whole village was shelled by Indian artillery. There was eye witness accounts of village being bombed to ground by Indian artillery with relentless shelling.

Indian army does retaliate, it is that we dont come accross such news too often through our media.

Yes the Indian Army does that, and that too very conveniently for the Paki Camera Crews!
Such things need to be taken with a kilo of salt atleast. I would not put it beyond the capabilities of the Purelanders to stagemanage such an incident in order to once again highlight the Cashmere issue.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Jun 2009 19:30

there was another programme aired several years ago where a pak origin british woman went back to her roots, accompanied by a british sikh woman friend, and then both went to India. the point being to contrast the two experiences. there was a scene there too where the pak woman went to the LOC and conveniently there was shelling and firing "from India". The Sikh woman did not go, and apparently it was done clandestinely with secret contacts with the jehadis. (yes, sure, random british tv crew show up filming something sensitive and they make contact with secret jehadis!

and this is way before the current mayhem!!)

rather predictably, the two friends stopped being friends by the end of the programme, due to the massive differences in attitudes towards just about everything between the pakistani weird world and India. most telling was just the everyday stuff, the sikh woman was really mad at being letched and jeered at everywhere in pakistan (even though she was very modestly dressed in salwar kameez) and the complete freedom on the Indian side.

i think there have been plenty of travel documentaries where the grizzled traveller crosses from pak to india at wagah and then treats himself to a nice cold beer as the first thing to do!

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Jun 2009 21:15

RayC wrote:Sandipan,
The IA does not pulverise a whole village, no matter what programme you have observed or what was said.

Waste of ammunition and more so, waste of effort.

Pulverising a post of Pakistan is more worth the while!

Maybe that should be our Modus Operandi as a response to terror attacks:

a) Retaliatory air strikes on terror camps --> we dont have the political will

b) Clandestine terror within Pakistan --> limited capabilities of RAW

c) Destroy Paki posts across LOC. 3 Paki soldiers for each Indian killed or each time there is an infiltration --> we have the capability and don't need the political will

Maybe easier said than done - but option (c) looks the most do'able of the lot. And can be kept reasonably under wraps.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Jul 2009 01:49

RaviBg wrote:Consensus evolving on Chief of Defence Staff

...
While details have to be worked out, the concept says that the post would be rotated amongst the three forces with the senior-most officer taking up the job first.

The Army is of the view that it should be given a longer tenure given the size of its force.

A proposal by the Army says that the post should be given in rotation once each to the Air Force and Navy and twice to the Army as it is the pre-dominant force in the country.
...

There is always a joker in the pack to gum up the works.

Why squabble in public?

Squabbling Services is exactly what the babus want. Divide and rule.

They will further delay this already much delayed issue by citing lack of consensus.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 01 Jul 2009 07:00

Case of the dog that did not bark ? ..at the LOC
"As the jawans practise their skills, two Israeli tourists approach the officer at the base of the mountain, asking if they could also climb."
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10951

Wonder what these "tourists" are doing at the LOC?, how many tourists climb rocks where the army practices ?.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Jul 2009 07:46

Guddu wrote:Case of the dog that did not bark ? ..at the LOC
"As the jawans practise their skills, two Israeli tourists approach the officer at the base of the mountain, asking if they could also climb."
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10951

Wonder what these "tourists" are doing at the LOC?, how many tourists climb rocks where the army practices ?.

The Zoji La - Dras - Kargil - Nyemo - Leh road or NH1A is open to civilians and tourists.

The troops must have been practising close to the NH and these tourists may have sauntered across to the area.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 11:38

And you'll find Israeli tourists everywhere in India these days.

It is a sort of a mecca and tradition for the Israelis, who are fresh out of military conscriptions to replenish their souls in India. J&K and Goa seem to be the hot spots. Varanasi, strange as it may sound is for the more theologically inclined!

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 02 Jul 2009 23:07

Remember the news of artillery duels before the ceasefire along the LOC. There was this boast(and dont think it was an empty one) from the India side that for every 10 rounds the Paki's fired we retaliated with a 100. We didnt have WLR's at that time though.
Our artillery needs an urgent upgrade both in quality and numbers though. But sadly the ghost of bofors wont go away. They have been much larger scams after that but the bofors really hit the IA hard. The bofors turned out to be a pretty good gun to but we shot ourselves in the foot by not producing them locally even though we had paid for them all in the name of blacklisting the company.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Jul 2009 23:29

Remember the news of artillery duels before the ceasefire along the LOC. There was this boast(and dont think it was an empty one) from the India side that for every 10 rounds the Paki's fired we retaliated with a 100.

Can you give a link?

I don't think that it is a truism. But then I could be wrong!

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 03 Jul 2009 09:09

Well this was years back when the artillery duels were at their peak. It was one of those annynomous army officers being quoted in a newspaper article. Dont remember which though.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Jul 2009 02:11

Melting snows reveal bodies from Pakistan

Melting snows reveal bodies from Pakistan

Age Correspondent

Srinagar

July 3: At least six members of a group of infiltrating militants who "disappeared" soon after reportedly sneaking into the Indian side of the Line of Control in Gurez sector in March this year have been found buried in snow in Jammu and Kashmir.

The discovery of the bodies corroborates an earlier Army statement saying the militants were caught in an avalanche and had not escaped to relocate to other areas, as reported by a section of the media then.

Army officials here said six to eight infiltrators were buried by a huge avalanche. Their bodies could not be retrieved then due to the deep snow. But with the melting of the snows, the bodies of at least six of them have been found in the mountains.

Soldiers at an Army forward post caught sight of the corpses and informed their seniors earlier this week. The Army then launched an operation to trace the other bodies, during which six assault rifles were also found. "It has been confirmed that the terrorists were well equipped and clothed to infiltrate through the snow-laden ridge lines of north Kashmir," a defence spokesperson here said.

In March and April this year Gurez and neighbouring Kupwara witnessed a series of infiltrations bids by militants, most of which were foiled by the security forces.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Jul 2009 03:44

Army inducts DRDO-developed NBC recce vehicle

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 04 Jul 2009 21:09

http://www.stratpost.com/the-opposition-to-a-cds
The opposition to a CDS

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 05 Jul 2009 17:36

Army celebrates 10th year of recapture of Tiger Hill

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 06 Jul 2009 14:44

Defence to get 34% hike in budgetary allocation

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 06 Jul 2009 20:57

Indian Army to help de-mine Sri Lanka
Medical service is O.K. But,why de-mine by India

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 06 Jul 2009 21:02

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Indian Army to help de-mine Sri Lanka
Medical service is O.K. But,why de-mine by India

Civilians will be the main casualties otherwise. The LTTE had mined all its defences. It is a good move as it will allow the tamil civilians to return faster to their homes without losing life or limb.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 07 Jul 2009 04:11

Pranab give go ahead to 'one rank one pension' demand

Meeting a long-pending demand of over a crore defence veterans and 12 lakh serving jawans, the government substantially increased the pension of ex-servicemen.

The new, revised pension would be implemented beginning this month, Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee told the Lok Sabha while presenting the Budget for 2009-10.

In essence, the government has accepted the recommendation of the high-level committee headed by Cabinet Secretary K M Chandrasekhar that was set up in April to look into the defence pensioners' demands.

"Based on the recommendation of the committee headed by Cabinet Secretary on 'One Rank-One Pension' (OROP), the government has decided to substantially improve the pension of pre-January one, 2006 defence pensioners below officer rank and bring pre-October 10, 1997 pensioners on par with post- October 10, 1997 pensioners," Mukherjee said.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 07 Jul 2009 06:47

What a total BS Budget. Its all a hogwash. All this money for modernisation of Indian Military whilst almost every single seller-vendor is black listed or the RFP, RFI take so long that fiscal year is gone. Money recyles, giving plausible deniability to Ghandhivadi netas who only pay lip service to national security. What's up with CVC. Can someone tell them to take a chill pill and roll. Think about national security.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Jul 2009 07:00

The bureaucrats at play.

One rank one pension is for PBOR!

Divide and rule!

Also very socialist to keep the nose clean!

The reason is that there is an effort to consolidate the military pensioners into a political party and also a vote bank
Rashtriya Raksha Dal (National Defence Party), a political party in India, mainly based in Punjab. The party was founded on August 7, 1999, and works for the conditions of army veterans. The All India General Secretary of the party is Lt. Col. Adish Pal Singh Jhabal.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Raksha_Dal"
http://www.indiastudychannel.com/india/ ... 6-RRD.aspx

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jul 2009 08:11

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Indian Army to help de-mine Sri Lanka
Medical service is O.K. But,why de-mine by India

If theIndian Army does not get involved the Chinese and Pakistan armies will off their services.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Jul 2009 10:01

Force Veterans Sulk

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090707/j ... 205121.jsp

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Jul 2009 17:28

Gagan wrote:And you'll find Israeli tourists everywhere in India these days.

It is a sort of a mecca and tradition for the Israelis, who are fresh out of military conscriptions to replenish their souls in India. J&K and Goa seem to be the hot spots. Varanasi, strange as it may sound is for the more theologically inclined!

Manali, Dharamshala and Pushkar are the three main areas actually.