Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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RamaY
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

brihaspati wrote:Regarding "astra/sastra" - two quick questions:

(a) I have always wondred about the Mhabharatam story about the Nishad "prince" Ekalavya's guru-dakshina of the "thumb". But my experience of tribal hunts and my own exposure to archery tells me that we do not use the thumb. So is there another story behind this? Was the thumb used in the days of the Mahabharata, and used by the "elite"? Was archery banned for the "ataviks"? So they began to use a different technique? Or was someone's thumb really cut off as punishment for defying the ban and they in protest or alternatively took up the current technique?
AFAIK, the Dharma-Sukshma (Subtle Dharma) behind this episode. Please do not mortify me for unintended racism :oops:

Background: Ekalavya approached Dronacharya to learn Dhanurvidya. Dronacharya has a vrata (pre-condition ... Even Parasurama had similar condition w.r.t Karna) that he would teach Dhanurvidya only to Sat-Brahmana and Sat-Kshatriyas, because he not only knows Sastra vidya, but also Astra vidya. Hiding something like Astra vidya from an able student would undermine his Guru Dharma. So instead Dronacharya decided not to teach Dhanurvidya to non-brahmins/kshatriyas.

Ekalavya respected Dronacharya's explanation and left the gurukula. But his interest in Dhanurvidya is so great that he used an image of Dronacharya as guru and learned Sastra vidya.

Context: One day Dronacharya and his students (Pandavas and Kauravas) went to forest for hunting (and practicing). They took hunting dogs along with them. When the dogs were barking, suddenly quite a few (5-6) arrows came from nowhere and stuck in a dogs mouth (that means the guy who put the arrows in dogs mouth could release that many arrows in the time a dog can close its mouth when hit (milli seconds?)).

Dharma-Sukshma:
- Ekalavya possessed amazing Sastra skills. Under an able teacher or thru penance he can easily gain Astra vidya (available in those days).
- Unfortunately he lacked the patience required by such a great power. He got easily disturbed and couldn't control his irritation when a dog barked (its natural tendency) near his practice area. And he applied such a great skill against a dog (an innocent animal) not for controlling (he could have done something else to chase the dog away) but for punishing just because he could do it.
- When explained Ekalavya understood his mistake and happily gave his gurudakshina. He honored that-days guru-sishya dharma. Remember, he can anytime could have argued against Dronacharya's request and Dronacharya would have to resort to visible punishment to achieve what he wanted.

Analysis
- While it was explained as an Adharmic attempt by Dronacharya to protect Arjuna's primacy, Arjuna already demonstrated his "savyasachi" (ambidexterity) in Sastra vidya. Moreover he got some Astra vidya from Dronacharya. Added with Brahmastra (applied against Aswatthama's Brahmastra) and Pasupatastra, he would easily win against Ekalavya.
- After this incident, Ekalavya practiced Dhanurvidya with four fingers only and achieved great skill and fought on the side of Kauravas in Kurukshetra.


It could be a vocal tradition that as descendents of Ekalavya, certain tribes practice using four fingers, without thumb. However, without thumb, AFAIK the Astra vidya will not yield.
Last edited by RamaY on 09 Jul 2009 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Good summary RamaY. There is a pdf on line on this which alludes to Ekalavya's other propensity to side with adharmic forces.


Parimalam- e-magazine

Refer to second chapter. So mos tlikely there was propensity to side with adharma.

BTW if anyone can get the rest of the articles by J. Whittaker from Springer Verlag on Divya Astras would appreciate it.

Looks like Hindus were the first ones to contemplate the use and absue of WMD and limits of power.

Regarding the Vaimanika sastra thats availaible, please read the preface. It was written in a trance in early 20th century and not a direct handover from ancient times. So I suspect its veracity. It could be a summary of all scuh descriptions in the epics and puranas compiled by the author while recovering from a seizure.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

That is a very good article by Whitakar.. I have the complete article..

let me know the email ID..
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

There are two articles by him.
Google on Whitaker and Divya Astras

deleted...

thanks
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Chiron wrote:That is a very good article by Whitakar.. I have the complete article..

let me know the email ID..
Ramay.brf at gmail please

thanks
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

brihaspati wrote:I did not want to go into the "subdivisions" and "subhierarchies" within the Dharmic. If really needed, I would clearlys tate my positiona s that of one who finds "dialectics" false and a result of stressing too much on apparent realities which in turn are again constructed realities. Since I do not subscribe to logical systems in which an entity or expression is "both A and not A" where A is an attribute, my position perhaps coincides with the "advaitha" position. But this prehaps does not belong to this thread.
This is what I understood so far from various sources…

Nirguna Parambrahma (God-consciousness) is Karana for everything. From this Karana came Maya. Before Manifestation, the entire creation exists in this Maya as a tree in a seed {See my earlier posts}. One analogy I liked is that God-consciousness created the creation and entered it similar to gold became a necklace and entered. When necklace is destroyed, gold still remains…. Something like that.

From this Seed came the manifest creation. This is Chaturmukha Brahma (4-dimensional space?). This is our Srishtikarta Brahma.

And this universe expands. Vishnu means “Vyapakaseela” == expanded. During this expansion period, this manifest-universe is called Vishnu. Now you can contemplate the symbolism of Seshasayana Vishnu (Galaxies and super galaxies etc) and why only Vishnu-tatva (Vishnu-consciousness?) has incarnations.

As the manifest universe expands, it reaches a critical point where it starts the process of dissolution (one of the many meanings of Shiva = Laya = dissolution , disappearance or absorption in). For example, Hubble’s law describes the observation in physical cosmology that the velocity at which various galaxies are receding from the earth is proportional to their distance from us. I read in some astronomy book that extrapolates this law where even the blackholes will become empty (?) when time becomes 10^200+ years range.

The astronomical time scales appear meaningless to a human mind, they are factual nevertheless. Now if one applies these astronomical timelines to your time scale as described in Arsha-Vijnan we can see some correlation. It is comical to see Brahma/Vishnu being born and dying.

If you see the life of Sun (our solar system), the life-sustaining period of this star is about 4+ billion years (period between life forming to sun transforming into a red gaint). This is nearly equivalent to a Manvantanra in Veda-vijnana = ~4.354 billion years. After this the life forms have to move to another solar system to sustain.

It could be said that our galaxy Milky Way translates into milky ocean in sanskrit and is spiral in form. If so, what is the life of Milky Way, our galaxy? Wiki says “It is extremely difficult to define the age at which the Milky Way formed, but the age of the oldest star in the Galaxy yet discovered, HE 1523-0901, is estimated to be about 13.2 billion years, nearly as old as the Universe itself”. If we apply Kalpa == life of Galaxy, it should be 14x4.354 = ~68 billion years. A study says “To pictorialize a kalpa- that is the time between the initial condensation to the final conflagration of a world system.” This is why this becomes the life of Vishnu and we are in Sweta Varaha Kalpa.

Now we are said to be in the 7th Kalpa, that means the universe must be more than 26billion years old, which is almost double the age than the modern science predicts it to be. But the modern scientific method depends on how far modern telescopes can look into open space and calculate the age of universe backwards. Or they extrapolate the Hubble’s law type laws/constants?

The Ramamayan happened 27 Mahayugas ago.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

RamaYji,
too tempting a line have you brought up -especially on the theoretical physics/astrophysics side. Just gagging myself here. :)

However, if you look at the 27 mahayuga slot for Ramayana, as far as I can remember, geologically the time would belong to lower Cretaceous. This is the time when mammals appear/expand a bit (marsupials probably), flowering plants spread, dinosaurs diversify. But the most important event is perhaps the break up of the Gondwana. Will have to look up exact estimates. This means Indian plate/Deccam plate starts its rather rapid North-Eastern journey to collide into "Asia" after another 60 million years from the "Ramayana" epoch.

I had a theory that some of our ancient stories were "dual" purpose stories. On the surface they attempt describing real events within human civilizational memory. On the inner, this real event actually is used to encode data of a much earlier geological/astrophysical event. Maybe, analyzing the Balmiki Ramayana with estimated geological/astrophysical events could be explored. I can help with the astrophysics and theoretical phsyics part if needed. There is a large amount of speculation about the triggers for beginning of separation of continents from the supercontinent Gondwana. Incidentally, do we know that it is estimated that all continents will aggregate again around the Indian Ocean which will become an inland Ocean. India doesnt move much in the scheme of things, but it would be quite sarisfying to see what happens to some of the "tigers" and "elephants" of nations and powers who lord it now - in say 50 million years and in 250 mya!

I believe the real Ramayan story happened during the staged rise of sea-level that gradually disconnected Sri-Lanka. The story reflects a period, probably between 6000-8000 BCE when there still would be a thin land bridge, or islands which can be forded during low-tide. Just like Dwarka, Ravanas city could be a harbour on a small off-shore island that had formed as aresult of sea-level rise, which could be breached by a causeway built for war and siege. I have a speculation for the reason behind Rama's journey south and what it actually represents. But no wish to lengthen this.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svinayak »

brihaspati wrote:Interesting series of posts on Kalki. "Kalki" took my recent interest when researching time cycles. The Yuga cycles should perhaps not be taken literally. Look at the ratios, they have some obvious mathematical relations.

More accurately,

309,173,760,000,000 year equals 100 years of Brahma which represents a lifetime of Brahma equals a lifetime of the Universe. The Universe is dissolved 36,000 times, after which everything is withdrawn into Shiva. After this a new universe is born.

8,640,000,000 years: one day and night of Brahma.
4,320,000,000 years: one day of Brahma
4,320,000 years sidereal years: Mahayuga
1,728,000 years, Krita / Satya Yuga
1,296,000 the Treta Yuga
864,000 the Dvapara Yuga
432,000 years, Kali Yuga


60^3 = 216,000 years
Kali (2x60^3)= 432,000 years
Dvapara (4x60^3) =864,000 years
Treta (6x60^3) = 1,296,000 years
Krita (8x60^3) =1,728,000 years

The theory of subcycles comes from a an old astrological principle. Vimshottari antar-Dasha (and pratyantar) is subdivided in proportion to the mahadashas. By this principle, we can have a proportional subdivision of the yugas - like Kali yuga - Krita antaryuga etc.
It is from Jyothishya principles. Vimshottari Dasha System. The dashas are the planetary cycles based on Moon.
THe proportion is based on each planet and their cycles.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svinayak »

brihaspati wrote:
I had a theory that some of our ancient stories were "dual" purpose stories. On the surface they attempt describing real events within human civilizational memory. On the inner, this real event actually is used to encode data of a much earlier geological/astrophysical event. Maybe, analyzing the Balmiki Ramayana with estimated geological/astrophysical events could be explored.
Most of the inner stories are on astronomical data encoded and embedded.
http://www.sonoma.edu/projects/nbisp/in ... istory.doc
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6403178/The-D ... harata-War
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/MahabharataII.pdf
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by mkumar »

RamaY wrote:
- After this incident, Ekalavya practiced Dhanurvidya with four fingers only and achieved great skill and fought on the side of Kauravas in Kurukshetra.
I remember reading from the Malayalam encyclopedia [Sarva Vijana Kosham] that there are two Ekalavyas in Mahabharat. The Ekalavya under discussion was part of Jarasandhas army and he was killed by Krishna.

Mkumar
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:Regarding "astra/sastra" - two quick questions:

(a) I have always wondred about the Mhabharatam story about the Nishad "prince" Ekalavya's guru-dakshina of the "thumb". But my experience of tribal hunts and my own exposure to archery tells me that we do not use the thumb. So is there another story behind this? Was the thumb used in the days of the Mahabharata, and used by the "elite"? Was archery banned for the "ataviks"? So they began to use a different technique? Or was someone's thumb really cut off as punishment for defying the ban and they in protest or alternatively took up the current technique?

.....

I wonder if its to make him incomplete. there is this thing about lakshanas and missing thumb would debar him from possessing the complete set of lashanas?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by negi »

Archery involves pretty decent science and technique , it is claimed that the best archers of the modern times (no points for guessing :roll: ) the English longbow wielding army used the index and the middle finger (which is the case in Olympics and other archery competitions unless you opt for a clip to draw the arrow). The use of the thumb has been documented as used by the turks,chinese and Indian civilizations.

The Indians were pretty advanced in archery ; case in point check out the modern day bow used in competitions it is not a simple lonbow as used by the english infact a reflex bow as documented in our epics and depicted in BR Chopra's Mahabharat and Sagar's Ramayan.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Abhi_G »

Negi / Brihaspati, how is the arrow held without the thumb in case of a simple bow made with bamboo cane and say a thread? Is it between the index and the middle fingers?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Rahul M »

there was a book called dhanurshastra which must have dealt with these things.

there were probably more than one book with the same name. The one I'm talking about was written in the early medieval period.
knowledgeable folk, brihaspati ji, airavat ji et al, abhi_g ji, are any of such books available now ?

manuals that carry knowledge of Indian martial culture before they were influenced by the arabs and the turks ?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Dhanurveda? An extract from the Vrihat-sringadhara-paddhati? That wa sthe older Sanskrit work on "horn-bows".

A good review is "Ancient Indian Warfare: With Special Reference to the Vedic Period"
by Sarva Daman Singh, 1990, (Motilal, Banarasidas).

Ramanaji, the lakshmana is a possible important cue. I will think on this.

Abhi_Gji,
I have used both the thumb and middle+index. With the ordinary bamboo cane and reed arrow, the thumb appears convenient, because you need to place the end of the arrow and keep it on the bow-string. However, more practical arrows typically need more aerodynamic stability with "fins". The best is the 4-point compass arrangement in quadrants. If you have this stabilizer fin extending back over the end of the reed, you will find it easier not to us ethe thumb. The thumb can increase the friction at the last moment when the arrow leaves the string. The direction of this friction is in opposite direction to the tendency of the arrow.

However, when you use the middle+index, you just move away perpendicularly from the direction of the arrow.

My personal experience suggests this is better for aim.

By the way, has anyone found references for the reverse bow in the ancient texts from India? I would be curious to find such refs! It is actually no so difficult to make them. :) (And the crossbow, if any - the Chinese used them, surely the art existed here? Crossbows can be mastered much easier than the other forms of bows and does not need a powerful forearm and biceps).
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by negi »

^ Sir from my experience with bows made of bamboo (my grandfather made one for me ..btw he had named me 'Arjun' during my namkaran sanskar :) ), the way we employ the thumb and index finger is not very efficient (but it works as the bow itself was small and not as powerful as the hunting bows made of horn and animal gut).

The thumb and index finger are used exactly as one would use to pull anyone's ears , i.e. the index finger is curled and the thumb presses against it's side. The arrows were basically chiseled (they use a tool in my village called 'basoola') out of bamboo/cheer and without any fins/stabilisers , so unlike in most professional grips the index finger and thumb are not only used to draw the bow but also hold the arrow butt in place on the string (this puts a limit on the amount one can draw without the risk of slipping) .

The actual way of gripping the bow in Asia as done by turks,koreans and even Chinese is by using a thumb ring check out the following video

Turkish way of drawing the bow

I believe people during the vedic age too must have used a similar grip (don't know about the ring though) and hence the relevance of the thumb in 'Eklavya chapter'.

Same is the case with the alleged 'history' behind the showing the 'finger' here from wiki.
A popular urban legend states that during the Hundred Years' War, the French would cut off the middle fingers of captured English archers so they would be unable to use their bows, and that after the Battle of Agincourt, the victorious English showed the French that their middle fingers were still intact
Which technique is better ? well I would say the thumb .. for the most crucial part of the grip is the point of release ...any hesitation or shabby finger twicthing would render the shot useless and in case of powerful bows would also inflict injury in case of the European technique one needs to use '3' fingers (index,middle and ring) and at the point of release all three should basically glide outwards and backwards simultaneously , whereas in case of the Asian technique one only has to release the Thumb (however latter is a bit more tricky to master IMHO).

Btw I remember long time back on DD National in 'Surabhi' they had aired an episode showing a bow made in the upper region of Himalayas (Leh,Laddakh etc) using the horns of a mountain goat and reinforced using its 'guts' , looked like a modern day 'Gaandeev'. :D
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by negi »

Abhi_G Just read this wiki page pretty much everything which you are looking for; what I described in the post above was the pinch draw; the english use what is called the Mediterranean draw; and the Asian technique is christened as the Mongolian draw .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_draw
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

The middle+index I found good for aim, as I mentioned, and also for speed for the reasons stated above. However for rapid fire, without great need for accuracy, thumb, or thumb-ring could be more useful. The Central Asian technique was more developed for mounted archery and rapid harassing fire. So a thumb ring was useful. Moreover, the mounted archer's bow was shorter, more compact. While on horseback, its more difficult to place the arrow on the bow - the thumb ring helps in "locking" quickly.

The composite bow, or the reverse bow is a good way of developing arms muscles - and interesting one for kids I bet! Better ones are made out of certain woods, rather than bamboo. You can actually use the the thinner bamboo sticks for arrows or bamboos tips for arrow heads - for bamboo can be sharpened almost like a knife. Singing slightly in fire toughens the tip after you sharpen it.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Abhi_G »

Negi and Brihaspati, thank you very much. I used the thumb/pinch technique and did not know about the others, although they are very intuitive.

Now regarding Brihaspati's question about lakshanam. I read long back about Dushmanta's meeting with Bharat when the latter was playing with a lion, basically pulling its "kesh". The author (Iswarchandra Vidyasagar) wrote about Dushmanta feeling amazed by the "Raja Chakravarti" lakshanam of Bharat. Can anybody tell what is Raja Chakravarti lakshanam? Or is it an addition by the author since Bharat eventually became a Chakravarti?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Let there be some pictures...

Image
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Abhi_G »

RamaY ji, that photo of the "tibetan" archer from wiki is not of a person of tibetan origin. Seems to me to be an American Indian.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

From Pioneer.
AGENDA | Sunday, July 12, 2009 | Email | Print |


Aum indicates the Brahma

In The Essence of Aum: The Principles of All Movements and Sounds in the Universe, brought out by Konark Publishers, author KA Francis examines the import of the word Aum, the oldest primordial sound. An excerpt:

The idea and the word that indicates it are inseparable; but it can be argued that an idea can be perfectly explained by more than one word. Is Aum the only word to indicate the idea of this world’s origin? Well, yes. Only Aum is competent enough to express the idea of the universe as a whole. There is no other word (sound) it can be swapped with. Etymologically, though Sphotam is the root word for all the words it is not a special word, that has attained the full form.

It is because the letters Aa, Uu, Ma, which are the components of Aum, are the general signs of any word that we can utter. Among all these, the letter with the least attributes is Aa. Maybe, that is why Shri Krishna says in Gita: “Aksharanam akarosmi.”

When we utter a sound, it starts at the bottom of the tongue and comes out from any point up to the lips.

The letter Aa comes from the throat and Ma ends at the lips. The letter Uu starts from the base of the tongue and ends in the lips. The effort of sound rolls forward. So if you utter properly as Aa, Uu, Ma, it will embrace all techniques of utterance of sound.

No other word can do this. That is why it is the most apt name for Sphotam. This and Aum (sound) are indivisible, just like the word and its meaning. Sphotam is very close to God.

Do you know why it is possible for man ‘who is imperfect’ to think about Brahma, one and unbroken, which is Sachitananda? Through his moods and some attributes, a devotee thinks about the universe — which is God’s own body — in accordance with his psychic inclination. It depends on the qualities or attributes that reign high in his mind. The result is that the same God is seen in different moods with different prime attributes. The same universe is seen perfectly in different forms.

Sphotam is what remains after we have removed everything that distinguishes one word (sound) from the other. That is why Sphotam is said to be the Cosmos of the sound. When a word comes about as the name of Sphotam devoid of its qualities, it becomes a cross-section of Sphotam with its qualities. With that it no longer remains Sphotam. Then whatever that divides it less and whatever that expresses it so closely becomes an ideal name for it. That is Aum. Only that.

The definiteness that we see in the relation of Aum to its sound and meaning seems to be true in the case of God and this universe.

There should be a sign for every kind of imagination and sound. Such signs of sound (mantras) were created by the sages in their deep meditation. They represent their imaginations of God and this universe and generate a sense of meaning as far as possible.

Aum indicates the Brahma. Similarly, the other signs of sound signify God in His various aspects. They all contribute to our meditation of God and in our attaining wisdom.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Rahul M wrote:there was a book called dhanurshastra which must have dealt with these things.

there were probably more than one book with the same name. The one I'm talking about was written in the early medieval period.
knowledgeable folk, brihaspati ji, airavat ji et al, abhi_g ji, are any of such books available now ?

manuals that carry knowledge of Indian martial culture before they were influenced by the arabs and the turks ?
how about this one?

Dhanurveda

Along with specs for bows, arrows and archers, it has a few guidelines on war.

negiji, I used to have Scientific American special issue on the compound bow. Will try to locate it.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Abhi_G wrote:RamaY ji, that photo of the "tibetan" archer from wiki is not of a person of tibetan origin. Seems to me to be an American Indian.
Thank you Abhi-ji. I did copy it from Wiki...
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Abhi_Gji,
Was always a bit sceptical about the "deha-lakshanams". But, I think for "chakravarty/rajchakravartin" there are some supposed signs. Certain symbols that appear on the skin of the forehead (like palm-lines), lotus or dwipa-shikha, etc., symbol of an umbrella or flag on the palm, lotus or chattra on the soles of the feet, length of arms, etc. But I do not remember these very well. Have to ask the "kula-guru" :)
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

ChandraS

Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ChandraS »

<Begin note of appreciation>

Everyone posting in this thread, please accept my wholehearted thanks for a very constructive and knowledgeable discussion being carried on. I have learnt a lot and continue learning newer things from your posts. For anyone wondering, why I am not posting a lot on this thread? Well two reasons - Firstly I was pretty busy with work commitments recently and didn't have much time to actively follow the discussions here, although I did log in a few times and checked to see if things were on track as I had promised to the admins. Secondly, I am an ignoramus when it comes to all things listed in the thread title. This thread is my way to get to know what's out there and to dig deeper based on things that catch my interest! I have already bought the books on Indian philosophy recommended by shaardula saar and will start on them soon.

Lastly, my first post still stands and my laser designator is fully functional too :D RoE for this thread Any members wanting to participate in the discussions here are most welcome and are kindly requested to read this post before you post.

</end note>
ramana
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

suryag
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by suryag »

I once read somewhere that each avatar of Vishnu was somehow related to the evolution of life on earth,
matsya - signifies aquatic life
kurma - amphibious organisms
varaha - animals
narasimha - humans with animal instincts
vamana - more refined humans(though short)
and so on. What is the take of learned gurus here ?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

yes, this similarity with broad evolutionary stages have been ong obsreved. The Geeta-govindam sloka version of the list is actually wonderful to read (and sing, as far as I remember in "joti" taal). Starts with the refrain "Keshava dhrita .....roopa/Jaya jagadisha hare"

But, correct me if I am wrong - the order goes
"abayabheena" - protozoa/prion
"meena/matsya" - fish - greater adaptation of animal forms to water
"kurma" - amphibians - beginning of animal forms leaving the water for land
"varaha" - land animals who do not go back to the sea, but still favours the water in the form of prefernce for mud
"nrisingha" - transition to hominids
"vamana" - early hominids who were shorter than modern humans (but what about Giganticus, Erectus etc- )
"parashurama" - axed, tool making humans but still purely a hunter
"rama" - the warrior, archer human
"balarama" - the agrarian human
"Krishna" - the political, social organizational, human
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SandeepA »

brihaspati wrote: "abayabheena" - protozoa/prion
"meena/matsya" - fish - greater adaptation of animal forms to water
"kurma" - amphibians - beginning of animal forms leaving the water for land
"varaha" - land animals who do not go back to the sea, but still favours the water in the form of prefernce for mud
"nrisingha" - transition to hominids
"vamana" - early hominids who were shorter than modern humans (but what about Giganticus, Erectus etc- )
"parashurama" - axed, tool making humans but still purely a hunter
"rama" - the warrior, archer human
"balarama" - the agrarian human
"Krishna" - the political, social organizational, human
Never heard of abayabheena. Google search shows up nothing either. Can you throw more light
ramana
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

John Snow is resident expert on Gita Govinda .Lets see.
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by suryag »

^^^ Wasnt Balarama the avatar of seshnag, just like Lakshmana?
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

The ten Avatars of Vishnu have mildly differing versions. Some which have Balrama has the avatar and some have Krishna.
Some have Buddha and some dont

Every version agrees on Kalki :mrgreen:
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

SandeepA wrote:
brihaspati wrote: "abayabheena" - protozoa/prion
"meena/matsya" - fish - greater adaptation of animal forms to water
"kurma" - amphibians - beginning of animal forms leaving the water for land
"varaha" - land animals who do not go back to the sea, but still favours the water in the form of prefernce for mud
"nrisingha" - transition to hominids
"vamana" - early hominids who were shorter than modern humans (but what about Giganticus, Erectus etc- )
"parashurama" - axed, tool making humans but still purely a hunter
"rama" - the warrior, archer human
"balarama" - the agrarian human
"Krishna" - the political, social organizational, human
Never heard of abayabheena. Google search shows up nothing either. Can you throw more light
What evolutionary form would Lord Kalki take ??
Karkala Joishy

Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Karkala Joishy »

brihaspati wrote:yes, this similarity with broad evolutionary stages have been ong obsreved. The Geeta-govindam sloka version of the list is actually wonderful to read (and sing, as far as I remember in "joti" taal). Starts with the refrain "Keshava dhrita .....roopa/Jaya jagadisha hare"

But, correct me if I am wrong - the order goes
"abayabheena" - protozoa/prion
"meena/matsya" - fish - greater adaptation of animal forms to water
"kurma" - amphibians - beginning of animal forms leaving the water for land
"varaha" - land animals who do not go back to the sea, but still favours the water in the form of prefernce for mud
"nrisingha" - transition to hominids
"vamana" - early hominids who were shorter than modern humans (but what about Giganticus, Erectus etc- )
"parashurama" - axed, tool making humans but still purely a hunter
"rama" - the warrior, archer human
"balarama" - the agrarian human
"Krishna" - the political, social organizational, human
Amazing! I never thought of thr avataras in this way! :shock:
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by samuel »

Not sure where to post this, but I am enjoying immensely:

http://sudharma.epapertoday.com/

PS: Also, http://www.newsonair.com/nsd_lang.html
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by putnanja »

http://www.indianresurgence.com/history1.htm
...
It has been mentioned earlier that just prior to the Mahabharata War, a very rare event of three eclipses occurring within a lunar month took place: a lunar eclipse followed by a solar one and then another lunar eclipse. According to the text of Mahabharata, the solar eclipse occurred just 13 days after the first lunar eclipse. Dr. S. Balakrishna of NASA, USA, has searched all eclipse pairs, a lunar eclipse followed by a solar eclipse after 13 days, that took place from 3300 B.C. to 700 B.C., using the Lodestar pro-software. He found that nearly 672 eclipse pairs have occurred within the said period, out of which 27 pairs have been found to have less than 14 days time gap. And according to Dr. Balakrishna, the eclipse pair of 2559 is the best match with the description given in the text of Mahabharata. But according to Dr. Kalyanaraman, the eclipses occurred in 3067 B.C.- the lunar eclipse on 29th September at the asterism Krittika and the solar eclipse on 14th October at the asterism Jyestha.

Researcher Dr. P. V. Holay examined 6 planetary configurations given in the Mahabharata and concluded that the War began on 13th November, 3143 B.C. But Dr. K. S. Raghavan and his coworker Dr. G. S. Sampath Iyengar, using the Planetarium software came to the conclusion that the Kurukshetra War began on 22nd day of November, 3067 B.C. (according to the present Gregorian calendar). Professor Dr. Narahari Achar of the University of Memphis, USA, also arrived at the same conclusion using the said Planetarium software. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman of the Saraswati River Research Centre, Chennai, found the estimates of Dr. K. S. Raghavan and Dr. Narahari Achar correct and, on that basis, calculated the dates of some other important events of Mahabharata. For example: Lord Krishna, on His final peace mission, set out for Hastinapur on 26th September, 3067 B.C. when the moon was at the asterism Revati. Lord Krishna arrived Hastinapur on 28th September, 3067 B.C., when the moon was at the asterism Bharani. The full moon and lunar eclipse at Krittika occurred on 29th September, 3067 B.C.
...
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Re: Dicussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

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