Indian Education System

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Virupaksha »

shiv wrote: Spot on.

So why are ALL children forced into a system in which they are told that "chances of carving out a decent living out of these while still being mediocre is high when compared to humanities or commerce.". It is simply not true.

Every year 75% of people do not make the grade and even those who make the grade do not continue as you point out.

Why then do most schools eliminate all subjects other than Physics. Chem. Maths and Biology after Class X? Why does every school promise "extra coaching" for IIT/Medical entrance exams?
here you are talking about ivy league to above average students and their issues.
It is because these lines are thought to be the only lines available by parents and children (to make a decent living) and the system exploits this mistaken belief to make money. It is high time some reality is injected into the system

1) Failing X should not be a cutoff point for further education
2) Failing to get Engineering or medicine does not indicate that you cannot make a career or a decent living.
Shiv,
I will never even in my dreams say (2). though for (1), isnt it true today, particularly as we define education?

As I have been saying, the middle class of India will catch a fancy for any xyz stream as long as it gives a good chance that the kid will grow up doing xyz in the future too.

Today in the south and the west parts(excluding gujarat) of India, those streams are engineering and medicine.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Education System

Post by RayC »

Definitely Sir, the discussion is about people like you, me and people in Brf. I know that Shiv will call it the difference between elite and non-elite, but the simple problem is this. Tomorrow say by "magic" every person of the age 20-25 becomes a graduate, what then will the graduates do? Do we have enough jobs for satisfying all of the persons who are that age?
Becoming a graduate, in the Indian society unfortunately is taken as 'coming of age'. Even if one is jobless, it gives an individual a sense of 'self respect' - a psychological boost!

We have to de-glamorise the 'fancy' professions and make all professions appear as worthwhile. They must start after Class XII and without any cut off but on aptitude tests. For instance, Hotel Management, Travel and Tourism and other vocational entries!

Not everyone wants to be a Doctor, Engineer or an MBA.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

ravi_ku wrote: As I have been saying, the middle class of India will catch a fancy for any xyz stream as long as it gives a good chance that the kid will grow up doing xyz in the future too.

Today in the south and the west parts(excluding gujarat) of India, those streams are engineering and medicine.

ravi what I have been trying to say is an extra "meta-layer" of information over and above what you have stated.

In India today (as it was yesterday) it is widely (too widely) believed that only engineering or medicine guarantee a secure future. This causes a rush towards engg and medicine. That rush is welcomed by business people starting educational institutions that offer these courses. But even after all these redundant seats in dubious engineering and medical colleges get filled up - there are hundreds of thousands of children left over.

In reality many of these "left over" children end up doing far better than the engineering or medical graduates who have clawed their way through extra tuitions to get a seat in a third rate college in the mistaken impression that engineering and medicine offer a better future. The "leftovers" opt for one of a multitude of courses that offer a good future (in today's India) starting from accountancy, animation. media, management, law, architecture, banking, pharmacy, biochemistry/microbiology, hotel management, civil aviation, merchant navy etc. There are even top class five year fine arts courses that lead to successful careers in art, media and broadcasting. In my generation these were all called "second rate lines" by people who were successful in getting engineering or medicine. Even if they are not actively called by this name, the same attitude exists even today - and that attitude does not stand up to scrutiny.

A lot of engineers for example end up choosing engineering lines like silk technology, agricultural engineering and ceramic technology. The IT boom ensured that these people got jobs in the IT sector. But the same IT boom also ensured that BSc Computer science and BSc Microbiology graduates also got jobs with the same Infosys and Wipro who were gobbling up the Agro engg and Ceramic tech engineers. What mattered was the open job market and economy and not the fact that a person was an engineer.

The mindset that assumes that medicine and engineering are still the best choices is wrong on the following counts

1) It is actually wrong because they are not the only two choices for a successful career.
2) The belief that they are the best is so widespread that it creates a dynamic that allows the operation of third rate tuition classes, and third rate engineering and medical colleges "to fulfil demand"
3) The belief that they are the best makes a humongous number of children (via peer pressure/parental pressure) to opt for engineering or medicine even when they do not have the aptitude, and the combination of third rate college and indifferent student produces third rate professionals.
4) High school/Junior colleges cater to the "demand" by eliminating all possibility of allowing children to opt for alternative careers by rigidly enforcing a curriculum that is suitable only for an engineering or medical course.

The problem here is at multiple levels and each level adds to a vicious circle that gives medicine and engineering an aura that they should not monopolize and equally give a negative picture of alternative career choices that rank right up there with medicine and engineering.

If you follow the career counselling pages in the media in India , and see what career counsellors say in pre-entrance exam talks year after year after year - it is clear that engineering and medicine are being hyped up more than they deserve to the detriment of other fields. Engineering and medicine even in third rate institutions suck up a whole lot of children who actually have an interest in other fields and would do well. I can cite many examples but will start with one. A young lady - a classmate of one of my children was deeply interested in astrophysics and her only desire was to do a science degree and join the Indian Institute of Astrophysics in Bangalore. But her parents said "No. Astrophysics has no future. It will not get as good a groom as doctor. So they paid a hefty donation and put her into one of the third rate medical colleges that surround Bangalore. These people did not lack money. They are sheep who go with the tide that says "The best lines are medicine and engineering". Such is the aura that medicine and engineering have in India. This girl will never practice medicine and India has probably lost a keen astrophysicist to the mindless social pull of Medicine/Enginering.
munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Indian Education System

Post by munna »

negi wrote:Munna what is the stink you are :(( whining about ? ; it is great that you pursued a career of your choice and are doing well but that does not mean you speak crap about Engg or medicine .

for instance what do you mean by My question is what is so special with an Engineering degree and unprofessional with a maths degree or Economics degree?

Where and who made such a claim in the first place , you are merely assuming things for whatever reasons. :mrgreen:
The stink that I am talking about is coming from the stagnated education system that we continue to propagate, condone and even defend by logic like we are Indians onlee and we are destined to be IT/Managerial coolies. I do not say things for whatever reasons and when I made the given point I was talking about my experiences and the social attitudes. I thought that with the level of exposure and enlightenment that one comes across on this forum, people will be much more receptive of newer and different ideas but it seems that people find defendng their dogmatic positions much more important than listening and arguing for change!
Last edited by munna on 01 Jul 2009 18:53, edited 1 time in total.
munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Indian Education System

Post by munna »

ravi_ku wrote: Good, you have removed the most important part of my post. I said create the jobs and the $exy ness will follow.
If the message in the market is that BA(H)/Bsc is a productive stream too then you shall find those guys competing for the jobs in GS, BCG and BAHs of the world but the moment you stigmatize one stream and elevate the others you cartelize the job market. A simple case of market signalling only. I have shown you how BA(H) in other countries land A grade jobs but you have not told me why it should not be so in India? Jobs for BA(H)/Bsc are there just that we need to decartelize our recruitment system and let the engineers compete with others unlike today.
ravi_ku wrote: Absolutely nothing unprofessional about maths, economics, arts, whatever. The speciality of engineering degree is zimple only - more jobs.
A simple question will answer this. How many jobs exist in India where the number of decent applicats for a job are less than
10? Unless you go into phd levels for any discipline, do we have a shortage for ANY discipline. So why are we quibbling about people having a fancy for xyz discipline.
Again why does the applicant pool should be limited to engineers in non technical jobs. Like it or not we have created a license raj and still to come out of it when it comes to our education system.
ravi_ku wrote: Oxbridge or Ivy league graduates can aspire to be great finance guys and compete for the same jobs as engineers barring the tech fields. While in India having a BA(H) against your name automatically denigrates you vis a vis an engineer!
The reason is too zimple. For an avg student, what is the starting salary for BA(H) and an engineer. Dont talk about you know the "achievers". They will succeed anywhere. Where the avg graduate has a good job progression is the stream which gains the fancy
Again my question is why do we reward only one stream with jobs when the other stream are equally capable. Any BSc Maths or Physica can hold candle to an engineer in his quantitative skills yet when it comes to jobs you find engineers being preferred. Quota system in its worst form!

As in advertizing industry they say location, location and location. To open up the closed jobs for our kids we need to change attitudes, attitudes and attitudes. I have told you that barring niche tech jobs any decent BA(H)/Bsc guy can compete and outdo engineer in any field and with some experience can outdo them in tech too! We need to change our attitudes and not close off the job market for our young graduates and let engineers, mathematicians, physicists and economists compete together. There ARE JOBS for graduates but they are walled off by glass ceilings made up of our attitudes. I do not have a dog in the fight cause I have bypassed the system and have no egotistical motives, my only concern is to see our coming generations rule the waves and not be stunted by our myopic vision.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

Watch this 15 minute NDTV video.

It begs the question, "How many parents and teachers can guide children about career choices such as those in the video even before they do their X exam worrying that engineering and medicine make or break the world?"

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_p ... id=1116803
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Virupaksha »

shiv wrote: The mindset that assumes that medicine and engineering are still the best choices is wrong on the following counts

1) It is actually wrong because they are not the only two choices for a successful career.
2) The belief that they are the best is so widespread that it creates a dynamic that allows the operation of third rate tuition classes, and third rate engineering and medical colleges "to fulfil demand"
3) The belief that they are the best makes a humongous number of children (via peer pressure/parental pressure) to opt for engineering or medicine even when they do not have the aptitude, and the combination of third rate college and indifferent student produces third rate professionals.
4) High school/Junior colleges cater to the "demand" by eliminating all possibility of allowing children to opt for alternative careers by rigidly enforcing a curriculum that is suitable only for an engineering or medical course.
Shiv, let me do the math. All are wags only. The population of India is 110 crores with avg life span of 65 years. So around 2 crore children of the same age exist in India. How many engineering seats are there? AP, Karnataka, TN have the highest with total of 2.5 lakh among them.rest of india combined has that many seats. doctor have around 1 lakh seats all over India, i.e. a total of 6-7 lakh students can become engineers/doctors. A total combined percentage of 3-4.

Now does anybody in India think that there are enough doctors in India? Even with all the fancy attached to it, no. Engineering has less "leftover demand" comparatively, I agree.

I think you and I are looking at it from different perspectives. I am looking at higher education as a means to get jobs where as you are looking at it as a goal in itself. So from my perspective, because there are good jobs in E/M(engineering/medical), there is demand for higher education in them, which is being used by many spurious businessmen. How to break this particular cycle? My solution is create more "core" jobs in other streams. The spurious businessmen will exist but instead of being in E/M, they will move onto these newer streams.
If you follow the career counselling pages in the media in India , and see what career counsellors say in pre-entrance exam talks year after year after year - it is clear that engineering and medicine are being hyped up more than they deserve to the detriment of other fields. Engineering and medicine even in third rate institutions suck up a whole lot of children who actually have an interest in other fields and would do well.
Those particular children are losing out, but nobody else is. Which decent educational institution's seats in any stream are vacant? If there are, I agree it is a problem, else I do not see the issue in it.

I have seen people paying more than 10000 to get into nurse training because the institute had connections to some hospitals. For which job in India are we finding shortage of decent applicants? For all the hullaboo about it, DRDO had a shortage of engineers!! during the boom period recently.
I can cite many examples but will start with one. A young lady - a classmate of one of my children was deeply interested in astrophysics and her only desire was to do a science degree and join the Indian Institute of Astrophysics in Bangalore. But her parents said "No. Astrophysics has no future. It will not get as good a groom as doctor. So they paid a hefty donation and put her into one of the third rate medical colleges that surround Bangalore. These people did not lack money. They are sheep who go with the tide that says "The best lines are medicine and engineering". Such is the aura that medicine and engineering have in India. This girl will never practice medicine and India has probably lost a keen astrophysicist to the mindless social pull of Medicine/Enginering.
Let me ask you from a completely different perspective. Was the seat in that institute left vacant? I think we know the answer, it is no. If not, who won who lost? The girl lost but India lost nothing!!! Before that day, there would have been X number of astrophysicits, after she bowed out of the race, there are going to be X number of equally decent astrophysicists in India.(though if she is a genius, it is a different issue. Our system is built for cutting down geniuses to size.)

The system is losing out on nothing, it is the individuals who are losing out.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4727
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Indian Education System

Post by putnanja »

Sangh schools score high in Orissa
The High School Certificate examinations in Orissa have thrown up a surprise result—hundreds of Saraswati Shishu Vidya Mandirs (SVM) have performed exceptionally well with 44 of the top 102 students coming from the Sangh Parivar-run school network. As many as seven of the top 10 ranks are from SVMs.

...
While critics harp at the saffronisation of little minds by the Sangh Parivar, parents seem to be happy with the performance of the Saraswati Shishu Vidya Mandirs that dot the towns and villages of Orissa. Pitabas Mehena, father of this year’s topper, Bibek Bishal Mehena, credits his son’s success to the meticulous planning of the teachers and the perfect synergy between students, parents and teachers. “Though the teachers get lower salaries than their counterparts in government-run high schools, no one can beat them when it comes to dedication towards their students. For them it is a mission,” said Mehena, a pharmacist in a government hospital.
...
...
Educationists agree that the emotional commitment of the teachers to the students in these schools is what differentiates them from the rest. “In government schools, teachers teach just for the sake of it. In Shishu Mandirs, they attach a lot of ethical value to the education,” said Dharanidhar Nath, president of Board of Secondary Examination, the body that conducts the HSC examination.


...
Good teachers make tremendous difference between a student succeeding and failing.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

ravi_ku wrote: How many engineering seats are there? AP, Karnataka, TN have the highest with total of 2.5 lakh among them.rest of india combined has that many seats. doctor have around 1 lakh seats all over India, i.e. a total of 6-7 lakh students can become engineers/doctors. A total combined percentage of 3-4.

<snip>

I am looking at higher education as a means to get jobs

These two quotes from your post sum up what I am trying to say. You say it yourself, but I believe you are not reading the significance of what you have yourself said.

You say that medicine and engineering provide jobs for 3-4 % of kids.

Does that mean that the remaining 96% of kids are without jobs? Do you believe that 96% of Indian children go without jobs? If you do - I have nothing further to say - we are not talking about the same India.

Even if you assume that 85% of Indian children get no jobs or lower paying jobs than doctors or engineers - it still leaves 10% of children (twice the number going to medicine/engineering) who get good careers comparable or exceeding medicine in engineering in salary and prospects (as lawyers/bankers/CA's/pharma/biotech/management/media/design/construction/software). It's just that those who do medicine and engineering don't notice what the "others" are doing and imagine that what they know about career choices is the timeless truth.

With the Indian system (parents, and even you in this case) insisting that medicine and engineering are the only route to a good future, there is clearly a blind spot to careers outside med/engg which is being ignored by capable and interested children because they do not know that they can make a career outside of medicine and engineering and they don't know that at least twice as many good jobs exist outside medicine and engineering.

The high school education system needs to take into consideration the fact that if X students go to medicine and engineering, at least 2X (probably more) get great employment outside these two fields. This statistic is completely ignored by the education system in India, which seeks to produce doctors and engineers in humongous numbers. (I will not branch off into the tangential topic of how useless it is to produce MBBS grade doctors in large numbers - that is a separate topic that India the nation will pay for in due course.)

You get a child approaching X standard and he is told "Either you become a doctor or engineer, or will not have a good job, so you must score high marks in PCMB (Physics, Chemistry, Math, Biology)". This is clearly false and misleading. The child should be informed that at least twice as many good jobs and careers are available outside medicine and engineering that do not require PCMB. However India schools are geared up only to produce the sort of "worker ants" the British, and later independent India wanted for its industries and hence PCMB and an education to create worker ants rule the roost and all careers outside of medicine and engineering are not just ignored, they are not even visible to anyone except by accident.

Why are all children being forced through the venturi of PCMB when twice as many jobs are available without needing to study that particular combination of subjects in the detail that is forced on all kids now? Why are you choosing to believe the myth of superiority of job prospects in medicine and engineering when those jobs represent less than 50% of the good jobs available? I see only denial in the face of facts that are visible wherever you go in India. The problem is in the system but more of that below.

Which decent educational institution's seats in any stream are vacant? If there are, I agree it is a problem, else I do not see the issue in it.
The key word is "decent". Part of the education debate is the humongous numbers of non-decent educational institutions where seats do not get filled and those that do get filled are filled by children who do not realise that they could do better by staying outside the indecent rat race of "medicine and Engineering" which has spawned these faltu colleges in the first place. If you create "demand" by saying that "being fair complexioned is good" - any manufacturer of "fairness creams" will get some business. If you create "demand" by saying that only medicine and engineering are good career choices, any faltu college will get some students who are misled.

I have seen people paying more than 10000 to get into nurse training


The figure is more often 50,000. All nursing colleges must be affiliated to a hospital. Every two bit hospital starts a nursing college and earns Rs 50,000 in donation per student for 50 students and have free workers to boot. A well worn joke that does the rounds is If you have one spare room - start a nursing college. If you have two spare rooms, start a pharmacy college. If you have three spare rooms, start a dental college. . This is not about careers for the students. It is about a business model and diversification for hospital owners.

But let us stick to jobs that are equal to or better paying than engineering or medicine. there are loads of those and one does not even have to slog like student doctors and engineers do. Most Indians in education, and many on this forum do not even know about that and hence insist that only Medicine and engineering get the best jobs. At best this is misinformation.
ravi_ku wrote:
Those particular children are losing out, but nobody else is.
The system is losing out on nothing, it is the individuals who are losing out.
I find the above two statements both amusing and sad. It has echoes of the justification for allowing individual soldier deaths in Kashmir and individual terrorist deaths because they matter less to the system than doing something about the source of terrorism.

But when you sum up all the individuals - you see that they system itself is bad for allowing and justifying a huge number of individuals to suffer under cover of the same excuse.

In every single ("individual") case it is "only an individual" losing out something. When you have a system in which several million "individuals" are losing out on something or the other because of lack of information, lack of guidance, or because they have been conned you get a bad system. We are talking about the system of education in India where a huge number of individuals are being misled and conned, and a layer of educators and parents above them who are either deluding themselves or busy conning other people to make money (and keep their business model/system intact). In every instance the excuse is that it is OK for the individual to lose out as long as the system is maintained.

The system is the problem. It makes too many individuals suffer and lose out by giving false information, misleading guidance and third rate education, and then people within the system tell themselves that all is well. It is not.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Virupaksha »

shiv wrote:
Which decent educational institution's seats in any stream are vacant? If there are, I agree it is a problem, else I do not see the issue in it.
The key word is "decent". Part of the education debate is the humongous numbers of non-decent educational institutions where seats do not get filled and those that do get filled are filled by children who do not realise that they could do better by staying outside the indecent rat race of "medicine and Engineering" which has spawned these faltu colleges in the first place. If you create "demand" by saying that "being fair complexioned is good" - any manufacturer of "fairness creams" will get some business. If you create "demand" by saying that only medicine and engineering are good career choices, any faltu college will get some students who are misled.
So basically let us see what we are both saying. If educational institutions are divided into- decent and indecent.
i) NO decent educational institution's seat are left vacant.
ii) Indecent educational institution's in (xyz) engg/med streams are increasing at the cost of indecent educational institutions in other streams.

As long as (i) is fulfilled, i.e. we agree that we have maxed out our system's ability to produce "decent" graduates in ALL streams. now what are we exactly quibbling about?

So what if indecent engg/med seats are filled at the cost of other indecent seats of law/arts. So should we be happy that
tommorow indecent seats of law/arts are being filled instead of indecent engg/med? If (ii) is happening but not (i), I agree we have a BIG problem, but it is not the case. Both are happening.

Are we now saying that an indecent engg is better than indecent lawyer or vice versa? Is this what it is about?
Most Indians in education, and many on this forum do not even know about that and hence insist that only Medicine and engineering get the best jobs. At best this is misinformation.
Are those best jobs being filled with non-decent applicants?
The system is the problem. It makes too many individuals suffer and lose out by giving false information, misleading guidance and third rate education, and then people within the system tell themselves that all is well. It is not.
Should a third rate education in engg/med be replaced with third rate education in law/arts? is the problem that we are giving third rate education or is it about that we are giving third rate education in engg/med?

And this is what I am getting at. As long as (i) is fulfilled, I do not think (ii) is a problem, which needs our attention.

Edit: if (i) and (ii) are a truth table, then the problems are

i)no (ii)yes - need to reduce fancy for the xyz stream which has caught the fancy
i)yes (ii)yes - need to increase decent seats, case as it exists in India
i)yes (ii)no - better situation, need to increase decent seats
i)no (ii) no - tending towards better over all, but might require seat increase not overall but in some streams.
Last edited by Virupaksha on 02 Jul 2009 10:19, edited 1 time in total.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Virupaksha »

now please dont get me wrong. I know that there is a BIG BIG bias towards engg/med which in turn proliferates itself as third rate coaching centres, schools and colleges in engg/med. All I am saying is, that is NOT which is needed to immediately corrected. That would be looking at the wrong end.

The more important thing is getting more decent colleges in ANY field started. With the situation as it is today, I do not think that college will have any problem in filling the seats.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Singha »

I think you are right. its a shortage economy now. we shouldnt spend too highly from GOI funds on IIT/IISC (gold plated Panther tank) rather we need a solid mass of T-34 tanks (NIT/state engg colleges/good pvt colleges). the products of these colleges are also more likely to work in Yindia
than read barrons guide from 1st semester and 'contact' profs abroad. a lot of poor people have
tremendous work ethic and hunger. give them some tailwind and they will fly high.

as a parallel while Amirkhan was sharpening its knife and becoming the worlds largest industrial power (in scale) and domestic market in the period 1850-1925, the best univs and high technology was still very much in europe - england, germany, italy, france...
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Education System

Post by RayC »

What is important is the there has to be quality in education and character building, apart from building a healthy mind and body.

The bulk is at the School level.

If school level education improves, the academic and knowledge base of the population will improve.

Everyone cannot afford to pay for the current 'quality' education.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Singha »

indeed esp in medicine the scene is hopeless. dental seat cost 12 lacs and medical 30lacs - 1 crore in pvt.

only the really rich need apply.

atleast in engg for around 7 lacs u get in pvt college...and more govt run engg college than medical college perhaps.
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Education System

Post by vina »

we shouldnt spend too highly from GOI funds on IIT/IISC (gold plated Panther tank) rather we need a solid mass of T-34 tanks (NIT/state engg colleges/good pvt colleges). the products of these colleges are also more likely to work in Yindia
than read barrons guide from 1st semester and 'contact' profs abroad
Ouch baby !.. Bl**dy Ouch! Truth is all that is done only from 3rd year onree , esp after the 3 rd year end semester exams. Junta stays back in the hostel and "mugs" for GRE for a couple a weeks and goes write the exam , so that you are all ready to send "pre apps" and then send in the "apps" at the beginning of 4th year , and you are all set to fly out in time for fall semester at Massa after your 4th year.

But what goes around, comes around no ?. Some 10 , 15, 20 years later, after well into middle ages, and a paunch , wife and couple of brats, many folks do return to Yindia dont they?. Just make that return path easier and more alluring and all em ageing MUTU cats will come crawling back. You gain lot of "skills", "experiences " (snooty connoisseurs of fine wine anyone? :mrgreen: ) ,"contacts", "presentation" , "people skills" (much YumBeeYea skills reqd saar!) ityadi to do "vision" thing and giving "goli " thing along with solid engineering acumen no ?. After all, nothing sells by itself, you need to work the charm and massage it . After all, the key difference between the Yindians and Chinese is that Yindians (especially the "metro types" from the EyeEyeTees ) have the gift of the gab are silver tongued ityadi no (if you dont have it and are a nerd, you become a lab /research nerd , which is fine too).
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Education System

Post by negi »

By targeting the 'Engg/Medical' fraternity we are only looking at the 'symptoms' not the 'cause' per se.

Truth is as compared to any developed or even a developing country India has far more eligible candidates for a given 'job' be it science/humanities; heck the competition for commerce and 'humanities' too is at par with say IIT's (check out past 5 years cut offs for Sri Ram college of Commerce or even the humanities in St. Stephens ).

Yes in the past 10 years there has been a frenzy for the Engineering stream in particular (IT boom and perhaps $ to Rs conversion is a major factor there ) ; these same parents in the 50's,60's or even until late 80's were adamant about their kids joining the 'Govermund' services but the reforms in the 90's and high wages in the private industry did bring about the change of heart,..although my mother still :roll: when I talk to her about my new project :oops: (she wants me to somehow get into the Armed forces :) ).

One more plausible reason is as compared to other streams 'Engg' provides one far more 'readymade' career options than the other streams for while a guy with Btech can always apply for general courses like 'IAS',MBA or even specialized courses in Finance ;afaik folks from other streams (Commerce or Humanities) practically cannot switch over to the Engg courses without doing a Btech .

Infact I believe we all would agree a high number of Btech holders do write the CAT,GMAT and the JMET . The last I had checked both CAT and JMET are including more comlex problems in mathematics as the candidates are pushing the 99% barrier every year; I personally think this makes the playing field a bit tilted in the favor of the Btech degree holders. In comparasion GMAT paper is a cakewalk (although getting admission into a school of repute is a different matter altogether) .

here check the educational and work profile of 2009 IIMA batch
Students Profile So in 2008 75% of students were from Engg background which grew to 89% in 2009.

Now I don't think that after XII more than the 30/40% (this imo is an overestimate) of the students go for Engg stream; but the student profiles for the IIM's show that more than 75% of the intake is from the Engg stream.

And then very recently some of my friends from core Engg branches who took up MS in statistics and similar number crunching fundu stuff now work in wall street; and I know after a coupla years of work_ex these guys will crack the GMAT and go to IVY league only to return as some Acquisition and Merger guru .
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

After all, the key difference between the Yindians and Chinese is that Yindians (especially the "metro types" from the EyeEyeTees ) have the gift of the gab are silver tongued ityadi no (if you dont have it and are a nerd, you become a lab /research nerd , which is fine too).
But..but but...why need high faltung eye-eye-tee BaTech to do all that. Why not have a sprinkling of engg courses (like the physics for poets at massa univs) offered at IIMs for a generalized UG level program, targeted at the gifted for gab ;-) urbanites on to the MBA track and convert the old IITs with already existing infrastructure to build on to pure certified nerd onlee places for research. I have asked this before, and got only dilution of brand as an answer. Again caste system memes at work onree saar.
Jamal K. Malik
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 27 Mar 2009 23:03

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Jamal K. Malik »

Bill making free education fundamental right gets cabinet nod
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bill ... 730147.cms
Jamal K. Malik
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 27 Mar 2009 23:03

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Jamal K. Malik »

'Harassed' UAS student drinks poison in front of dean, dies
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 727001.cms
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Education System

Post by vina »

Bade wrote:But..but but...why need high faltung eye-eye-tee BaTech to do all that. Why not have a sprinkling of engg courses (like the physics for poets at massa univs) offered at IIMs for a generalized UG level program, targeted at the gifted for gab ;-) urbanites on to the MBA track


Because, gabbing alone doesn't work saar!. You need real solid money behind mouth no ?. Otherwise it will be all empty talk and no substance like Marketing types. So high falutin BaTech (I know how it is pronounced.. buttock , flip of Mutuck) is a pre requisite, saar, the basic requirement, the 'cake' if you will. Gab is just the icing on top of the cake!.
and convert the old IITs with already existing infrastructure to build on to pure certified nerd onlee places for research. I have asked this before, and got only dilution of brand as an answer. Again caste system memes at work onree saar.
Saar. Allah created diversity because he so willed it. If it werent for his wishes, the entire world would be nerds onree! All sorts of people need to go through the Madrassa grinder. The streams separate out later. Milk for milk and water for water onree!
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Education System

Post by RayC »

What has Allah got to do with this.

Have you over imbibed the Zam Zam?

I believe there is no reference to religion or politics to be made.

I am letting your post stand without editing since I am sure you are in a lighter mood!

I am sure Ram would also agree with Allah! After all, they are the same! Just different names!
vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Re: Indian Education System

Post by vsudhir »

Would be interesting to see student migration patterns this yr on fro the next few yrs into (and outta) massaland.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

Let me try again.

There is an absurd rush to get children into Engg/Medicine because parents and children have (for generation) believed that these are the only lines that will provide gainful employment.

The belief that only Engg/Medicine (and no other line) will provide gainful employment has actually skewed our schooling system into placing an undue emphasis of training children for engineering or medicine without having any mechanism to educate people that life exists outside engineering and medicine and at least as many high paying jobs exist outside engg/medicine.

Schools have a responsibility to guide and educate, but the schooling systems - be they CBSE, ICSE or state boards lay great emphasis on Physics, Chemistry, Math and Biology (PCMB) and conduct X std exams as an "elimination exam". The X std exam becomes a time of reckoning for many young teenagers. If they do well in PCMB - they can go ahead and do Engg or Medicine. If they don't do well - their hopes are dashed - they get no second chance.

Any child who does well in PCMB in one X std exam is not necessarily going to make a great engineer or doctor. Any child who does not do all that well in PCMB in the class X exam is not necessarily going to be incapable of being a doctor or an engineer.

A child who does well in PCMB in class X but is not very interested in engineering or medicine has no information on whether he can survive at all in life unless he forces himself to take up engineering or medicine. And another child, who has not done so well similarly does not have information on what is possible now that his hopes of entering med/engg college have been dashed by one silly Class X exam.

The Tenth (Class X) exam system is a ridiculous and biased imposition on young children because it is merely an elimination round that creates a caste system of children who can or cannot do medicine or engineering. It creates "winners" who do well and "losers" who have not done well. It does not guide any child (or his parent) that winners and losers in life are not decided by the Class X exam. It does not even give children (and parents) the information and choice that life exists outside engineering and medicine.

In fact a lot of these "winner" kids of class X go on to fill the pockets of owners of third rate colleges - who benefit the most from the system of ignorance and misinformation that creates a rush of children trying to get into engineering or medical college with no insight into any other way of making a good living. Children and parents learn almost by accident about what opportunities are available. This is a fully correctable situation.

While improving colleges is only one part of the solution, providing parents and senior school children with honest information and advice and changing a faulty school system that creates "engineers/doctors" and "failures" in class X needs equally urgent attention.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

If you look at what is known about ancient Indian education systems, you find that two curious facts stand out:

1) There was no system of examinations
2) There was no "guarantee of employment"

Both the examination system and guarantee of employment were instituted by the British for Brits in colonial Britain. For the illiterate, unwashed Brits a system of examination (preceded by education towards that exam) was devised. If he passed - he could get a job in the colonies. Or else he would labor on in cold rainy Britain. The same system was continued in India. A young British officer in India could pass further exams and then be promoted to the rank of deputy collector or collector or some other post.

After Britain lost a large percentage of its men in WW 1, the door was opened further for Indians to join the system. Those Indians who passed school would get some jobs - but if you had a BA - you could get a better job and a promotion. A lot of Indians whose lived in squalor saw opportunities in a British style education followed by a "government job". It was the government that held the exams and the government that gave the jobs.

Post independence India, under Nehru saw a massive expansion in infrastructure with the building of roads, railways, dams and industries and colleges to provide the manpower for all this. There was a great demand for engineers. My parents belonged to this generation (my parents generation would be "grandparents' generation" for many BRFites). For people of that generation there were two things that spelt "success"

1) Government job
2) Engineering or civil services (IAS/IPS etc)

"Doctor" was always less about money and more about respect and status in life.

But it was the 1960s and 1970s) that transformed the status of engineering and medicine in India. This was a period in which there were relatively few engineering and medical colleges in India (most had a good reputation back then :) ). This was the period when the baby boomers were taking charge of America and the labour government of the UK was massively expanding its health services.

Indian doctors were literally walking into Britain, and many passed exams to go to the US and by the 1970s we were reading articles about how the richest individuals in the US were doctors and dentists. The US too was sucking up engineers in droves. Engineering graduates were easily getting assistantships in US universities that enabled them to live as students in the US in a way that is not easy any more. A lot of Indian "lower middle class" families soon became financially sound by sending just one son to the US/UK if not more.

This set the stage for the popularity of engineering and medicine. People (in the west) started talking of "brain drain" - which was rubbish because if 10 brains went to the US India was producing 20 to replace them. The only thing required was an increase in number of colleges. And even as the rush of doctors from India was stemmed by both the UK and the US - the engineer tide increased massively around 1998-99 when the Y2K issue was at its peak and the IT boom started. That boom took a hit only in 2008-9 when recession hit the world.

It is only now that the reality of mass producing engineers or doctors is being looked at with some rationality. In 2009 there is a rush of kids holding engineering degrees trying to get an MTech seat in IIT - because jobs are more difficult to get. Most IIT graduates of the 60s and 70s held the MTech aspirant with contempt as an unemployable being.

But all this goes to show how we have moulded two or three generations of Indians into being "born employees". An employee can exist only if there is an employer. The employer is the risk raker - the entrepreneur. The employee goes to work and takes his monthly pay for granted. the employer cannot take the monthly income of his company/business for granted.

In India one frequently sees the people who are completely out of the "employee" circuit - who are net employers. For example, you meet the caterer who supplies meals for large numbers of people at weddings and other functions. His business in India is typically seasonal. In the wedding season, his order book is full. But when it is off season for marriages - he has no work or almost no work. This man adjusts his lifestyle to come with both employment with a good income and unemployment with little income. This is how all entrepreneurs and businessmen live. But this is completely lost on the generations of "employees" that our education system produces. At this time of recession I am finding a whole lot of people petrified at losing a job and being unemployed. The reality of life is that there are no guarantee of income for anyone, and employee can be guaranteed a monthly income only if there is an employer who takes the risks and smoothes out the financial ups and downs for his employees.

But nowhere is our education system geared towards teaching children about how the world works and why anyone should expect any guarantee that he will have "employment" if he does well in PCMB and becomes an engineer or doctor. It is just assumed to be so.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Virupaksha »

^^
What if the business fails? Do we today have any support system which caters to it? We have a situation where we broken down the traditional support systems in the name of modernity without replacing them. Risks can be taken mostly by people who have nothing to lose (that is why in US depression times are known as business incubating times) or who dont "die off" if they lose. How many people can succeed in their first business? Even infosys went through horrid times in late 1980s where partners bailed out. What is the system you have in India, if you lose out on your first business except running away from creditors?

I know that I might be stirring a hornet's nest but The destruction of the caste system + socialism in 50s has played a huge role in the destruction of business mentality of Indians. It acted as a support system where the society intermingled as clans. That the jews in nazi germany, the gujaratis, marwaris own a majority of business is not without a reason.

Every business will have ups and downs. When you have a downturn, what can you do? The clan system made sure that a personal risk was transformed into a clan's risk in those times thus providing the required cushion when liquidity becomes a problem.

Untouchability is a BIG problem, so if anyone is interested in lecturing me why caste system has to be removed, please spare the keyboard. The issue is about "social security" which has been destroyed without any replacement.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

Ravi you are completely correct in bringing up the "community of birth" (should you have called it caste?) equation in education because it forms a fundamental part of social behavior in India in a manner that is "common knowledge" but hardly acknowledged by the sociologists (such as there are) in India.

For example - in the school I went to (4 decades ago in Pune) it could be commonly observed that there was a tendency among South Indian Brahmins to gravitate towards the "engineering" and "medicine" side of things. The Bafnas, Lalwanis and Patels rarely chose Engineering or Medicine - they tended to go towards the "Arts" stream.

Those of us who went to the science side were taught to consider the "Arts" boys (wrongly as it turns out) as "not good students" - i.e people who were not as smart as those who went to the science stream. We were the clever clogs.

After school the science/engineering graduates tended to gravitate towards "Ferguson college" that had a reputation for more serious science as opposed the Arts boys who would get motorbikes and girlfriends and go to Wadia college.

The "motorbikes and girlfriends" should give you a hint. These "stupid" Arts boys tended to come from families that already had successful businesses. An education in Physics, Chemistry, Maths/Biology was a waste of time for them. They went to the "easier" arts route only to acquire as much education as they needed to successfully run and expand their family business/es.

On the other hand the South Indian and Maharashtrian Brahmin boys were all sons of engineers or other employees of Poona's industries. These parents were educating their sons to ensure that their sons also became future employees as engineers and doctors. Those sons would then get employed by the businesses/factories set up by the "stupid" arts boys' parents.

The knowledge to run a successful business, the meaning of profit and loss, the ability to recognize where the money is and tap into a market is "traditional knowledge" passed down in the business families in India. These families tend not to go wild about engineering or medicine. The "South Indian Brahmins" I referred to earlier traditionally have zero business knowledge. Their family backgrounds have given them the ability to read and learn, but zero knowledge of how to make and hold money. This fact is well known and openly discussed in India among a mixed crowd of Brahmins, Vysyas and OBCs (in an elite cocktail party, for example) . The Vysyas and OBCs with traditional business knowledge gently rib the Brahmins about their characteristics which include many good things but never the knowledge of how to make and hold money.

Yesterday I was attempting to do some backups on data DVDs and found that my DVD writer had conked out. I went off to SP road in Bangalore and anyone who is familiar with this place will know that it has hundreds of shops selling computer related items of any description. And guess what - a huge percentage of them are "Marwaris". They are like you and me, just people. They too have kids who go to school. but they do not (by and large) push their kids to the PCMB Engineering/Medicine line. In the old days their children would have had to make do with just a school education or if at all a degree was done - a BA. At least in this day and age their children can get a BBM that would be appropriate for the line they intend to follow.

So there is a "chicken or egg" situation relating to communities in India. If you come from a community that is not accustomed to the uncertainty and risk of a business environment - you are likely to opt for the education that gives a degree of certainty as a suitably educated employee (engineer/doctor). If you come from a community that has a centuries old tradition of business with its attendant risks and uncertainties - you are hardly likely to move into a technical line where you are employed by another businessman.

But this is gradually changing. People are crossing community lines even in terms of vocation and you are finding more and more non traditional vocations being followed by people from communities that had a "traditional occupation". Such admixture is good. It reduces monopolies and oligopolies, and brings in new brains. But for that to occur well the education system must be modified to reflect the various means by which people can make a living.
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Education System

Post by vina »

These families tend not to go wild about engineering or medicine. The "South Indian Brahmins" I referred to earlier traditionally have zero business knowledge
Not quite true. A lot of S. Indian brahmin communities were business oriented, like Tirunelveli Brahmins, some Thanajavur types a lot of Kerala types, the West Coast of KA , all were business types.

But yeah, it was more "community" oriented and firsta and foremost, it was knowledge and then acquriing and holding wealth in certain communities. Now that is blurring.
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shaardula »

it is only appropriate that this discussion is in education thread.

exams are not the problem, the fixed time and common title is. in this scheme what does somebody who is a sslc pass guarantee? if one only needs to get 35/100 to graduate to the next class and absorb material taught in that class, then what is the remaining content worth 65% of the marks for? learning benchmarks are incredibly low and totally unnatural. but beyond that i will not begrudge modern schools too much.

contrast this with how marwadi school of hard money works. one kid from a remote village arrives to the family of an established business. he works at at all associated departments of that business, including loading and stocking maal. typical aprenticeship is about 10 years(i know not one marwadi who has been an apprentice for more that period). in that period he learns local market, accounting, money, contacts, relationships, customers etc etc. once hez learnt, he does his own thing. and then he gets other apprentices. ofcourse once your father is established the son has it much easier, but even he has to go through apprenticeship irrespective of the degrees he earns. father wont give give a free run just because he is the ladla with a fancy degree. no school can test and train in decision making like real world.

even in modern schooling that produce engineers and doctors in bulk, i am willing to bet that rarely does somebody who goes through it like clock work and is detached does anything good. all the good people have some sort of a connect with atleast one teacher, who has sparked their curiosity or interest. just mastering texts you are unlikely to do much.

there was recently a proposal to let the national labs graduate some kids. i am actually in favour of this. they have to take some evening classes but nothing like a learning on the job.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

shaardula wrote: there was recently a proposal to let the national labs graduate some kids. i am actually in favour of this. they have to take some evening classes but nothing like a learning on the job.

India is grossly short of postgraduate medical training seats and an MBBS is just not good enough. One proposal to change this was to allow designated private hospitals who had the credentials to impart training in a 3 year course called the DNB - Diplomate of the National board. The training demands and curriculum of the DNB is as exacting as the Master's degree in postgraduate medicine. But DNB has not taken off.

Guess why?

Medical colleges who award Masters degrees feel a "threat" from DNBs and feel that DNBs are devaluing their Msters degrees. So they hit back by not hiring any DNBs. That devalues the DNB and fewer people want to do the DNB. The net result is a lower number of postgraduate trained doctors on the ground in India while the "market" for students paying lakhs to get Masters degrees is maintained. This is protectionism at the cost of the country.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Singha »

and I have seen doctors have a kinship among their own kind far more than other professions and keep their juniors in a state of perpetual panic and fear bordering on the threshold of wetting their pants. take a while to rise to the Inner Circle I guess, but life is sure good once you 'get in' , else its a real doghouse I guess.
Rahul Mehta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2577
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Ahmedabad, India --- Bring JurySys in India
Contact:

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Singha wrote:and I have seen doctors have a kinship among their own kind far more than other professions and keep their juniors in a state of perpetual panic and fear bordering on the threshold of wetting their pants. take a while to rise to the Inner Circle I guess, but life is sure good once you 'get in' , else its a real doghouse I guess.

Singha,

The most nepotic profession in India is not medicine as you say, not politics as many think, but law and judiciary.

And yes, nepotism in medicine runs amok and lately increased because of self financed medical colleges. The solution is to ban self financed medical colleges (I support self financed non-medical colleges) and make admission strictly merit based. And to reduce control of seniors over juniors, interviews should be abolished and testing should be strictly based on written exams. And doctors should elect MCI chief DIRECTLY rather than have representative system (as reps sell out and elect scumbags like Ketan Desai). And the MCI should also have procedure to replace MCI Chief. Further, citizens should have procedures to control MCI.

These are some of the solutions I propose. What solutions do you propose to reduce nepotism in medicine business and reduce fear of seniors in juniors?

.
Jamal K. Malik
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 27 Mar 2009 23:03

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Jamal K. Malik »

IIM Shillong introduces prog to combat downturn
IIM 's know how to cash in downturn too. Good!
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Education System

Post by vina »

Cross posting..

Hmm. Start up hedge funds are getting funded. Check this out

In particular, this particular Madrassa graduate has raised $1b . Lot of other Yindoo names in the Bloomberg list.

That particular Madrassa Grad, after BuTech, did a PeeYechhDee from U.C Berkeley no less, was an ass prof, researcher it seems before the "dark side" (lure of "filthy lucre") turned him it seems. Sure to get the likes of "Madrassa Graduates should become Hafeez and Get PeeYecchDee onree or should be shot" kind of Ayatollahs like Bade Saar's Bee Pee very up onree. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Education System

Post by negi »

Applied science BSc courses may be axed
Ironically, soon after taking charge, Sibal had reflected on the poor research coming out of India. Now, he will have to decide if these courses should be withdrawn. If he accedes to the recommendation, students will have to go back to the old days of a composite BSc course. Among several other courses, forensic science, information technology, bioinformatics, nanotechnology and polymer sciences will be wound up.

In a report titled Re-structuring Post-School Science Teaching Programmes, the three science academies stated: ``Courses in highly specialised subjects like bio-technology, bioinformatics, computer applications, nanotechnology, nanobiotechnology, etc should not be allowed at school and undergraduate levels.'' The docket handed over a week ago to Sibal was drawn up after top scientists and educationists met to discuss the issue and concluded that ``BSc in narrow disciplines is detrimental''.
Raja Bose
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19477
Joined: 18 Oct 2005 01:38

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Raja Bose »

Raghu bhai madrassa-wale was at Courant so thats probably where the 1st seeds of darkness were sown into his soul :(( Courant despite trying to be a chi-chi Mathematics place actually has plenty of clued-in CS fellows (however, so of them are plain insane).

On another note, wiki article states that Raghu bhai attended his madrassa as a NTSE scholar. There is no specific effect of being an NTSE scholar on getting into IIT (except it might pay part of the fees) hain ji? The only time their stipend covered my annual fees was during college though it was after the 50% 'higher income level' deduction. :evil:

Still remember UN Singh (who used to write those maths books for NCERT iirc) interrogating shivering ol' me during NTSE final interview about some stuff I claimed I didn't know and through patient questioning over next 10 minutes pried out all the answers from my frozen lips - then admonishing me as to why I told him before, that I didnt know the answer! :oops:
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Education System

Post by RayC »

Shiv,

Whatever you may say, Wadia had the sizzlers and Fergusson has the speckys!

Each to his own ways! :rotfl:
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Education System

Post by shiv »

RayC wrote:Shiv,

Whatever you may say, Wadia had the sizzlers and Fergusson has the speckys!

Each to his own ways! :rotfl:
:D True. Ferguson was full of nerds. But to be fair - I think Poona had (has?) the prettiest girls in the world. One just had to step out of Ferguson college to see them.
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

vina wrote:Cross posting..
That particular Madrassa Grad, after BuTech, did a PeeYechhDee from U.C Berkeley no less, was an ass prof, researcher it seems before the "dark side" (lure of "filthy lucre") turned him it seems. Sure to get the likes of "Madrassa Graduates should become Hafeez and Get PeeYecchDee onree or should be shot" kind of Ayatollahs like Bade Saar's Bee Pee very up onree. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
People who have done their minimal service in the trenches as researcher and ass prof :mrgreen: (reminds me of someone at the madarassa we used to call ass-subs) can be pardoned at least when compared to kota-to-madarassa-to-dalalst types, no ?
Stan_Savljevic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3522
Joined: 21 Apr 2006 15:40

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Thought I will post here a report I wrote five or so years back.... Long read, looking for discussion. I circulated it very locally and things died down at that point.
FUNDAMENTAL RESEARCH: THE ILLS THAT PLAGUE IITM

An institution of educational importance has to synergistically combine the three facets that are associated with higher learning in the basic and engineering sciences: research, teaching and industrial partnership. Otherwise, such an institution will become vulnerable to the forces that alienate it from scientific advancement and progress and make it susceptible to the prospects of being overtaken by other countries and institutions. This knowledge was an open secret in the last few millennia in India, as can be ascertained from the development and strategic importance associated with places such as Nalanda and Taxila. However the glory days of this long bygone past has been replaced with a detestable “also-ran” tag to our educational institutions.

With the Government of India (GoI) proposing the conversion of a few existing universities to the IIT status, we study the “health” of the existing IITs, with particular focus on the dynamics of research, teaching and industrial partnership, at IIT Madras. In this personal montage, we recall a few of the “ills” that plagued us (my classmates) when we were undergraduate students at the Department of Electrical Engineering, IIT Madras. This could be thought of as a reflection on our past, given that, many of us have now graduated with an M.S and a few of us have gone on to complete a Ph.D in our chosen fields.

This is by no means a report of criticism, but one with a goal of providing honest feedback to the authorities concerned towards the goal of making OUR ALMA-MATER even better than the state it was in, when we left it. Nor, is it a rebuke to the department of Electrical Engineering, as almost all of these ills abound every department that we have come across, by talking to friends and hostel-mates in these departments. Moreover, a few of us, with the hunger to pursue fundamental research have chosen not to return (at least not now) to guide our alma-mater towards this goal. The reasons for this are manifold. We elucidate some of the issues on this sensitive topic and short and long term solutions for a few issues, with an adaptability to correct our stated positions, if addressed in a ratiocinative way. We start with the most important issue,

1) Quality of students: While it is well accepted that the JEE has brought in extremely good quality undergraduate students, the same cannot be said of GATE. Exceptions to this rule do happen once in a while, but unless there are good quality students pursuing fundamental research, no amount of intellectual coaxing from the faculty can lead a mediocre student to greatness. With the current software/MBA boom, it is highly unlikely that most graduating undergraduate students will stay back, unless they like what they are doing and do not feel short-changed in the process. Towards this one has to increase the (to be continued after the Update …)

Update since the last editing: It is now patently clear that even the “standards” of JEE are slipping with qualified students acting as force-multipliers of the Kota-business model. Thus it is imperative on the part of the JEE admissions committee to diversify their selection criteria from a rote regurgitation of facts and “concepts” that would make a B.Sc. graduate feel dumb to that of indirectly deducing the long-term potentials of a student. A good mix of students who would continue to pursue Engineering, or pursue fundamental research in Engineering and Sciences, would become managers in the Technology industry, or would enter administrative positions such as the IAS is ideal for any Tier-1 University. Unfortunately, the JEE has thrown candidates who are skewed at one end of the spectrum.

2) (contd) Financial benefits for students pursuing research: The financial benefits that IITs offer (around Rs. 10,000 per month) maybe sufficient for making the ends of single students meet, but for students with a family to support, it may be too much of a financial stress. A compromise that some students seek is a “technical industrial position” that pays at a reasonably comfortable level. It may be assumed that students with ‘drive’ will indeed get back to do a Ph.D. once their financial situations permit it. The hard reality of life however is that forces such as marriage, family, settled life etc. would dissuade most students who postpone a Ph.D. from enrolling in the same at a later stage. All this forcefully extols the virtues of “going with the flow.”

Short term Solution: Establishment of alumni funds to reward students pursuing Ph.D. on par with current industry salaries. Establishment of fellowships/scholarships with a great financial incentive and renewals (of the scholarships) based on the students’ progress.

Long term Solution: Alumni funds and active involvement of GoI and state governments in promoting fundamental research in the basic and engineering sciences.

3) Grants: Given that technological advancement and fundamental research in India is still on the backburner (due to the lack of primary literacy and affordability of a square meal for a significant percentage of the population), absence of agencies similar to the NSF, DARPA, ONR etc. is one of fundamental concern to prospective faculty members. A comparison of DARPA with our very own DRDO is unfair, as the freedom to perform research within a broad framework (that is implicit at NSF/DARPA) is usually absent and is more guided by problem-fixing in funded/existing projects. Even assuming significant grants for fundamental research (like in Europe) it would take at least a few decades to catch up with the US. An absence of such a possibility only lengthens the time-span between now and the day we catch up with the US and other European countries.

Long term Solution: Alumni funds can only go a particular distance in catching up. However in the absence of a policy change at the GoI level (which is likely to be the case for a long while given the GoI’s responsibilities at the primary education level), alumni funds is probably the only way to offset this shortfall. And alumni will not donate their hard-earned income unless they are made to feel a part of the decision-making process. The IIT administration has to trade off its autonomy with the amount of feedback and participation received from the alumni.

Update: Alumni funding has not caught up to the level expected. However, to be fair to GoI and alumni, the primary cause for woe is actually the lack of a significant number of qualified students pursuing Ph.D. that could fully utilize what the GoI has sanctioned.

4) Emoluments for an academic position: While some applicants looking for an academic position would consider emoluments to be a secondary or even a tertiary issue, the fact that academic positions pay less than what an MBA or an MS/Ph.D. can earn in the industry would certainly dissuade a good fraction of the candidates from pursuing the academic route. It is hard to ascertain what percentage of possible candidates would change their mind if better salaries are made available, but it would be great in the long run if academic positions are monetarily as attractive as industrial positions for it would encourage competition among the population that could shift either way.

Long term Solution: Establishment of sponsored chairs and professorships, industry sponsored positions, alumni sponsored positions etc. Tenureships and higher wages on the line of American universities could help in competition and benefit the institution as a whole. The possibility of the faculty paying themselves from their grants (like in the US) upto a certain limit and upon independent verification by a body within the IIT.

Update: The GoI set-up Sixth Pay Commission re-evaluation exercise seems to have come in as a temporary “boon” to those who are employed at the IITs. While the positives have been stated, the negative has been that the pay commission’s recommendation has not been implemented for a small sub-set of the GoI employees, including the faculty, staff and research students of the IITs. Needless to say, most of the states have also proportionately increased the pay of their state government employees leaving the IIT faculty in a unique, but weird position. If the education sector, which is the backbone of any country’s progress, is treated so step-motherly when compared with other sectors such as the Railways, Administration etc., and even if unavoidable delays such as the IIT Act are cited, we are in for a shaky ride.

5) Library resources: The Central library at IITM is probably the best “technical” library in Madras from our experience as undergraduates. However, comparisons even with a low/medium ranked US university would be agonizing. The reasons for these include: the large number of journals published in Electrical engineering alone, the cost of most of these journals (USD/Euro pricing), and students’ tardiness and impatience which leads them to tearing off scripts that they deem as more important to them than the general population. The state of special topic books is even more painful to describe.

Long term Solution: Pooling the library funds/facilities of the IITs/IISc/other top level universities and setting up a nationwide electronic database of “absolutely necessary” journals. Re-bargaining with European/US publishers for financial incentives citing the sheer size of the Indian market addressed by such a database is a must. This re-bargaining must include copyright issues, rights to older issues when electronic journals were not in vogue, the need for pricing the goods at the purchasing power of the market etc. GoI involvement is a must to ensure that lobbying gets done and make sure that this business deal does not fall through. Inter-library loan agreements with universities in the US/Europe/Oceania/Japan/South Korea/anywhere else can lead to faster access times for manuscripts and obscure books. Development of alumni funds for shipping “book loans,” that cannot be electronically transmitted, to and from the foreign country, in case of extremely speedy requirements of certain obscure books. While the long term solution will get rid of the problem of students’ tearing off scripts, a short term remedy for this is the presence of dummy/non-dummy closed-circuit cameras, development of an honor code and strict punishments to offenders.

6) Teaching loads – Mini Sabbaticals: While some academicians do and most claim to love teaching, it is a well-known fact that most of them clamor for lesser teaching loads in lieu of pursuing their research interests. Exceptionally great research performance/contributions (like award winning papers in international journals, special issue publications, accolades like nomination as IEEE Fellows etc. or any other suitable justification) can be rewarded by lifting the teaching burdens for those who request it (for a semester and upto a year). Such temporary “accolades” could be cancelled for that semester (or year) if no faculty member in a department has made “significant” contributions worthy of such accolades. Not only would a semester or two of zero teaching load reductions be annoying to any proud faculty member, but such limited positions would also ensure that there is a positive competitive atmosphere among the junior and senior faculty, thus advancing the department as a whole. Even if the department would be a few faculty members too short to teach the basic/advanced courses, the research benefits accrued by such a scheme would more than offset the negative effects. Besides, people who fare badly in research can be made to share more than their normal share of courses, thus discouraging poor research performance. Appointing non tenure-track teaching faculty/lecturers (with a Ph.D. or M.S. + teaching training) and temporary positions can also aid in sharing the teaching burden. First year engineering courses can be taught by well-trained teaching assistants who are either graduate or exceptional senior undergraduate students. This will also aid in rounding off the development potential of the student population. Some financial/logistical investment may be necessary to train/reward/pay the teaching assistants.

Update: After I talked with some senior colleagues of mine with this half-baked idea, I was castigated roundly for its obvious hare-brainedness. The logic is as follows: The responsibility of a faculty member is to teach and research. It is not one of the two, but both. Teaching sabbaticals are known in the US as “buy-outs.” While buy-outs happen often enough in the US, it is a practice that breeds academic jealousies. Further, if there is a reward mechanism, someone will get the award irrespective of their absolutist credentials. Even if a mini-sabbatical is offered as a reprieve mechanism to improve the performance of the department, the prospects that it will create distrust, breed nepotism, burden the administrators with an unenviable exercise etc. are huge. The emotional maturity of Ph.D. students to teach a course is also questionable, more so in the case of India. Above all, the most important issue I encountered was: “Undergraduate students do not pay their tuition fees to get taught by intermediates such as Teaching Assistants or Teaching Fellows.” At the end of the day, teaching load for a faculty member is not really that huge except the first time (or the first few times) a syllabus and course materials are prepared, so foregoing continued teaching in the guise of re-apportioning resources for research is a cop-out of the highest order. In the light of this criticism, I will retain this half-baked idea under the heading of a personally motivated half-baked idea.

7) Faculty collaboration: First-rate research usually never gets done single-handedly. Presence of a large pool of talented faculty to brainstorm and lead research in multi-farious directions is the key to a department’s renown in the international community. Besides, it is more likely that brainstorming with a group that has expertise in different, but slightly related, backgrounds can lead to inspired and complementary methods of attack for complex problems. While this is not meant to berate the quality of current faculty at IITM, it would be significantly attractive to work in a place with people who are well-known in their fields. Moreover, an assemblage of experts in different fields is a blessing in disguise for the students who can run into them with their fundamental questions. On a side note, such an assemblage in turn would motivate the best students to do their Ph.D. at IITM and not run away to American universities/software industry.

8 ) Interactions with industry: While interactions with the industry have to be encouraged, they cannot be a substitute for publishing and performing fundamental research. There is a significant difference between fundamental research which is path-breaking and sets trends for the future and “sustenance research” which meets the needs of today. A lot of importance was (and still is), at least in Electrical Engineering, accorded to implementing things in coordination/collaboration/conjunction with the industry. In the process, IITM lost (loses) out on two things: One, new avenues/directions of research just when the engineering sciences are in the cusp of a major revolution, and Two, a paradigm shift and a strategic meltdown in the priorities of the institute.

Anecdote: As undergraduate students, we had seen first-hand the focus that was placed on “getting our hands dirty and making things work.” Such a skill is fundamental and essential to surviving the real world we were to have entered upon graduation. But primary focus in B.tech projects on making things work, killed the analytical skills of some of us beyond repair. We would not be making far-fetched comments in stating that such projects totally demotivated a few students who had hard-to-match analytical capabilities. The lack of vision, knowledge of our capacities, the sheer logistics of assigning 90 students B.tech projects and the indifference of the department administration in assigning a “one-glove fits all” project assignments could have been easily overcome by drawing simple correlations from our grades in some of the core courses and our capabilities. (For example, Communications students who tend to do well in theory/Math courses could have been assigned theoretical problems, those doing well in networking/programming related courses could have been assigned networking projects, those doing well in device physics/quantum physics courses could have been assigned hardcore projects in device modeling etc.) Such indifference has also been seen in other departments. While some credit must go to the communications group to ensure that the WLL scheme is well-known in India, in the context of research health of IITM and the department of Electrical Engineering, this has been possible only by trading-off sustenance and utilitarian research with fundamental research. I am personally of the opinion that IITs should not take the responsibility that firmly belongs with GoI.

9) Indifference of undergraduate students: This issue is of tremendous importance given the falling attendance in many undergraduate courses today. The truth is that a few students do go on the “cruise mode” once they have cleared the JEE and entered the prestigious IITs, but a vast majority of them are turned off because they are not sufficiently “intellectually challenged.” I recall my undergraduate advisor telling me, both directly and indirectly, in the course of my B.tech project: “Please prove your analytical talent, if you have any.” Such a challenge not only ensured that I did justice to what my capabilities were, but also furthered me in loving doing research.

Long term Solution: The “one glove fits all” attitude of curriculum development at IITM is the fundamental issue at the heart of this problem. While this may offer a logistically simple solution to the administrators, such an attitude destroys students’ enthusiasm in research, making them wander around the pristine campus, unaware of what they can do (academically) and cruise along by doing the bare minimum necessary for graduation. In most of the American universities, an outline of fields in which a particular number of credits have to be mandatorily taken is prescribed, but never the courses themselves. There is the freedom to choose the courses one would like to pursue. Such a freedom was (and even today is - except for the final year curriculum, the time by which the rot has already set in) absent in many inter-disciplinary courses that we had to take, like Fluid Mechanics, Material Sciences for Electrical Engineers, Chemistry 101/102 etc. While these courses may have been important for a particular branch of Electrical Engineering (like Device Physics), such an overview can be obtained by students interested in Communication Systems by taking a single course. An all-around development of the individual is necessary, but not to the point of indifference. If a communications student had the choice to pursue advanced courses in Mathematics, many indeed would have.

Update: Things seem to have been streamlined far better today with curriculum revision. The number of credits an undergraduate student “has to” take for a B.tech degree is far less than that necessary when we were students. It is, however, not clear to me as to what alternatives have been proposed to fill the gap. Unless such credible opportunities exist, little long-term direct benefits can be expected.

10) Relationship between professors and students – The Generation Gap: While the fact remains that every professor wants his/her students to succeed, the divergent paths adopted by them is not only a symbol of their uniqueness and their academic and intellectual freedom, but also a potential source for unintended consequences. In this context, given that there are at least 90 students in an EE class, the possibilities that a professor knows every student by name or background is particularly remote. Moreover, given that the professors are at least 5-10 years older than the general student population, what was necessarily the right approach in the past does not necessarily have to be perceived by the student populace to be the right approach. When the professors tend to set themselves as the “Never committing an error, morally or intellectually” example (at least in front of the class), even a small double standard can be blown out of proportion. While a few students would remain inactive and be an “intellectual drain” on the resources, despite providing them the “best” research topics, generalizing this to every student in the class (the most probable reason for our predicament of uninterested and indifferent faculty) seems to have been a bit insensitive to our goals and aspirations and more so, our logical reasoning capabilities.

Long term Solution: To be fair, I must add that a few of our professors, did advise us and help us to the best of their abilities. But it remains that the wide gulf between the students and the professors only seems to be widening to this day and not being engulfed. A refrain from most of us is: We never got to know any of the professors except for their teaching. Even professors who are perceived to be bad teachers by the students would have been “forgiven,” if they had showed an “explicit” and genuine interest in our well-being. While not every one of us would have been enthusiastic about a tea party with the professors, those who would have been could have convinced our hostel/branch-mates that “they are not as bad as they seem.” It is the imperative of the professors to be mature enough to not impose their “time-tested, right” way of doing things on the students. In this setting, it would be worthwhile to note that most students are in their teenage years, well-known for its rebellious attitude. Sermonizing was the last thing we wanted, but we would have sapped up any advice, provided it came for free without having to sacrifice our freedoms in making “informed” decisions.

Other issues of concern include
11) Financial aid in attending international conferences – a necessary requirement to be known by the research community. This is still a GIANT problem, and perhaps the BIGGEST problem faced by faculty at the IITs.

12) Bureaucracy in getting paperwork through (especially at the Ad-Block)

13) Official apathy to perceived injustices/Corruption – What is right is not always perceived by the student population to be right. Thus speedy decisions not only have to be made, but also sold well to the student community. An example would be the case of Internet ban (in the hostel zone), if such a decision were to be taken today. Given that Internet in the hostels is not a necessary condition for success, and is responsible for many unforeseen issues that lead to estrangement from the system at large, it would be easy to ban it today, but hard to sell it.

Conclusion: Despite the lure of family, friends, low cost of living, living where your heart is, cultural moorings, nationalistic ideals, and many other reasons, most undergraduate students from IITM who are now on the brink of an academic career at the US do not tend to return because of the “ills” that are elucidated above. It is highly timely that at least a few of these ills are fixed, if there is any hope that some of them will return in the immediate future. At a crucial point in time, when administrators of government bodies are seriously pursuing the renaming of existing universities to IITs, which would further dilute the already diluted brand that is IIT, it would be imperative on them to consider the question: “Why not fix the leaking house that exists, instead of building new ones or increasing the pool of leaky houses?”

Update: Since this personal recollection was written five years back, the GoI has gone full-steam ahead with renaming of existing institutions as IITs and starting new IITs. Going into the reasons behind GoI’s decision will divert us from the focus here. But unfortunately, it remains a fact that many of the new IITs are running (or planning to run) from creeky old-infrastructure, and more importantly, hiring for these new IITs seems to be a big problem. But the problems that non-metro (but established) IITs such as those at Guwahati, Kanpur and Kharagpur face today is a more serious issue especially with the expected retirement of old faculty members or return of “borrowed” faculty members. Hiring new faculty members for these non-metro IITs is becoming a big problem as returnees from the US and elsewhere find it a non-attractive option for family reasons. Other problems such as international travel grants for students and faculty, a short-fall in quality Ph.D. candidates, adequate compensation packages etc. only add to the mess. The steep demands and challenges by the GoI to the IITs and IISc to “produce” at least 1000 Ph.Ds per annum without a proportionate increase in infrastructure and fixing of the fundamental ills listed above is certainly a cause for concern. Nevertheless, the progress that some of the IITs (and the education sector, in general) have made makes this author optimistic that the “elephant may amble, but it will get to its intended destination.” The global economic downturn only makes his optimism grow, and in that sense, the best service the west could do for India in a long time is to sustain the downturn in their economies.
mohan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 15 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Education System

Post by mohan »

Raja Bose wrote: Still remember UN Singh (who used to write those maths books for NCERT iirc) interrogating shivering ol' me during NTSE final interview about some stuff I claimed I didn't know and through patient questioning over next 10 minutes pried out all the answers from my frozen lips - then admonishing me as to why I told him before, that I didnt know the answer! :oops:
Something on similar lines happened to me too - it was, in all, an amazing experience!

Before I launch into what might appear to be excessively gushing, I'd like to describe my background: I did my Masters in Biology from TIFR and am now doing my PhD in genetics at Cornell Univ, NY Massaland.

Anyway, I took a year's break before I started my PhD and worked with a school (http://www.schoolriverside.com) designing science curriculum for the school (and many of its affiliates) and also worked with a fantastic company called Educational Initiatives (http://www.ei-india.com).
EI was started by three ex-IIMs. There was (and I know there still is) intense focus on developing evaluation measures (called ASSET) that tested true understanding as opposed to rote learning/regurgitation.

For instance, one of the questions was:
What is the chemical formula for steam? - this was posed to (if I remember correctly) students in class 8 across the country. How the student answers this question (he was given a choice- aka, MCQ) tells the evaluator tons about how the student thinks - if he says H2 and O2, then said student thinks that while water is H2O, as it turns to steam, it dissociates. OTOH, if she says H2O, she understands phase transitions correctly. If the student says there is no formula, that says something else entirely!

I played a bit-part in test design as well as conducting student interviews that helped us understand how (and why) the students thought the way they did. As one can imagine, such insight gives us tremendous leverage when it comes to designing teaching methods.

While their innovation is fabulous, there are some 'meta-facts' that I would like to bring to your attention:
a) They are entrepreneurs - EI is not an NGO or a charitable foundation - they are a business, and last I heard, they are doing well - which means there is a significant paying market for these sort of services (they are also working with UN, etc I think - not sure though).
b) As an extension of (a), there are schools and people and entities that recognise the value of such tools, and are willing to pay a fair price for them.

I request anyone who is remotely interested to browse their website. ASSET is just one of the tools that EI has developed. There are many more, including teacher training, etc.

- http://www.ei-india.com/about-asset/sample-questions/ - has more of the sample questions like the one I described.

Finally, I request anyone who is interested to please contact EI - I know that all of people at EI (including the directors aka Sridhar, Venkat and Sudhir) are incredibly open and are always on the lookout for info and ideas - and you are welcome to contact me for anything too!

I also want to bring to your attention the work done by Pratham, an NGO. (I did a quick search and couldn't find any forum posts on their work).
As part of my work with the school, I interacted briefly with people from Pratham Gujarat. This is their website: http://www.pratham.org

Of particular interest to BRF perhaps might be their annual report on the state of primary education in India. They (Pratham and its volunteers) conduct district level surveys assessing the state of education infrastructure, etc called ASER (Annual Status of Education Report). Here is a link to their 2008 report:
http://asercentre.org/

the 2008 survey sampled 367 districts out of a total of 600 districts in the country, spanned 13,000 schools and 720,000 students in 16000 villages - the scale is mind-boggling!


For instance, a quick glance at their data suggests that even in the age-groups of 15-16 years, where drop-outs are the most, almost 80% of children in India (based on their sampling) are enrolled in schools. I know based on my discussions with Pratham Gujarat that the problem is not absence of infrastructure as much as it is absence of teachers - but my recollections could be mistaken.

They also have this fascinating program called READ India - and that is described in their annual report and other reports found here:
http://www.pratham.org/M-31-7-Reports.aspx -

If you cannot measure it, you cannot achieve it. EI, Pratham, ASER are providing us with tools and numbers - any serious discussion has to be rooted in these numbers. I hope I have added some value to this thread!

Further, I know that EI has tons of statistically crunchable data - which they haven't been able to get at since they didn't have the people with such skills (and this is 2 years old news - thing might be very different now)- but they are (were) willing to share their data with almost anyone who is willing to work with them in interpreting and using the numbers/data. Please contact me if you are interested in such an exercise, and I can atleast get you in touch with the right people within EI.

Cheers,
Mohan
Post Reply