That is because you are a jernail.RayC wrote: The Communists tried to intimidate me once and I told them to clear off if they wanted their heads intact!
Dileep wrote:That is because you are a jernail.RayC wrote: The Communists tried to intimidate me once and I told them to clear off if they wanted their heads intact!
OK, the whole crowd of heavyweights have now put their weight on this issue. I am sure they are going to use all their men and all their horses to find any trace of fraud. You know the tenacity and the capability of the players involved.
Now, if the FAIL to find any fraud, would the whiners and conspiracy theorists agree that the EVMS are fine?
If they find a fraud where the software was modified, either in the field, or at the factory at the time of manufacturing, I will take the print out of EVERY PAGE of this thread, and EAT IT. I will post the video on youtube for all of you to see, unless you travel to DMA to watch it in person.
Would the chicken littles do the same if no fraud was found?
My, my, such insistence on checking source codes... Tell me, do you think the EC uses computers to do the final tally from various ballot boxes? Do you use a computer to do financial transactions? Have you checked the Windows source code? You seem to be okay with using a platform that is untrusted in terms of source code in situations where there is direct loss to you, and when EC uses it even when using a paper ballot (or even if they use calculators, no one has checked the firmware of a calculator). Interesting.To start with,
1. Have open EVM? Have you checked the source code?
2. Do you know any one who has gone thru EVM's source code?
3. Can you get me the EVM so that I can check the source code? Will pay the (reasonable) cost.
Let me answer the questions. You wont get me an EVM. You never checked EVM. You dont know anyone who checked EVM. EVM is not available to any third party at cost price so that he can verify. And yet you believe that EVMs are 100% safe !!
This might not work out. Because the agency sending the ballot papers and the agency sending the EVMs are one and the same. So when they decide which constituency should have both EVM and and ballot paper, they can as well as send EVMs which will perfectly. Election Commission is an indepedent agency, and as of now only they are to decide policies/dates on elections etc. More than the device (EVM), I feel we need to worry about the people who hold important positions in the Election Commission.Viv Sreenivasan wrote:Voters in those 25 or whatever number constituencies will have to vote twice once on the machine and once on the ballot paper. Then if there is a big discrepancy between the two (barring a few mistakes here and there) you can be pretty sure fraud is going on. If there is fraud in EVMs this method will pick it up clearly. What do you guys think?
Some fellas from chipzilla had some interesting examples of these...dont know if they ever published it in any xxCon or journal or rag but you can do plenty with systems which are hardware centric with primitive firmware. They were all doable but none of them are practical.And 0 EVMs for over 10 million non resident Indian citizens in the Middle East, North America, Europe and else where.shiv wrote:http://www.travelindia-guide.com/electi ... lok-sabha/
- 714 million voters, 43m more than elections of 2004
8,28,804 polling stations,
1.36m EVMs,
4m civic officials,
2.1m security officials
Photo electoral rolls to be used for first time in 522 of total 543 constituencies
Total expenditure estimated to be around Rs. 10,000 crore
A polling booth in the interiors of Gir forest in Junagadh has one voter
In Chhattisgarh, one polling booth has been made for just two voters
In Arunachal Pradesh, three booths have been made for three voters each
You are just proving that EVMs cannot be assured to be free of defects using any means available. So they have to be dumped then.Raja Bose wrote: Don't see the reason this fetish behind trying to get access to the src of EVMs onlee, amongst the EVM-paranoid. Getting access to the src code only proves that the src code of the EVM you were given is OK...doesnt prove that the src doesn't other spurious versions which are injected into other EVMs. What if the hack is board level? Do you want to manually trace each line? Lets even get more paranoid...what if a politician chacha has bribed the honest Swedes of Atmel or whoever makes the MCU to make a customized 'rigged' MCU? - again possible but not practical!
Even the 'randomized' selection of an EVM for evaluation, is not really randomized and can be subtly controlled. For every check there is a way to wiggle out - when does it end, unless you are personally planning to check every EVM in India?
I think a system where every loser can choose any non-random EVM, i.e. booth station where he expects to win but loses, and where he can do *any* thing to that, all captured on camera will be a start.vera_k wrote:You are just proving that EVMs cannot be assured to be free of defects using any means available. So they have to be dumped then.Raja Bose wrote: Don't see the reason this fetish behind trying to get access to the src of EVMs onlee, amongst the EVM-paranoid. Getting access to the src code only proves that the src code of the EVM you were given is OK...doesnt prove that the src doesn't other spurious versions which are injected into other EVMs. What if the hack is board level? Do you want to manually trace each line? Lets even get more paranoid...what if a politician chacha has bribed the honest Swedes of Atmel or whoever makes the MCU to make a customized 'rigged' MCU? - again possible but not practical!
Even the 'randomized' selection of an EVM for evaluation, is not really randomized and can be subtly controlled. For every check there is a way to wiggle out - when does it end, unless you are personally planning to check every EVM in India?
) for accepting EVMs as secure. Doomsdays scenarios are there for every system....trick is to minimize it. On that count the EVMs are doing quite well.In a country where a neta accepting a fat bunch of currency on candid camera can cooly proclaim that the tape is 'doctored', expect all sorts of hera-pheri done during this 'inspection' process esp. if he brings in his own 'hackers'. India will finally be an IT super power when netas stop employing muscular goondas and instead start employing bespectacled goondas!ravi_ku wrote: I think a system where every loser can choose any non-random EVM, i.e. booth station where he expects to win but loses, and where he can do *any* thing to that, all captured on camera will be a start.
*any, meaning he is allowed to open, check the source in it into the binaries and so on,
This is really a sad story. Elections are one way to fix the NRI stokes to the India central hub. The India-centered interest of NRIs would stay high. Their bonds with India (in contrast to their bonds just with their family in India) would stay strong. The elections would give India the ability to project the elections as a huge social event abroad, where the NRIs can mingle and get to know each other. It would also be an (almost) free PR blitz for India paid by the local chapters of the political parties in the foreign lands.BijuShet wrote:And 0 EVMs for over 10 million non resident Indian citizens in the Middle East, North America, Europe and else where.
.EVM tampering: Congress leader moves High Court
KalingaTimes Correspondent
Cuttack, July 8: Congress leader Alok Jena has moved the Odisha High Court challenging the outcome of the recent polls with regard to the Bhubaneswar Central Assembly constituency.
In a petition filed on June 29, Jena has prayed to the Court to declare the election of Biju Janata Dal nominee Bijay Kumar Mohanty as null and void.
Jena, who lost the Assembly election that was held in the month April, has reportedly alleged in his petition that the electronic voting machines (EVMs) that were used for polling in the constituency were tampered at the instance of the ruling BJD.
On the day of counting, Jena had lodged a complaint in this regard to the Chief Electoral Officer of the State as well as the Election Observer.
The petitioner had also alleged that several EVMs that were used in the polling were replaced by other machines before the counting of votes.The administrative machinery was grossly misused to help the BJD candidate win the election, he had alleged on the counting day.
Jena's petition is likely to come up for hearing shortly. More than six other similar petitions have also filed in the High Court mainly by Congress leaders who had lost the elections.
Senior Congress leader Ghulam Nabi Azad had also told media in Bhubaneswar last month that many of the party candidates who lost the recent Assembly and Lok Sabha polls had alleged that EVMs were tampered in their constituencies to ensure their defeat
Say that and the H word comes outkrishnan wrote:So can we say the same thing about congress wins as well Mr Ghulam Nabi Azad
Interesting pointRaju wrote:Nothing much might come out of it. The ruling party has blocked commons from investigating into the wealth of judges. And the judges do not have to make their assets public before taking up their post. The judges in all probability will now have to repay that favor.
this basically validates whatever RMji has been saying all along, the Judge-Neta nexus and the larger NBJPRIE-nexus will always block accountability and probity.
It its TRIVIAL to prove that anti EVM people stand to gain 1 crore Rs each from selling the ballot papers, counting staff etc etc. Mehtaji, you still have not posted ANY numbers that disprove this. Why are you MISLEADING the commons with your agenda? It is TRIVIAL to see that these people are either NBJPRIE themselves, or are hand in glove with them....The pro-EVM people's logic resembles pro-interview people. In recruitment of junior judges and all junior GoI staff including UPSC, I oppose interview and demand written exams only as interviews are prone to corruption. But pro-interview people demand proof that interview takers actually take bribe !! And they further demand that interviews should go on till there is a proof that over 51% of interview takers actually take bribe !! As if interview takers give receipt of bribes they take !! Good thing is that commons seldom listen to their "show me the proof" litany, and commons do agree with words on streets.
Tanaji,Tanaji wrote:7 Lakh EVMs. Lets assume 20 mins to desolder, re program and resolder each EVM and re-package it. That is 20 * 7000000 = 2333333 man hours of work = 97222 man days of work =
266 man years of work.
Imagine the amount of people required to get this done in time. Not to mention the resultant risk of exposure involved. And I am not even considering the fact that it is likely that each EVM needs to have separate programming due to how the candidates are listed on the ballot.
The CUs are not something that you can program like your computer, the firmware is on a ROM which must be removed, and replaced.
Of course, laws of space and time do not matter in Rahul Mehtaji's ramblings. He is beyond physics.
Dileep,Dileep wrote:Tanaji, the candidate list is never entered in the EVM. It simply counts votes cast into a row. The order of the candidates, ie which candidate goes into which row, is based on the party status (ie national/state party, registered party, independent), and then within a block, alphabetical. The list of the candidates in the proper order will be published after the nomination process is finalized. Ballots will be printed in this order, and inserted into the machine.
The electrion commission publishes the handbook for the officers. The one for Returning officers that deals with these activities is here http://eci.nic.in/ElectoralLaws/HandBoo ... ficers.pdf
Read chapter XII for the instruction on how to prep the machines for poll.
The machines are randomized while allocating to a constituency, and again randomized for the polling stations. So, any key-code programming should happen after the machines are handed over to the returning officer of the constituency. All stages of randomization and commissioning are done in the presence of the agents of the candidates, are completely videographed for record.
Shri Mehta ji,Rahul Mehta wrote: So before shipping EVMs, the EC guy replace the 1500 real Control Units with 1500 Control Units given agency which supplies rigged Control Units. And the Control Unit is rigged to give 5% more votes to No. 2 guy and 5% less votes to rest. And once counting is over and CUs come back to warehouse, they will replace back with original unrigged control units.
Dileep wrote:If someone CAN pull of the stunt you mention, they can very well do the same thing with a ballot box. They can replace pre-filled ballot boxes at the warehouses using exactly the same modus operandi you outlined.
Replacing the ballot boxes with ballot papers from 1500 booths would need 2-5 people per booth, i.e. 4500 criminals per constituency. Also, the ballot boxes for ballot paper are not shipped from CEC warehouse, but are manufactured locally at District/Tahsil level. Also, how would one know how many ballot papers to put in each box? No one knows voting % at each booth in advance. So replacing ballot boxes can be done only AFTER election, and not before. And this would require someone to run a huge printing press as well as ground staff to break into rooms. So this too would need 1000-2000 goons per constituency.Rahul Mehta: So before shipping EVMs, the EC guy replace the 1500 real Control Units with 1500 Control Units given agency which supplies rigged Control Units. And the Control Unit is rigged to give 5% more votes to No. 2 guy and 5% less votes to rest. And once counting is over and CUs come back to warehouse, they will replace back with original unrigged control units.
Raja Bose : In such a situation how does your paper ballet become any better?
So Dileep, you say that I want paper ballots so that I can rig them at booth level.Dileep wrote:I am convinced that the opposition to the EVM is not because the are riggable, but because the are not. Politicians are used to rigging, and they find no way to do that with the EVMs. That is the real reason.
No, not you, and I don't consider you to be a politician though you claim to be one.So Dileep, you say that I want paper ballots so that I can rig them at booth level.
No. If you can replace the machines, you can replace the boxes AFTER the poll. Same number of people to me compromised.Replacing the ballot boxes with ballot papers from 1500 booths would need 2-5 people per booth, i.e. 4500 criminals per constituency. Also, the ballot boxes for ballot paper are not shipped from CEC warehouse, but are manufactured locally at District/Tahsil level. Also, how would one know how many ballot papers to put in each box? No one knows voting % at each booth in advance. So replacing ballot boxes can be done only AFTER election, and not before. And this would require someone to run a huge printing press as well as ground staff to break into rooms. So this too would need 1000-2000 goons per constituency.
A ballot box is not too bigger than an EVM, so if you can replace an EVM, you can replace a ballot box.The process of replacing ballot boxes AFTER the poll is too error prone, as the duplicate must have exact number of ballot paper as in the original box. Also, one would need to bring 3-5 trucks full of ballot papers, and must know in advance which ballot box is located in which room. Too many places to fail.
No. All machines for ALL the constituencies under a collector go to him, and they are randomized in the presence of the agents. Whenever you have more than one constituency (here in cochin there were three under the same collector) your logic fails.Where as in EVMs, all 1500 Control Units of a given constituency go from one CEC warehouse to the Collector.
Have you ever worked in a warehouse? I have. You need to find 1500 boxes by serial number, and replace them with the exact serial number. that is because the serial number of the machines are prepared well in advance and sent to the receivers. And since Mr. Chawla, or even the babu co-conspirator is not going to do it, you need a number of people to do that, and they are going to ask why you are replacing the boxes.So if a person has pre-fabricated rigged CUs, with support of Chawala, he can replace actual 1500 CUs with rigged ones within few hours.
That is the cat out of the bag, isn't it? The devil-incarnate naveen chawla, like santa clause, is going to magically appear at the EC warehouses and replace the EVMS.EVMs dispatching is centralized --- everything in from CEC warehouse and everything under CEC Chawala, who is well known for his corruption.
It doesn't matter. With paper, you can print your copies anywhere.While in paper ballot, EVERYTHING is 100% decentralized -- printing is done at district level, boxes are made at Tahsil level, etc.
Have you ever into a manufacturing operation that makes 300,000 units of ANYTHING? Let alone 300,000 sets of printed circuit boards? I have run PCB assembly plants myself, and I am right now sitting on top of one of the larger plants in India. Just to mention, have you any idea how many man hours is needed just to put the soldered boards into the metal boxes? Or to make the boxes themselves, and here you need to make them EXACTLY like the original.So to rig 200 seats :
1. in EVMs, I only need co-operation of Chawala, a few top IAS in EC and a few engineers to manufacture say 300,000 rigged Control Units abroad, and substitute them in warehouse before they are shipped.
No, you just replace the filled ballot boxes after the poll, just like you propose to replace the machines.2. While to rig ballots in paper-ballot, I need 1000-2000 goons in each of these 200 Constituencies and I also need co-operation with 1000-2000 of grass root level policemen and officers.
No you just need one guy at the factory to provide the rigged binaries that will be burned into lakhs of PROM chips. Or you need one guy to provide rigged binaries for the totaliser program that mixes the votes. Nothing beyond a CS grad student's skills is required to produce the rigged assembly code.Tanaji wrote:7 Lakh EVMs. Lets assume 20 mins to desolder, re program and resolder each EVM and re-package it. That is 20 * 7000000 = 2333333 man hours of work = 97222 man days of work =
266 man years of work.
Imagine the amount of people required to get this done in time. Not to mention the resultant risk of exposure involved. And I am not even considering the fact that it is likely that each EVM needs to have separate programming due to how the candidates are listed on the ballot.
The CUs are not something that you can program like your computer, the firmware is on a ROM which must be removed, and replaced.
Of course, laws of space and time do not matter in Rahul Mehtaji's ramblings. He is beyond physics.
Yes, but doesnt this mean that anyone trying to write a program that adds every 5th vote to a particular candidate has to know how many candidates there are and the key assignment, For example if there are 5 candidates in the constituency, assigned to first 5 buttons, my hacked firmware has to know that votes must be reduced from buttons 2, 3, 4 and 5 and added to tally of button 1. You many not need to know exact key assignment but surely the number of candidates is required. Which means a lot of hacked "versions" of the firmware, 543 in the worst case.Dileep wrote:Tanaji, the candidate list is never entered in the EVM. It simply counts votes cast into a row. The order of the candidates, ie which candidate goes into which row, is based on the party status (ie national/state party, registered party, independent), and then within a block, alphabetical. The list of the candidates in the proper order will be published after the nomination process is finalized. Ballots will be printed in this order, and inserted into the machine.
.....
The machines are randomized while allocating to a constituency, and again randomized for the polling stations. So, any key-code programming should happen after the machines are handed over to the returning officer of the constituency. All stages of randomization and commissioning are done in the presence of the agents of the candidates, are completely videographed for record.
The BU is keyed to the CU. It doesnt work otherwise. I suppose even the actual code numbers that BU uses are given out by evil evil Chawla eh?I did not say that CIA men would open the control unit, remove the existing ROM, put new ROM etc. I said they would just replace all unrigged Control Units with rigged ones before shipping from warehouse to District Collector, and then when CUs come back to warehouse after counting is over, they will replace it it original ones.
Please read Dileep's post. Either you replace the whole BU/CU combo, or you replace the chip. IF you want to replace the combo then you need to get the whole thing manufactured from somewhere. How do you propose getting this done for 1.36M sets? How do you propose that you ensure the correct firmware goes to the right constituency? One EVM costs 5500 Rs. Lets say Rs. 3500 since it includes a battery and we can have multiple BUs to a CU. 1.36M * 3500 = 4.76 Billion Rs. = 476 crore Rs. I know politicians are crazy rich, but this is not chump change either. Do you think a foundry/integrator in China is going to accept Rupees? How do you think the money will be transferred... Yes, the standard answer is Swiss banks, but its not a trivial affair...No you just need one guy at the factory to provide the rigged binaries that will be burned into lakhs of PROM chips. Or you need one guy to provide rigged binaries for the totaliser program that mixes the votes. Nothing beyond a CS grad student's skills is required to produce the rigged assembly code.