Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Jul 2009 04:04

Threeze: Cocktail of thaw & freeze - India, Pak in away match

...
A “good and detailed” 90-minute meeting between foreign secretaries Shiv Shankar Menon and Salman Bashir late last night by the manicured Red Sea shores, several shorter conversations pinched between hectic inaugural-day summiteering on the ringside of NAM today, and it appears almost certain that with a little long-distance prodding from the US, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and counterpart Yousaf Raza Gilani will be goaded onto a common media stage tomorrow.
...
Sources suggest it is likely that Menon and Bashir will meet again later tonight or tomorrow morning ahead of talks between Manmohan Singh and Yousuf Raza Gilani, and this “continuing conversation” alone indicates that there has been behind-the-scenes progress in dialogue, something that could very well translate into a joint statement or press meet tomorrow.
...

Differences of perception clearly persist between the two sides on what exactly constitutes “meaningful movement” in ties — the Pakistanis will view anything less than resumption of composite dialogue with pessimism and use labels like “deadlock”, the Indian side, on the other hand, will even consider a convivial Manmohan-Gilani handshake progress in the circumstances.

Background briefing the two subcontinental media contingents have received from respective officials reflect those differences — the grammar on the Indian side is suffused with positives, the Pakistanis are using muted, often pessimistic, adjectives. But as one senior member of the Indian delegation put it: “The world can see we are willing to talk and actually talking even in the absence of any demonstrable Pakistani action against the terror network.”

Referring to ISI chief Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha’s recent briefings to Indian military attaches in Islamabad, he said, “There is some movement on the Mumbai terror attack which we consider to be broadly satisfactory, but we must wait to see more concrete action being taken.”
...
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Answering a specific question, he said that although India had consistently raised the issue of Dawood Ibrahim’s extradition, the Mumbai don’s name did not figure on the dossier.

The fate of Hafiz Sayeed of the JuD — it is still unclear whether the Pakistani establishment will produce a strong case against him, or let him get off on legal technicalities --- has become a test case of sorts of Pakistani intentions. Any let off would be received badly by New Delhi, which has called Sayeed a “big part of the terror infrastructure” who should be punished under the laws of any “decent and civilised” society.
...
Having fairly convinced itself that not talking to Pakistan was not getting India anywhere and having announced elder-brotherly intent of going more than half the way, the dominant sense appears to be to forge on with talks without letting up pressure on Pakistan to act against the terror network. New Delhi is probably also drawing some diplomatic comfort from the not-so-subtle symbolism US secretary of state Hillary Clinton has decided to strike on her impending India visit.

...
“She is,” in the words of one official, “at once de-hyphenating India and Pakistan and by choosing to go to Mumbai and stay at the Taj, she is also communicating to Pakistan that 26/11 is a milestone you cannot ignore in the fight against terror.”

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 16 Jul 2009 05:36

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 009_pg13_4
Only 28 percent pass annual examination:

Geniuses all.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Jul 2009 05:40

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... to-Kashmir

Peace linked to Kashmir
( Pakistana bangea Kashmir , Kabul amd Karbala)
He said in Pakistan, peace and development are the core national priorities of the democratic government. “The guiding light for us is the vision of Quaid-e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, of a progressive, modern, democratic, Islamic Pakistan - at peace within, and peace without,” he added.

He said Pakistan was currently engaged in a resolute national effort to eliminate terrorism and militancy, and mentioned the enormous sacrifices rendered by its valiant security forces and the people in fighting terrorism

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Jul 2009 05:52

Settle all disputes first....yada yada yada

Pakistan, India reiterates their stated positions

SHARM EL SHEIKH: Indian and Pakistani leaders spelt out on Wednesday their ideas for ‘durable peace’ at the 15th Non-Aligned Movement summit with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh calling for the dismantling of terror networks and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani demanding resolution of outstanding disputes.

Thereby, Geelani has indirectly admitted that terror networks exists and will not be dismantled until all disputes (read: Kashmir and Siachen) issues are settled.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Jul 2009 05:56

Kashmir's legal status
Ass of Ezdi

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=188196

The attorney general said at the hearing that if the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court was admitted, it would damage Pakistan's long-standing principled stand on Kashmir. He also said, "AJK is a sovereign state and it has its own president, prime minister, legislative assembly and speaker. Therefore the apex court cannot interfere in its affairs." (The assertion that AJK is a sovereign state has never been made previously by the Pakistan government in any international or domestic forum. It is also inconsistent with the interim constitution of AJK, passed with the approval of the Pakistan government, which states that the defence and external affairs of Azad Kashmir are the responsibility of Pakistan.)

Pakistan's constitution is completely silent on Kashmir's present status. Article 257, which is a reproduction of identical provisions in the 1956 and 1962 constitutions, deals only with the future status of the state and reads as follows: "When the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir decide to accede to Pakistan, the relationship between Pakistan and that state shall be determined in accordance with the wishes of the people of that state

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Jul 2009 06:06

Dostum, Shebergan and Swat
Haram Seh Gal
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=188193
(Dostam da chalia truck nee, Paki tu bhaija )

The Afghan element among the Taliban force defending Kabul melted away at the approach of Northern Alliance (mostly Tajik) troops, leaving a screen of Pakistanis within Kabul. Almost to a man these Pakistanis were murdered cold in blood by the Tajiks. In many cases the poor Pakistanis were made to lie down in drains and than shot dead like dogs. Worse happened in Konduz, where a force of 8,000 Taliban led by Mullah Dadullah negotiated a surrender to "General" Rashid Dostum commanding the "Jumbish Milli," and Mullah Atta Mohammad of the Northern Alliance. About a 1,000 or so hardened fighters refused to surrender and broke out, about 6,000 (a majority of them Pakistanis) were tricked into surrendering to Dostum by their leader Mullah Dadullah. There is an Indian canard picked up by some in Pakistan that 6,000 Pakistanis were airlifted from Konduz overnight, even the US with all its aviation resources would not be able to evacuate 300 each night from the Konduz airstrip in those circumstances. Almost all the Afghans, including Mullah Dadullah, were given food and water (it was the month of Ramazan) by Dostum and allowed to go off into the night. The Pakistanis paid the price for their (Afghan's) freedom. Arabs, Chechen and (mostly) Pakistanis were packed into container trucks. On Nov 29, 2001, the first convoy of 13 trucks (each packed with about 150 prisoners) set out from Qala Zeini for Shebergan. The next day another convoy of trucks came to Shebergan. According to Newsweek's eyewitness accounts, most were tied up like cattle, this fate was especially reserved for Pakistanis. Many had already died due to dehydration and suffocation, more than a 100 dead in some containers, only 20 or 30 surviving. Th

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2009 06:09

Islamic Pakistan - at peace within, and peace without

miss spelled words.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 16 Jul 2009 08:26

Guddu wrote:http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 009_pg13_4
Only 28 percent pass annual examination:
Geniuses all.

This itself is proof enough that Pakistan is a failed state, at least 72% of it!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Jul 2009 08:34

Bloody ingrates!!

Sri Lanka cancels $200m China, Pakistan weapons purchase

And, they beat us pookies in test cricket. Treat us like used condoms.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Jul 2009 08:35

Lions and Jackals: Pakistan’s Emerging Counterinsurgency Strategy

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2009 08:35

On why India should talk to Pakistan - Editorial in DT

Pakistan has checkmated India, says this Edit.

There is an argument that Pakistan needs peace more than India; that India has reached the status of a regional power in the eyes of many countries in the world without being at peace with Pakistan. Hence, why should India want to talk to Pakistan unless it can get something good out of it?

The fact is that while India has shown good economic indicators and has generally been courted by the West over the last few years, all its efforts can go awry without being at peace with Pakistan. Non-state actors can pull the two sides to war and while such a conflict would be deadly for Pakistan, any victory would be more than pyrrhic for India. At the least it would set India back many decades. That was the result of a war game played by the two sides in Washington last year. The game was overseen by American experts and it left everyone chastened.

Corollary: both countries need peace. Caveat: they can’t move forward without respecting each other’s sensitivities. The time for oneupmanship is over. {Both are therefore equal}

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Jul 2009 08:46

X posted

Chiron wrote:Pause in talks will only benefit terrorists: Pak to India

Well well well.
Pakistan is doing what it does best. It is blackmailing India.
Apparently India is pausing the talks. And this pausing of talks by India makes the chances that a terror attack may take place.

Why? Why should a pause incite a terror attack?

It is because the pakistanis have demanded some thing from India, and GoI is dithering.

Unless someone proves otherwise, I am certain that the pakistanis have formally asked for Kasab or some other high profile terrorist. Not delivering them will cause a terror attack with hostage taking to secure his release.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Jul 2009 08:47

Caricaturing a terrorist (how can you tell the difference)

Describing a terrorist the wrong way

Recently I came across an awareness ad that was supposed to be warning the masses to beware of terrorist and not to get close to any suspicious person. At the side of this message was a sketch of ‘suspicious-to-be’ person. The sketch was no different than that a normal Pakistani male. The only distinctive feature of that sketch was that the person had a beard! That ad, even though right in warning the people about terrorists, was turning the people with beards into an out-cast.

Maybe the majority of the terrorists have beards, but that doesn’t mean that all bearded men are terrorists, just as all men with a black patch over their left eye are not pirates

It’s really painful to see the reactions of our own fellowmen against our very own Pakistanis. The terrorists do not have any religion or any nationality. They are a disgrace to the human race. They might have a beard but that is not the right way to judge someone.

Same as "All terrorists are pakis but that doesn't mean all pakis are terrorists"?

Or, does it? Hmmm...

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Jul 2009 08:51

No more towel throwing because....

Rising cost of doing business: Towel makers planning to relocate units

Many towel manufacturers in the country are planning to relocate their units to Bangladesh.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 16 Jul 2009 09:22

Baluchistan Special: Must Watch: Naseem Zehra Meets Sardar Akthar Mengal (President of BNP)

He rules out even the provincial autonomy and says the roads of Pakistan and Baluchistan will never meet again. May allah bless the Baluchistanis in their demand for independence. This is the real cause of humanity that India must play a role and help them to become independent.

I would like to post this and the earlier program on the baluchistan thread.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 16 Jul 2009 09:46

It appears that India has conceded that Hafeez Sayeed's arrest is internal matter of Pakistan and India will not judge Pakistan's intentions solely on the basis of Hafeez Sayeed. India also has expressed that it favors talk must continue (this is complete volte-face).

It is clear that India is being forced into this by the usual suspect.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2009 10:09

anupmisra wrote:Same as "All terrorists are pakis but that doesn't mean all pakis are terrorists"? Or, does it? Hmmm...

Anup, not all terrorists are Pakis but all Pakis are certainly terrorists. That's the reality.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2009 10:14

A question that sane Americans ask, according to Ms. Clinton

"Yet Americans often ask why do we ask our young men and women to risk their lives in Afghanistan when Al Qaeda's leadership is in neighbouring Pakistan? That question deserves a good answer," she said.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 16 Jul 2009 10:20

Guddu wrote:http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 009_pg13_4
Only 28 percent pass annual examination:
Geniuses all.

Ahhh with such low pass grades, no wonder they are bungling the IED mubaraks...shame on you LMU!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 16 Jul 2009 10:52

sunilUpa wrote: Ahhh with such low pass grades, no wonder they are bungling the IED mubaraks...shame on you LMU!

Its LUMS actually (Lahore University of Management Sciences) - reasonably good quality products, most of the guys look to migrate!

SSridhar wrote: Anup, not all terrorists are Pakis but all Pakis are certainly terrorists. That's the reality.

Sridhar, thats not true at all...there is a small elite within Pakistan that have very similar "vested" interests to what middle classes have around the world - safety of their property, maintenance of their position in society, children's education (and migration to the US), perpetuation of the present order etc etc...

Unfortunately a black and white approach does not serve our purpose in any manner, because a) no society is black or white, and b) it precludes the usage of more nuanced tools of countering the problem...

The Pakistan problem is one of identity, and it cannot be "resolved" by this generation - its a problem whose final solution lies in the next generation, or beyond...For Indians of this generation, the challenge is the to "manage" the problem...

A couple of key objectives that we have:

1. Keep the Paki nukes out of harms (read: jihadi) way.
2. Managing Islamist terrror, especially in Kashmir.

Both of these require us to actually use the Paki elite as a buffer against the jihadi elements...So a little bit of help to the Baloch movement, or even BAitullah Mehsud to keep the pot boiling, but at the same time, keeping the "engagement" process intact with our caveats with the elites...the LUMS grad (or the denizens of Clifton or Chundrigar in Karachi) cowers at the prospect of Taliban next to their doors, even if they are supportive of them in Afghanistan or attaks in India. Our aprpoach should be be enable the "Taliban" to be somehwere within their earshot all the time..But ensure that they dont take over..

In the longer term, the best "managemetn" of Paki nukes would be a global collaborative effort, led by the US, to take them over in some fashion...Or at least have some of the keys...This would be possible only if the nukes remain within a central authority...A fractured Pakistan will be in the hands of Taliban who wouldnt mind doing anything to get hold of a couple of nukes...Managing them is a different ballgame to managing the nuke ambitions of the likes of Askar Akayev and Nursultan Nazarbayev, or Leonid Kuchma - these guys were interested in the money, the jihadi Taliban are not...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 16 Jul 2009 11:20

Somnath,
What is your endgame? What you have written is simple, "more of the same". What is different in your proposal from what is happening now? It simply means, Pakistan can have every year 2-3 mumbai type massacres, 4-5 varanasi level bombings with impunity, by getting away by nuclear blackmail? If that is what your end game entails and if we follow it religiously, all I can do is pity India.

and are you sure it is in India's interests to have Pakistan in the present form? Why? Why will not independent nations of Baluchistan, NWFP,pakjab, sindh be not of interest to India?

What difference does it make for India if the nukes come into talibunnys hands?

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 16 Jul 2009 13:20

CNN-IBN talking about India agreeing to return to political dialog in the proposed draft declaration (leaked?)

This is the third (and most serious) climbdown by UPA-II after the other two
a. Doha round discussions
b. Emissions control

Interesting.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 16 Jul 2009 13:28

ravi_ku wrote:Somnath,
What is your endgame? What you have written is simple, "more of the same". What is different in your proposal from what is happening now? It simply means, Pakistan can have every year 2-3 mumbai type massacres, 4-5 varanasi level bombings with impunity, by getting away by nuclear blackmail? If that is what your end game entails and if we follow it religiously, all I can do is pity India.

and are you sure it is in India's interests to have Pakistan in the present form? Why? Why will not independent nations of Baluchistan, NWFP,pakjab, sindh be not of interest to India?

What difference does it make for India if the nukes come into talibunnys hands?

As I said, this is not a "game" that will end in this generation..the problem of Pakistan is a problem of identity - it takes many decades and sometimes centuries for resolution..Think North Korea as an example (not the same, or even similar, but as an idea)...And NK doesnt even consider the South Koreans as "different people"...

About terrorist attacks - they will continue...Our challenge would be to manage them...Besides that, cause greater pain to Pakistan for every attack by doing something 10 times bigger in their area...Hurt the interest of their elitess - the Karachi real estate magnate, the Lahore absentee landlord, the Rawalpindi general - by creating mayhem in their cities, by reducing the govt's span of control..But (joining the workld in) preventing it from falling off the precipice..

Imagine Baitullah Mehsud, Gulbuddin Hikmatyar, Mullah Omar, Osama Bin Laden, Ataullah Mengal and a donzen more - each with a nuke in hand...

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 16 Jul 2009 13:40

I think the unleashed jihadi factory inside pakistan has two targets.
1. Kafir (The non believers)
2. Munafiqs. (Those who pretend to be believers - IOW the common pakis andwhiskey swilling paki faujis)

The War on terror and India's moves to seal the borders has meant that victories against the kufr is not really going great guns. The end result is a redirection of the energies inwards to take out the munafiqs. [Pak lurkers please note: India and the other Kufr don't actually have to intervene INSIDE pakistan, the job gets done by just standing firm OUTSIDE pakistan]

A nuke in the talibunny's hands means that it will go off in downtown Pindi or Isloo or La-hore or against the khans in afghanistan.
India needs to worry if the Nukes remains with the Pakjab army, who might give it to the pakjab terror boys for a JDAM or load it onto an F-16 or a C-130 in a one way soosai mission.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 16 Jul 2009 13:44

Riz Khan - Pakistan's Swat refugees - 15 July 09

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 16 Jul 2009 13:46

somnath wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:Somnath,
What is your endgame? What you have written is simple, "more of the same". What is different in your proposal from what is happening now? It simply means, Pakistan can have every year 2-3 mumbai type massacres, 4-5 varanasi level bombings with impunity, by getting away by nuclear blackmail? If that is what your end game entails and if we follow it religiously, all I can do is pity India.

and are you sure it is in India's interests to have Pakistan in the present form? Why? Why will not independent nations of Baluchistan, NWFP,pakjab, sindh be not of interest to India?

What difference does it make for India if the nukes come into talibunnys hands?
As I said, this is not a "game" that will end in this generation..the problem of Pakistan is a problem of identity - it takes many decades and sometimes centuries for resolution.

and during the time when they search for this non-existent identity, let there be 1000 mumbais, 100000 varanasi attacks, 500 kargils - because guess what, you are trying to create an identity out of thin air and it takes an awful lot of time. What happens when people die infront of a chat bandaar in hyderabad? Nothing, after all more than that people die in road accidents

About terrorist attacks - they will continue...Our challenge would be to manage them.

and you are right sir, manage them. After all havent we been managing the kashmiri pandits thrown out of their homes for so long. What will you tell a child whose parents died in the attack? Wait child, the non-existent pakistani identity is being created. Dont worry by the time, you have your great great grand child, there is a possibility of that particular identity being built.

..Besides that, cause greater pain to Pakistan for every attack by doing something 10 times bigger in their area...Hurt the interest of their elitess - the Karachi real estate magnate, the Lahore absentee landlord, the Rawalpindi general - by creating mayhem in their cities, by reducing the govt's span of control..But (joining the workld in) preventing it from falling off the precipice..

and that will create Pakistani identity which will solve the problem?

so basically let me understand this. You propose to not allow govt machinery to properly function. make the elite squeezy but keep the structure same - which will lead to creation of new pakistani identity. For a top down identity, like the pakistani one to be created it will require a govt ruthless and having total command of the civil structure like the chinese, now see what you have proposed and what is required for developing an identity.

Imagine Baitullah Mehsud, Gulbuddin Hikmatyar, Mullah Omar, Osama Bin Laden, Ataullah Mengal and a donzen more - each with a nuke in hand...

now imagine a mad person thinking that he has a nuke and therefore can wage war with another country even though it has both bigger army and bigger nukes. Hint, hint: mushy. If Baitullah Mehsud or xyz get the nukes, I will personally give you a party.

Reason: Today those nukes are India's problem, when these people get those nukes, they are world's problem. Now which is in India's interests, you yourselves decide.

Somnath: The problem is 1) You are confusing world (US) interests with India's interests
2) not realising that there is no such thing as a pakistani identity
3) only the present structure gives both the flexibility and strength for Pakistan to do mumbai style terrorist attacks with impunity.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 16 Jul 2009 14:15

^^^ Ravi, you are mistaking my point on identity. Pak's identity will never be "built", the final solution might well be a fragmentation along ethnic lines..But they have an identity problem right now, and we like it or not, hostility to India strengthens the only identity they can rally around together...So Baitullah Mehsud might hate the Paki army, but will surely rally to the "Islamic" cause if India threatens dimemberment of Pakistan...

But a fragmented Pakistan right now is simply not feasible - presence of nukes, situation in Afghanistan, the number of jihadis salivating at an opportunity to lay their hands on nukes...

And our response is not to be "more of the same"...We need our covert capabilities built up many times better than today - both defensive (to defend our homeland) as well as offensive (to strike at the Paki elite interests)...Kill two ISI maj generals for a bomb attack in India, shut down Karachi in MQM violence for 3 days in response to a terror strike in J&K...Build up the capabilities of the Baloch nationalists...

As to the "world's problem" in case nukes are fragmented, well, Iran's nukes are the world's problem as well, North Korea's nukes are the world's problem as well..But who do they concern the most? Not surprisingly, Israel and South Korea/Japan repsectively..Because they are the one's most affected...finally nukes in teh hands of Hafiz Sayeed would be the world's problem, but the can will be only in our hands...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 16 Jul 2009 14:31

somnath wrote:^^^ Ravi, you are mistaking my point on identity. Pak's identity will never be "built", the final solution might well be a fragmentation along ethnic lines.

the sooner the better

But a fragmented Pakistan right now is simply not feasible - presence of nukes, situation in Afghanistan, the number of jihadis salivating at an opportunity to lay their hands on nukes...

You are confusing what it is right now to Indian interests. Indian interests include that Pakistan be fragmented, the sooner the better. simple reason, more time - more number of bombs you need to save.

And our response is not to be "more of the same"...We need our covert capabilities built up many times better than today - both defensive (to defend our homeland) as well as offensive (to strike at the Paki elite interests)...Kill two ISI maj generals for a bomb attack in India, shut down Karachi in MQM violence for 3 days in response to a terror strike in J&K...Build up the capabilities of the Baloch nationalists...

none off which are enough to change the status quo, unless you are willing to take the final step beyond them. In other words "more of the same" terrorist attacks on India from Pakistan with impunity. more mumbais and so on.

Not surprisingly, Israel and South Korea/Japan repsectively..Because they are the one's most affected...finally nukes in teh hands of Hafiz Sayeed would be the world's problem, but the can will be only in our hands...

let me ask you a simple question. Say Pakistan has 50 bombs. How many of those bombs are aimed at India? =50. i.e. today the can is exclusively in our hands -100%. Energy used by west to stop the 50 bombs- zero

Now say 5 bombs are in the hands of talibunny. How many of the original 50 are aimed at India? 47. voila, three bombs are aimed at west and china. So now it becomes china and west duty to curb the whole 50.

In short, make your problem the world's problem.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2009 15:01

somnath wrote:Sridhar, thats not true at all...there is a small elite within Pakistan that have very similar "vested" interests to what middle classes have around the world - safety of their property, maintenance of their position in society, children's education (and migration to the US), perpetuation of the present order etc etc...

somnath, I never said anything about the non-existence of those people. I am also aware that there are others as well like poor people who are worried about their next morsel or rich and extremely rich people. All these have got nothing to do with the statement I made and by which I stand, namely, that 'all Pakistanis are terrorists'. When it comes to destroying India, Pakistanis who might otherwise display normal traits of human beings, won't hesitate to contribute their mite to jihadi terrorism in whatever form, from being a fidayeen themselves to funding or anything in between.

Unfortunately a black and white approach does not serve our purpose in any manner, because a) no society is black or white, and b) it precludes the usage of more nuanced tools of countering the problem...

The Pakistan problem is one of identity, and it cannot be "resolved" by this generation - its a problem whose final solution lies in the next generation, or beyond...For Indians of this generation, the challenge is the to "manage" the problem...

I agree with you on the identity issue or more precisely the lack of it in Pakistani minds. I also agree with you regarding the time it will take to change them if a sincere program is started within Pakistan today. It will take 3 or 4 generations of sustained effort at least, IMHO. However, I disagree with you that the Indian challenge is to somehow put up with this menace till such time the Pakistani society re-invents itself. We have waited for six decades now and we are being increasingly shackled by Pakistani terrorism. Our economy and our well being is getting affected by Pakistan and that is their goal. Every time there is a terrorist attack in India, our economic partners issue travel advisories for their citizens thereby adversely affecting our progress. That is exactly what Pakistan wants and by being magnanimous to the point of being misconstrued as cowards, we are simply playing into Pakistani hands. One of Pakistan's aims is to create an India-Pakistan equality in terms of lawlessness, insecurity of people and all round chaos. Till well into the 60s, many western countries doubted the viability of India as an entity. Pakistan wants India to be brought back to that stage again. Pakistan can take a lot of beating and still not feel the pinch because it is already at the bottom of the pit and has no ambition to provide a decent life to its millions of people. It knows that its 3½ friends will come to its rescue always and unfailingly every time. It is therefore willing to escalate the situation to any extent vis-a-vis Bharat. All that matters to that country, therefore, is the destruction of India. Why should we put up with this cr@p ? Just because we should seem to be be magnanimous or we are dhimmis ?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jul 2009 15:15

somnath wrote:As to the "world's problem" in case nukes are fragmented, well, Iran's nukes are the world's problem as well, North Korea's nukes are the world's problem as well..But who do they concern the most? Not surprisingly, Israel and South Korea/Japan repsectively..Because they are the one's most affected...finally nukes in teh hands of Hafiz Sayeed would be the world's problem, but the can will be only in our hands...

North Korea is a pure dictatorship. In Iran, all segments of the establishment are united wrt to Iranian security interests. It is difficult for the West to denuke these countries.

Pakistan on the other hand is a failed state with the only working institution, the Army, under all sorts of strain. It is a state with one of the highest Western penetration in the world, and all elite are sold to the West. If any country can be denuked through bribes, through trickery, through special ops, it is Pakistan.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jul 2009 16:30

So, slowly the mood in BR is starting to concede that we will eventually bow before the Pakis on their terms as had been predicted on 27/11/2008 itself (within 24 hours of the Mumbai attacks)?

All the talk of how we would slowly bleed Pak in Chankyian ways is slowly dying down as composite dialogue looking all set to start with Pak not even providing a fig leaf to us. (Bharat Karnad writes(in 2007, not sure of current status) as to how Altaf Hussain is begging GoI to restart their "help" to the MQM, which the IB and not even RAW was running, which they stopped in the 90s despite having succeeded in bringing Karachi to its knees)

Sad that all the talk of soft state etc gets proven over and over again by our govt.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 16 Jul 2009 17:13

The only hope is that there is some deep long term Chankian thinking considering all the great geo-political considerations which are not visible to twits like me.

i don't think so. This is pure and simple capitulation to American interests.

but the surprising, or is it, thing is how come most of Indian media, academia, intelligentsia, opposition sit in stony silence with probably a gesture or a token protest or two but rather anything substantial beyond that.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Jul 2009 17:19

SSridhar wrote:Frankly, India deserves what it gets from Pakistan day-in and day-out.

This topic deserves a whole new thread by itself. I am serious.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 16 Jul 2009 17:26

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=50474

Prime Minister Gilani mentioned that Pakistan has some information on threats in Balochistan and other areas. ?????

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 16 Jul 2009 17:31

SSridhar wrote:Frankly, India deserves what it gets from Pakistan day-in and day-out.

x2

... I cannot see a reason why P'stan is waiting..... next attack is long overdue

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jul 2009 17:45

Without a Hafiz Saeed conviction, GoI has absolutely nothing to show the Indian public. It stinks like a total sell-out to the Americans.

GoI didn't even get a fig leaf, behind which it could hide its shame, and that is the truly shameful part.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2009 17:56

Indian news media carry the headline "India, Pak delink terrorism from talks" as though it is a great victory for India. Disgusting.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2009 17:59

SSridhar wrote:Terror delinked from Indo-Pak talks

I can't believe it.

'Terrorism is a threat to both countries. Action on terror will not be linked to the composite dialogue,' said the joint statement.

THAT is JUST the start.

Wait till Clinton sets foot on Indian soil.

No we do not need ENR.

MRCA - no we do have to use it, buy it for sure.

The US seems to be the new emperor.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2009 18:07

Oh. I forgot.

With the HELP of the PMO, go around the MoD - that does NOT want to sign the end user agreement - and get the MEA to sign it.

World's democracies at work.

Democracy.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2009 18:08

Obama just took MMS's mandate away - the one that MMS spoke of in Russia.