Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gerard » 20 Jul 2009 05:30


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 20 Jul 2009 09:42

This is the biggest relief I had in recent times.
Finally, our soldiers have something to cheer about. It must have been really embarrassing for these soldiers to find themselves with WW2 vintage sterling guns when their enemies on the other side are fielding MP-5 and other advanced carbines and SMG's.

Any idea about the possible options for the foreign carbine? (MTAR, M4, SAR, SIG 552,MP5A3)
Regarding the second deal, is it the new MSMC or Excalibur that has been selected?
AFAIK the third deal will be for TAR-21. Iv'e seen it with para SF some time back. Maybe they were evaluating that rifle then and have finally agreed for that.

And it would be a lot better if there was an upgrading program for handguns used by military and para-military forces too.
They are still using ancient Browning HP35's.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 20 Jul 2009 09:56

koti wrote:AFAIK the third deal will be for TAR-21. Iv'e seen it with para SF some time back. Maybe they were evaluating that rifle then and have finally agreed for that.

You saw them because a lot of them are already in service for some time now and have been used in many combat operations.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ovein » 20 Jul 2009 09:58

Where we are with Zittara in this regard?? I truly believe that small Arms is something we should look at with a view to 100 indigenization.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 20 Jul 2009 10:06

Parijat Gaur wrote:
koti wrote:AFAIK the third deal will be for TAR-21. Iv'e seen it with para SF some time back. Maybe they were evaluating that rifle then and have finally agreed for that.

You saw them because a lot of them are already in service for some time now and have been used in many combat operations.

They are officially in service with SFF. The paras did not adopt it yet. Neither did Ghatak or other SF. But many were evaluating it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 20 Jul 2009 15:08

^^ I am pretty sure they are used by para. Even during Aero India, the para were equipped with tar-21. You can see the pictures in the Aero India thread now in archives.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 20 Jul 2009 15:37

They are officially in service with SFF. The paras did not adopt it yet. Neither did Ghatak or other SF. But many were evaluating it.


Nope the Paras have them. The SG of the SFF was the initial testing/eval unit. Dont know if they still have it yet.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Samay » 20 Jul 2009 16:19

According to the above article the IA is considering same caliber for both assault rifle and carbine, why are they sticking to same 5.56X45 mm for both of them 1 2, why isn't larger caliber considered for assault rifles?
for assault rifles us-army is looking for some next gen assault rifle

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby pgbhat » 20 Jul 2009 16:55

^^^^
The larger calibre issue has already been discussed to death here .....
An alternative to NATO 5.56mm cartridges
There seems to be some good reasons for sticking to NATO 5.56mm ..
The thread has a LOT of info so worth a read.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby babbupandey » 20 Jul 2009 17:08

Talking of modernization, the carbines will be imported and this is shameful. India should have it's own R&D and manufacturing facilities for small arms which need mass-manufacturing.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 20 Jul 2009 20:16

Samay wrote:According to the above article the IA is considering same caliber for both assault rifle and carbine, why are they sticking to same 5.56X45 mm for both of them 1 2, why isn't larger caliber considered for assault rifles?
for assault rifles us-army is looking for some next gen assault rifle

Incidentally the picture of the next gen rifle that you posted that the US army is looking into (the FN-SCAR L) is also 5.56x45 mm. Also it is for Army Special Forces only currently, not the entire US Army. The FN-SCAR comes in two variants L (for Light) and H (for Heavy) and the H variant is the one that uses 7.62x51mm and both variants are intended to be carried by the rangers (more L than H, going by the procurement numbers). The US order has about a 5:1 ratio for standard L vs. standard H ordered, but the sniper L vs. sniper H are around the same #.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 20 Jul 2009 22:38

babbupandey wrote:Talking of modernization, the carbines will be imported and this is shameful. India should have it's own R&D and manufacturing facilities for small arms which need mass-manufacturing.


There were a lot of posts on how the INSAS carbine never lived up to its promise. So most likely this is to fill that gap which wasnt filled. Atleast now the IA forces can have the weapons unless the order gets cancelled due to 'corruption'!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Samay » 21 Jul 2009 00:03

ramana wrote:
babbupandey wrote:Talking of modernization, the carbines will be imported and this is shameful. India should have it's own R&D and manufacturing facilities for small arms which need mass-manufacturing.


There were a lot of posts on how the INSAS carbine never lived up to its promise. So most likely this is to fill that gap which wasnt filled. Atleast now the IA forces can have the weapons unless the order gets cancelled due to 'corruption'!

I guess Tavor is made by IMI,already blacklisted :?:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby babbupandey » 21 Jul 2009 00:44

That is another point. INSAS rifles are allegedly reverse-engineered rifles of German origin. It angers me think that we do not have any proper ballistic research institute which focusses on small arms, which are used everyday. We could save billions of dollars if only we had our indigenously designed rifles, carbines and bullets. Not to mention saving ourselves headache of acquiring them (getting approval from MoD, the external affairs ministry and what not for importing such items).
I heard that in Kargil war, each shell fired from Bofors gun was imported and worth Rs 40,000! - imagine if we had our own industry. I am sure it would have cost no more than Rs 5,000.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sandipan » 21 Jul 2009 03:01

Good Lord! this is the news I was waiting for, the previous page in the same thread we had a discussion on effectiveness of INSAS and can we continue with it. It seems, Indian defence planners have woken up to the situation and possibly provide our Jawans with a modern weapon for coming decades! Where are the people

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jul 2009 03:26

babbupandey wrote:That is another point. INSAS rifles are allegedly reverse-engineered rifles of German origin.

really ? which gun ? why not do some basic reading on the project ?
the details are all available on the net. start with wiki perhaps ?

It angers me think that we do not have any proper ballistic research institute which focusses on small arms, which are used everyday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armament_R ... ablishment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_B ... Laboratory
==================

Good Lord! this is the news I was waiting for, the previous page in the same thread we had a discussion on effectiveness of INSAS and can we continue with it. It seems, Indian defence planners have woken up to the situation and possibly provide our Jawans with a modern weapon for coming decades! Where are the people

no sandipan the articles talk about carbines which is not the same as assault rifle, which the INSAS version is.
please read this again.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS ... 795865.cms

INSAS rifles will be replaced (if at all) starting late 2010's or early 2020's with the F-INSAS programme.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jul 2009 04:02

I'm trying to guess the roles of the 3 different deals mentioned.
guys please pitch in with your thoughts too.

from the link :

The 1.13-million strong Army is now on course to ink three deals for 3,90,000 new-generation carbines and assault rifles.


The biggest of the three deals to be inked is the project to buy 43,318 `close-quarter battle' (CQB) carbines off-the-shelf from abroad for around Rs 4,400 crore, which is to be followed by the indigenous manufacture of another 1,16,764 similar guns under transfer of technology.

"The global tender for CQB carbines was issued in early-2008. The deal should be inked within the 2009-10 fiscal," said a source.

Soldiers will find the compact and modular carbines, equipped with night-vision devices, laser designators and detachable under-barrel grenade launchers, much easier to operate than full-length rifles.

somehow I get the feeling that this lot is meant for the mechanised infantry and amphib brigades. it's likely that more mech inf btns will be raised ?
and of course COIN units.

Under the second Rs 2,183 crore project, the Ordnance Factory Board is to manufacture 2,18,320 advanced carbines based on the new 5.56-mm model developed indigenously.

normal use throughout the army ?

The third deal, in turn, is the procurement of 10,730 light-weight assault rifles for Rs 385 crore. Incidentally, the 10 existing battalions of Parachute Regiment, each with around 850 soldiers, have now more or less been reorganised into seven Para-SF (Special Forces) and three Para-SF (airborne) units.

this one has me really confused, is it for the paras as the article hints (are they unhappy with the tavor ?) or something else ?

Army, however, says the 40 specialised items earmarked for special forces are now being fast-tracked. These include weaponry like TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles and M4A1 carbines, ( :!: it's decided ?! )all-terrain multi-utility vehicles and GPS navigation systems, modular acquisition devices and laser range-finders, high-frequency communication sets and combat free-fall parachutes, among other equipment, from countries like the US, Israel, France and Sweden.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ssmitra » 21 Jul 2009 04:22

Rahul M wrote:Army, however, says the 40 specialised items earmarked for special forces are now being fast-tracked. These include weaponry like TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles and M4A1 carbines, ( :!: it's decided ?! )all-terrain multi-utility vehicles and GPS navigation systems, modular acquisition devices and laser range-finders, high-frequency communication sets and combat free-fall parachutes, among other equipment, from countries like the US, Israel, France and Sweden.
[/quote]

@ Rahul or RayC or any other gyani log, how would the decision to choose these rifles have been made. Is there a similar sort of long term test carried out as seen for the big guns.
M4A1 would be a decent choice but why not the G36 or HK416/417 or even the newer Russian AK107/108 series which comes in the standard NATO 5.56mm and has the balanced action, with dual, counter-moving gas pistons above the barrel supposed to vastly improve accuracy.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby babbupandey » 21 Jul 2009 04:27

Rahul M wrote:really ? which gun ? why not do some basic reading on the project ?
the details are all available on the net. start with wiki perhaps ?


Dear Rahul,

I appreciate your encouragement for reading more articles and being specific but can you do it in a polite manner? I have noticed this for a long time all across BR forums that you are belligerent whenever you want to reply to or be critical of anybody's post - except of course the forum God's. Is it because you have a tag of 'Forum Moderator' right below your name?
A little decency is all I ask for - as is famously written behind the trucks 'tameez se bolo, izzat muft milegi' :D

-babbupandey

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Nikhil T » 21 Jul 2009 04:55

The biggest of the three deals to be inked is the project to buy 43,318 `close-quarter battle' (CQB) carbines off-the-shelf from abroad for around Rs 4,400 crore, which is to be followed by the indigenous manufacture of another 1,16,764 similar guns under transfer of technology.


1,16,764 + 43,618 carbines for 4400 crores comes out to be an astounding INR 2.75 Lakh per carbine. What are we buying ?? Even M16 carbine comes for about $1200 or 60,000 INR.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 21 Jul 2009 05:11

ssmitra wrote:
Rahul M wrote:Army, however, says the 40 specialised items earmarked for special forces are now being fast-tracked. These include weaponry like TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles and M4A1 carbines, ( :!: it's decided ?! )all-terrain multi-utility vehicles and GPS navigation systems, modular acquisition devices and laser range-finders, high-frequency communication sets and combat free-fall parachutes, among other equipment, from countries like the US, Israel, France and Sweden.
@ Rahul or RayC or any other gyani log, how would the decision to choose these rifles have been made. Is there a similar sort of long term test carried out as seen for the big guns. M4A1 would be a decent choice but why not the G36 or HK416/417 or even the newer Russian AK107/108 series which comes in the standard NATO 5.56mm and has the balanced action, with dual, counter-moving gas pistons above the barrel supposed to vastly improve accuracy.


Small purchases are made upon specialized units' recommendations - ex. Vz.58s. Other "small" purchases are made based on emergency needs, and go for the best and quickest deals - ex. most of the AKMs bought from Romania, Bulgaria and East Germany. As I cannot see an emergency now, we would have to presume that M4A1 is based on somebody's recommendation. Frankly I am prejudiced against G36's integrated optics; 416 is better... but India doesn't have the best of relations with H&K, courtesy of their close relationship with the Paks, but business is business, so who knows? (India does buy MP5s, PSG, MSG). You can bet the Belgians will give it a good run for its money. The Russians have the upper-hand in terms of cost-advantage, and their products may really be more appropriate for India's operating conditions - but do their usage doctrine gel with Indian Army's?

Ideally both Indian Army and a couple of large CPMFs announce their RFQs simultaneously - one goes for a PSU-Foreign joint product, another goes for an indigenous private-foreign joint product. That is the only way to really generate competition and local growth. <rant>As long as OFB has a monopoly it will shove down anything it wants down the government's and the local gunowners' throats, or basically force them to buy foreign (if they can afford it).</rant>

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jul 2009 05:21

ssmitra wrote: @ Rahul or RayC or any other gyani log, how would the decision to choose these rifles have been made. Is there a similar sort of long term test carried out as seen for the big guns. M4A1 would be a decent choice but why not the G36 or HK416/417 or even the newer Russian AK107/108 series which comes in the standard NATO 5.56mm and has the balanced action, with dual, counter-moving gas pistons above the barrel supposed to vastly improve accuracy.

ssmitra sahab, I have no gyaan to impart on this. :)
but I'm sure people like pargha and others will more than make up for it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 21 Jul 2009 05:21

Nikhil T wrote:
The biggest of the three deals to be inked is the project to buy 43,318 `close-quarter battle' (CQB) carbines off-the-shelf from abroad for around Rs 4,400 crore, which is to be followed by the indigenous manufacture of another 1,16,764 similar guns under transfer of technology.
1,16,764 + 43,618 carbines for 4400 crores comes out to be an astounding INR 2.75 Lakh per carbine. What are we buying ?? Even M16 carbine comes for about $1200 or 60,000 INR.


Something is seriously wrong with these numbers - I noticed it with the previous Tavor purchase at unit price around $3,000 too! BTW FN sells M16A2s to the US government at unit price well below $1,000. Either you are buying something special that is not on the bill of receipt (hopefully); or Tavors take a LOT of lubrication (fact of life).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jul 2009 05:46

panday ji, there are military forums and there are military forums on the net. among them BR has maintained a certain standard, primarily because the members themselves have taken the pains to research the topics and commit time to make quality posts.

You are not a newbie, I'm sure you are aware that posters are requested to at least do some basic googling before asking questions, let alone making a point.
if you did that the first thing you will have known is that INSAS incorporates features from a number of guns, (including the german H&K G3) but is widely different from all of them to be called a copy.

babbupandey wrote:Dear Rahul,
......I have noticed this for a long time all across BR forums that you are belligerent whenever you want to reply to or be critical of anybody's post - except of course the forum God's. Is it because you have a tag of 'Forum Moderator' right below your name?
A little decency is all I ask for - as is famously written behind the trucks 'tameez se bolo, izzat muft milegi' :D

-babbupandey

being a mod has of course little to do with it. the same function used to be done by the original BR gurus, almost none of them were mods. since now they are conspicuous by absence, a mod is doing it. hopefully one day you will say the same to errant newbies and lessen our workload ! :D

----------------------------------
now, fact is I'm rarely critical of anybody's post, I always prefer a discussion to an argument !
:wink:
only a handful of my three thousand odd posts are of that category.
unless of course, those that I'm critical to.
these posts (and not posters) almost invariably show a lack of appreciation of the issues involved coupled with unjustified arrogance, the combination is simply not acceptable on BR.

please understand, it's nothing personal. BR members have the obligation to make informed comments (if they do). after all nobody is forcing them to post on BR. :)

last but not the least, yes I realise I should have been less harsh with that post.
therefore : LINK
cheers !

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sandipan » 21 Jul 2009 08:09

It seems a skirmish going on this thread. Sorry! couldnt resist taking a dig at people. Anyway, Rahul M - What I meant that from the article it seems, Armed forces have given up on OFB and INSAS family because INSAS is not only the assault rifle but a family of weapons including Carbine. So, armed forces seems to have said "enough is enough" lets go abroad and buy some foreign goodies. And if what the article says is true INSAS days are numbered, becasue we are talking about lacs of new weapons

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Jul 2009 08:30

@ Rahul or RayC or any other gyani log, how would the decision to choose these rifles have been made. Is there a similar sort of long term test carried out as seen for the big guns.


If it is an immediate and urgent requirement, it will have to be bought off the shelf.

The different rifles competing for the tender will undergo Users Trial in all climates and terrain configurations by independent teams.

The Users Trial is based on a Trial Questionnaire and in that Trial, the DRDO, DGI and EME reps are incorporated.

Thereafter, or simultaneously, there is the Technical Trial conducted by the Technical personnel.

Based on the results a comparitive analysis is done and the recommendation is sent to the MOD.

The Price Negotiating Committee of the Govt then takes over and goes through the process of procurement.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jul 2009 08:32

nah brother ta noye.

INSAS carbine always had a chequered history but INSAS assault rifle is a success and going to serve IA for at least another decade if not more.

a military like ours has need of both carbines and ARs, buying one does not mean it is giving up on the other. do look at the numbers, even after all the license production and completion of all three projects, it is envisaged to induct less than 4 lakh guns. considering IA's size (which will probably increase with the new mtn divisions) and reserves etc, this will be around 20-25% of IA's total small arms requirements. and then, these projects will be completed only by the second half of 2010's at the earliest.

conclusion : INSAS is not being replaced by this project, not by a long shot.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Jul 2009 09:01

There is nothing wrong with the INSAS to make it obsolescent.

It is after much research and trials for over many years, that the INSAS rifle was made.


Details:

The INSAS rifle is broadly based on the famous Kalashnikov AK-47 action, but with many modifications. The basic gas-operated action (long stroke gas system, rotating bolt, and stamped steel receiver) is of the Kalashnikov pattern. However, the gas system is fitted with a manual gas regulator similar in design to that found on FN FAL rifles as well as a gas cutoff. The charging handle is positioned on the left side of the forearm; it is similar in position and design to German HK G3 rifle.

The selector/safety switch is located at the left side of the receiver above the pistol grip allowing for single shots and three-round bursts. The rifle is fitted with a side-folding carrying handle, and either a solid or side-folding metal buttstock. Furniture is made of polymer. Standard magazines are made from semi-translucent polymer and contain 20 rounds. Longer 30-round magazines of similar design are available for the INSAS LMG but can also be used in the rifle. The sights consist of a hooded front, mounted on top of the gas block, and a diopter rear, mounted on the receiver cover. The flash suppressor is shaped to accept NATO-standard rifle grenades. INSAS rifles can be fitted with AKM-style multipurpose knife-bayonets.

In the assault rifle version, it has semi-auto and 3-round burst modes much like the US M16A2. Derived from the INSAS weapon systems, the INSAS Excalibur Mark-I is ergonomically designed with a folding butt and can fire 20 and 30-round magazines. It is also fitted with a Picatinny rail for mounting of opto-electronic devices. The INSAS Excalibur variant, to be used by the Special forces, has Semi-automatic and full automatic fire modes.

Under-barrel grenade launchers and bayonets have been developed for the INSAS Rifle, which are also compatible with the AK-47s used by paramilitary forces.

All the problems that were noticed in the INSAS has been rectified.


The Para version, I believe, not quite up to the requirement.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sandipan » 21 Jul 2009 09:03

From the process suggested by RayC, it seems a 5-year plan, by that time weapon selected might become obsolete. Who knows? Rahul M - agreed maybe INSAS AR may stay for a decade more but rest of the INSAS family might get replaced. Anyway apart from INSAS AR, INSAS carbine is used in limited number, rest all like Excalibur, Kalantak etc. seems to stay in prototype stage only.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Jul 2009 09:32

The Modernisation Plan is based on multiple inputs from various connected Directorates at AHQ. It is an ongoing process.

One has to visualise the operational scenario 20 years hence and then plan what is to be procured or manufactured indigenously.

The DRDO is incoroporated and the organisation puts itself into action. It maybe added, it takes a minimum of 10 years for a major equipment to be designed and ready for trials. That is why one has to visualise the op environment 20 years hence.

It maybe added that there is constant upgrading also done to keep the equipment in consonance with the modern technology and operational requirement.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 21 Jul 2009 12:00

Do Insas Assault rifle have picattiny rail or any other rail systems on them?also till date I haven't seen any Insas assault rifle with an under barrel greanade launcher in field(Not talking about brochures or expositions but what I have seen on soldiers and paramilitary forces).Guys please enlighten me.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Jul 2009 12:45

You have to visit the forward areas to see the UBGL.

There has not been enough production to kit the whole IA.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Srivastav » 21 Jul 2009 12:58

ive seen pics of INSAS with picatinny rails. ill try and find one for you.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby atreya » 21 Jul 2009 18:24

The Excalibur variant was supposed to be equipped with picatinny rails

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 21 Jul 2009 18:53

The report of times of india shows continued obssession of Indian forces with foreign maal. INSAS is mid seventies design concept and now its production run is over. Instead of working with DRDO for better or new rifle the Brass is surreptiously trying to import the new rifle under nomenclature of carbine. Note M4 carbine is replacing all rifles in US Army which shows the direction Indian army might take. The huge knowledge base developed by DRDO and OFB through INSAS will be destroyed with foreign maal obssessed indian army.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Jul 2009 20:16

Correct me if I am wrong.

The Rifles are for the Parachute Bns.

The INSAS Rifles for parachute battalions are acceptable by them?

The current carbines 'cook off' and if they fall by mistake, they are activated! So, should we not go in for something that does not 'cook off' are take off in a frenzy if dropped by error?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Avinash R » 21 Jul 2009 20:36

Guys it's the usual hyperbole laden Rajat Pandit article.
Dont take it seriously.
As usual full of exaggeration and his own thoughts on the F-INSAS program instead of some defense official or research scientist that he quotes.


And check the "specialised items" that he keeps mentioning year after year that the army allegedly wants to procure.
It is an 3 year old statement that he rehashes in his new article.
And it's always "40 specialised items for special forces", not one less or more. :D

Infantry, special forces to get new-generation carbines and rifles
Rajat Pandit, TNN 20 July 2009, 01:13am IST
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS ... 795865.cms
....
Army, however, says the 40 specialised items earmarked for special forces are now being fast-tracked. These include weaponry like TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles and M4A1 carbines, all-terrain multi-utility vehicles and GPS navigation systems, modular acquisition devices and laser range-finders, high-frequency communication sets and combat free-fall parachutes, among other equipment, from countries like the US, Israel, France and Sweden.


Arms majors vie for Indian pie
Rajat Pandit, TNN 29 January 2006, 10:08pm IST
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... page-1.cms
...
Of the Rs 2,000-crore modernisation package for the Army in 2005-06, Rs 400 crore have been earmarked for the Special Forces. "We have identified 40 items — 20 of them will be sourced from the US — for the modernisation of our Special Forces. In the next one-two years, they should be fully equipped," says Army chief General JJ Singh.
...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 21 Jul 2009 21:48

Raj Malhotra wrote:The report of times of india shows continued obssession of Indian forces with foreign maal. INSAS is mid seventies design concept and now its production run is over. Instead of working with DRDO for better or new rifle the Brass is surreptiously trying to import the new rifle under nomenclature of carbine. Note M4 carbine is replacing all rifles in US Army which shows the direction Indian army might take. The huge knowledge base developed by DRDO and OFB through INSAS will be destroyed with foreign maal obssessed indian army.



You are right.The armed forces should look for an indigenous replacement.

But the problem in India is that indigenous means products developed and manufactured by DRDO/OFB/Defense PSUs.Now I understand that for strategic programs like Missile development and nuclear submarine agencies like DRDO are required.But now they want to produce stuff like assault rifles and Battle fatigues as well.

It would be much better if this stuff was produced by private enterprises in terms of efficiency,innovation and product quality.Infact from the discussion I had on this thread I came to know that under barrel grenade launchers are still not produced in large enough quantity.Similarly hardly any of these rifles have picatinny or any other rail system.Forget about suppressors and advanced optics.Such is the OFB sloth and inflexibility after a decade of producing INSAS rifles they haven't been able to fix these issues.Please note I am not denigrating the rifle itself.The rifle might be a fine weapon but increasingly it's effectiveness is dependent on the accessories that come with it.And I don't see OFB/Defence PSUs as being able to address these issues.They simply don't have the work culture.

But still they get all the contracts.Even if a foreign carbine is selected it is they who will get to license produce those weapons.In fact if today I was to set up a factory for firearms in India I still wouldn't get the contract(provided I had a better weapon) and OFB would rule.Am I not indigenous enough?

I will tell you the answer.It is not about being indigenous but it's about keeping the OFB employees employed.This whole charade of firearms procurement through OFB is not patriotism but a Jobs program.Unfortunately the soldier suffers.

So that's why Army prefers the foreign maal.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ssmitra » 21 Jul 2009 22:24

Raj Malhotra wrote:The report of times of india shows continued obssession of Indian forces with foreign maal. INSAS is mid seventies design concept and now its production run is over. Instead of working with DRDO for better or new rifle the Brass is surreptiously trying to import the new rifle under nomenclature of carbine. Note M4 carbine is replacing all rifles in US Army which shows the direction Indian army might take. The huge knowledge base developed by DRDO and OFB through INSAS will be destroyed with foreign maal obssessed indian army.


Does it matter if its INSAS or M4 as long its the best possible weapon (cost/reliability)
on a different note, I had posted the way back in 2007

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1 ... 68,00.html
M4 Carbine Fares Poorly in Dust Test
After firing 6,000 rounds through ten M4s in a dust chamber at the Army's Aberdeen test center in Maryland this fall, the weapons experienced a total of 863 minor stoppages and 19 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem. Stacked up against the M4 during the side-by-side tests were two other weapons popular with special operations forces, including the Heckler and Koch 416 and the FN USA Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle, or Mk16.

Another carbine involved in the tests that had been rejected by the Army two years ago, the H&K XM8, came out the winner, with a total of 116 minor stoppages and 11 major ones. The Mk16 experienced a total of 226 stoppages, the 416 had 233.

The Army was quick to point out that even with 863 minor stoppages -- termed "class one" stoppages which require 10 seconds or less to clear and "class two" stoppages which require more than ten seconds to clear -- the M4 functioned well, with over 98 percent of the 60,000 total rounds firing without a problem.


Does anyone know what the stoppage of INSAS rifles is and if this kind of test has been done?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jul 2009 22:30

darshan, perhaps the pvt cos will be given appropriate licences if that hasn't been done already and may they rub OFBs incompetent face in the mud.

OFB is a disgrace. disinvestment is the best thing that can happen to most of their factories.


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