INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Singha
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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2009 19:56

various treaties forbid sale of nuclear subs but they left out leasing it. also per mtcr
it can onlee be leased with weapons of 300km max range.

we are going to be leasing it until end of life for sure.

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby chetak » 18 Jul 2009 20:39

sum wrote:
Singha wrote:just some creative license lads :mrgreen:

I will be up @ 5am on 26th June constantly refreshing this page. be one hell of a day methinks.

hope MMS doesnt get the flu and postpone :evil:

Singha sir,
You mean Mrs.MMS since she is the coconut breaker!!! :wink:

Dammit, the announcement should have been made on 25th...this waiting is killing. :evil:



Inputs are that 24th is the D day.

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Gerard » 18 Jul 2009 20:45

Does the lease allow the replacement of the Nerpa with another Akula if repairs etc are needed?

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby geeth » 18 Jul 2009 20:58

>>>It is possible that ATV is 12000 tons submerged displacement with under powered reactor. The 80MW reactor would mean that top speed would be around 20kt which would be adequate for operational purposes as beyond that speed the sub makes too much noise and sonars don't work.

IMO your specifications are highly speculative. For eg, take the power requirement of a conventional sub of similar size (not 12000 Tons) for its submerged top speed. You will get an idea. The extra power required will be to run the auxiliaries to run the reactor plant like coolant pumps, feed pumps etc. Plus some more additional power for the weapon load.

From available information, the ATV is heavily modified to suit the indian requirements / Indian weapon system. To say it is Charlie, Akula etc could only be partly true, because the modifications required are substantial.

Unnithan seems to have good contacts..

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Austin » 18 Jul 2009 21:14

Gerard wrote:Does the lease allow the replacement of the Nerpa with another Akula if repairs etc are needed?


That would be difficult , unless the Russian can lease their Akula from their operational strength or we end up leasing atleast 2 so that one is operationally available most of the times.

One interesting aspect of the new Chakra lease as I was reading on the old Chakra was that it was the first Charlie 1 commissioned by the Soviets in 1967 K-43 , which was leased in 1988 equipped with 8 SS-N-7 missile these missile specially the SS-N-7 were not that great and vulnerable to jamming as good as the Styx , considering its age of ~ 20 years when it was leased it was as good as a dead horse though the soviets had refurbished it and put a new sonar and reports from IN said it did quite well.

Now compare that to the new INS Chakra which is the most modern Russian submarine of Akula-2 type and its a new construction , so as good as a new submarine with all the latest system , weapons and sensors. Things have changed a lot in the past 2 decades :)

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2009 22:34

Singha wrote:just some creative license lads :mrgreen:

I will be up @ 5am on 26th June constantly refreshing this page. be one hell of a day methinks.

hope MMS doesnt get the flu and postpone :evil:


Shouldnt it be in July and not June?

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby derkonig » 19 Jul 2009 00:24

edited.
Last edited by Rahul M on 19 Jul 2009 00:53, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: let's not discuss the klingons in this thread, else everything will go downhill pretty rapidly.

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby putnanja » 19 Jul 2009 00:44

Nuclear submarine trial on July 26

Nuclear submarine trial on July 26

New Delhi: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will launch the country’s first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine at the Visakhapatnam port for trial on July 26.

— PTI

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Baljeet » 19 Jul 2009 01:03

can the statesman get annuerism, flu or something else before his graceful presence rubs the salt in wounds of many people. It is too soon for him to be going at military base. He is not even Commander in Chief it is the president. How come President is not doing the honors? Arihant is not his boat he does not command the miliatry. It is President of India's Navy and Boat.
8) :x :x

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2009 01:06

Singha wrote:various treaties forbid sale of nuclear subs but they left out leasing it. also per mtcr
it can onlee be leased with weapons of 300km max range.

we are going to be leasing it until end of life for sure.

Singha-ji: I am being a lazy dog; not to chase those two bones.

Could you pls tell the operative words of those tries that forbid:
    >>sale of nuclear subs ?
    >>per mtcr it can onlee be leased with weapons of 300km max range?

IIRC MTCR has no mention of "lease" or prevents a nation from arming its rail-wagon, ship or submarine with its own 10 meter tall missile with 650Km range.

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Rahul M » 19 Jul 2009 01:18

IIRC MTCR has no mention of "lease" or prevents a nation from arming its rail-wagon, ship or submarine with its own 10 meter tall missile with 650Km range.

he means weapons of more than 300 km range from abroad which is what MTCR prevents.

desi kshepanastra can of course be loaded !

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby k prasad » 19 Jul 2009 01:35

geeth wrote:Unnithan seems to have good contacts..


More than that... its just the deliberate leaks by the govt. nothing else.

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Gerard » 19 Jul 2009 02:22

>>sale of nuclear subs ?


See
http://cns.miis.edu/npr/pdfs/cmoltz61.pdf
CLOSING THE NPT LOOPHOLE ON EXPORTS OF NAVAL PROPULSION REACTORS
by James Clay Moltz

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby sivab » 19 Jul 2009 02:30

http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/19/stories ... 051800.htm
Indigenous nuclear submarine to be launched for trial

J. Balaji & Sandeep Dikshit

NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will launch India’s first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine at Vishakapatnam for trial on July 26.

Andhra Pradesh Chief Minister Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy conveyed this to journalists here on Saturday after meeting Dr. Singh to discuss various issues pertaining to the State. Top defence and Navy officials will participate in the programme.
...
India briefly used a nuclear submarine leased by Russia from 1988 to 1991. Since then it has been trying to build one of its own. It has signed an agreement for the transfer of a couple of nuclear-powered Russian Akula class submarines, one of which is likely to be inducted by the Indian Navy this year itself.
...

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2009 03:56

Gerard wrote:
>>sale of nuclear subs ?


See
http://cns.miis.edu/npr/pdfs/cmoltz61.pdf
CLOSING THE NPT LOOPHOLE ON EXPORTS OF NAVAL PROPULSION REACTORS
by James Clay Moltz


That is the wet dream wish list of NPA, did it ever make it to NPT to become the operative principle that countries that signed NPT are bound to?

Quoting a non-proliferation papers by NPA as evidence of the operative element of international treaty that limits sovereign Indian integration with other states is misleading.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gerard » 19 Jul 2009 04:54

Did you read the whole thing?
The author admits that the NPT does not require IAEA safeguards on the special fissionable material used in Naval reactors and that the sale or lease of nuclear submarines is allowed.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 19 Jul 2009 05:05

Gerard wrote:The author admits that the NPT does not require IAEA safeguards on the special fissionable material used in Naval reactors and that the sale or lease of nuclear submarines is allowed.

It was a deliberate loophole and well recognised. It is for effect during the war with soviet for NATO. In case something bad happens in US, the submarines will come under the command of other NATO countries. To provide for this, the NPT was written in that fashion.

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Hitesh » 19 Jul 2009 05:13

shiv wrote:
Hitesh wrote:Don't forget that although most of their subs were sitting dockside for many years, the fact that they designed it, tested it, took them out for trials, and even did a tour once means that they still have a leg up on us in terms of knowledge and experience in designing, producing, and operating a nuke sub.


OK. I have not forgotten that although most of their subs were sitting dockside for many years, the fact that they designed it, tested it, took them out for trials, and even did a tour once means that they still have a leg up on us

Having not forgotten that, and being kindly reminded by you of this despite the lack of amnesia, is there anything else you would like me (or India, or anyone else) to do other than acknowledge your masterful ability to wag a superciliously patronizing finger and put upstart Indian zits in their place?

I remain, as always a willing student.


Don't take it personally if I call a spade a spade and do not go with the jingoism, okay? I ran into an ex USN submariner that I went to college with a decade ago. He was part of the nuclear engineering class while I was in mechanical engineering. I was telling him about the ATV program and he said good things but he told me that we are still behind the Chinese even though their first generation subs were crap. Nothing beats than a learning experience and that's what the Chinese have over us even though if we design and create a sub better than the chinese first generation sub.

Even they do get it wrong in the first place, at least they have enough experience to know what they did wrong and make sure not to repeat that mistake. We haven't got that experience yet. The point I am trying to make is that don't dismiss the Chinese nuke sub program just because they haven't produce subs that could compete with western subs on the same levels. The fact remains that the Chinese are ahead of us in the learning curve and we are just starting. In fact, they have produced a second generation class of boomers and attack subs based on their experience with their first generation. The second generation showed that there have been huge significant improvements since the first generation. We are designing our first generation while they have commissioned and operated their second generation class. This means we are effectively one generation behind the Chinese in terms of knowledge and experience any way you dice it.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Bishwa » 19 Jul 2009 05:40

Hitesh and others,
Did the chinese have any experience studying a working nuclear sub at close quarters before they designed theirs first gen? Did any of their staff work inside a nuclear sub before their first gen subs came along? Do we have any info on this

Would these factors make a difference ?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Paul » 19 Jul 2009 06:00

I ran into an ex USN submariner that I went to college with a decade ago. He was part of the nuclear engineering class while I was in mechanical engineering. I was telling him about the ATV program and he said good things but he told me that we are still behind the Chinese even though their first generation subs were crap. Nothing beats than a learning experience and that's what the Chinese have over us even though if we design and create a sub better than the chinese first generation sub.


So basically you ex-USN buddy wags a finger and you come over and parrot the message....does he know of INS chakra and the Nerpa leasing program. :((

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2009 06:04

Gerard wrote:Did you read the whole thing?
The author admits that the NPT does not require IAEA safeguards on the special fissionable material used in Naval reactors and that the sale or lease of nuclear submarines is allowed.

That is precisely the reason when I asked that question to Singha in the first place. No point in imagining being bound by a rope when there is not rope in the first place, and one does not have to be psyched into reacting to imaginary constrain. I am sufficiently read on NPT (yet I do not claim mastery) thus wanted to know if I missed something.

I did'nt had to read to whole thing to know if it contains pertinent information that I sought on the subject matter. Thank you.

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2009 06:16

Hitesh wrote:Don't take it personally if I call a spade a spade and do not go with the jingoism, okay? I ran into an ex USN submariner that I went to college with a decade ago. He was part of the nuclear engineering class while I was in mechanical engineering. I was telling him about the ATV program and he said good things but he told me that we are still behind the Chinese even though their first generation subs were crap. Nothing beats than a learning experience and that's what the Chinese have over us even though if we design and create a sub better than the chinese first generation sub.

Even they do get it wrong in the first place, at least they have enough experience to know what they did wrong and make sure not to repeat that mistake. We haven't got that experience yet. The point I am trying to make is that don't dismiss the Chinese nuke sub program just because they haven't produce subs that could compete with western subs on the same levels. The fact remains that the Chinese are ahead of us in the learning curve and we are just starting. In fact, they have produced a second generation class of boomers and attack subs based on their experience with their first generation. The second generation showed that there have been huge significant improvements since the first generation. We are designing our first generation while they have commissioned and operated their second generation class. This means we are effectively one generation behind the Chinese in terms of knowledge and experience any way you dice it.

Hitesh: While Chinese have more learning experience in making nuclear sub, but also recognize that Chinese were trying to make "Great Leap" in nuclear power reactor, a domain that Chinese have lagged being Indian by several decades. If you see when did the Chinese started making nuclear power plant, IIRC almost 2 decades behind India.

Thus to make their nuclear powered sub they had to risk 'Big Leap' , throw money and time to gain missing experience for a useless prototype N sub. Contrast that with what Indian have under their belt before ATV/Arihant dives into sea ! One needs to see it from technological perspective too.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2009 06:24

ramana wrote:IIT Delhi should be proud of its alumni.

Ramana ji, very very true. IIT-Delhi should be proud of its alumni of very key people in ATV project that have made Arihant a reality. Thanks to all of those people.
I only wish I had even a microscopic role in its realization ....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 19 Jul 2009 07:21

Gagan wrote:Naval Brahmos is yet to be tested. If INS Arihant has 650mm torpedo tubes, it can fire off the brahmos through those.

The name Arihant has its origins in the Jain religion.

Brahmos is limited to VLS launch in submarines there is no tube launched variant.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 19 Jul 2009 08:41

The Brahmos hasn't even been tested underwater yet. let us wait for that to happen.
Brahmos already has the ability to be fired at any angle, how difficult will it be to eject the cannister out of a torpedo tube, and then for an underwater gas generator to fire and take it out of the water?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Hitesh » 19 Jul 2009 09:29

Paul wrote:
I ran into an ex USN submariner that I went to college with a decade ago. He was part of the nuclear engineering class while I was in mechanical engineering. I was telling him about the ATV program and he said good things but he told me that we are still behind the Chinese even though their first generation subs were crap. Nothing beats than a learning experience and that's what the Chinese have over us even though if we design and create a sub better than the chinese first generation sub.


So basically you ex-USN buddy wags a finger and you come over and parrot the message....does he know of INS chakra and the Nerpa leasing program. :((


He is totally aware of that but he said it is not the same thing as designing and building a sub. You have to know the insides in and out and what makes it tick and how to build it the right way or how not to build it the wrong way. There is a process that goes into designing and building a nuke sub that simply cannot come from experience of operating a nuke sub. You have to design and build a nuke sub in order to get that experience and be able to build on that wealth of knowledge and experience. For example, I know how to operate a car or even fix it but I sure don't know how to design it or build it from scratch. Even if the Chinese built a crappy reactor that didn't work, at least they have the experience of designing and building a nuclear reactor for a nuke sub. India is getting there but still the fact remains that the Chinese has 30 years over us to improve on that wealth of knowledge and experience any way you dice it or not.

I would only say that after we build our second generation class subs that we could be able to judge whether we have equaled or surpassed the Chinese in terms of designing and building nuke subs capability because after building a second generation sub, the learning curve begins to plateau and it becomes an incremental learning and improvement process.

For example, when Tata designed and built its first car, Indica or something like that, it did not get good reviews and Tata was still behind other companies that had a huge start on Tata, but when Tata began designing the second generation car, Tata began to catch up and in later generations, Tata was able to overtake other companies in the prowess of designing and building a world class car. What I am saying is that India is in the nascent stage of designing and building a nuke sub regardless of how much better the sub is over the Chinese's first generation sub and Chinese is already building and commissioning a second generation sub. We have to realize that the Chinese has a head start on us and if we want to beat Chinese, we have to move full steam ahead and damn all the torpedoes and design and build the second generation class. We have to avoid repeating the fiasco in the 90s where we learned how to build and assemble the U-212 subs with technological assistance from Germany and we lost that knowledge and experience when India did not built anymore subs.

I am very proud of what India has done with its nuclear submarine program and wish all the success upon it but still I am pragmatic enough to know where we stand and how long of a road we have ahead of us before we can validly make a claim that we are up with the big boys in the nuke sub league.
Last edited by Hitesh on 19 Jul 2009 09:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 19 Jul 2009 09:30

A slightly different question: How confidential is the screw of INS Arihant? - how does the IN sanitise the area where the sea trial are supposed to take place esp. against sneaky folks like Unkil's Virginia class subs who might loiter around to snoop.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Hitesh » 19 Jul 2009 09:42

The screw is one of the most important part of a nuke sub and it can make or break the sub's true capabilities and prowess. The screw plays a large role in determining how silent the sub is and can give off unique and identifiable sonar characteristics. Hell, the USN has gone to extraordinary lengths to protect the design and secrets of the screws. For example, IIRC, there was a screw from an aircraft carrier that had been decommissioned two decades ago and a museum wanted to display the screw but had to jump through extraordinary jumps before getting clearance from the USN to showcase the screw. In fact, the USN only agreed to it after the museum agreed to have the screw modified significantly enough it would not expose any engineering or design secrets.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby sum » 19 Jul 2009 09:52

It has signed an agreement for the transfer of a couple of nuclear-powered Russian Akula class submarines, one of which is likely to be inducted by the Indian Navy this year itself.

Once again a report indicating two Akulas are to be leased... :twisted:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 19 Jul 2009 10:02

Raja Bose wrote:A slightly different question: How confidential is the screw of INS Arihant? - how does the IN sanitise the area where the sea trial are supposed to take place esp. against sneaky folks like Unkil's Virginia class subs who might loiter around to snoop.

If the sub purposely, continuously and loudly generated white noise with acoustic transducers then it would become quite difficult to distinguish the signature of the screw from all that, I guess.

Everybody knows the sub is going to be there. So we might as well put up a show for the audience :)

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Re: ATV News and Discussion - 1

Postby shiv » 19 Jul 2009 10:36

Hitesh wrote: This means we are effectively one generation behind the Chinese in terms of knowledge and experience any way you dice it.


You have already said that once. And I acknowledged it the first time. I asked you a question. So what do you want me or anyone else to do about it? Why are you repeating a well known fact on here as if no one else knows about it - or does it become more special and true now that you have said it once and repeated it once again.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 19 Jul 2009 11:00

hitesh, POV of a 3rd party here. :)

the above post captures my exact reaction to reading your original post.
don't you think that is simply stating the obvious, not to mention off-topic ?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Jul 2009 11:10

if outright sale of nuclear submarine is not closed by any treaty or unofficial tech denial regime, why did India choose to lease rather than buy ? afterall we are said to have paid the money to complete the Nerpa and its sister which a typical lessee would not do.

does it impart some addl legal flexibility in rotating Akulas between IN and RN when time comes for MLU and reactor refueling ?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 19 Jul 2009 11:11

Hitesh wrote:The screw is one of the most important part of a nuke sub and it can make or break the sub's true capabilities and prowess.
...


I know. My question was how secretive is INS Arihant's ? :) Not all screw designs are top secret and guarded like the US does for its nuke subs. Moreover screw design and fabrication is in itself a science which few have mastered - I wonder where India fares in this domain (or is some ToT involved from Russians/Japanese). Given the secrecy over the whole ATV project and the fixation of the press on 'miniaturization' of the reactor, never seen any tidbits about this.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 19 Jul 2009 11:12

Singha,
Isnt the agreement "Lease with option of buying at end of lease"? That way IN gets to see the maal but not before it verifies that it is not an albatross.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 19 Jul 2009 11:36

RB, we will be able to guess 'how advanced' depending on if we get a peek or not ! :wink:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 19 Jul 2009 12:24

Rahul M wrote:RB, we will be able to guess 'how advanced' depending on if we get a peek or not ! :wink:


:lol: Lets hope for the best and hopefully we will learn the rest. Getting blades from Russians might have been done (even if no ToT on fabrication)...you get a mature tech and some breathing space.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Jul 2009 12:25

well even SSK like U212 launching, the screw was covered up, so no doubt Arihant's case will be similar.

italy
http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/italy/ ... t212.4.jpg

germany
http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/German- ... System.jpg

btw why do western subs not feature a akula style towed sonar?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 19 Jul 2009 13:06

Hitesh wrote:
I am very proud of what India has done with its nuclear submarine program and wish all the success upon it but still I am pragmatic enough to know where we stand and how long of a road we have ahead of us before we can validly make a claim that we are up with the big boys in the nuke sub league.

It is this generation which is will leapfrog decades of experience to master new tech. This was not possible 20 years ago but learning material and tools and designing has changed significantly on the last 20 years that countries with state resources can attain such level. Of course mastery over the basics and foundation has to be there for this to work.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 19 Jul 2009 13:09

Western subs do have towed sonar arrays ofcourse...the TB 16 fat line and TB-23 thin line ones used by USN. They are deployed via tubes conforming to the hull afaik unlike the teardrop container of the Akula.


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