Indian Army Discussion

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Jul 2009 12:32

ramana wrote:
Juggi G wrote:‘Precision Ammo’ Fails Test at High Altitudes
The Indian Express
What they want is rocket or a guided missle. To take a system designed for plains warfare and demand that it work in high mountains and that too from lower elevation to hit soemthing at higher elevation is incredulous. A laser guided shell has fins that wiffle in the direction of the target looking for laser light reflection. IOW its a guided glider. What they want is a guided missile which has a power source.
No natashas involved. Only pushing the envelope against physics.

I suppose this is the part of the continuing saga in IA to try out new stunts which were never thought of when the item was originally designed, from landing Cheetals on Siachen to T 72s in Leh, IA has always tried innovate with the existing hardware they have.

I suppose it is to be expected that such R&D (it is R&D) at field level will have its attendant risks and failures amongst the many ideas tried, even as some of them succeed spectacularly.

Kudo's IA.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Jul 2009 12:43

I have seen the trails at HAA.

Can't say I was impressed.

But then, it is not always the Army!

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 16 Jul 2009 22:28

Any news on the LSV?? I believe winter trials happened and then the summer trials too...what else?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Jul 2009 22:34

ad infinitum ?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Jul 2009 17:52

The army’s Advanced Light Helicopter, Dhruv, flies up to a maximum height of 5,000m. The requirement was that it should fly up to at least 6,500m to service soldiers posted in high altitudes such as in the Siachen Glacier and in Arunachal Pradesh.

Dhurv fails

If this is true, then one should be wary of accepting any system which is 'nearly ready'.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Jul 2009 18:40

RayC wrote:
The army’s Advanced Light Helicopter, Dhruv, flies up to a maximum height of 5,000m. The requirement was that it should fly up to at least 6,500m to service soldiers posted in high altitudes such as in the Siachen Glacier and in Arunachal Pradesh.

Dhurv fails

If this is true, then one should be wary of accepting any system which is 'nearly ready'.

this was true, this statement became irrelevant about a year ago. I guess any system needs some time to punch according to its full weight. numerous media reports have been put up over the last few days. see vikram_s' posts for example.
CAG however is still stuck in early 2007 in terms of awareness !

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 18 Jul 2009 06:27

RayC wrote:
The army’s Advanced Light Helicopter, Dhruv, flies up to a maximum height of 5,000m. The requirement was that it should fly up to at least 6,500m to service soldiers posted in high altitudes such as in the Siachen Glacier and in Arunachal Pradesh.

Dhurv fails

If this is true, then one should be wary of accepting any system which is 'nearly ready'.

RayC
Didn't expect that comment from you. Here is my gripe, we know the issue is the engine. We are dependent on phoren manufacturers for it. What was CAG doing--sleeping on wheel all the time this deal was getting negotiated. Does any of these Auditors know the difference between air density at 5000 m and 6500 m. Hell even USA that has the most advanced helos on record is having one hell of a time at 5500 m.
I am with IA on that.

Good grief, can't even defend this nation for free without getting crucified by every A&& hole coming out of woodwork.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Jul 2009 07:15

Baljeet and Rahul M,

What is the operational employment visualised of the Dhruv?

And what altitude it was expected to be operational for?

Just curious!

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 19 Jul 2009 14:11

The Army's own webpage states that its operational altitude is 5900 m. Where does issues with at 5000m come from?

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 19 Jul 2009 14:36

chandrabhan wrote:
Sanku wrote:These are Chankian moves by GoI to force IA to work with DRDO and get DRDO to make guns. Lets title this "Revenge of the Arjun"
I agree Applause

govt shows chanakiyan move to force IA by not procuring and IA ill show chanakiyan move like after 26/11

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Jul 2009 16:08

We aim for the heads of ultras, growl Black Cats

Explaining their daily schedule, the commandos said that they sleep for four hours while most part of the day, it is only rigorous training and practice. “We make replicas of various installations and practice regularly. Mock drills are an important part of our training,” they inform while adding that it is the slogan ‘Bharat mata ki jai’ and their motto of ‘Sarvatra Sarvottam Suraksha’ that keeps them going.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Jul 2009 18:09

Tanaji wrote:The Army's own webpage states that its operational altitude is 5900 m. Where does issues with at 5000m come from?

As per the report, it achieved a max altitude of 5000m.

Could you give the link to this Army webpage? I can't locate it.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 19 Jul 2009 19:00

RayC wrote:
Tanaji wrote:The Army's own webpage states that its operational altitude is 5900 m. Where does issues with at 5000m come from?
As per the report, it achieved a max altitude of 5000m.

Could you give the link to this Army webpage? I can't locate it.

RayC sir ... here is a link on dhruv from IA.... I think Tanaji is talking about this.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/arms/index_aa.htm

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 20 Jul 2009 07:03

Infantry, special forces to get new-generation carbines and rifles.

In the dazzle of strategic missiles, fighter jets, nuclear submarines and main-battle tanks, basic infantry gear often gets short shrift. Army's high-tech F-INSAS project also focuses on transforming soldiers into self-contained, fully networked, mobile killing machines. (TOI Photo)

No longer. The 1.13-million strong Army is now on course to ink three deals for 3,90,000 new-generation carbines and assault rifles.

Defence ministry sources said the aim was to seal the deals, worth around Rs 7,000 crore, `as soon as possible' to bolster the `combat potential' of infantry soldiers and special forces.

Interestingly enough, the first phase of Army's high-tech F-INSAS (future infantry soldier as a system) project in the pipeline also focuses on enhancing the `lethality and survivability' of foot-soldiers.

F-INSAS, in fact, wants to transform soldiers into self-contained, fully-networked, mobile killing machines, with a high degree of `situational awareness' and capable of operating in all-terrain and all-weather conditions.

Under it, infantry soldiers are to be progressively equipped with light-weight integrated ballistic helmets with `heads-up display' and miniaturised communication systems; portable visual, chemical and biological sensors; hand-held computer displays, GPS and video links; and of course lethal firepower with laser-guided modular weapon systems.

The biggest of the three deals to be inked is the project to buy 43,318 `close-quarter battle' (CQB) carbines off-the-shelf from abroad for around Rs 4,400 crore, which is to be followed by the indigenous manufacture of another 1,16,764 similar guns under transfer of technology.

"The global tender for CQB carbines was issued in early-2008. The deal should be inked within the 2009-10 fiscal," said a source.

Soldiers will find the compact and modular carbines, equipped with night-vision devices, laser designators and detachable under-barrel grenade launchers, much easier to operate than full-length rifles.

Under the second Rs 2,183 crore project, the Ordnance Factory Board is to manufacture 2,18,320 advanced carbines based on the new 5.56-mm model developed indigenously.

The third deal, in turn, is the procurement of 10,730 light-weight assault rifles for Rs 385 crore. Incidentally, the 10 existing battalions of Parachute Regiment, each with around 850 soldiers, have now more or less been reorganised into seven Para-SF (Special Forces) and three Para-SF (airborne) units.

But equipping these special forces, tasked with conducting clandestine and `irregular' warfare deep behind enemy lines, with specialised equipment has taken place in quite a slipshod manner till now.

Army, however, says the 40 specialised items earmarked for special forces are now being fast-tracked. These include weaponry like TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles and M4A1 carbines, all-terrain multi-utility vehicles and GPS navigation systems, modular acquisition devices and laser range-finders, high-frequency communication sets and combat free-fall parachutes, among other equipment, from countries like the US, Israel, France and Sweden.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 20 Jul 2009 07:41

The biggest of the three deals to be inked is the project to buy 43,318 `close-quarter battle' (CQB) carbines off-the-shelf from abroad for around Rs 4,400 crore, which is to be followed by the indigenous manufacture of another 1,16,764 similar guns under transfer of technology.

1,16,764 + 43,618 carbines for 4400 crores comes out to be an astounding INR 2.75 Lakh per carbine. What are we buying ?? Even M16 carbine comes for about $1200 or 60,000 INR.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 09:43

pgbhat wrote: Could you give the link to this Army webpage? I can't locate it.

RayC sir ... here is a link on dhruv from IA.... I think Tanaji is talking about this.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/arms/index_aa.htm[/quote]

Thanks.

Interesting comment thus:

While the advantages in hot-and-high performance parameters and altitude limitations were obvious when compared to the HAL Cheetah, the Army wanted more out of the TM333-2B2 engine.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jul 2009 09:57

ray sir, as I said vikram_s' posts had the relevant articles.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... -of-3.html

As the shuddering helicopter bears down on the tiny helipad atop a needle of ice at 20,997 feet(= 6400 meters), the rotor blades struggle to extract lift from the rarefied air. This is the ultimate test for helicopters. But the army’s new Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has proved that it can land at Sonam, bringing in much larger payloads than the Cheetah helicopters that have laboriously sustained the jawans in Sonam for the last two decades.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070220_alh_dhruv.htm

ALH Dhruv clears high-altitude tests, will join Siachen fleetnews
20 February 2007

Udhampur: India's advanced light helicopter (ALH) Dhruv has successfully cleared all test trials for regular high-altitude operations, especially in the Siachen glacier area of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dhruv was first inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 1998.

According to IAF sources, Dhruv cleared "all test trials" for flying over the Siachen glacier without "any error," and will now join the fleet of Chetak and Cheetah helicopters, which make daily trips to the area providing support services for troops based there.

With the clearance, the Dhruv has been validated for high-altitude, low temperature flying, which is essential for the maintenance of supply lines to the region.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, manufactured chopper underwent a six-month long trial period with the Chandigarh-based Dhruv squadron, and flew under different weather conditions.

also :
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 437840.cms

Bangalore ALH pilots fly high
Prashanth G N, TNN 8 October 2007, 01:31am IST

Three of its pilots were the first to take the ALH to heights higher than Manasbal, which was also the first time an Indian helicopter was taken to that height.

C D Upadhyay, Unni Pillai and M U Khan flew the ALH at an incredible altitude of 27,500 feet (= 8382 meters ! MIght I mention that this is the ONLY helicopter in the world with such high altitude performance ?! ) in the Siachen area braving icy winds.

Upadhyay describes that flight: "We started climbing stage by stage... 20,000 feet, 23, 24, 25, 26 and then 27,500. It had never been done before. We were hovering and watching a Cheetal (another helicopter) land just below us at 25,100 feet. Landing at that height isn’t easy. We were ready to pick up the pilot if something went wrong.

"Naturally, we had to be at a higher altitude. It was cold and we were wrapped in woollens. There wasn't a single rattle at 27,500 ft... We'd worked out if the Cheetal {cheetal is a cheetah with the more powerful TM3332B2, same engine as used in the initial version of the Dhruv}could make 25,000 feet, the ALH could do more. We hadn't tried it on the Siachen Glacier. We succeeded."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots tried out the copter at that height above the Leh runway and the hills before taking on the glacier.

Minutes before the flight, Upadhyay said: "We checked the engine, then the software. It was fine. We were confident the copter would perform 100 per cent. Then we checked on the oxygen. At 27,000 feet, you need pressurised oxygen and a continuous supply. We ensured that. We did all the checks. We just took-off. The ALH was a beauty."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots were the first to put the ALH through the glacier. They flew it in extreme cold conditions. They flew it after an overnight soak. Then in chilly winds, almost blizzard-like conditions.

Upadhyay and co. did not have risk on their mind. "We didn't have the time to think. So there was no worrying. In any case, flying is part of our life. We have done it before and we'll keep doing it in future. If you love what you do, you don't think of what turns out for you. You learn to expect that in a pilot's life."

Sir, do you wonder why we don't hold much with CAG's biles ?

Note on the dhruv programme : the helo was initially cleared for service with twin TM333 2B2 (1000 shp each) with the understanding that the more powerful shakti engine (1200 shp each) under joint development with TM at that time will be used in later versions. that is how military projects are developed the world over, you don't get the best version on day one.

IIRC army was the first recipient of the initial TM 333 versions since it had a pressing need for utility helos. it is myopic, obnoxious, misleading and sheer incompetence on the part of CAG to castigate a very successful program due to sheer lethargy.

an audit that comes two years late has absolutely no relevance to a dynamic project.

P.S. I'll move the latest discussions to army thread and/or mil aviation.

koti · Post by **koti** » 20 Jul 2009 10:10

Nikhil T wrote:
The biggest of the three deals to be inked is the project to buy 43,318 `close-quarter battle' (CQB) carbines off-the-shelf from abroad for around Rs 4,400 crore, which is to be followed by the indigenous manufacture of another 1,16,764 similar guns under transfer of technology.
1,16,764 + 43,618 carbines for 4400 crores comes out to be an astounding INR 2.75 Lakh per carbine. What are we buying ?? Even M16 carbine comes for about $1200 or 60,000 INR.

Maybe it includes ammunition and accessosaries like NVG's, day scopes, MARS sights, UGBL, and oil.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 20 Jul 2009 10:44

1) The INSAS is a fairly modern rifle. And The Indian Army is now full equipped with it. The article doesn't mention WHICH carbine is being purchased! It goes on harping about "modern carbine", etc.!

2) I thought that carbines have slightly lesser range than assault rifles. Then what is the logic behind replacing assault rifles COMPLETELY with carbines? Carbines are meant for Special forces and vehicle crews. But how can regular army units be equipped with carbines?

3) What is the status of the MINSAS carbine? I s that the carbine that is being talked about tin the article?

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Jul 2009 11:22

koti wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:"The biggest of the three deals to be inked is the project to buy 43,318 `close-quarter battle' (CQB) carbines off-the-shelf from abroad for around Rs 4,400 crore, which is to be followed by the indigenous manufacture of another 1,16,764 similar guns under transfer of technology."

1,16,764 + 43,618 carbines for 4400 crores comes out to be an astounding INR 2.75 Lakh per carbine. What are we buying ?? Even M16 carbine comes for about $1200 or 60,000 INR.
Maybe it includes ammunition and accessosaries like NVG's, day scopes, MARS sights, UGBL, and oil.

Also, this probably includes the cost of transfer of technology and the cost of local manufacturing setup.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 12:12

Rahul M wrote:ray sir, as I said vikram_s' posts had the relevant articles.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... -of-3.html
As the shuddering helicopter bears down on the tiny helipad atop a needle of ice at 20,997 feet(= 6400 meters), the rotor blades struggle to extract lift from the rarefied air. This is the ultimate test for helicopters. But the army’s new Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has proved that it can land at Sonam, bringing in much larger payloads than the Cheetah helicopters that have laboriously sustained the jawans in Sonam for the last two decades.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070220_alh_dhruv.htm
ALH Dhruv clears high-altitude tests, will join Siachen fleetnews
20 February 2007

Udhampur: India's advanced light helicopter (ALH) Dhruv has successfully cleared all test trials for regular high-altitude operations, especially in the Siachen glacier area of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dhruv was first inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 1998.

According to IAF sources, Dhruv cleared "all test trials" for flying over the Siachen glacier without "any error," and will now join the fleet of Chetak and Cheetah helicopters, which make daily trips to the area providing support services for troops based there.

With the clearance, the Dhruv has been validated for high-altitude, low temperature flying, which is essential for the maintenance of supply lines to the region.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, manufactured chopper underwent a six-month long trial period with the Chandigarh-based Dhruv squadron, and flew under different weather conditions.
also :
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 437840.cms
Bangalore ALH pilots fly high
Prashanth G N, TNN 8 October 2007, 01:31am IST

Three of its pilots were the first to take the ALH to heights higher than Manasbal, which was also the first time an Indian helicopter was taken to that height.

C D Upadhyay, Unni Pillai and M U Khan flew the ALH at an incredible altitude of 27,500 feet (= 8382 meters ! MIght I mention that this is the ONLY helicopter in the world with such high altitude performance ?! ) in the Siachen area braving icy winds.

Upadhyay describes that flight: "We started climbing stage by stage... 20,000 feet, 23, 24, 25, 26 and then 27,500. It had never been done before. We were hovering and watching a Cheetal (another helicopter) land just below us at 25,100 feet. Landing at that height isn’t easy. We were ready to pick up the pilot if something went wrong.

"Naturally, we had to be at a higher altitude. It was cold and we were wrapped in woollens. There wasn't a single rattle at 27,500 ft... We'd worked out if the Cheetal {cheetal is a cheetah with the more powerful TM3332B2, same engine as used in the initial version of the Dhruv}could make 25,000 feet, the ALH could do more. We hadn't tried it on the Siachen Glacier. We succeeded."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots tried out the copter at that height above the Leh runway and the hills before taking on the glacier.

Minutes before the flight, Upadhyay said: "We checked the engine, then the software. It was fine. We were confident the copter would perform 100 per cent. Then we checked on the oxygen. At 27,000 feet, you need pressurised oxygen and a continuous supply. We ensured that. We did all the checks. We just took-off. The ALH was a beauty."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots were the first to put the ALH through the glacier. They flew it in extreme cold conditions. They flew it after an overnight soak. Then in chilly winds, almost blizzard-like conditions.

Upadhyay and co. did not have risk on their mind. "We didn't have the time to think. So there was no worrying. In any case, flying is part of our life. We have done it before and we'll keep doing it in future. If you love what you do, you don't think of what turns out for you. You learn to expect that in a pilot's life."
Sir, do you wonder why we don't hold much with CAG's biles ?

Note on the dhruv programme : the helo was initially cleared for service with twin TM333 2B2 (1000 shp each) with the understanding that the more powerful shakti engine (1200 shp each) under joint development with TM at that time will be used in later versions. that is how military projects are developed the world over, you don't get the best version on day one.

IIRC army was the first recipient of the initial TM 333 versions since it had a pressing need for utility helos. it is myopic, obnoxious, misleading and sheer incompetence on the part of CAG to castigate a very successful program due to sheer lethargy.

an audit that comes two years late has absolutely no relevance to a dynamic project.

P.S. I'll move the latest discussions to army thread and/or mil aviation.

Rahul M,

I am all for the Dhruv to succeed, having been in operations in those areas. It will be a great asset and will give maximum flexibility to those fighting operations there, now and in the future.

At those altitudes, all helicopters shudder and so Shukla does not make much sense. I wish Shukla has mentioned the payload being carried when the Dhruv ‘shuddered on the needle of ice at 20,997 feet.'

I do no doubt that it achieved heights greater than what was designed. But, having extensive experience in helicopter, it is the take off and landing which is most tricky!

I might add that I have done extensive flying in helicopters in my service and practically had a dedicated helicopter lift during the Kargil issue and thereafter. I have had the great fortune twice to be the Station Commander of a helicopter unit. It was a sore point with my GOC that while he had commandeered my Jonga for himself, I came in for conference in great style with a helicopter!

What is my concern is that my own GOC died when his helicopter crashed because of overload in higer altitudes!

What was the payload during these trials is what is my concern. Was it what it was designed for when it reached these altitudes?

I am also tired of these Indian names given to foreign equipment. It confuses as to what is the real original. What is Shakti engine? Indigenous? Or just a name change?

"With the Bofors guns now being deployed at such high altitudes and its extended range here, we can strike deep with in the enemy territory. The Bofors can easily take on targets in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) towns such as Skardu and others," they said.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=701092

Post by AvinashR quoting PTI and NDTV.

How far is Skardu? What is the range of the Bofors?

Therefore, much is said, but then where is the reality. IF CAG is irresponsible, then it should be made defunct. How have they made this statement and why are they not accountable?

If they are two years old, then where is the rebuttal to make CAG look ridiculous and irrelevant?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 20 Jul 2009 12:38

RayC wrote:I am also tired of these Indian names given to foreign equipment. It confuses as to what is the real original. What is Shakti engine? Indigenous? Or just a name change?

Ray C sir, the Shakti is moving on from the Turbomeca TM 333-2B2-(original engine) Its a more powerful engine designed specifically for flying conditions like Siachen and beyond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti_engine

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 12:41

The distance of Skardu from Kargil is 173kms.

The distance from Skardu, capital of Baltistan, to Kargil town is all of 173 km.
http://www.chowk.com/articles/10627

So, I am sure Siachen should be further.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 12:42

Ray C sir, the Shakti is moving on from the Turbomeca TM 333-2B2-(original engine) Its a more powerful engine designed specifically for flying conditions like Siachen and beyond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti_engine

When that happens. I would be the proudest of us all!

I do not subscribe to Arindum Chaudhuri's 'Counting your Chickens Before they Hatch'!

ChandraS · Post by **ChandraS** » 20 Jul 2009 12:49

RayC wrote:
From the post by Rahul M wrote:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... -of-3.html ...
At those altitudes, all helicopters shudder and so Shukla does not make much sense. I wish Shukla has mentioned the payload being carried when the Dhruv ‘shuddered on the needle of ice at 20,997 feet.'
...
What was the payload during these trials is what is my concern. Was it what it was designed for when it reached these altitudes?
RayC sir, The bolded and underlined part in Rahul's post should answer your question on the payload it was carrying. Suffice to say it was more than the Cheetahs servicing Siachen so far. Of course we will still need to know the exact payload to figure out the cost effectiveness of the Dhruv (I fully expect the CAG to ask this question in their future reports ) but the fact that our own helo can reach that heights with more payload than before is good news indeed. Once the Shakti engine with uprated power comes online fully, it will only get better. vivek_ahuja had created some graphs showing the payload v/s range and v/s altitude for helos some time back. They should be helpful in providing some clarity. I will post them again once I can find them in the archives.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 20 Jul 2009 13:30

My office has blocked uploading - so cant upload files.. can somebody upload the screenshots of MSM from one of the March issues -- in which there was a appreciation letter from CO 202AA sqn to HAL..

- CAG report says as of Dec06 higher power engine was not developed... True.
- Feb07 - ALH trials for Siachen operations
- Sept07 -ALH cleared all trials for Siachen operations
- Aug07 - first flight of ALH with Shakti engine
- Oct07 - ALH flew at 27500ft altitude with TM 333-2B2
- Sept-Oct08 - ALH trials with Shakti engine at Siachen..

It is quite obvious that since the said CAG report was written a lot has taken place.. Did the CAG report include inputs from Feb-Sept07 period? Let alone ALH trials with Shakti at Siachen Sept-Dec08.

From Shukla's article...
- ALH can "land" at 21000ft (6400mts) with more payload than the Cheetah's
- ALH-Shakti can carry four times the load to 6400mts than the ALH with old engines.

I think that should rest the ability of ALH to land at high altitudes, and also payload carrying capacity at high altitudes.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 13:42

'greater payload' has no meaning.

It can be 1 kg more to be greater.

What is the maintenance and operation costs to make it viable?

The Attack Helicopters are great, but most of the time they look great since they are on the ground.

IAF pilots swear by the reliability of the eight-rotor Mi 26 helicopters though, the biggest ever in the world but, of course, Russia does not make them any more, times have changed and technology has improved towards digital systems for optimised performance.
Fantastic M 26s

I don't.

Seen them operating in Kargil and it was a headache!

The Glossies must match performance!

I would like to be clear. I would like the Dhruv or any other equipment to be able to achieve what is desired.

If prameters are met, it helps in operational planning.

However, if there is a doubt, it creates grey areas and if based on assumptions of equipment capability, things fail, the country will be least pleased and BRF members more!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jul 2009 13:52

off hand, depending on memory, from vivek ahuja's analysis shakti powered dhruv would have payload of around 400-500 kg at 6000 m.

what is the corresponding payload capacity for cheetah ? around 60 kg at 5500 m ?

there is no comparison !

When that happens. I would be the proudest of us all!

I do not subscribe to Arindum Chaudhuri's 'Counting your Chickens Before they Hatch'!

wth respect sir, you haven't read the articles we have posted for you. It has already happened, as in Aug 2007.
and a shakti powered dhruv has set a record !

I am also tired of these Indian names given to foreign equipment. It confuses as to what is the real original. What is Shakti engine? Indigenous? Or just a name change?

no reason to be tired when Indians give Indian names to products they have played a part in creating.

this is what the JV partner turbomeca says about the project.
http://www.turbomeca.com/public/turbome ... 06&mid=615

image
The Ardiden is intended for helicopters in the 5 to 6.5-ton class. For its first application, the Dhruv, a first engine variant christened the Ardiden 1H1 (or "Shakti" in India) is jointly developed and producted with HAL.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 20 Jul 2009 14:09

RayC wrote:'greater payload' has no meaning.

I can be 1 kg more.

What is the maintenance and operation costs to make it viable?

that is 1kg more than Cheetal "with TM 333-2B2 engine"; and then fourtimes that with Shakti engine - which has already been tested for Siachen ops..

Anyway there is no reason for the maintainence to be higher.. only lower - bcoz it is internal parts procurement & servicing.... HAL has stationed technicians at Manasbal for immediate tech support.. We dont have to fly in parts/technicians from outside or ferry the helicopter to outside..

at Manasbal Dhruv has had a 87.5% serviceability rate.. So far IA has not made adverse comment on maintainence & operation costs.. Even the CAG report which faulted the shortfall in altidue/payload has not mentioned any thing regards to maintainence & operaition costs.. if there was problem with operations costs - i guess, they wouldn't have missed the chance.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 14:11

Dhruv cabin

The 7.3m³ cabin accommodates several layouts. As a passenger helicopter the cabin accommodates 12 or 14 seats. A crew door and a rearward sliding door are installed on each side of the fuselage for the military helicopters. The cargo compartment at the rear of the cabin has a volume of 2.16m³. Clamshell doors at the rear of the cabin provide easy and fast access for loading and unloading cargo.

Configured as an air ambulance the helicopter can carry two stretcher patients and four survivors or medical attendants or four stretcher patients and two medical attendants.

Engines

The prototype helicopter is fitted with two Turbomeca TM 333-2C or 2B2 engines rated at 740kW take-off power. A more powerful engine for the Dhruv, the Shakti (which carries the French name Ardiden 1H) rated at 900kW is being developed under a cooperative agreement between HAL and Turbomeca and will be manufactured at Bangalore. First flight with the new engine took place in August 2007 and it was certified in 2008.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/dhruv/

Any iinks that indicates this has been done.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 14:13

Anyway there is no reason for the maintainence to be higher.. only lower - bcoz it is internal parts procurement & servicing.... HAL has stationed technicians at Manasbal for immediate tech support.. We dont have to fly in parts/technicians from outside or ferry the helicopter to outside..

And the Cheetahs are not having technicians?

Why Manasbal?

That is nowhere near Siachen!

It should have been based at Leh!

Next, while IL 76 is a fabulous aircraft, yet the cost to operate is mind boggling.

#

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Jul 2009 14:16

Here is the link Ray sir

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRtypen ... RDhruv.htm

16 August 2007 - The Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv, the technology showpiece of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), soared to greater heights with the more powerful Shakti engine and in weaponised role.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 20 Jul 2009 14:20

RayC wrote:
Anyway there is no reason for the maintainence to be higher.. only lower - bcoz it is internal parts procurement & servicing.... HAL has stationed technicians at Manasbal for immediate tech support.. We dont have to fly in parts/technicians from outside or ferry the helicopter to outside..
And the Cheetahs are not having technicians?

Why Manasbal?

That is nowhere hear Siachen!

Dont the Cheetah's repair themselves.. do they need technicians?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 14:24

rakall wrote:

Dont the Cheetah's repair themselves.. do they need technicians?

They do, but then I was told in the post, that maintainability was easy since HAL chaps were around!

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 20 Jul 2009 14:36

RayC wrote:
rakall wrote:

Dont the Cheetah's repair themselves.. do they need technicians?
They do, but then I was told in the post, that maintainability was easy since HAL chaps were around!

Yes.. Since HAL technicians can do all when it comes to Dhruv - we dont have to depend on any parts or tech support from otuside.. even in case of serious problems..

I mentioned Manasbal bcoz that is a known data point where HAL has sationed as group of personnel & inventory of parts close to the AA sqd to help them with the maintainence.... which definitely reduces the downtime - as you dont have to fly in somebody from Bangalore.. let alone Russia/France.. That has definitely translated into a very good servicability for Dhruv's at Manasbal..

And if required - for Siachen ops, for maintainence at Leh it is easy to take support from HAL folks at Manasbal.. rather than wait for parts/techsupport to come from Blr/Russia/France..

If there was problem with maintainence support or maintianence costs -- CAG would have latched on to it...

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 20 Jul 2009 15:01

Any iinks that indicates this has been done.

An armed version of the home-grown Dhruv helicopter fitted with rockets and a 20mm gun and another version with a more powerful engine made their maiden flights here today.

The "weaponised" version of the Dhruv, built by state-run aviation major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is equipped with "fire and forget" air-to-air missiles, 70 mm rockets that can be fired in direct and indirect mode and a 20 mm gun turret. The other Dhruv flew with the high-power Shakti engine that was jointly designed by HAL and France's Turbomeca.

The Shakti engine was designed to meet the power requirements of the armed version of Dhruv at high altitudes. The new engine develops around 30 per cent more power than the 333-2B2 engine, which translates to a more than 150 per cent increase in payload capability.

Certification flight tests for the Dhruv powered by the Shakti engine would include tests in Bangalore, at sea level and at high altitudes. There will also be cold and hot weather and desert trials. "The delivery of the first Dhruv with a Shakti engine should be made in the middle of 2009," HAL Chairman Ashok K Baweja told a press conference.

http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news ... s/19/20/19

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 20 Jul 2009 15:01

atreya wrote:1) The INSAS is a fairly modern rifle. And The Indian Army is now full equipped with it. The article doesn't mention WHICH carbine is being purchased! It goes on harping about "modern carbine", etc.!

I guess that would be decided after trials.

2) I thought that carbines have slightly lesser range than assault rifles. Then what is the logic behind replacing assault rifles COMPLETELY with carbines? Carbines are meant for Special forces and vehicle crews. But how can regular army units be equipped with carbines?

Perhaps I missed it, but no where does the article says anything about replacing insas.
All over the world, regular infantry is equipped with carbines alongside assault rifles. Carbines are not specifically for special forces. Short length matter in closed spaces, as you surely know.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Jul 2009 15:39

Ok.

Other heptr support require support.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 20 Jul 2009 16:30

Whatever they acquire, I hope they acquire latest ,and easily customizable rifle .

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 20 Jul 2009 17:58

Parijat Gaur wrote:
atreya wrote:1) The INSAS is a fairly modern rifle. And The Indian Army is now full equipped with it. The article doesn't mention WHICH carbine is being purchased! It goes on harping about "modern carbine", etc.!
I guess that would be decided after trials.
2) I thought that carbines have slightly lesser range than assault rifles. Then what is the logic behind replacing assault rifles COMPLETELY with carbines? Carbines are meant for Special forces and vehicle crews. But how can regular army units be equipped with carbines?
Perhaps I missed it, but no where does the article says anything about replacing insas.
All over the world, regular infantry is equipped with carbines alongside assault rifles. Carbines are not specifically for special forces. Short length matter in closed spaces, as you surely know.

Oh? I didn't know that. Though, if I think about it, you are right. For eg. the US Army is equipped with M4A1 along with M16A2. If thats how the IA is going to be equipped (carbine, alongside assault rifle), then its really good. However, how do you think the weapons will be issued? Will it be every soldier's personal choice? Or will it depend on the mission?
And I also hope that this elusive "modern carbine" referred to in the article turns out to be MINSAS! That would make a lot of things easier!!