Indian Naval Discussion

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SivaVijay
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SivaVijay »

Philip wrote:Therefore,an IN with about 8-10 nuclear subs will have a significant advantage over any Pak fleet
How will having nuclear subs play to our advantage against the pakis, against whom we always envisage a fortnightly war bfore foreign intervention? This timeframe is short for the advantages of nuclear sub(long operation time, unlimited range) to playout(IMHO onlee). Nuclear subs being more noisy than diesel-electric and with small playfield (North Arabian sea) putting nuclear subs against paks conventional ,how good an idea is this? I can understand the case against China but pakistan.... :roll:

If some guru can shed some light here? thank you in advance....
chetak
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

SivaVijay wrote:
Philip wrote:Therefore,an IN with about 8-10 nuclear subs will have a significant advantage over any Pak fleet
How will having nuclear subs play to our advantage against the pakis, against whom we always envisage a fortnightly war bfore foreign intervention? This timeframe is short for the advantages of nuclear sub(long operation time, unlimited range) to playout(IMHO onlee). Nuclear subs being more noisy than diesel-electric and with small playfield (North Arabian sea) putting nuclear subs against paks conventional ,how good an idea is this? I can understand the case against China but pakistan.... :roll:

If some guru can shed some light here? thank you in advance....

The nuke sub is bound to carry nuke tipped missiles.

This is the untouchable part of your second strike capability. ( or even the un monitored part of your first strike! ) You can strike the porki without telegraphing your move in advance, not subject to the gentle ministrations of the DDM, porki sleeper cells and jholawalla candle kissers or even " journalists with a conscience."

Theoretically you could launch this second strike ( or even a devastating first strike! ) from anywhere in the world depending on the range of your missiles.

It will keep the itchy porki fingers inside their own salwars onlee.

In short, its a very credible deterance.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:if DCN can put the rubis amethyste class into a scorpene hull for brazil , why not continue with the scorpene investment and build our future scorpenes as nuclear. as a relatively small vessel
its suitable for littoral warfare compared to 5-6000t full sized ATV.
Singha , did they actually manage to fit in a reactor on a Scorpene design ? or this is just a claim ( mostly from media ) that the Scorpene is capable ?

Me thinks it just a media claim..... the french may be willing to help Brazil or India but these countries have to manage the reactor part of business and end up redesigning the Scorpene into a larger platform.

The Amethyste is an SSN design from groundup with reactor , coolant pump , control mechanism and all that stuff were designed by French custom built for it.

A smaller design also limits into how much you can put in to a sub in terms of silencing , sensor suite , weapons ending up in an sub-optimium solution.

Looking at development around both Russia and French (baracudda ) for new gen SSN are aiming for ~ 5000 - 6000 T sub class

If ever India decides to fit in a reactor into scorpene then they will have to work with DCN to redesign the sub to fit an Indian reactor into it , provided we manage to minutuirise the reactor to fit into a 6 m dia hull
SivaVijay
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SivaVijay »

Chetak,

Agree with you. But that is the deterrence part. My question is, does a SSN(like a nuclear scorpene) has the capacity to give us more advantages in a war scenario against the pakis (than a conventional scorpene would) given the limitations that of time and area as in my previous post....? I see a conventional sub more suited in this scenarios(restricted time and area), but again I might be wrong.....
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

From LiveFist
The ATV is likely to be launched on July 26 (Vijay Diwas). There was a meeting today to decide the launch date.

http://twitter.com/livefist/statuses/2453162205
sum
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

AoA... :twisted: :twisted:

Am already getting some kind of tingling feeling even thinking about getting to see the first sight of the ATV within a month (if report is true).
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by kittoo »

Kakarat wrote:From LiveFist
The ATV is likely to be launched on July 26 (Vijay Diwas). There was a meeting today to decide the launch date.

http://twitter.com/livefist/statuses/2453162205
Yes yes yes. Launch it on Vijay Divas.......
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

Mashallah...it will be a red letter day...the day..a day of revolution...of breaking mental shackles...and telling the world out loud - "we shall not go quietly into the night" :evil:

I am seeing visions of photos being released at the launch showing the construction inside
the covered shed, huge black cylinder on wheeled megalith truck....canvas around the propeller
area...smooth fitting ovoid torpedo tube doors...

BR will go totally ballistic for a couple of days.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sombhat »

This means that it must already be in the waters. I doubt if the IN is going to float our very first self-designed and built submarine right infront of the glaring DDM.

Need to get tickets to Vizag this Puja, will be a nice vacation.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by negi »

A ~ 55 MWt will yeald a ~ 9 MWe should that be sufficient to power the ~ 6000T ATV assuming the ~ 6K ton is the submerged displacement ?
Austin I won't speculate much due to lack of info and credible sources; for instance we do not even know whether the ATV will use steam turbines for propulsion or use turbo-electric propulsion (although I suspect it is the former :) ).

MV Ramana's article has an entire paragraph on the fuel requirements based on an average cruising speed of 30knots , he puts the power req. figure at 90-150MWth . And it is very close to the figure which BRF had arrived at some time ago .
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Anurag »

Indian Navy's Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya Being Built in Russia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SOtYRn9EJs
Samay
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Samay »

Anurag wrote:Indian Navy's Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya Being Built in Russia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SOtYRn9EJs
Perfection Inbuilt !
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shankar »

ustin I won't speculate much due to lack of info and credible sources; for instance we do not even know whether the ATV will use steam turbines for propulsion or use turbo-electric propulsion (although I suspect it is the former :) ).

MV Ramana's article has an entire paragraph on the fuel requirements based on an average cruising speed of 30knots , he puts the power req. figure at 90-150MWth . And it is very close to the figure which BRF had arrived at some time ago .
Most likely ATV will use steam propulsion as can make out from the size and shape being speculated

and I think ATV will be faster than 30 knots for sure close to akula speed of 40 knots

that pushes up the power demand to close to 180 MW

using 855 enriched uranium has many advantages like smaller reactor size ,less frequent fuelling etc but also needs higher level of technical maturity in form of more powerful and reliable coolant pumps ,faster control response through accurate feedback sensors etc along with larger facility for producing the enriched uranium .Producing 35% enrichment and 85% uranium is quite different ,the number of cetrifuges required it self goes up manifold and the relation is not linear

we are in the first level of marine reactor development and need to have safety priority at this stage which means going with proven design capability ours and some of our friends which means russians
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by arun »

X Post.

More on the ongoing Vikramaditya nee Gorshkov saga.

Sevmash General Director Nikolai Kalistratov criticises India even after receiving a dressing down by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev:
Aircraft carrier blunders

2009-07-03

……………….... Mr. Kalistratov criticized the Indians for having raised their requirements from Sevmash. –They wanted a Lada, and now they demand a Mercedes, he told the President. …………………….

Barents Observer
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Willy »

I think it would be a mistake if we go for Amur or German design as 2nd line of sub , there is no advantage of operating two different types from Western and Russia as it creates a logistics nightmare.

It is better to work with DCN and design a modified but larger version of Scorpene design with AIP and VLS capability , with as much possible as commonality with the Scorpene design , this would save on logistics , weapons , training and support facility at shore .

For AIP we can go for MESMA initially with an Indian Fuel Cell AIP is available.

Rationalisation and Standardisation is the need of we consider these subs will operate for the next 25 years.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea for going in for two sub lines aside from building up the numbers was to assimilate as much of different tech as possible and then to design an indigenious submarine.The initial idea was to go in for one western and one eastern(Russian) so as to have the best of both worlds as it was put. Isnt this so? There was even news that L&T had tied up with the Russians to build the amur.Dunno whether the second line is going to be russian now.Maybe the RFP is going to be just for formalities sake to fulfil defence procurement requirements.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by NRao »

For AIP we can go for MESMA initially with an Indian Fuel Cell AIP is available.
Indian reactor.
Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Willy wrote:The idea for going in for two sub lines aside from building up the numbers was to assimilate as much of different tech as possible and then to design an indigenious submarine.The initial idea was to go in for one western and one eastern(Russian) so as to have the best of both worlds as it was put. Isnt this so? There was even news that L&T had tied up with the Russians to build the amur.Dunno whether the second line is going to be russian now.Maybe the RFP is going to be just for formalities sake to fulfil defence procurement requirements.
That idea is flawed , conventional submarine building has reached a state of very high level of maturity and technology advancement , so you buy U-212 , Scorpene , Amur they are by and large similar.

So there is nothing great to learn by building Amur , that you cannot learn by building Scorpene or U-212 , but the long term logistics burden and expense for such luxury is very high with very little tactical advantage.

IMO its better to work with DCN and develop a larger version of scorpene with built in AIP and VLS capability in design stage , and integrating maximum possible Indian designed and built components like Sonar , Sensor , ICMS , EW/ESM and Weapons.

We should not go back to the early 80's approach of going for western and eastern submarine which takes us no where but adds burden.

The Amur is a good sub no doubt but there is very little for us to gain from it , except for perhaps making Rosboronexport richer.
Indian reactor.
Why not when its possible , but its technologically complicated and expensive to build and maintain a SSN.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Raman
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Raman »

That article seems to completely confuse Talwar vs Shivalik.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Willy »

IMO its better to work with DCN and develop a larger version of scorpene with built in AIP and VLS capability in design stage , and integrating maximum possible Indian designed and built components like Sonar , Sensor , ICMS , EW/ESM and Weapons.
---------------------------------------

Whats the super scorpene all about. Cant seem to find anything on it online.Anyone have any info on it?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vavinash »

The article is stratpage is complete rubbish.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Willy wrote:Whats the super scorpene all about. Cant seem to find anything on it online.Anyone have any info on it?
The Spanish S-80 is one bigger Scorpene derivative , but Naval Design Bureau and DCN can come with something better.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by KrishG »

Willy wrote:I think it would be a mistake if we go for Amur or German design as 2nd line of sub , there is no advantage of operating two different types from Western and Russia as it creates a logistics nightmare.

It is better to work with DCN and design a modified but larger version of Scorpene design with AIP and VLS capability , with as much possible as commonality with the Scorpene design , this would save on logistics , weapons , training and support facility at shore .

For AIP we can go for MESMA initially with an Indian Fuel Cell AIP is available.

Rationalisation and Standardisation is the need of we consider these subs will operate for the next 25 years.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea for going in for two sub lines aside from building up the numbers was to assimilate as much of different tech as possible and then to design an indigenious submarine.The initial idea was to go in for one western and one eastern(Russian) so as to have the best of both worlds as it was put. Isnt this so? There was even news that L&T had tied up with the Russians to build the amur.Dunno whether the second line is going to be russian now.Maybe the RFP is going to be just for formalities sake to fulfil defence procurement requirements.
DCNS has already offered Scorpene with the MESMA AIP kit, which it tested in 2008 on a Pakistani Agosta 90B sub, PNS Hamza. We still don't know where exactly the subs might be built. If if scorpene is chosen, it seems that MDL willn't be able to build all of the 12 subs within 2015. L&T are building a new dockyard and maybe they can cooperate with the Russians to build the Lada class there. Anyway, how much existing infrastructure for the Kilo class can the Lada share ??
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

KrishG wrote:L&T are building a new dockyard and maybe they can cooperate with the Russians to build the Lada class there. Anyway, how much existing infrastructure for the Kilo class can the Lada share ??
May be they can share to some degree , but you still have to maintain 2 different logistics chain of supply and spares , training , weapons , other shore based maintenance and overhaul facility with trained and skilled manpower for these types

But my point is there is nothing much to gain by operating two types of submarine line , you operate U-214 , Scorpene , or Amur they are all other there and offer similar performance , and even if some do offer small tactical advantage they do not justify the overtly expensive logistics that we have to maintain for next 25 years with very little commonality if any between the two types.

Come to think of it , why would any airforce operate both a Mirage-2000 and F-16 , if they do offer a small tactical advantage over the other for some mission , does it justify the logistics and other burden for maintaining the two types ?

Most of the twin line of submarine concept is due to the presence of strong western and russian officer lobby in the navy , both want to make their say and presence felt , and they come up with some weird reason like learning from West and East and coming with something Indian :-?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by csharma »

Guys, I have a question on number of aircraft carriers India would need. Right now India's plan is to have three. But does that take into account China adding aircraft carriers to its fleet. Would the number change if that were to happen.

Thanks.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shankar »

Hi

Latest news from russian navalexpo at St Ptersburg though Igorr

1) anti torpedo missile - active passive accoustic guidance -speed 25 mtr/sec -presently offered for surface ships only and not subs- launched from modified torpedo tubes

2) vertical launcher which can accommodate both Brahmos and Club

3) Shitl 1 live demonstration very impressive

4) latest generation twin camera night vision device capable of scanning 360 both horizantal and vertical plane mounted on gimbal detachable and under the flight deck like the phased array radar on Ka 31
Shankar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shankar »

International Maritime Defence Show IMDS-2009
Under the Russian Federation Government's order, the 4-th International Maritime Defence Show IMDS-2009 is going to be arranged in St.-Petersburg from June 24 up to June 28, 2009.
The organizer of IMDS-2009 is the Federal Industry Agency. As well IMDS is held under patronage of Maritime Collegiums of the Russian Government and is supported by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russian Federation and Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, Defence Ministry of Russian Federation, Government of St.Petersburg and Rosoboronexport State Corporation.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by harbans »

From the Strateg page link:
The P 17A ships are to be built in 300 ton modules, which must be constructed with sufficient precision that everything (pipes, decks) fits properly when modules are joined. The navy wants the first two built in foreign yards, which have experience with modular construction, so that Indian ship builders can gain some experience with this method. Since no Indian yards have any experience with modular construction, the risk of errors, especially with the first P-17A, is great. That could easily double the construction costs. Then again, building the first two P-17As in a foreign yard would also nearly double the cost.
Pure rubbish. There is nothing great or high tech in modular construction/ assembly. ALL ships are built modularly today. Even simple Panamax, Handy size in almost every tom, dick and harry yard throughout the world are modularly assembled. If your sectional drawings are accurate and modules fabricated as per the correct specifications, then tey will fit each other correctly. Period. :)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by KrishG »

vavinash
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vavinash »

Why do they keep repeating this modified charlie class nonsense. If the India today schematic is from any verified source it looks closer to akula than charlie.
Shankar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shankar »

guess - it is very similar to akula 2 if not identical -shall know in a few days

Charlie class chakra was used to train on reactor operation

Nerpa is coming to show how our ATV is to be used as a strategic second strike platform
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

^^^
but the tonnage quoted has been consistently at 6000 t while akula 2 is at around 9000 t submerged.
of course if 6000 is the surfaced value submerged value will be closer to that of the akula.


and from aroor's blog :
Historic ATV launch imminent!
Wanted to post this a few days ago, but it slipped by. Vice Admiral (Retd) DSP Varma, DGATVP (Director General - Advanced Technology Vessel Project) will oversee the long-awaited, yet historic launch of India's first nuclear submarine later this month, or early August. India Today Associate Editor Sandeep Unnithan reports that one of the dates being considered for the launch is July 26, Vijay Diwas. Another possible date is August 15. Unnithan also reports that two more hulls are ready for fabrication by Larsen & Toubro, which will ultimately become ATV-2 and 3. The launch is, of course, merely the beginning of what could be a protracted trial process, that will involve a few years of harbour and sea trials before the submarine can be commissioned into Indian Naval service. But this is still very exciting!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Juggi G »

Austin wrote:Come to think of it , why would any airforce operate both a Mirage-2000 and F-16 , if they do offer a small tactical advantage over the other for some mission , does it justify the logistics and other burden for maintaining the two types ?
Austin Saab, What you are saying is Right, but Nonetheless Funnily Enough Four Countries operate Fleets of both Mirage-2000 and F-16 as per Wikipedia.

Mirage 2000 :-
Greece 44
Taiwan 60
Egypt 20
United Arab Emirates 68

F-16 :-
Greece
Taiwan
Egypt
United Arab Emirates
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

points to ponder (yes/no):
- will it have hydroplanes on the sail
- "normal" type sail or akula/victorIII type blended sail
- will it have a big towed array sonar housing and cruciform tailfins to
accomodate
- I guess we can rule out pumpjet propulsor because Rus itself doesnt
use them yet
- number and size of VL tubes
- number and size of torpedo tubes
- spherical bow sonar
- flank array sonar
- high frequency chin sonar for mine avoidance
- raw power of the reactor and top noisy speed (will be classified for sure)
- top quiet speed (will be classified for sure)
- combat system (whether kilo style or soothing scorpene/virginia type Dell ultrasharp 24" IPS panels with logitech gaming keyboard and laser mouse with neon backlighting)
- size of officer and crew complement
- expected length of each patrol
- what torpedo
- what missile
- which optronic mast (tfta kollmorgen or sdre bel :mrgreen: )
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

I have lived for the day for many a year now of trawling the depths of br.

bring it on baby! show us what yindia is capable of! :evil:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by anmol »

Gurus, how would you all compare our ATV's and prospective Akula submarine(s) with the China's Type 91-92-93 and 94 class submarines.

- Shishya.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

vina
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vina »

raw power of the reactor and top noisy speed (will be classified for sure)
- top quiet speed (will be classified for sure)
Around 50MWe +- 5MWe (150MWt), 26 knots and 6 knots respectively from what I estimate.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

how did you 6knots without knowing the nature of power plant, props and drive technology?

688I is alleged to have a 15-20 knot range for quiet speed, which gives it a superb hunter-killer ability. accounting for sdre << tfta, shouldnt our puppy run quiet around 12 knots?

I wouldnt be too worried about the top speed, as its useful for long transits
and its only going to improve as our naval reactors become more powerful and efficient.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Willy »

Are the ATV-2 and 3 going to be different and bigger designs?
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