Indo-UK: News & Discussion

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Anujan
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

RajeshA wrote:In the end, one does not negotiate with them about reparations simply to get reparations, but to keep them on the defensive. Do you think, Dawood Mulli-in-Bund would be lecturing us on Kashmir, if at every meet, we were demanding reparations and compensations and charging them in public?
Let us not demand reparations. Let us demand a few UKstanis to be declared as war criminals. They should be stripped of their awards and commendations and a full accounting of their crimes should be published in public with a formal apology from the UK government.

Reginald Dyer and Jallianwala Bagh is a good place to start. Maybe "Sir" Richard Temple too can be visited*.

Remind me once agian ? why do the British think that the Nazis are evil ?

*For running an experiment to see how less a man can consume while doing hard labor. He cut rations in Madras presidency to half as much as the prisoners got in Buchenwald concentration camp, achieving a mortality rate of 94 percent and wiping one fourth of the population of Madras presidency.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by rkirankr »

pgbhat wrote:^^^^ :eek: :shock:
Absolute gold ... should be at the start of this thread.
Added later: Saw ArmenT's link below
also found this on google.
http://www.sacw.net/spip.php?page=impri ... rticle=869
The most insidious part of the BJP Manifesto’s preamble is a fake quote attributed to Thomas Babington Macaulay. According to Mr. Joshi: “India’s prosperity, its talents and the state of its high moral society can be best understood by what Thomas Babington Macaulay stated in his speech of February 02, 1835, in the British Parliament. ‘I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief, such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such high caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage…”
See N. Rajaram's reply in the same blog
Hello, this is N.S. Rajaram again. Please see the January-March 2008 issue of DIALOGUE, a public affairs magazine from New Delhi edited by B.B. Kumar. The issue focus is “India’s encounter with the West.” I draw attention in particular to the article: “British Raj in India: Myths and Relaities ” by B.B. Kumar. It has some interesting details.

There are other useful article by Lokesh Chandra, David Frawley, myself and others looking at different aspects of the encounter.

Although I have never used it, I am not prepared to dismiss the well-known Macaulay quote as spurious. I find it difficult to believe that a recent fabrication would gain such widespread acceptance in such a short time. It might be inaccurate but I doubt that a recent worker fabricated the whole thing.

Even if Macaulay was not in England at the time, someone else might have read his speech in the Parliament. Or it might have been scheduled on that day but delivered on a different day, but recorded as February 2. So it is worth tracing it to the source– even if it is spurious.

I would request Mr. Anirban Sen to use a more dignified tone in exchanges. It means nothing to me, for I don’t need a certificate from him, but reflects poorly on your blog.

Sincere regards,
N.S. Rajaram

Comment by N.S. Rajaram | June 24, 2008
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Neela »

RajeshA wrote:



Vsudhir ji,
Expressions of regret are by a few and momentary and fleeting. Such expressions have been taking place every once in a while from this corner or that, but that did not stop Dawood Mulli-in-Bund to come to India, treat our leadership like little schoolboys, and lecture us on Kashmir.

If we want to change this behavior of Britain, we have to keep it for ever on the defensive. That means one keeps on pounding the country with historical charges of murder, subjugation, theft, etc. and keep on forcing the head of the country down into the ground.

64 years after the WW II ended, the Germans are still taken to task for their historical wrongs, and they are taken to task by all the sundry, by the Jews, by the Poles, by the Russians, by the Americans, by the Brits, by the French, by the Dutch, etc. etc. The Germans still have to pay the most into the EU budget, all out of a sense of historical sins. They still have to treat the Jews with kid gloves and keep on paying compensations.

One just has to look at how PRC has treated Japan. Can the Japanese ever think of going to China and lecturing them on Taiwan, or on Tibet, or on human rights, or anything else?! Never! PRC has been able to cower down Japan for an eternity. Japan has been sending aid to PRC in the billions to win back Chinese favor and forgiveness. But the Chinese have decided that to not be too forgiving, because that keeps the pressure on Japan. Have we no self-esteem? Weren't the hardships of our grandparents and their parents and their parents not real? {Simply rhetorical, not directed against you vsudhir ji}

One could contest that Germany and Japan were defeated powers, and as such were far more accommodating of other's charges. After Iraq, Afghanistan and the Financial Crisis, Britain too is becoming a defeated power, and that is why now is the time to "Ek dhakka aur!".

Expressions of Regret a la Britain, is a momentary thing and would not change their behavior. They have to be kept under incessant accusations and on the defensive for ever. Reparations and compensation is only a tool, a means to an end.

In the end, one does not negotiate with them about reparations simply to get reparations, but to keep them on the defensive. Do you think, Dawood Mulli-in-Bund would be lecturing us on Kashmir, if at every meet, we were demanding reparations and compensations and charging them in public? The more the charges, the more vocal the charges, the more the British will be willing to see the world India's way, especially questions of Kashmir! Wouldn't you like to see the British owning up to their follies on the Indian Subcontinent? Follies like giving away Chittagong to Bangladesh, or like allowing NWFP to become part of Pakistan, or letting Pakistan invade Baluchistan?

The next step is for Britain to start questioning the integrity of Pakistan and Bangladesh! For this the British need to be treated like scoundrels and criminals!

No need to forget. No need to forgive. But let's deal with them nevertheless in a mature way, and force them to make strategic concessions from being Pakistan appeasers to following India's agenda.
Excellent post RajeshJi. It reminds me of every other article from the BBC on India which invariably contains the footnote "India is home to more than 1 billion people and 80% of its people live under $1 a day". The message you posted should be on every footnote on Britain.

Please remember the following:
- Millions and millions of Indians died due to the imposition of taxes by Britain. Land tax policies were brutal.
- The tax levied on Indian manufactured goods led to the destruction of Indian textiles - An industry that has always been the core of the Indian economy since the first traders came in from the West thousands of years back. We literally taught the world how to spin, weave AND TO DRESS. ( Indus valley - The bust of the bearded man dated 3000 BC (?) shows a patterned robe. Even dyeing was known then). Textiles has always been among the reasons why traders landed on the West coast
- The export of raw cotton, monopoly in India all led Britain to catapult into the Industrial revolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial ... _in_Europe.


One should imagine why all this happened. The Middle Ages lasted until the 16th century in Europe. It was a period of total decay in every aspect of their lives. Disease, death and all-prevailing dark damp. It was not necessity. It was desperation that led to thousands of sailors and voyages to find better lands and greener pastures. Blessed by the powerful Church, the Europeans went on in what can be suitably described as barbaric, colonizing Africa and Asia. Every land they landed in has a holocaust story.
After this, in a matter of a few hundred years, Europe is on the forefront again. I am not denying the scientific contributions but what I am saying is that without the knowledge and wealth of Asia, esp. India, it is hard to imagine Europe being where it is today.


It pleases me no end to see British Industry collapsing. The very lands they colonized are having a big stake in their industry. In a land of 40 million people, a 10% unemployment rate will be devastating and it is fast reaching that milestone! British Diary industry is in coma. Steel gone. Cars manufacturing is on the threshold. Textiles - what can I say...what was never theirs is also gone.


Britain will not show any remorse. They still think media is a good escape from all their follies and they can hide behind it.
But Karma is a bitch and will catch up.


Sorry for the rant but I am frothing now .....I am constantly reminded of that Baisakhi day in 1919 and what Prince Phillip had to say!

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1422/14220460.htm
"That's a bit exaggerated," Philip asserted, "it must include the wounded." Mukherjee, whose brother S.K. Mukherjee is the secretary of the Jallianwala Bagh National Memorial Trust, may already have been a little upset by the failure of the Queen and the Duke to record anything other than their signatures on the visitors' book. He did not, however, articulate his feelings, and merely asked Philip how he had come to this conclusion. "I was told about the killings by General Dyer's son," Mukherjee recalls the Duke as saying, "I'd met him while I was in the Navy."

That the solitary comment Prince Philip had to offer after his visit to Jallianwala Bagh was on this issue made clear that the living symbols of New Labour's imperial heritage were wholly unreconstructed. The Duke of Edinburgh was not willing to be humbled before a monument to the murderous brutality of British colonialism. The issue was not, contrary to some reportage, the number of people killed on that fateful Baisakhi day. The record ranged from 290, the initial government estimate, to 1,000, the figure broadly accepted by the Indian National Congress' independent inquiry (see separate story). Prince Philip's assertion may have been entirely accurate, but the fact that it was the only aspect of the massacre that exercised his imagination, caused offence. It suggested that the death of 379 people was in some way inadequate to appall the royal conscience, in the way the death of 2,000 people would have. Perhaps more important of all, the staggering arrogance that Prince Philip displayed in citing his source of information on the tragedy made clear the lack of integrity in the wreath-laying.
This was 1997.

Remorse from Britian ......fat chance!


Again sorry for the rant but we must not forget the events of last month and S.M Krishna's reply, to the events a few centuries back. Britain is a nation whose official policies continues to harm India directly.

Finally, I would urge readers to follow this site.

http://www.elginism.com/
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Project Gutenberg has recently digitized Macaulay's works. You may want to search through there to see if you can find the quote attributed to him above. I have not found that one, but I found something else that may be pertinent to the Indo-Pak issue.
THE GATES OF SOMNAUTH. (MARCH 9, 1843) A SPEECH DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE 9TH OF MARCH 1843

from

The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Miscellaneous Writings and Speeches of
Lord Macaulay, Vol. 4 (of 4), by Thomas Babington Macaulay
Thomas Babington Macaulay wrote:The duty of our Government is, as I said, to take no part in the disputes between Mahometans and idolaters. But, if our Government does take a part, there cannot be a doubt that Mahometanism is entitled to the preference.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by bart »

Anujan wrote:
RajeshA wrote:In the end, one does not negotiate with them about reparations simply to get reparations, but to keep them on the defensive. Do you think, Dawood Mulli-in-Bund would be lecturing us on Kashmir, if at every meet, we were demanding reparations and compensations and charging them in public?
Let us not demand reparations. Let us demand a few UKstanis to be declared as war criminals. They should be stripped of their awards and commendations and a full accounting of their crimes should be published in public with a formal apology from the UK government.

Reginald Dyer and Jallianwala Bagh is a good place to start. Maybe "Sir" Richard Temple too can be visited*.

Remind me once agian ? why do the British think that the Nazis are evil ?

*For running an experiment to see how less a man can consume while doing hard labor. He cut rations in Madras presidency to half as much as the prisoners got in Buchenwald concentration camp, achieving a mortality rate of 94 percent and wiping one fourth of the population of Madras presidency.

Good idea, but how about we first do stuff under our control.

For a start ban all mention or works of Charles Dickens.
“I wish I were a commander in chief in India. The first thing I would do to strike that Oriental Race with amazement… I should do my utmost to exterminate the race upon whom the stain of the late cruelties rested… with… merciful swiftness of execution, to blot it out of mankind and raze it off the face of the Earth“
Or remove the name of British Monarchs (George, Victoria, etc) from public locations? There are way more monuments named after British colonialists than after Bhagat Singh or Ashfaqullah Khan or Ramprasad Bismill. Most of the monuments have been renamed have been done for the wrong reasons, like politics/regionalism/parochialsm for eg. Shiv Sena naming every single landmark after Shivaji or DMK party naming everything after Annadurai, not for the reason of sterilizing the land from the symbols of colonial influence.

Or build a bigger and grander monument to soldiers who died fighting for the free Indian Republic rather than sticking with just India Gate which was originally a monument for Indian soldiers who died fighting for British causes. I mean no disrespect for India Gate and what it represents, I just want the monument for soldiers who made the supreme sacrifice for free India of their own free will to be an order of magnitude grander and built by free India when compared with the British monument. Even North Koreans and Chinese do better. If honoring pre-independence soldiers is on the agenda, why stop at the colonial army, why not go back in time and include the armies of Porus, Rajputs, Prithviraj Chauhan, Marathas, Cholas, Vijaynagar etc in that effort?

I am all for hounding the British for their holocaust, but there is a lot we can do at home.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

Wow.

Rajesh, Anujan and others, wonderful and doable suggestions. If the word gets out from here, it will have served some purpose.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

note the greek government's current uptick in pressure on the UK regarding the Elgin marbles, looted by Lord Elgin from the Parthenon in Athens. this has been a continuous theme in Anglo-Greek relations for decades, despite the EU, Mamma-Mia and holidays in the Sun

comment on the mcaulay note on favouring muslims - i believe at the time the british in india were going through their own evangelical jihadic talibanisation wave and not so secretly plotting to convert the entire population of India to christendom, and therefore logically they favoured 'people of the book' just as the muslims favoured them back. some historians would argue that 1857 was sparked more by a determination to resist christian jehad than the other causes that we know - i haven't bottomed this out yet to my satisfaction

this taliban wave seems to end towards the turn of the century and a more liberal mindset takes over in europe, possibly brought on by rising average prosperity and increasing education, but that takes a long time to make it out to the colonies
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Neela »

Lalmohan,
The debate on the Elgin marbles is really hotting up. If Britain yields, it will open the proverbial box.
Public opinion seems to be against keeping the Elgin marbles at home. I was watching this program on BBC and most of the people seem to agree to return them.
One of the panel members, a representative from the British Museum was very vocal and said that Britain was doing a service to the Greeks by keeping them here because of the facilities in Britain - the crowd jeered him.

Meanwhile, the British seem to invent new reasons to keep the loot.

Greeks Should Stop Wasting Energy Moaning About Elgin Marbles
Such places aren’t just repositories of colonial loot -- though they are that, we may as well admit -- they are an opportunity to see human culture on a global basis. At the British Museum, Greek sculpture can be compared and contrasted with Egyptian, Aztec, African and Middle Eastern art in a way it never could in Athens.
Yes a museum is quite the same as a zoo!! :roll:
As a very primitive argument, I could state that since travel has become so cheap, it makes sense to the displays in their "natural habitat".:).

The pounds that this loot-tourism generates must be really good!
Which is why I really second RajeshA's views!
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

RajeshA
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Neela ji,
thanks for your support on this issue.

The British derive their power from their relationships with some very dubious groups, whom they host in their own country, and the potential these groups have to cause trouble in their native country. This power is not all that different from what Pakistan wields, as a haven for terrorists. In Britain's case, they have a far bigger ability to mold public opinion through the media, so nobody has the ability to put make the blame stick on them. These terrorists are also presented as simply freedom fighters, or as political dissidents, etc. The British support the Pakistanis because on this issue of extortion and pressure politics both think alike. Both have deep fingers and tentacles in Sunni extremist politics.

The above would however not be sufficient. The British also like to piss on the deepest wounds and weakness a country may have. In our case, it is Kashmir. They like to be present themselves on a pedestal and play the judge in disputes, making sophisticated assertions of fair play, pleading friendship but always batting for their favorite side, the Pakistanis. The Indians get fooled by hints from the British, that the problem is not their support for the Pakistanis or Muslim appeasement, but our inability to present the facts properly. Next time we try even harder, in a court set up by them. No amount of terrorism rained down on India would even move them in the slightest. They will come forward with their homilies, and we will be expecting them to finally take the side of the victim, but they will again hurt us by suggesting that we are ourselves responsible for the terrorism, that we need to deal with root causes, with core issues.

Most of all, the British get their power from their hold over the financial markets, the banking system, etc. They get their power from having their fingers in every economic pie. That is why Iran and Russia irks them so much. These countries deny them a say in their local economies, and that is why the whole might of the media and public opinion needs to be brought against the Russians and the Iranians.

India has opted to buy peace with them on their terms. What India needs to do is to play divide and rule. We should continue to increase our economic relations with USA, but demote our political and economic relations with the British, or at least hint at degrading. The danger of losing such a huge emerging economy would be a hard blow on UK. India has a perfect foil, "We are a primitive nation and susceptible to emotional outbursts, and it is UK's job to appease us. Otherwise no deal". We should not be looking to cut off all relations with them, or to become their enemies or even adversaries. We should be aiming for a state of affairs, where there is always some tension because of historical wrongs committed against us, and the British are forced to make concessions to assuage our 'feelings'. But no matter how much they try, their 'success' in assuaging our 'hurt feelings' should be temporary, and we should fall back on the rhetoric of historical wrongs. India needs to increase the cost for the British to keep on trading with their old colony.

END OF RANT

What we could do:

1. Dissolve the Commonwealth. Promote NAM instead. Also make India-Africa, and India-Caribbean summit a regular affair.

2. Find new partners in EU, partners like the French, the Germans, the Spaniards, the Greek, the Irish, the East Europeans. Downgrade India-UK dialogue.

3. Never let anybody below the British PM to meet with the Indian PM.

4. Never take British politicians or British royalty around India to do Imperial Tourism, or even to besmirch the memories of those fallen in our battles against the British, like to Jallianwala Bagh!

5. No place in India should carry the name of any British royalty or British Viceroy or anybody below.

6. Never talk to the British about the Indian Subcontinent or our political problems with Pakistan. We don't want their sympathy. We don't want their understanding. We don't want their judgment. If they show their sympathy for Pakistan on Kashmir issue, hang another set of boulders of colonial sins around their necks, and downgrade relations with them, e.g. for not responding positively on the question of 'compensation' or return of historical artifacts. Send a UK diplomat packing.

7. If they step on our toes, never hesitate to send a British diplomat packing.

British loss of influence in India would make the Americans lose their trust in UK's worth, making UK slide even further down the power ladder.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

Unfortunately for Lord Macaulay,who would despiar if alive today o see how his once vast empire has shrunk,the wheel has turned full circle.Thanks to teachign us English,"his language",Indians now are the world leaders in IT and Britain has seen many of its crown jewels (like JLR) in Indian hands.The Indian diaspora has conquered many peaks in the global arna and are poised to conquer more.As Rajaji ocne famously said,"English is Saraswati's gift to India"!

PS:UK defence cuts wills ee all RN/RAF Harriers untimely retired.There is plenty of scops to pick a number of these up at bargain prices so that the depleting Sea Harrier numbers of the IN are halted.Earlier,the RN also retired its Sea harriers,which the In did not buy as their radars had been removed.The RAF Harriers aboard the RN's current carriers have seen excellent servcie in the Gulf wars.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

This is an unhappy topic. one which we never seem to get closure. Sadly Dr MMS did not help stuff by going and saying "raaan!" to the oxbridge muftis about brit rule.

If there was no Holocaust, what would the world have been talking about?
1) British genocide of millions of Indians and Africans for plunder.
2) A-bomb on the japanese civilians for generating terror on a global scale.
3) Book-driven Western fundamentalist ideology (communism) that killed 10s of millions of russians and east-asians

...in that order

Makes one think of how Yahudis were cynically used as a tool against Asians, Africans and lesser Europeans. "We killed millions of y'all, but look over there, them evil nazis were the monsters".

We should have a global monument for those who were killed by western influences. Make the most spectacular statues of queen victoria, eating the liver of an Indian, blood dripping from her jaws or a mural of Stalin being egged on by naked angels with faces of roosevelt and churchill, while he crushes millions of russians with his boots. Truman reading his scripture, while pressing the button etc.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

Good point about the fake neutrality posturing, RajeshA.

Here's a classic updated example of the $hitish feigning studied neuter-ality in south asian affairs using their media muscle. From the ekhanomist rag:

Indian-held Kashmir:Grim up north
A revolting crime has renewed protests against Indian rule
OUTSIDE Shakeel Ahmed Ahangar’s house in Shopian, an apple-growing hub in the Kashmir valley, mourners gather. Spying a foreign journalist, they yell “Azadi!” (“Freedom!”). The battle-cry of Kashmiri separatists makes an incongruous lament for Mr Ahmed’s pregnant wife and teenage sister, who were raped and murdered on May 29th. Yet it is the inevitable one. Six decades after India secured the richest portion of Kashmir, its Muslim inhabitants miss no chance to tell it to leave.
And yada yada.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Indian-held Kashmir:Grim up north
These English would be more convincing if their occupation troops would leave Ireland and other places.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Next to the pak, a failed state, the ukstan should be the biggest concern for the world. Hub of terror central which is ever ready to throw monkey wrench at progress by anyone else other than their minions. Stolen wealth can last only so long. It will be cautionary for the world 8) to keep a very close watch on a failing UKstan with all the nuclear arsenal and other hardware.

If predicitions of long term climate are true, then ukstanis will be needing new place to relocate all their stolen wealth, as the island will be jeopardy. In such a scenario, what would a failing state, which has lived on stolen fat, for too long is forced to make a honest living? Would it use scorched earth tactics, vaporizing millions or quietly go into begging mode or make token whinings to fade away?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Keshav »

Gerard wrote:
Indian-held Kashmir:Grim up north
These English would be more convincing if their occupation troops would leave Ireland and other places.
Indians don't need the British to tell them that all is not rosy in the Kashmir. Two wrongs don't make a right and it's not for sure whether the wife and daughter were indeed raped by Indian security personnel.

Just because the British are still screwing the Irish doesn't mean we have to do bad things to the Kashmiri's too (of what little we've done already).
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Airavat »

Keshav wrote:Just because the British are still screwing the Irish doesn't mean we have to do bad things to the Kashmiri's too (of what little we've done already).
Who's "we"?

The Shopian incident is not about "Indians" oppressing "Kashmiris". The accused Nazir Ahmed is a locally-recruited Kashmiri police constable. Such regrettable incidents happen elsewhere in India because some police personnel abuse their power and position over ordinary citizens.

Kashmiri criminals have done much worse to the Kashmiri Pandit community where rape was a common weapon, and such incidents were NEVER condemned by the Kashmiri populace. Similarly there are no protests when the terrorists routinely commit such acts on civilians. And even now the Kashmiris are guilty of oppressing the Dogras, Gujjars, and Ladakhis.

The perfidious albion has no business talking about "Indian-held" territory, because they were directly involved in the Pakistani invasion of J&K State in 1947-48, and in the massacres of Hindus and Sikhs in western Jammu. The volume of Indian blood shed by the British, whether directly or through acts of omission, covers the Partition massacres, the killing of civilians in Bombay during the Naval ratings mutiny, the machine-gunning of Quit India agitators with jets, the millions perished during the Bengal famine......the list goes on, and on, and on.

Of course the British did some good too, like ending The Great Anarchy, but we should never let them forget their genocidal acts.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Ameet »

On a lighter note........British actresses flock to Bollywood

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ywood.html
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Airavat wrote:
Who's "we"?
Some people are living in their cockoo land trying to imagine their world of reality.
This is the fence watcher
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

Acharya wrote:
Airavat wrote:
Who's "we"?
Some people are living in their cockoo land trying to imagine their world of reality.
This is the fence watcher
Trishankus. Ganga gaye Ganga Das , Jamna gaye Jamna Das, shall remain content being Das.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Islamic law challenges Western freedom: report
Islamic law should not be recognized under the United Kingdom’s arbitration laws because its principles are outdated and they contradict Western laws, a report by a British think-tank said on Monday
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

Image
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

A good discussion going on. Surprised a bit to see so many of the similar leaning.

Honestly, without going to war, we can ensure that :
(1) UK should be forced to return all the traceable art, archaeological artefacts, and treasures that have been looted from India - beginning with the "Indian" portion of the crown jewels.
(2) Formal apology and acknowledgement from the British head of state that genocides and looting were committed by crown government and forces.
(3) Formal acknowledgement of economic exploitation, including capital looted and deliberate destruction of independent economic structure.
(4) All traces, in public places and names of British individuals in India, deemed to have played destructive role for Indians. (Hot debates will ensue about controversial figures like say Curzon, Jones)
(5) Hold a National Remembrance Day for martyrs to the British rule. This can include Indians killed due to the Partition riots. This has to be strictly separate from Republic and Independence Day, when it is likely to be all hogged up by potential Anglophiles like a certain PM of India in his Oxford aceeptance speech.

But the final pinch and a bitter aftertaste that always fills my mouth after such a tirade, is that I had to write this in "English" as a common language for many Indians. Shouldn't that be one of the primary concerns for us - finding our own common language? Just my humble bit.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

The Elgin Marbles' home is here
The Greeks should erect a statue of Lord Elgin near the Parthenon to thank him for saving the Marbles
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

I think we should help Paki Occupied Britian and try to make them Arya . Karmic Wheels have taken downward turn and bad Karma wont go away even after Kalima . Serioulsy ,They sholuld return which do not belong to them .
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RamaY »

Acharya wrote:
Airavat wrote:
Who's "we"?
Some people are living in their cockoo land trying to imagine their world of reality.
This is the fence watcher
Na na...wolf in sheep's skin...
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

brihaspati wrote:But the final pinch and a bitter aftertaste that always fills my mouth after such a tirade, is that I had to write this in "English" as a common language for many Indians. Shouldn't that be one of the primary concerns for us - finding our own common language? Just my humble bit.
Honestly, brihaspati - this would be like opening a Pandora's box. I had this debate in our forum at office, and it led to lots of heated arguments. The language policy first introduced, subsequent rioting, the current status of languages etc. etc - all these were discussed. For every one this was an issue quite close to heart, and led to quite major fight. 8)
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

brihaspati wrote:But the final pinch and a bitter aftertaste that always fills my mouth after such a tirade, is that I had to write this in "English" as a common language for many Indians. Shouldn't that be one of the primary concerns for us - finding our own common language? Just my humble bit.
Does it matter whether you stab your enemy with your knife or his knife?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

We should see it in another angle:

English is fair game for some Indian re-engineering. The brits took so much of our stuff, twisted it to suit their avarice and crimes and then made claims of owning them (latest example: curry and chicken tikka). so let us do the same back to them. If we fight against Indians speaking english, we are succumbing to a subtle form of "divide and rule". so instead of fighting english language usage by Indians and dissipating our energies, we give it the bollywood treatment and extend it so much that queen's english is only spoken by a few racists in places like oz. Basically make us the center of english speaking world. So every time they hear our raspy mangling of english, they should cringe and curse Macauley's ass. But first we need to stop making fun amongst us of "Indian accents' etc and embrace it like the mullahs did to pingreji.

Plus as RajeshA pointed out, it is a convenient one way street for us - we can understand them, but they need to put a lot of effort. kind of like shooting at a thug who was dumb enough to stand under a street light.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

hnair wrote:English is fair game for some Indian re-engineering.
That is okay. But plans for substituiting English just to take a snub at the English, we may land up in further problems :lol:. Which we must try to avoid.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Raja Ram »

:lol: English, gentle readers, is Indian onlee. After all if we start treating it as just another corrupted derivative of Sanskrit, and treat it as such, we should be OK. By quirk of fate and history, it has emerged as the international language of choice. India can and will own the language in a few decades.

After all, with all the enlightened moderate emigration from their favorite colony of Pakistan will ensure that British English will be a rarity in a few years. There will be a movement to save english and maybe even a demand from the last remanants in that island to mother country India to keep alive their language quoting its historical links with Sanskrit. :twisted:

That day too shall come one day.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

some of the suggestions above certainly have merit and should be pursued - perhaps some sort of truth and reconciliation council exercise too would be helpful - except that the protagonists are long dead. certainly there is acknowledgement from very recent historical revisions (repeat very recent before eager readers want to remind me of gloss overs of the past) of the sins of the past and more acceptance that empire was not benign.

a feature of modern western historians is that they are willing to revist and rewrite their histories, and do spend the time and effort to do so. I discovered recently that the National Archives in Delhi have vast amounts of Urdu original papers dating from the 1857 events - all kinds of letters and memos and newspapers and government correspondence, yet no Indian historian or researcher has until recently been exploring these source materials and putting forward a view. compared with say recent updates of the history of the zulu wars, stalingrad, berlin, normandy and the pacific war which i have personally read and can speak of - where there is no holding back on the criticism of failures on either side. The zulu wars book in particular is a portrait of arrogance, deceit, corruption, incompetence, cowardice, manipulation, racism and general bullying by the british empire. and the book is written by a brit and not a south african.

In terms of loot: we will struggle with recovering items taken in battle - e.g. the spoils from the field of srirangapattam in windsor castle, but koh-i-noor should be lobbied for, despite it being a 'gift' albeit under duress. Shah Jahan's cup in the Victoria and Albert museum likewise.

as for the use of english - over the past 50 years, that language belongs to the americans and the world now follows american english. indian english will be a significant strain in years to come, but this language will remain dominant for some time, and we should make the most of it.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

English, a foreign-origin language, is the price we Indians pay for the common Indian nationhood. As history is witness, no Indian language could have filled that gap. Regional politics simply would not have allowed that.

So until our nation building has not reached a stage, where some Indian-origin Indian language, starts dominating the national discourse, we would have to treat English as a necessity, the kam-chalau stitch in our trousers until they can be repaired by an expert tailor (time and national consolidation).

In the mean time, we can master it, and beat the old masters with their own stick, like our kids do in Spelling-Bees in USA and the others in IT Services/KPO/BPO in India. Or we could consider it simply as a quick interface, a SCSI, a USB 2.0, for getting the data in the external hard discs into our desi khopri.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by bart »

English is absolutely needed in India as it is the one true common language. Everybody should be encouraged to learn it and it should be mandatory for primary school.

As others have pointed out, India can easily have more English speakers than the UK or the entire Anglo-Saxon world even, so we must usurp the language and take it over. In fact there is a lot of bullshit from the British and Indian dhimmi elites about how the British gifted us English and because of that we are progressing and getting call center jobs etc. The fact of the matter is, the English language owes it's importance to Indians, Americans and others, as without them, it would be just another language like Dutch or Swahili, limited to a small island in the North Sea with foul weather. English needs us, we have uses for it, and we should stop shying away from it and take control of it.

To start with, its really annoying to have to select either UK English or US English while installing a software. The government should appoint a body to codify something called Indian English, define its grammar rules, publish and Indian English standard dictionary, and by law all software/OS sold here should be mandated to have Indian English as an option.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

Lalmohan wrote: I discovered recently that the National Archives in Delhi have vast amounts of Urdu original papers dating from the 1857 events - all kinds of letters and memos and newspapers and government correspondence, yet no Indian historian or researcher has until recently been exploring these source materials and putting forward a view.
If I am not mistaken author of the "The Last Mogul", William Dalrymple had gone through these Urdu records, to get a more non-British view of the 1857 revolt/uprising.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

Sachin - you are absolutely right. And the information from those records is indeed fascinating. Dalyrimple's regret (which I share) is that no Indian scholars have bothered to research that archive properly (except for his collaborator)
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

x-post
KarthikSan wrote:Britain's Queen May Run Out of Money by 2012
Maintaining a monarchy is costly, as Britain found out when a newly published account revealed that Queen Elizabeth II will be out of pocket by 2012 unless the government boosts funds for the Royal household for the first time in 20 years.
Life obviously comes a full circle! Maybe she will now sell some of the precious treasures that her ancestors stole from India and our newly rich business class can buy them and gift them to museums for our future generations to enjoy.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

Brishaspati saar,

Could you kindly throw some light on why the urdu history of 1857 remains in neglect in Delhi? Since you are a product of indigenous education, perhaps you know of efforts by others like you in researching and detailing the subject, in regional languages maybe?

Added later:
Where from does the deep desi historical gyan of folks like airavat, India forum's Dhu and our own jupiter come from? A compilation of sources for public info would be a good step fwd, maybe. IMVVHO.

Sita Ram Goel's books on the lost temples of India met with several roadblocks, denial, accusations and bigotry. Sometimes one has to wonder if anything not sanctioned by the marxists running NCERT will be able to surface into the limelight in India only.

Meanwhile,

Sterling Crisis Looms as U.K. Unraveling Points to Budget Cuts (Bloomberg)

UK unraveling as part of a verbatim bloomberg title? Is this meme gonna go mainstream or what? Become part of conventional wisdom?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ not just Delhi, but also Kolkata museum and no doubt all the administrative centres around India and Pakistan. Dalrymple found considerable original urdu documents in Lahore as well relating to the last days of the Mughals, including a magnificient portrait of Bahadur Shah Zafar. He writes of sitting at a desk 10 feet from the grave of Anarkali reading original records in Lahore which awes him. Anyway, we should start with our own. Another point is our woeful neglect of ancient monuments. An Italian friend complained to me once of being dissapointed on his India-darshan of the newness of 'ancient' monuments, say compared to Rome's ruins. Things appear to be improving, but we have allowed much to fall into decay and dissappear before we've understood their importance or relevance.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Avinash R »

Some good news. Atleast a start has been made and looted property which has religious significance is being returned.

Guru Gobind Singh's plume brought back

Amritsar, Jul 1 (UNI) The ''Kalgi'' (plume) of tenth Sikh Guru Gobind Singh was brought back to Punjab after 160 years from England.

The plume was brought here yesterday by a special plane by Punjab Deputy Inspector General of Police Harpreet Singh who was instrumental in bringing it from London.

The plume was received by Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee President Avtar Singh Makkar and SGPC members at the airport here last evening. Later it was taken to the Golden Temple as per Sikh rituals and kept at the Akal Takht.

The SGPC had been consistently demanding that this prized possession be handed over to Sikhs.

The plume was taken away by Maharaja Ranjit Singh from Mughals after defeating them. Later it came into the hands of Britons when Lord Dalhousie annexed Punjab after the Maharaja's death.

Lord Dalhousie took the plume to England and it remained with his family for a long time. The plume was also seen at Albert Museum in London.

The DIG, who had done a lot of research on the plume, said he had taken possession of the ''Kalgi'' from a family in England after a great persuation. He, however, did not disclose the name of family.
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