Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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Samay
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

Aditya_V wrote:rkirankr -> As per the english translation of Bhagvatam I have read

1 Brahma's day Kalpa has 1000 divyayugas

1 Divyayuga is made up of 1,728,000 years Kryta(satya) yuga, 1,296,000 years Treta Yuga, 864,000 years Dvapura Yuga, :eek: 432,000 years Kali Yuga.

1 Brahma's day has 14 Manus, Varaha and Narasimha avatar happenned in Svyambuva manu's time. Each Manu rule is approxumately 71 DivyaYugas which is also the life of Devas.

Present Indra is Purandhara. Rama and Krishna avatar happenned in the current Divya Yuga for whic the Manu is Vaivasa Manu, 7th Manu 26th Divya Yuga.

Kakli Avatar will come at the end of this Kali yuga(age where quarrel is promininent) which has about 426,000 years to go. :eek:

Kali is the presiding deity of this yuga whose principle residences include where there is excessive gold, illicit relationships, meat eating, gambling and intoxication.

Brahma as far as I know, his first 50 years are over and is in his 2nd half of life which in Human terms is about 411 trillion years
I dont think that this answer is all about or even half about what we know about kali... we need to know more because it is what we are facing today and in future and somehow ancient texts have a clue about it. Therefore I beg that we focus on kali from ancient texts and other legitimate sources rather focussing more on what has already happened
Don't know about how much Brahmaji has to live, but as far as I know , this earth won't be a suitable place for human habitat after 426000 yrs,. :((
May be it is human error to have wrong info about the span of kaliyuga :?: (,the maths of calculating kalpa,yugas is another thing)
I propose that its almost on its peak or beyond.
also there are some contradictory theories about 'kali', he may be she !
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by BajKhedawal »

Samay wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:rkirankr -> As per the english translation of Bhagvatam I have read

1 Brahma's day Kalpa has 1000 divyayugas

1 Divyayuga is made up of 1,728,000 years Kryta(satya) yuga, 1,296,000 years Treta Yuga, 864,000 years Dvapura Yuga, :eek: 432,000 years Kali Yuga.

1 Brahma's day has 14 Manus, Varaha and Narasimha avatar happenned in Svyambuva manu's time. Each Manu rule is approxumately 71 DivyaYugas which is also the life of Devas.

Present Indra is Purandhara. Rama and Krishna avatar happenned in the current Divya Yuga for whic the Manu is Vaivasa Manu, 7th Manu 26th Divya Yuga.

Kakli Avatar will come at the end of this Kali yuga(age where quarrel is promininent) which has about 426,000 years to go. :eek:

Kali is the presiding deity of this yuga whose principle residences include where there is excessive gold, illicit relationships, meat eating, gambling and intoxication.

Brahma as far as I know, his first 50 years are over and is in his 2nd half of life which in Human terms is about 411 trillion years
I dont think that this answer is all about or even half about what we know about kali... we need to know more because it is what we are facing today and in future and somehow ancient texts have a clue about it. Therefore I beg that we focus on kali from ancient texts and other legitimate sources rather focussing more on what has already happened
Don't know about how much Brahmaji has to live, but as far as I know , this earth won't be a suitable place for human habitat after 426000 yrs,. :((
May be it is human error to have wrong info about the span of kaliyuga :?: (,the maths of calculating kalpa,yugas is another thing)
I propose that its almost on its peak or beyond.
also there are some contradictory theories about 'kali', he may be she !
Diyar TimeKeeperJi,

Aditya is backing his information with a source and exact numbers. Can you please elaborate as to what you base your following statements on?
I dont think that this answer is all about or even half about what we know about kali.....
And
May be it is human error to have wrong info about the span of kaliyuga
And arrived at this conclusion:
I propose that its almost on its peak or beyond.
Thanks!
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

Dear friends,
Might sound blasphemous.But do you have accept every statement of Bhagavatha as absolute truth.The Puranas contradict themselves.Also Puranas differ from Itihaasas on particular episodes.'Sri Suka' himelf says that the aim of the Purana is to inculcate Bhakthi in Sri Hari.The narratives/cosmology need not be taken as absolutely true.That would be against the spirit of Vedanta.Bhagavatha is Bhakthi+Jnana according to Sri Ramakrishna Parahamsa.

IMVHO
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Blashphemy is so non Dharmic. You are right one shouldn't take it as Gospel but as guidelines and use ones understanding(jnana).
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by putnanja »

Shruti ( vedas) are absolute, but smritis( puranas etc) is not. The beauty of hinduism is that the vedas can be interpreted in many ways ( all streams advaitha, dwaita and vishistadvaita derive from vedas), but there should be sound analysis :). The puranas are more like guidelines. For resolving any ambiguity, one should go to vedas and not to puranas.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

[quote="BajKhedawal"]]

diyar sir, I am not contradicting what Aditya or anyone else said, or that he was wrong,. ,
please be patient and try to understand what I was looking for.....
Just saying that the information on kali and its kaliyuga is very less and needs to be known more that what is already known or is history.
It is not indicting on anyone but to the whole information on it,
Threfore I am stressing again that about kali and its kaliyuga is what is more important to discover from sacred texts, pertaining to the fact that it is what we have to face and therefore very important to be known....
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by pgbhat »

Viswamitra’s role
Excerpt
Viswamitra gave us the Gayatri mantra, and there is a close relationship between the Ramayana and the Gayatri mantra. There are 24 letters in the Gayatri, and 24,000 slokas in the Ramayana. There is one letter of the Gayatri for every 1,000 verses of the Ramayana. The first letter of the Gayatri is the same as the first letter of the first 1,000 Ramayana verses. The second letter of the Gayatri is the same as the first letter of the second 1,000 verses, and so on. The Gayatri mantra may, therefore, be considered the essence of the Ramayana. The object of veneration in the mantra is Narayana, and the hero of the Ramayana is Narayana too.

Rama, in the humility He displays before Viswamitra, shows what one’s conduct should be in the presence of an Acharya. Having killed Tataka, Rama asks Viswamitra humbly what the sage wants Him to do next. Viswamitra is so moved by Rama’s humility that he sheds copious tears. It is Viswamitra who takes Rama to Mithila, and brings about the marriage of Sita and Rama, and the sage leaves after this. By bringing about the marriage, he also shows the importance of the Divya-Dampati concept. Thus Viswamitra is the one who helps take the story of Rama forward to its natural conclusion.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by rkirankr »

krishnapremi wrote:Dear friends,
Might sound blasphemous.But do you have accept every statement of Bhagavatha as absolute truth.The Puranas contradict themselves.Also Puranas differ from Itihaasas on particular episodes.'Sri Suka' himelf says that the aim of the Purana is to inculcate Bhakthi in Sri Hari.The narratives/cosmology need not be taken as absolutely true.That would be against the spirit of Vedanta.Bhagavatha is Bhakthi+Jnana according to Sri Ramakrishna Parahamsa.

IMVHO
No you are not blasphemous. Many puranas do appear contradictory. Also the vedas have not been changed but puranas unfortunately has been changed. Many people have added things which were not there in the first place. Not now even in Madhvacharya's time (around 800 years ago)he had to go around the country and after determining what is authentic , he wrote his "Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya". Though Iam not sure how he did this , but it seems he went around the country on foot discussed and debated with various scholars , referred many texts and finally came to that conclusion.

So the mist covering up true knowledge is what will happen in Kaliyuga. It is upon individuals to strive and find the proper and true knowledge :) . Ok Ok forgive me for starting a pravachan here. I will end here
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by rkirankr »

Samay wrote:
BajKhedawal wrote:]

diyar sir, I am not contradicting what Aditya or anyone else said, or that he was wrong,. ,
please be patient and try to understand what I was looking for.....
Just saying that the information on kali and its kaliyuga is very less and needs to be known more that what is already known or is history.
It is not indicting on anyone but to the whole information on it,
Threfore I am stressing again that about kali and its kaliyuga is what is more important to discover from sacred texts, pertaining to the fact that it is what we have to face and therefore very important to be known....
Samay sir,
Few points I know(they are not exact quotes)
1. Money/gold/wealth will determine the status of a person and not knowledge or learning unlike previous yugas
2. As earning money will override everything else, all moral values , dharma will be forsaken to find shortcuts for money
3.Wrong knowledge about Brahman will be spread. This will land people in confusion resulting in giving up of dharma
Many more are there regarding disintegration of family and rise of immorality etc.
We are still not at the peak because there are still dharmic people around. Still there seems to be a sense of fair play, morality present.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

Aditya_V wrote:Kakli Avatar will come at the end of this Kali yuga(age where quarrel is promininent) which has about 426,000 years to go.
Aditya_V, all, apart from the above usually agreed on cosmological pattern, there was a discussion that there is a yet smaller Cycle of Yuga's. This understanding comes from trying to give "historical" dates to Puranic events. For example, now we know that Mahabharata war was at 3000 BCE (or 3052), and the flood theory can possibly be linked to the end of the last ice age.

In this light some scholars have postulated and interpreted a smaller yuga cycle running within a larger one (quite possible since even the above explanation talks of at least two sets of cycles)
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

With my limited knowledge, I am not aware of it. But definately given the last 5000 years, there will be lot changes, ups and downs. Me I am an Iyengar who follows Srivaishnavism. However, some of my friends in ISKON, who follow Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, tell that he predicted a golden age which will lasts 10,000 years where Dharma will flourish in all villages in the world. Dont know
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

^^^ There is such discussion on the net. But I havent been able to find the original paper/discussion of smaller sub-cycle.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

correction
rkirankr wrote: We are still not at the peak because there are still dharmic people around,but weak and rare.
...

Still there seems to be a sense of fair play, morality present. only to the point of self benefit
If we are not at the peak then very close to it, and it wont take 420000 yrs or not even 100 yrs to reach there, maybe this happens in a decade or two !
I guess the rate demonization has increased and will be sooner than what Vedic maths suggests .
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by shaardula »

one of the seminal contributions of india is linguistics.

i enjoyed this article in out look a lot. though it is a tad to skinner-ish for my taste.
Dreaming In Hindi

Having miraculously survived a serious illness and at an impasse in her career, an American magazine editor spontaneously decides to spend a year learning Hindi in Udaipur. She later interviews top linguistics experts to understand what learning a second language does to the brain...

KATHERINE RUSSELL RICH

The whole year in India, I was never confused, though often, for days, I thought I was. "Vidhu-ji," I asked the teacher with the angular face, remembering to attach the "ji," an honorific that could also mean yes or what? -- point of bafflement right there. "Vidhu," I repeated, promptly forgetting to. "How do I say ‘I'm confused'?"

"Main bhram mein hoon," he said: "I am in bhram," and for the rest of the year, I used that sentence more than any other.

"Vidhu-ji! Wait! I am in bhram," I'd say, flapping my hand, interrupting Grammar, Dictation, till he must have wished I'd yank myself out of it, must have regretted the day he ever told me.

I was in bhram, off and on, at the school and beyond: when I'd try to ask a shopkeeper in Hindi if he had this thing in blue, while he stared at me with his mouth half open, as if he were watching a trick. When India later on became like an opiated dream; when the poet Nand-ji bent my senses using words; when I sat and watched the deaf school boys flash language on their hands -- all those times, too. And in bhram, but a dark, pernicious kind, when soon after I arrived, the world was exploded; when months after that, India went up in flames; when people by the hundreds then were slaughtered.

Many times throughout that year, I was in full-press brahm, in nonstop confusion, or so I thought. I wasn't till I returned to the States that I learned the exact meaning of the word. Illusion. The whole year in India, I'd been in illusion.

***

Hindi films were unendurable -- horrible honking songs, bleary cinematic clichés -- till something clicked and I became a convert. Punch for punch, I saw, you couldn't beat them for high drama. In one we'd watched, there was an illicit pregnancy, a hinted-at abortion, a suicide, a wedding, and repeated shooting of a groom on horseback, all before the opening credits. "The film demonstrates what Shakespeare could have done had he had access to automatic rifles,"I wrote, or some facsimile thereof, in the movie journal we had to keep.

***

In any new language, you discover missing words, as revealing as the ones that exist. In Hindi, I soon learned, you couldn't say "appointment" or "minute" or "second," except with the English loan versions. In Udaipur, where only 50 percent of the homes had phones then, you didn't need to. "If a people have no word for something, either it does not matter to them or it matters too much to talk about," the sociologist Edgar Z. Friedenberg said, and here appointments didn't matter. People stopped by. "They'll come to your house at six-thirty in the morning. Once I came back from dinner to find a friend sitting in the living room reading a magazine," Renee told me.

Each missing word was a shock to discover, one thing more that had become a figment of my imagination. For if you can't express something to anyone around you, doesn't it exist only in your mind? Each missing word was a loss, a piece of the old world falling away. I began taking note of all the fragments that had vanished: "handsome," "paint," the verb "to wonder," the verb "to own." It was now literally impossible to own anything. In Hindi, new shoes, bread, your car could only be "in your direction": ke pas. I loved the construction's nod to impermanence till I used it so often, it became just a figure of speech. And one perhaps best left unexamined, though Helaena did from time to time: In India, there's no female orgasm, not to speak of."Orgasm" applied only to men. "Interested" was not a word. There weren't separate terms for "marriage" and "wedding." Your shaadi was your wedding and your marriage, a small distinction, but in the early days of my marriage to Hindi, I was acutely aware of what was missing. "Privacy" most of all.

Once, on contracting a bug, I hailed a rickshaw to take me to the doctor's. The driver was uncertain of the address, so he waved over a pedestrian, who looked at the slip of paper, looked at me, leaned into the back. Was it my head? the man wanted to know. Just a slight fever, I answered. What about my throat, did that hurt? No, that was fine, I replied. Had I taken anything for it? he inquired. I gave a quick nod yes. Allopathic or naturopathic? he asked. "Mujhe jaana hai,"" I said, which loosely translates: "I know this is a silly idea, but I was thinking we could leave some questions for the doctor."

"There's no word for ‘privacy' in any of the Indian languages," we'd been told during orientation, though I surely would have figured that out pretty fast on my own. A month into moving here, I'd begun to suspect that the whole town belonged to the Central Intelligence caste. "Madam, you are living in Sector Eleven?" a rickshaw driver asked. "My friend said he took you there from the bank two weeks ago." "Madam, who was that man who walked you home last night?" the candy shop owner inquired. I had to think, then remembered -- just Swami-ji. "He is my teacher," I said with an extreme annoyance that went unnoticed. The guy was too busy nodding, as if calculating implications.

"There are three things you can't hide -- happiness, a cough, and love," a Hindi proverb goes, but I think the list got truncated in the retelling. In Udaipur, in any Indian town, the list could be amended to include where you are going in this heat, how much you paid for that lamp, why you were wearing a fancy sari two nights ago, whether you've put on weight. The notion of off-limits is alien. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that here, as Indologist Diana L. Eck writes, "the ‘individual' as we think of it in the West does not exist. A person thinks of himself or herself not as a singular entity, but rather as part of a larger interdependent whole, in which parts mirror one another in an infinite, intricate pattern." Or maybe it is because, as a friend said, "in India we share everything, even privacy."

Eventually, I'd come to like it when a cybercafe wala would boot up the computer and automatically log me on to my server. I'd grow accustomed to strangers on the street giving me updates on my appearance: "I am thinking your skin is looking dry?" a man I'd never seen before said, as I was waiting at a corner to cross the street. "You have not been applying oil?" Though I continued to draw some lines, as on the evening I came home to find the Jains debating how much money I had in the bank. "No, you misunderstand," Dad 2 said when I refused to answer. "We don't want to take your money.

We just really, really, really want to know," he said, as all ten family members nodded emphatically, in complete unison.

***

Much farther out along the spidery web of time, long gone from the Jains' now, I begin a list of words missing from English: Leelaa: the acts of a deity performed for pleasure. Vidya: translated as "knowledge," but which a friend explained as "having characteristics of knowledge but not itself knowledge.It's symbolic of God's world. A person who knows vidya knows everything." And advait: roughly, non-duality; and aanand: broadly, joy or bliss; and then I toss the paper away. Departure's looming. I can't bear to see, spelled out in black and white, what will become unspeakable once I cross back. Transcendence: that's what I'm going to have to lose.

***

The rickshaw guy who drops me off scolds me when I thank him: "You should say shukriya." I'm momentarily confused. Dhanyavaad, what I'd said, is perfectly fine in every "Speak Hindi" book, but then I realize: he's Muslim. I'd used the word from the Sanskrit. He's insisting on the Arabic-based one. All year, every time I give thanks, I end up putting someone off.

***

"In Sanskrit, they had sight, taste, touch, smell, hearing -- oh, yes," Nand said as the afternoon waned, carrying on his examination of the ancients' ten senses. Once the whirling particles began to slow, a pale focus was restored to the mind. Sanskrit speakers had the same five we do, he said, called collectively the jnanendriya, the agents of perception. But perhaps the path to sensuality was twice as wide then, as Sanskrit speakers had five senses more -- the karmendriya, the agents of action. These were grasping, walking, excretion, sexual reproduction, and one more so obvious that it's astonishing to think we haven't made it a sixth. For if the senses are the means by which we take in the world, then this one, speech, has to be the ultimate. Consider: In one language, you have five. In another, you have twice as many to speak of. Speech is so powerful, it can double the senses. Now that my own have been altered, I'm beginning to understand how interconnected all the senses are, all five, or ten. Change one, and the others are transformed with it. Change your speech -- the word for "fine," say -- and your sense of vision may be altered, too.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

A collection of links on Kalidasa and his works

1) Kalidas His Life and Works
Samasyaapuurtii
by Sameer Mahajan (sameer@cc.gatech.edu)
raamaabhishheke jalamaaharantyaaH
hastaachchyuto hemaghaTo yuvatyaaH .
sopaana maargeNa karoti shabdaM
ThaaThaM ThaThaM ThaM ThaThaThaM Tha ThaM ThaaH ..


Once King Bhoj lying on his bed saw a young beautiful girl on her way to fetch water. But as she reached the stairway she stumbled and dropped the vessel. The King listened to the noise made by the vessel and it gave him an idea. The next day he called his courtiers and gave the puzzle to solve ``ThaaThaM ThaThaM ThaM ThaThaThaM Tha ThaM Thaa.h''

None was able to solve it. Kalidas, when asked, demanded two days of time or the solution. He observed Bhoj's daily schedule minutely for those two days. The observation provided him the insight into the solution and he gave the above mentioned answer. The meaning is quite straightforward.
My father used to quote" Sarschandrika, Dawalm dadhi!" when asked by Raja Bhoja as to what he would like for dinner, as another example of the above form.

2) Poetry Archive on Kalidasa

3) 10 poems by Kalidasa from Poem Hunter.com

4) Wiki article has examples of his descriptive powers

Wiki article on Kalidasa
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Anujan »

ramana wrote: Samasyaapuurtii
by Sameer Mahajan (sameer@cc.gatech.edu)
raamaabhishheke jalamaaharantyaaH
hastaachchyuto hemaghaTo yuvatyaaH .
sopaana maargeNa karoti shabdaM
ThaaThaM ThaThaM ThaM ThaThaThaM Tha ThaM ThaaH ..
Ah ! The great Kalidasa !

For rakshaks who dont know Sanskrit, Kalidasa says that during Rama's coronation, a young woman who has a metal water pot in her hand, sees the handsomeness of Lord Rama, is awe struck. The metal pot slips from her hands, rolls over the steps and makes the noise ThaaThaM ThaThaM ThaM ThaThaThaM Tha ThaM ThaaH ...

There is also another famous verse by Kalidasa. The King asks him to write a poem that *ends* in Ka Kha Ga Gha. Kalidasa composes a verse
Kaathvam Bala ? Kaanchana maala. Kasya puthri? Kanakala taaya. Haste kim they ? Thaalipathram. Kavarekha Ka Kha ga gha"
Or Kalidasa recounts how he came across a young girl and asked her "who are you child" ? The girl said "Kaanchana maala". Kalidasa asks "Whose daughter are you ?" the girl says "Kanakala taaya". Kalidasa then asks "What do you have in your hand" the girl replies "My notebook I am carrying to school" and Kalidasa asks "What have you written in it" for which the girl replies "Ka Kha Ga Gha"

Also legend has it that Kalidasa was dumb, got married and his wife was erudite and insulted him. Kalidasa leaves his house, becomes erudite and comes back. His wife asks him "Asthi Kashchit Wagvisheshaha" (Have you learnt any special skills of erudition). Kalidasa takes the sentence, and composes 3 great epics with the 3 words of the sentence - "Asthi" - Kumarasambhavam, "Kashchit" - Meghadutam, and "Wag" - Raghuvamsham as a fitting reply !

The best exchange that I like though is between Sri Harsha and a poet. Sri Harsha had been nursed by Saraswati herself when he was a child, so had literary erudition far beyond what mortals could understand. He wrote his epic on the life of Nala and Damayanti that nobody could understand. So he was advised to dumb down a little bit and come back and recompose it. The prescription for dumbing down includes Getting married, staying in his father-in-law's place, eating heavy meals in the afternoon and immediately after that sleeping under the "Avarakkai" creeper (southie vegetable which looks like a beans but is flat and broad). Sri Harsha diligently follows this, and is resting under the "Avarakkai" creeper when a poet chances upon him and says

"Sri Harsha Kim Karoshi" (what is sri harsha doing ? While alliterating the Ka-Ka and Sha-Sha sound). Sri Harsha replies
"Ishu Mashaishum Moosha Mushe" (I am trying to dumb down by resting under the avarakkai creeper. Alliterating the ma sound thrice and sha sound four times). That shuts up the poet :P
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Keshav »

Manasvi wrote:were there more than one kalidas ?
As with any prolific writer (such as Shakespeare), there will be controversies surrounding the large number of great works composed in such a short time. As far as the modern citizen is concerned, I don't think there's any reason to doubt Shakespeare, Homer, or Adikavya.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

X-post...
Jul 06, 2009

trend: learning sanskrit

Wax Sanskritic

Urban young are rediscovering the lure of the classical language

RACHNA BISHT-RAWAT
http://www.outlookindia.com/fullprint.a ... +(F)&sid=1
Back To The Classic

* There's a big revival of interest in Sanskrit, especially among the urban young
* The thousands enrolling for Sanskrit classes this year include young techies, MBAs, civil servants, students of history and philosophy, as well as those interested in ayurveda or yoga
* They are attracted by Sanskrit's highly logical grammatical structure; the access it gives them to classics and texts on ayurveda, yoga; and the guidance on ethics, leadership and strategy in texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Arthashastra;
* The fact that Sanskrit is a 'scoring subject' in CBSE, UPSC exams has also fuelled interest

***
"Bhagini, shighram, shighram gachchami," mutters someone, giving me a gentle nudge from behind. Translated, that means: move faster, sister. I've been told I'm slow before, but never in Sanskrit. The guy getting late for class, whose way I'm blocking, is tall, with an apologetic smile, a shaven head, a choti, and a forehead smeared with tilak. The rest of him is hip young Gen X Indian—cool T-shirt, stylish bracelet and frayed-edge jeans that end at his bare feet. Ashish Kuliyal, 18, is a BA in English from DAV College, Rishikesh, and is at Delhi's Samvadshala Residential Centre for Teaching Sanskrit to brush up his spoken Sanskrit. "I want to complete my BEd and teach Sanskrit," he explains, after his class. "And I would like to speak to my students in Sanskrit, since it is ridiculous to teach one language via another."

There are others like him. Bangalore-based Sanskrit enthusiast Kokila Narayan, 27, works for an IT company. Weekends find her in spaghetti tops and capris, enjoying a movie or a vodka at the pub. Hard to believe that she speaks Sanskrit. But she does. "I started learning shlokas with a group of friends. What had me hooked was the perfect grammar and the science behind the language," she says. Narayan is preparing for the civil service exam, for which Sanskrit is among the subjects she has chosen.

Then there is Bharath Lakshminarayan, 24, who works with a consultancy firm in Bangalore. Every week, he takes time out of his busy schedule to drive down to a friend's place in Malleshwaram, where a group reads out chapters from Shringeri Math textbooks, and discusses Sanskrit classics like Kalidasa'sShakuntala. "I started learning Sanskrit in school because it was a scoring subject. But now, I'm drawn to it by the fascinating literature it offers," he says.

As many as 30,000 people have enrolled for countrywide classes that are starting this July under the aegis of the Gita Shiksha Kendra, to help people know the Gita better, through Sanskrit. And 60 per cent of these are in the 18-28 age group. At the Delhi Samvadshala, students from 37 countries come down in winters to learn spoken Sanskrit. And in 2008, 2,000 Delhiites enrolled for spoken Sanskrit crash courses that were held across the city. Again, 60 per cent were in the 18 to 28 age group.

These statistics back up the claim of many Sanskrit institutions that young people are rediscovering Sanskrit. "Yes, we're going back to our roots," smiles Krishna Shastry, who, along with a group of like-minded people, started the Sanskrita Sambhashanam (Speak Sanskrit) movement in 1981. Just seven students joined the first course, held in Jayanagar, Bangalore. Obviously, a few stereotypes had to be broken. "Over the years, Sanskrit has been considered difficult, boring and irrelevant in a modern world. So we started with evolving a new, more interesting style of teaching," he says.This included teaching Sanskrit directly (without using another language) and creating an atmosphere where students were first taught words and sentences they could use in daily life.

The movement began gathering momentum slowly. Since 1981, 70 lakh-plus people have learnt to speak Sanskrit. Many of them are from metro cities like Delhi, Chennai and Bangalore. The current interest, according to Shastry, is fuelled by the worldwide fascination with yoga, Vedanta, ayurveda and chanting shlokas, together with the trend among management gurus to quote from the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads, for guidance about ethics in corporate life, leadership qualities and team-building. It helps, too, that Sanskrit is a "scoring subject" in upsc exams. Modern-day students of Sanskrit include doctors, software professionals and MBA students and faculty, apart from students of history and philosophy. B. Mahadevan, professor and dean, IIM-Bangalore, and ayurveda practitioner Dr Robert Svobada from Texas are just two unlikely people who have learnt to speak Sanskrit.

Back at the Delhi Samvadshala, Kuliyal readily translates Gabbar Singh's "kitne aadmi the" into Sanskrit, with a booming "kati gana asa". Just as quickly, he switches to a meek "sardara, do janau staha" just to emphasise that one can have fun in Sanskrit too. On the net, there is a Sanskrit learning site, translating popular Shahrukh Khan film songs like "Tum paas aye, aur muskuraye" into Sanskrit: "Twam samipamagatam, ani mandsmitam". Though Sanskrit pandits may not necessarily approve of this frivolous use of what is called Devbhasha, the teachers with Samskritam Bharati are indulgent because it helps draw young people into their fold. Teachers like Pune-based Manjushri Rahalkar, 35, are encouraging youngsters not to judge Sanskrit by the classes they used to hate in school. S. Deopujari, who is in charge of Samskritam Bharati projects all over India, is simplifying grammar to make speaking easier for beginners. Homemaker and Sanskrit enthusiast Padmavati, an Andhra native living in Delhi, teaches 8-13-year-olds to speak Sanskrit via the medium of games and plays at Ganesh Mandir in Delhi's Sarojini Nagar.

In the 2001 census, a mere 48,400 people have listed Sanskrit as their mother tongue. But by the time the next census is completed, the numbers may well have doubled or trebled, to include hip young urban professionals who think in English, feed on KFC fried chicken and compare the revival of Sanskrit in India to that of Hebrew in Israel. Easy to understand why they are fascinated with this ancient language that promises to take them back to their roots and shastras. Amen to that. Or, maybe the word to use here would be Tathastu!
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Rahul M »

Keshav wrote:[ As far as the modern citizen is concerned, I don't think there's any reason to doubt Shakespeare, Homer, or Adikavya.
shouldn't that be adikavi ?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Rahul M wrote:
Keshav wrote:[ As far as the modern citizen is concerned, I don't think there's any reason to doubt Shakespeare, Homer, or Adikavya.
shouldn't that be adikavi ?
AFAIK

Valmiki (who wrote Ramayana) is the Adikavi (first poet), because all the veda knowledge is vangmaya (from ear to ear..) and not written.

Kalidasa took words from Ramayana such as "Raghu Vamsa", "Abhijnana Sakuntalam", and wrote his kavyas.

Comparing them with
Homer (Lived ca. 8th century BC )
William Shakespeare (baptised 26 April 1564 – 23 April 1616)
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Rahul M »

Sanku wrote:
rkirankr wrote: At the moment we are still in the beginning and have to wait at atleast for 4 lakh+ years. So no help now :((
There is some ambiguity in what I have read about the Yuga cycle, I mean the basic cosmic cycle of Bramha's day and everything is all right and fairly straightforward and is almost exactly the same as assumed ages of universe and everything.

However the cycles themselves are subdivided, and there are schools of thought which say that the Saty yug cycle etc also refer to sub cycles with the main cycles.

I have been looking for documentation on this, a paper I believe was presented few years back in a Delhi symposium too "The Chaturayuga cycle and cosmic age" but I cant seem to find it online anywhere.

Would appreciate if any one has any gyan on this.
sanku ji, this might be of interest. (art 2.3)
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/arti ... onomy.html

although chances are you have already read it.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

Image
This queer rendition, largely dominated by folk elements, much in the fashion of a fairy tale, represents contrarily a very serious kind of myth, which various Puranas assert in great unanimity. It depicts Kalki, the tenth incarnation of Vishnu, that is, the last of his Dasavatara yet to take place. Some theologians believe that Kalki has already incarnated, but the version sounds to be wrong. With the incarnation of Kalki the present Kaliyuga would end. The age of the Kaliyuga, as estimated in the Mahabharata and other texts, is 4,32,000 years of which barely 5000 years have so far passed. Thus, this tenth incarnation is yet far off. The concept of the incarnation of Kalki is a pure Vaishnavite assertion of Manu's social order of four varnas and a revival of Brahmanism, something which majority of Indians may not now approve.

The Mahabharata Vana Parva, Agni Purana, Padma Purana, Brahma Purana, Brahmavaivarta Purana, Harivansha Purana, Brahmanda Purana, Bhagavata Purana, Vishnudarmottara Purana and several other ancient Brahmanical texts come out with brief but unanimous details of Kalki, comprising the tenth or the eleventh incarnation of Vishnu. Kalki is by and large a prediction, however, quite clear in its vision and in its fictional elaboration.

Acclaimedly, towards the end of Kaliyuga, when righteousness turns into unrighteousness, light into darkness, good into evil, virtues into vices, believers into non-believing profanes, community of man into thieves and evil doers and the faith in God is lost and the Vedas are misinterpreted to serve adharma, Kalki would be born in the house of Vishnuyashas, a Brahmin and the priest of Yajnavalkya, at the village Shambhala. Some texts seem to suggest that Kalki would be born to Vishnuyashas as his son but the others claim that Kalki would be only the other name of Vishnuyashas. This Brahmin, the Dharma manifest, would create arms and soldiers by his will and himself carry a long sword and destroy the wicked malechchh, the low-caste people responsible for adulterating Dharma and breaking social order. He would restore the social order comprising of four varnas, and the four ashramas and all rituals and religions canons. For the fulfillment of his errand gods would give him a horse capable of swift speed in the sky as well as on the earth. Given by devas, or gods, the horse would be known as Devadatta, or the one given by gods.

The artist has largely adhered to this same Puranic elaboration. For delineating him as the last of the Dasavatara the artist has packed in his figure several features of Vishnu's previous incarnations. He has the same body complexion as Vishnu but a different body build, more like a mighty wrestler, such as only Balarama, amongst his incarnations, had. He is wearing a warrior like helmet but with peacock crest of Krishna crowning it. He has on his waist the long sword, as Puranas prescribe with his figure, but in his hands he is holding a bow and arrow, the characteristic attributes of Rama. As compared to his projected role in the fable, he has a shorter stature, something close to Vishnu's Vamanavatara. The armour, which he is putting on, has a fish like look with some sort of resemblance to his Matsyavatara. A well clad and bejeweled deva, with a Vaishnavite tilaka on his forehead and hence of the Vaishnava line, has brought him the horse Devadatta. With both its forelegs folded like an army personnel, the horse seems to salute its new master. The horse obviously has an unearthly bearing and with its wings an unearthly look. Except a partially visible saptaparni tree, the background is plain in opaque golden tint. The wide brownish red border, red feet of horse, features of the two figures, typically folded sash on the waist of the Deva and formal character of the horse have striking resemblance with the medieval miniature art style of Raghogarh in Central India.

This description by Prof. P.C. Jain and Dr Daljeet. Prof. Jain specializes on the aesthetics of ancient Indian literature. Dr Daljeet is the chief curator of the Visual Arts Gallery at the National Museum of India, New Delhi. They have both collaborated on numerous books on Indian art and culture.
http://ww-iii.tripod.com/hindu.htm
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

Rahul M wrote: sanku ji, this might be of interest. (art 2.3)
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/arti ... onomy.html

although chances are you have already read it.
I indeed have sir, Elst's book on AIT was one of my first readings on non Thaparian schools.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Prem »

Just curious, how many will recognize Kalki if he came with celestial, star war kind of weapons . Avatars have strange evolutionary connotation/step/relation with life . The next Avatar have to being upon the new dimention in human existence, make humanity transcend physical limitations and truly become spiritual living beings.

Then if this happen, what will be da pupose of whole Srishti? :eek:
Last edited by Prem on 07 Jul 2009 01:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

Prem wrote:Just curious, how many will recognize Kalki if he came with celestial, star war kind of weapons . Avatars have strange evolutionary connotation/step/relation with life . The next Avatar have to being upon the new dimention in human existence, make humanity transcend physical limitations and truly become spiritual living beings.

Then if this happen, what will be pupose of whole Srishti? :eek:
It is always mentioned in texts that some high level intellectuals know when and where the Lord comes and they do know how they have to play their roles,.
Take for example ,India had never got so many great leaders in previous two thousand years but in 1857-1947 era to play their pivotal roles, all set to do a specific job, isn't it interesting?
Imagine what type of people will be there to assist Lord Kalki !!
Then if this happen, what will be purpose of whole Srishti?
To get ready for next yuga as soon as the first one" satyuga" arrives ..as the cycle has to continue..
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

So PBUH riding Burraq was a copy of Kalki avtar?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Prem »

ramana wrote:So PBUH riding Burraq was a copy of Kalki avtar?
The whole darn gibbrish is copy of various religious thoughts known to Arabs that time. Even Allah sign is twisted from Aum . When asked to comment on PBUH, Swami Vivekananda kept quite for a while ( Shows what he opined about Burraq rider's alleged goodness and status)
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Prem, this is not a religion forum, why do you need to compare both the texts? I dont see why we should bother to see what is the source of anther man's religion.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

IGCNA page on lectures and seminars:

Lecture Series

and

Downloads of e-books
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Interesting series of posts on Kalki. "Kalki" took my recent interest when researching time cycles. The Yuga cycles should perhaps not be taken literally. Look at the ratios, they have some obvious mathematical relations.

More accurately,

309,173,760,000,000 year equals 100 years of Brahma which represents a lifetime of Brahma equals a lifetime of the Universe. The Universe is dissolved 36,000 times, after which everything is withdrawn into Shiva. After this a new universe is born.

8,640,000,000 years: one day and night of Brahma.
4,320,000,000 years: one day of Brahma
4,320,000 years sidereal years: Mahayuga
1,728,000 years, Krita / Satya Yuga
1,296,000 the Treta Yuga
864,000 the Dvapara Yuga
432,000 years, Kali Yuga


60^3 = 216,000 years
Kali (2x60^3)= 432,000 years
Dvapara (4x60^3) =864,000 years
Treta (6x60^3) = 1,296,000 years
Krita (8x60^3) =1,728,000 years

The theory of subcycles comes from a an old astrological principle. Vimshottari antar-Dasha (and pratyantar) is subdivided in proportion to the mahadashas. By this principle, we can have a proportional subdivision of the yugas - like Kali yuga - Krita antaryuga etc.

The disproportion in the cycles could simply be an estimate of the relatively slow growth of "civilization" after a "new" start, and its acceleration with time. The criticisms could simply refer to the vashyakar's bias of his time against the so-called evils of urbanization/civilization.

Regarding Kalki, there are lots of "rationalization" attempts. Some Islamic attempt at appropriating Kalki is already there. Some interpret Muhammad himself and some claim about "Imam Mehdi".I find it slightly hilarious that there are several rival claims of the "Kalki" already appearing on earth. There is even claims of a female "Kalki" (that will be a first of that gender with the exception of the fisrt few beginning with the protoplasmic to the kurma, as far as I know of the dashavatar - and vimshavatar lists). In any case most Shaivas do not subscribe to "avataran/descent". My personal point is however that Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are all the same and who is "vishwanatha" is also the "jagannatha". So even "Shiva" may "descent".

It would be interesting to get feedback about any researches on "Kalki". Here are weblinks people may find interesting.

http://ww-iii.tripod.com/hindu.htm An example of rationalization
http://www.scribd.com/doc/939132/Birth- ... mingchrist - connects Kalki with Nostradamus's prophecies
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/kalki_the_ ... of_God.htm - needs no summary!
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by paramu »

Keep in mind that when somebody addresses Hindu texts as Brahminical document, and refers to lower castes as mlecchas, he is a pinko. Take his material with sacks of salt.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Brihaspati wrote

My personal point is however that Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are all the same and who is "vishwanatha" is also the "jagannatha".
This what is known as Advaitha, where generally Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Ganesha are all considered the same who emerge from Bramhan.

I guess we should cleraly divide Hinduism into respective categories to get clarity as to what the respective postions are.

1) Advaitham-> Most indians Gurus follow this where everthing emerges from Brahman,i.e Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are the same. No concept of a permenant heaven. Follow all 18 puranas and Vedas

2) Shaivites -> Accept Shiva as the supreme. Dont know any more

3) Shatites -> Accept Skati,Kali, Durga as the supreme. Dont know any more.

4) Tantric -> Dont know anything about this except that thier followers built Khajarao temple and P-Sec crowd loves this sect

5) Vaishnava-> Belive Narayana and Laxmi is supreme, Belive in Jivatma and Paramatma concept, Vaikuntam Permenant heaven is the ultimate destination for the Soul. Follow what is described as 6 Satvic puranas and Vedas. Knowledge should be properly learned from a learned guru and not by mere speculation by reading texts and books.

I think the belief in Avataras is more for groups 1 and 5 and the others in groups 2-4 may not subsribe to same concept of time.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

Aditya_V wrote:
Brihaspati wrote

My personal point is however that Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are all the same and who is "vishwanatha" is also the "jagannatha".
This what is known as Advaitha, where generally Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Ganesha are all considered the same who emerge from Bramhan.

I guess we should cleraly divide Hinduism into respective categories to get clarity as to what the respective postions are.

1) Advaitham-> Most indians Gurus follow this where everthing emerges from Brahman,i.e Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are the same. No concept of a permenant heaven. Follow all 18 puranas and Vedas

2) Shaivites -> Accept Shiva as the supreme. Dont know any more

3) Shatites -> Accept Skati,Kali, Durga as the supreme. Dont know any more.

4) Tantric -> Dont know anything about this except that thier followers built Khajarao temple and P-Sec crowd loves this sect

5) Vaishnava-> Belive Narayana and Laxmi is supreme, Belive in Jivatma and Paramatma concept, Vaikuntam Permenant heaven is the ultimate destination for the Soul. Follow what is described as 6 Satvic puranas and Vedas. Knowledge should be properly learned from a learned guru and not by mere speculation by reading texts and books.

I think the belief in Avataras is more for groups 1 and 5 and the others in groups 2-4 may not subsribe to same concept of time.
This is just a small part of big picture, that is Bhaarat.

Astika philosophies of Ancient India

The ideologies are divided into two categories.

1. Aastika - Those who accept the authority of Vedas
2. Naastika - Those who refuse to accept authority of Vedas

Belief in god is not mandatory. There are Theist philosophies (Ishwar-Vaad) and Atheist philosophies (Nirishwar Vaad) in both categories.

1. Astika and Atheist - Saamkhya, Poorva Mimamsa, Nyaya, Vaisheshika
2. Astika and vaguely Theist - Yoga
3. Aastika and staunchly Theist - Vedanta, Uttara Mimamsa

Vedanta is further divided into three major sub-categories

a. Advaita (non-duality - Sarvam Khalu idam Brahmam - Everything that exists is Brahman)
b. Vishishta-advaita (special non-duality)
c. Dvaita (Duality - Ishwara and his creation are separate)

Brahma Satyam jagat Mithya

The schools like Vaishnava, Shaiva, Ganapatya, Bhakti etc fall under Dvaita Vedanta.

4. Naastika and Atheist - Bauddha, Jaina, Charvaka, Ajivika
5. Naastika and Theist - Sikh pantha

Then there are schools of Tantra which broadly lays between theism and atheism. The Vajrayana Bauddha Tantra Maarga is primarily atheist, while Aastika Tantra (Vaam-maarga) is theist.

All these philosophies make up the conglomerate of Dhaarmic traditions.

Propagation of Dharmic memes in India

Clustering of Dharmic traditions

Propagation of Dharmic memes and its impact of concept of Bhaarat
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

I did not want to go into the "subdivisions" and "subhierarchies" within the Dharmic. If really needed, I would clearlys tate my positiona s that of one who finds "dialectics" false and a result of stressing too much on apparent realities which in turn are again constructed realities. Since I do not subscribe to logical systems in which an entity or expression is "both A and not A" where A is an attribute, my position perhaps coincides with the "advaitha" position. But this prehaps does not belong to this thread.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

During Pandava vanavas, Arjuna procedes to seek divya astras. He gets the Pasupati astra from Shiva. What are the others he gets and what are their features?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

Worshippng Shiva ,Vishnu,Brahma. in pre Mahabharatha period is more of symbolic meaning of worshipping the same but in different style or purpose than how it was later turned into a complex understanding, just like the complex understanding of Vedas post Shankaracharya period .
Shiva astra means end achieved through a violent system
Vishnuastra means through a intelligent or clever system
Brahmastra means ends achieved through materialistic system, a type asuras were inclined to.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

googling brought this short version

Divya Astras and Tejas

Now we know why ABV named LCA Tejas!
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote:During Pandava vanavas, Arjuna procedes to seek divya astras. He gets the Pasupati astra from Shiva. What are the others he gets and what are their features?
Very interesting that you broughtup this topic...

Recently I stumbled upon the mantra for Agneyastra...(seriously)

I also heard that the astra vidya is taken out from human after Mahabharata war, as humans can't properly use them in Kaliyuga.

Even though one achieves an Astra (different from sastra, which is just an arrow), the power of Astra depends upon one's dharmic power. Both Rama and Ravana had Brahmastra, but they would have different impact when used.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Anujan »

ramana wrote:googling brought this short version

Divya Astras and Tejas

Now we know why ABV named LCA Tejas!
The word Tejas has another association with the IAF. The motto of TACDE is "Tejas Tejasvi Naamaham" (or I am the radiance of those who are brilliant or in other words, the best of the best).
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Regarding "astra/sastra" - two quick questions:

(a) I have always wondred about the Mhabharatam story about the Nishad "prince" Ekalavya's guru-dakshina of the "thumb". But my experience of tribal hunts and my own exposure to archery tells me that we do not use the thumb. So is there another story behind this? Was the thumb used in the days of the Mahabharata, and used by the "elite"? Was archery banned for the "ataviks"? So they began to use a different technique? Or was someone's thumb really cut off as punishment for defying the ban and they in protest or alternatively took up the current technique?

(b) I have read through the available version of the so-called "Vaimanika sastra" supposedly authored by Rishi Bharadwaj. I do not find it credible. Although there ar edescriptions of powered flight in both the epics as well as some Puranas. Could the book be an attempt at reconstrcuting something whose vague outline has been remembered traditionally but the important technical details lost? Or the time of its surfacing in the twentieth century could have already contaminated it with already existing aircraft ideas?
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