LCA news and discussion

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 26 Jun 2009 18:18

LCA’s final prototype to take off soon

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... UTQ==&SEO=

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme has achieved another significant breakthrough as its final prototype vehicle PV-5 will soon take to the skies. The PV-5, one of the five prototype vehicles developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency is ready with the Engine Ground Run currently being carried on..........................“The Engine Ground Run precedes the low-speed taxi trial and the high speed taxi-trials, following which the first flight of the aircraft will take place,” said sources. “Once the weather improves the taxi trial will be carried and so will the first flight of the PV-5,” sources added.

Not very detailed but atleast something!

naird · Post by **naird** » 26 Jun 2009 19:02

KrishG wrote:LCA’s final prototype to take off soon

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... UTQ==&SEO=

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme has achieved another significant breakthrough as its final prototype vehicle PV-5 will soon take to the skies. The PV-5, one of the five prototype vehicles developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency is ready with the Engine Ground Run currently being carried on..........................“The Engine Ground Run precedes the low-speed taxi trial and the high speed taxi-trials, following which the first flight of the aircraft will take place,” said sources. “Once the weather improves the taxi trial will be carried and so will the first flight of the PV-5,” sources added.
Not very detailed but atleast something!

Some good news early morning.....aaahhhhh feels so nice.......Way to Go LCA.....

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Jun 2009 20:18

K Mehta wrote: In the Feb 2009 issue, there is a Talk (article in the journal) on EJ TVC I think by some Eurojet executive, but I felt apparently the whole talk was about integrating EJ200 with 3D TVC in LCA. The point was further elaborated by a picture of LCA showing control surfaces and a thrust vectoring engine in the same article. This is a very very interesting possibility

it would be interesting for sure, but it would add a lot more development time to the new engine integration..at least some part of the flight control laws software would need to be re-written and a hell of a lot of re-work and flight testing would be required. I'm not sure if they would gain as much from that as compared to using just a regular EJ200.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jun 2009 20:19

^^^ AoA I presume pv-5 is the trainer. Two events that i have been looking forward to
1. Trainer taking off
2. Concluding Bomb runs

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 26 Jun 2009 20:26

Yes it is the 2 seat trainer as per the express news report linked earlier

naird · Post by **naird** » 26 Jun 2009 20:50

Any updates about LSP3 with MMR ? Thats the one i have been waiting for ages...

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 26 Jun 2009 22:58

I saw this national geographic video on LCA for the first time.
I suppose many of the BRF members have already seen this but still posting the link.

[googlevideo]4503725423837794418[/googlevideo]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3837794418

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 27 Jun 2009 07:34

yes it is a PV-5

LCA PV-5 twin seater first flight soon

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 27 Jun 2009 17:27

It will be fully combat capable and could be used in that role.

Without a rader!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 27 Jun 2009 18:03

SanjibGhosh wrote:
It will be fully combat capable and could be used in that role.
Without a rader!

LCA Tejas trainers will carry a radar

They have the same nosecone as the fighter

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 27 Jun 2009 18:13

LCA Tejas will carry a radar

PV5 will carry a rader ???

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 27 Jun 2009 18:23

rader? The aircraft will be a raider or defender as desired.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 27 Jun 2009 18:24

SanjibGhosh wrote:
LCA Tejas will carry a radar

PV5 will carry a rader ???

Initially PV-5 might not carry a radar

but production trainers will

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... seater.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... +Feb09.JPG

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 27 Jun 2009 18:42

Initially PV-5 might not carry a radar

but production trainers will

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... seater.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... +Feb09.JPG

Thanks, just wondering whether PV5 might be carrying a radar (may be a surprise). Otherwise how it will be fully combat capable?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2009 19:44

conformal aesa radar t/r panels are a possibility to the side lobe just near to the "RESCUE" sign, for future variants. elta participation should give these ideas a bigger shot in the arm. in addition, if eads is thinking of pitching in with their tech on engines plus on the aesa augmentation from their GaN based modules, it should be pretty much a platform that needs to be scary even for a squadron of raptors against tejas miniscule rcs, especially if the range of astra can be enhanced to the latest aim120d specs, and the radars can handle them as well.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jun 2009 20:01

IIRC "T/R modules" for a conformal are not the same as that used in the cone of a AC.

Modules in a conformal situation need to be able to take a beating + they need to be far more thinner and be able to conform to the shape.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 27 Jun 2009 20:04

SaiK wrote:needs to be scary even for a squadron of raptors against tejas miniscule rcs, especially if the range of astra can be enhanced to the latest aim120d specs, and the radars can handle them as well.

What about the RCS from the astra missiles and other payload that hang out from the belly and wings like ganga-jal lotas. LCA is a 4th gen, F22 is 5th gen let's end the discussion at that.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Jun 2009 20:25

AmitR wrote:
SaiK wrote:needs to be scary even for a squadron of raptors against tejas miniscule rcs, especially if the range of astra can be enhanced to the latest aim120d specs, and the radars can handle them as well.
What about the RCS from the astra missiles and other payload that hang out from the belly and wings like ganga-jal lotas. LCA is a 4th gen, F22 is 5th gen let's end the discussion at that.

you probably miss the point of what Sai was saying , if the RCS of LCA is more or less the same as Mig-21 Bison (which did get a special mention at Red Flag) then it would be visible on enemy radar fairly late

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 28 Jun 2009 20:56

Nihat wrote:
you probably miss the point of what Sai was saying , if the RCS of LCA is more or less the same as Mig-21 Bison (which did get a special mention at Red Flag) then it would be visible on enemy radar fairly late

Also i think the skin is completely composite. And inlets are cleverly placed. rcs should be pretty good compared to other aircraft.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jun 2009 21:02

this evening I saw a dark colour emb-145 type jet take off from HAL and
disappear towards the south-west. moved quite fast.

the thing which struck me was - it seemed to have the ereyie style radar bar
...saw it just one moment before roof blocked my view.

could have been mistaken. could be the rear side engine that misled me.

any idea if cabs has obtained such a airframe for integration?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jun 2009 01:37

Singha wrote:this evening I saw a dark colour emb-145 type jet take off from HAL and
disappear towards the south-west. moved quite fast.

the thing which struck me was - it seemed to have the ereyie style radar bar
...saw it just one moment before roof blocked my view.

could have been mistaken. could be the rear side engine that misled me.

any idea if cabs has obtained such a airframe for integration?

Among the Embraer jets ordered for the VIP squadron, one was destined for CABS for their AEW project.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jun 2009 02:33

Paramount airlines too operates embraer. Any chance of the airplane color was dark blue of paramount?

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 01 Jul 2009 19:15

New photos of Tejas on livefist.

http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 01 Jul 2009 19:30

If the weapon-testing and night flights are all all conducted using the LITENING pod then willn't LCA have to do all this once again and extra work after radar integration ??
Isn't testing the RADAR during weapons trials and night flights an integral part of testing process and doing the whole thing again with the radar could be more time consuming.

naird · Post by **naird** » 01 Jul 2009 20:27

KrishG wrote:If the weapon-testing and night flights are all all conducted using the LITENING pod then willn't LCA have to do all this once again and extra work after radar integration ??
Isn't testing the RADAR during weapons trials and night flights an integral part of testing process and doing the whole thing again with the radar could be more time consuming.

Either ways it has to be tested for both pods as well as radar, so dont think there is any extra work. Also pods are primarily used and dedicated for A2G sorties, even SU-30 caries pods sometimes for this role even though Bars is quite powerful.
Second thing, i am not sure why/how PODS will be used for night flying experience , maybe it's just used for terrain mapping during night flying.

nash · Post by **nash** » 06 Jul 2009 11:08

http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/

Now we also have our own HMDS.

Any body have any information about MFD..???

According to wiki we use three foreign avionics in LCA: MFD,HMDS and laser pod.

Now HMDS is being developed: 1 down 2 to go.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 06 Jul 2009 14:13

Another dumb question, cross posted from the Kaveri thread:

The Kaveri in its current form cannot meet the requirements of LCA for thrust. Unless significant re-engineering is done, most likely with partnership of engines like EJ2000 or GE414 (?), the engine is not ready. So why is more engineering work being done on the current design with reference to tests in Moscow? Is it to fine tune the Kabini core so that they can use it for marine applications? There were posts that it will be mated with LCA as well....
If its not going to be used, then why?

nash · Post by **nash** » 06 Jul 2009 15:57

nash wrote:http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/

Now we also have our own HMDS.

Any body have any information about MFD..???

According to wiki we use three foreign avionics in LCA: MFD,HMDS and laser pod.

Now HMDS is being developed: 1 down 2 to go.

http://www.free-press-release.com/news/ ... 00236.html

The Multi-Functional display (MFD)

It is a device that paints a composite view of the aircraft’s environment, providing the pilot with all necessary information to make safe decisions during every phase of flight.
 MFD55 – the 5”x5” screen MFD developed by Samtel under the aegis of DRDO, and manufactured by the Samtel HAL JV has been certified for airworthiness and is flying currently on Sukhoi 30 MKIs. The live demo of this product will be displayed at the Samtel booth under the Samtel HAL collaboration header.

• MFD68 – the 6”x8”screen MFD developed by Samtel Display Systems at its AS9100 certified and MIL qualified facilities will also be put on live demo. This product has undergone a high-end ruggedisation process in-house to enable operations at very high standards of reliability under extremely adverse environmental conditions to withstand Extended temperatures, Extreme shock and vibration, and make them suitable for High altitude avionics, Night Vision, High brightness/ high contrast sunlight readable.

according to this india already have enough expertise on MFD,so i think its actuall 2 down 1 to go...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jul 2009 17:19

I think that members should all read AM Philip Rajkumar's book on the LCA,if they haven't.A lot of Q's being asked here will find answers in his book as well as why the project has taken so long to arrive.The mistrust between end user,the IAF,designing agencies ADA/ADE,etc. and HAL,as well as US sanctions after P-2 and lethargy after Rajiv's assassination are some of the reasons apart from the failure of Kaveri.The key bone of contention was a difference of opinion between the IAF and HAL on the foriegn partner for the FBW control system and other assistance.The IAF preferring a European aerospace entity,which had it had its way would've seen the aircraft in service by now.The tortuous road to developing our own tech for the aircraft from virtual scratch and the individuals who worked miracles are well documented.One sincerely hopes that the project now in the final stages of development and testing (other than the engine) will see the first squadron in service within two years.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Jul 2009 18:13

nash wrote:http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/

Now we also have our own HMDS.

Any body have any information about MFD..???

According to wiki we use three foreign avionics in LCA: MFD,HMDS and laser pod.

Now HMDS is being developed: 1 down 2 to go.

Sigh...'Our Own' HMDS turns out to be Thales Top SIght I assembled/manufactured by SamtelThales..

Don't fall for the headlines.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Jul 2009 21:59

Flight test news

A flight a day until 25 june and then a sudden lull, now what is brewing, is this the calm before storm ? our engrs should come up with weekly reports to satisfy jingos like us

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Jul 2009 07:28

A silly question:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... seater.JPG

If Tejas is made of composite materials, then why there are so many rivets ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Jul 2009 07:49

It is made up of a "high percentage" of composite material. Not the entire air craft.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jul 2009 08:08

suryag wrote:Flight test news

A flight a day until 25 june and then a sudden lull, now what is brewing, is this the calm before storm ? our engrs should come up with weekly reports to satisfy jingos like us

Not calm before the storm. Storm before the calm. The weather in Bangalore has been cloudy, wet and squally. Good for golf - but I did see a Tejas take off last Friday.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 07 Jul 2009 09:10

jamwal wrote:A silly question:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... seater.JPG

If Tejas is made of composite materials, then why there are so many rivets ?

The basic structure that holds everything together is metalic. and to attach the composite materials to the metal ones they need rivets.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 07 Jul 2009 22:28

Tanaji wrote:So why is more engineering work being done on the current design with reference to tests in Moscow? Is it to fine tune the Kabini core so that they can use it for marine applications? There were posts that it will be mated with LCA as well....
If its not going to be used, then why?

Not exactly. The KMGT is already up and ok, and tests at CIAM and other places won't be very helpful for the marine applications. The basic operation is ok... the engine needs to be certified for extreme operations at high altitudes and other conditions that it'll experience in the air in a fighter thats twisting and turning.

The main issue has been with the compressor and L1 combustor. Now, as you have asked, why don't we ditch and go for a JV...

1) We still need the expertise in this area, and need to know whats happening to Kaveri before the JV.

2) If there is a JV, the same tests will anyways be conducted, and maybe at a higher cost. So why not do it now.

3) JV will not solve the combustor problems without analysis. What you are suggesting, that scrap the parts of the design taht have errors and replace them through the JV, is not only costly, but will require an effort almost equal to creating a new engine. An if we don't have knowledge, the JV partner will not give it anyway. Instead, if our own expertise base is high enough to understand what is happening, then we can partner in engineering... we are still at the understanding stage.

4) These tests we are seeing are a culmination of 3-4 years of effort in fixing these problems. At the moment of victory, why throw the hat and give up??

The work we're doing on Kaveri now will help us in the next set and generation of engines that we'll design. Plus, the JV partner won't be able to take us for a ride.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jul 2009 22:37

the current kaveri engine can be a very good candidate for a desi AJT or LCA-LIFT project.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 07 Jul 2009 22:52

k prasad wrote:
Not exactly. The KMGT is already up and ok, and tests at CIAM and other places won't be very helpful for the marine applications. The basic operation is ok... the engine needs to be certified for extreme operations at high altitudes and other conditions that it'll experience in the air in a fighter thats twisting and turning.

The main issue has been with the compressor and L1 combustor. Now, as you have asked, why don't we ditch and go for a JV...

1) We still need the expertise in this area, and need to know whats happening to Kaveri before the JV.

2) If there is a JV, the same tests will anyways be conducted, and maybe at a higher cost. So why not do it now.

3) JV will not solve the combustor problems without analysis. What you are suggesting, that scrap the parts of the design taht have errors and replace them through the JV, is not only costly, but will require an effort almost equal to creating a new engine. An if we don't have knowledge, the JV partner will not give it anyway. Instead, if our own expertise base is high enough to understand what is happening, then we can partner in engineering... we are still at the understanding stage.

4) These tests we are seeing are a culmination of 3-4 years of effort in fixing these problems. At the moment of victory, why throw the hat and give up??

The work we're doing on Kaveri now will help us in the next set and generation of engines that we'll design. Plus, the JV partner won't be able to take us for a ride.

Bang on target.. Hope some people in IAF & MoD think/understand on the same lines..

If IAF can be so considerate to equip atleast a few LCA's with kaveri - to iron out operational issues; we will have a platform on which we can encourage a new design that could likely form the backbone of our Aero-engine fleet - to power MCA, UCAV's.. And also churn out a couple of derivatives -- a downsized engine for trainers & a miniaturized engine for cruise missiles..

But then god didnt bless babu's with foresight, did he?

Rahul M wrote:the current kaveri engine can be a very good candidate for a desi AJT or LCA-LIFT project.

May be a a little bit long, a little bit fat & a little bit heavy for an AJT...

but surely a candidate for LCA-LIFT.. But then IAF would turn around and say -- we dont want to put an unrpoven (unsafe) engine on a trainer which raw-fighter pilots will take lessons on..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Jul 2009 05:24

jamwal wrote:A silly question:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... seater.JPG

If Tejas is made of composite materials, then why there are so many rivets ?

because, while the panels themselves are made of composite materials (carbon fiber), they need to be bolted to the frames lying under them. this is similar to almost all other composite built fighters or civilian aircraft. the one exception that comes to mind is the single piece composite barrel on the Boeing 787, where you won't find rivets on the fuselage..that one is smooth.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 08 Jul 2009 08:23

The thing about rivets is that we can't use these on the MCA. Stealth is not compatible with so many rivets around. Just look at the smooth skins of the F-35, almost no rivets! Even the other 4th gen western aircraft, boast of much smoother and streamlined outer structures than Russian or other aircraft.
I remember reading about how on the F-117 there was an incidence where one screw was slightly unscrewed, it increased the RCS by several factors.