may be a calculator will do nicely ?

Allah be prasied, my sarcasm missed the mark.Rahul M wrote:someone pinch me !vasu_ray wrote:however, a 50km precision weapon that relies less on ground transportation and hence logistics, say fired from Dhruv/LCH further helps the infantry at the front line
The Indian Amy has completed user trials of Nag, which is a modern, all-weather, anti-tank guided missile that can defeat the toughest armours.
The 4-km range, third generation, ‘fire and forget’ missile has been tested on both stationary and moving targets during day and night, according to defence scientists.
The Hyderabad-based defence public sector unit Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) will manufacture the Nag missile.
In the winter trials carried out last year, the missile achieved six out of six successful hits on both stationary and moving targets. Similarly in the summer trials conducted in the last few days, the success rate has been total, he {Dr. Saraswat} said.
The Indian Army requires a few thousand Nags, each of which costs approximately Rs 50 lakh, when produced indigenously. Defence scientists are also working on a helicopter version, which would be integrated to the ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter).
These 100% success rates for all missiles of DRDO somehow don't excite me. Why and how come all the tests are completely successful? And for the sake of argument, even if a test is 100% successful, then why is there need for repeated testing.In the winter trials carried out last year, the missile achieved six out of six successful hits on both stationary and moving targets. Similarly in the summer trials conducted in the last few days, the success rate has been total
Milan costs about 20 lakhs+ so it is not whole lot cheaper.Sandipan wrote:If Nag missile is going to cost 50 lacs per peice, its hell of a costly missile and its targeting of any vehicle other than tanks wont be desirable. I think the NAMICA driver has to do cost benefit analysis before firing the missile on any target. The Cost seems to be reason why even after Nag, we are buying Milan II and Konkurs on hundreds.
Thank You Mullah RaoNRao wrote:No expert - even in my dreams - but, isn't the Milan a 2 Km, IR guidance, etc. Nag is supposed to be fire&forget, 4Km, hits the top of a tank, etc?
So, what gives? I would expect the Nag to be a lot more expensive.
Sandipan wrote:If Nag missile is going to cost 50 lacs per peice, its hell of a costly missile and its targeting of any vehicle other than tanks wont be desirable. I think the NAMICA driver has to do cost benefit analysis before firing the missile on any target. The Cost seems to be reason why even after Nag, we are buying Milan II and Konkurs on hundreds.
Not related to main discussion, but somewhat similar, expecially after seeing some posts about antennas on the skin.Singha wrote:are there new antennas needed or the stick type ones currently in place for cellphone will suffice?
what is the ceiling of these 'radars' - only useful against low flyers or can detect hi-alt planes and drones too ?
Rakall: that's a serious cost differential. Any idea why we didnt go for a Russian IIR seeker (which I assume will be cheaper) - hindsight being 20/20? Also, this just exposes how weak DRDO is in reverse engineering. For all the fun we make of cheap Chinese copy-cats, they are way ahead of us in this area.rakall wrote: Refer back to the AI09 notes from BDL:
1. NAG - the missile costs 70lakhs out of which (imported) IIR seeker costs 35-40lakhs.. Konkur-M with the same range costs 10Lakhs.. (the 70lakh figure may be prototype costs.. 50lakh may be serial production costs - just guessing)
2. Indigenous IIR seeker not matured enough.. lot of work remaining..
A comparable third generation Anti-tank missile like Javelin cost $78,000(missile) + $162,000 (Launcher Reusable). Spike is supposed to be much cheaper.ramana wrote:The Nag IR seeker, based on old 1990s data, was based on Mg Cd Telluride(MgCdTe) which is gold standard of IR seekrs. Ga As seekers are old hat. So there is technology development involved downstream. The old style seeker will require more power etc. if its now chosen.
Besides Rs 50 lakhs is $100K and even a dabba tank cost ~$2M. So look at the cost benefit ratio. As for Konkurs is cheaper etc., is it as effective as the Nag is the naggingAnd isnt Konkurs wire guided so exposes the operator to shoot back?
Repeated successful testing establishes confidence limits. At least ten successful repeated tests(same target and conditions) give 99% confidence levels.
Cellphones communicate with the cellular network or can be tricked into communicating with the network. The "time of arrival" and "angle of arrival" data required for positioning a cellphone comes from transmissions from the cellphone itself - which are in the uplink band. The typical GSM cellular network base-station is FDD (frequency division duplex). So the base-station's transmissions in the downlink band are completely filtered out by the base-station's own uplink receivers. This prevents receiver-blocking where the base-station's receivers would be deafened by the base-station's own transmitters.p_saggu wrote:Even today, cellphone towers triangulate cellphones. In fact they can narrow down a cell phone to a couple of meters, they can track the movement of the cellphone in near-real time.
Why can't a software re-program convert all these towers into a radar network?
I suggest that people first understand what the principle as well as difference between:PratikDas wrote:Cellphones communicate with the cellular network or can be tricked into communicating with the network. The "time of arrival" and "angle of arrival" data required for positioning a cellphone comes from transmissions from the cellphone itself - which are in the uplink band. The typical GSM cellular network base-station is FDD (frequency division duplex). So the base-station's transmissions in the downlink band are completely filtered out by the base-station's own uplink receivers. This prevents receiver-blocking where the base-station's receivers would be deafened by the base-station's own transmitters.p_saggu wrote:Even today, cellphone towers triangulate cellphones. In fact they can narrow down a cell phone to a couple of meters, they can track the movement of the cellphone in near-real time.
Why can't a software re-program convert all these towers into a radar network?
Enemy aircraft are not going to communicate with the cellular network in the uplink band. Reflections in other frequency bands from the aircraft are physically filtered out. A software upgrade will not suffice. Also note that even if the radio interface is reconfigured, the radio signals cannot be trunked to a centralised processor in analog or digital form because the bandwidth available will be grossly insufficient. Digital signal processing equipment will need to be moved to the "front end" of the network, i.e. every base-station, so that processed reflection information which would be low in bitrate can be transmitted digitally to a centralised processor. So now we need not only a software upgrade but also a radio hardware reconfig and smart/expensive processors at the front end of the network.
The highlighted part is for sure "Satya vachan".My personal opinion, as someone who works with cellular networks for a living, is that it would be far cheaper and better to make an independent network. The system would be completely reconfigurable as needs evolve over time. I also believe such a system is well within current Indian capability.
Open literature sources claim VERA-E systems have been exported to Estonia, Pakistan and the United States. Newspaper reports also claimed that in January 2004 the Czech defence sales company, Omnipol, received licence to sell six systems to China. However, US government pressure on the Czech government resulted in the cancellation of this contract. Civil systems have been widely exported throughout Europe.
this is really unfair comparison. milan, javelin and spike are light man portable ATGMs, entirely different class from Nag. milan and konkurs are also wire guided and hence 2nd gen.sunilUpa wrote:A comparable third generation Anti-tank missile like Javelin cost $78,000(missile) + $162,000 (Launcher Reusable). Spike is supposed to be much cheaper.
Having said that, Nag is ours. If we can indiginise IIR and MW seekers in next 5 years, cost should come down considerably. Otherwise Nag will remain a niche player.
Not really.. only possible with synchronous networks like CDMA, not gsm or umts. Even with cdma, there are a lot of practical difficulties, oscillators are not upto spec, location of the emitters changes randomly and so on.p_saggu wrote:Even today, cellphone towers triangulate cellphones. In fact they can narrow down a cell phone to a couple of meters, they can track the movement of the cellphone in near-real time.
Hmm not really, in fact Nag not being man portable looses against Spike or Javelin. The range, and technology are comparable (even though Javelin and Spike are man portable).Rahul M wrote:this is really unfair comparison. milan, javelin and spike are light man portable ATGMs, entirely different class from Nag. milan and konkurs are also wire guided and hence 2nd gen.sunilUpa wrote:A comparable third generation Anti-tank missile like Javelin cost $78,000(missile) + $162,000 (Launcher Reusable). Spike is supposed to be much cheaper.
Having said that, Nag is ours. If we can indiginise IIR and MW seekers in next 5 years, cost should come down considerably. Otherwise Nag will remain a niche player.
in terms of class and generation, Nag is in the same group as nimrod, hellfire or brimstone.
the germans are currently developing an anti-tank missile with almost identical specifications as Nag called pars.
saar ji, missiles in the Nag class can never be man portable, all the examples I've listed are in the 45-50 kg category.Hmm not really, in fact Nag not being man portable looses against Spike or Javelin. The range, and technology are comparable (even though Javelin and Spike are man portable).
Rahul M wrote:saar ji, missiles in the Nag class can never be man portable, all the examples I've listed are in the 45-50 kg category.Hmm not really, in fact Nag not being man portable looses against Spike or Javelin. The range, and technology are comparable (even though Javelin and Spike are man portable).
MANP ATGMS come in the 10-15 kg category.
if the second kind was enough, the very countries that make the javelin and spike also make the hellfire and the nimrod would have stuck with the former only! MANPATGMs is simply a class which will be filled by licensed maal in the foreseeable future.
if ever the IA/IAF goes for assault helos in a big way, Nag will have its role. that role can't be filled by the likes of milan 2.
Andy saheb, I am only comparing the cost to costliest ATM missile in world - Javelin, not weight of the system.andy B wrote:Gents, in regards to the Nag its not fair to compare it with systems such as ze Javelin and others bcoz for the countries that have developed these systems they have had a bucket load of experience and thus have reached where they are now. For the ebil Yindoos this is the 1st gen of a dedicated Indian ATM. In doing so we have caught up quite well with the gora systems. IMVHO if this is our 1st gen then surely the next gen of our ATMs will be even more potent and capable. Take this FWIW but looking at the Nag I very sincerely doubt the 4 km range just given the size of the mijjile I would think that the thing will fly farther than 4 kms may be the ebil Yindoos are just mentioning that as a median range![]()
In terms of Namica being easily detectable, I would imagine that the Namica will be accompanying an armoured force consisting of Tanks, Apcs, ityadi. Given the nature of the Namica it will be shoot n scoot tactics, and not up front engagement like ze tanks. Namica will be a great asset for recce forces. I think of them as a sniper for the armoured forces who will be able to take out multiple armoured targets and evacuate with minimal detection (detection I suppose would be affected by the terrain, the enemy and of course the way the engagement occurs)
JMT
AoA Mullah Sunil-nullah dont worry mate I knew you meant well, besied I now think I have been reading BRF to know who ze typical "Fire-Bugs" are...so its all good the United Progressive Alliance is safe...sunilUpa wrote: Andy saheb, I am only comparing the cost to costliest ATM missile in world - Javelin, not weight of the system.
I want to see Nag not only in the armory of IA, but widely exported too. That's why I was comparing cost. I am not dissing Nag.
Just to clarify, before things get heated up.
I thought the Hellfire was solely air-to-ground - how much would Nag's range improve if it were fired a2g?sunilUpa wrote: Nimrod weighs twice as much as Nag, has six times the range, Hellfire is is in the same weight class (if there is such classification) as Nag but has double the range and costs half as much as Nag (if we believe 50L as the eventual cost of Nag).