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Pranav wrote:
The video should not capture the mark voters put on the ballot paper. Voters should fold ballot before dropping it in.
Video helps create a record of what happened in the polling both.
Video and still photography is admissible evidence if accompanied by the testimony of the person who set up and watched over the camera.
In an age where as per you Chawla takes orders from Rajmata, all EC is staffed by corrupt card carrying members of Congress, why do you think one should trust the videographers and what they shoot?
Pranav, in all honesty, this is tangential to the discussion.
Pranav wrote:
The video should not capture the mark voters put on the ballot paper. Voters should fold ballot before dropping it in.
Video helps create a record of what happened in the polling both.
Video and still photography is admissible evidence if accompanied by the testimony of the person who set up and watched over the camera.
How does a video help then? What are you clarifying? That a vote has been cast? Even with EVM there are ballot slips and signatures and id card numbers.
Video is still not permissible evidence even with videographer except in certain cases where there is a judicial officer present.
Tanaji wrote:
In an age where as per you Chawla takes orders from Rajmata, all EC is staffed by corrupt card carrying members of Congress, why do you think one should trust the videographers and what they shoot?
Pranav, in all honesty, this is tangential to the discussion.
The goal is to make industrial scale rigging difficult. There could be one booth where the polling staff, the agents of candidates, and the security personnel are all complicit. But very difficult to make that happen on a large scale. Especially since each candidate selects his own agents and and the candidates are opposed to each other.
In an age where as per you Chawla takes orders from Rajmata
Do you have any idea who is Chawla and his background since the Emergency and awards that he has recieved from the Italian government?
Some people are just blind to the obvious but masters of the profound.
Chawla is totally a handmaid of the congress. It still does not change anything.
When rigging was much easier with paper ballots, and Chawla's ilk were too numerous in GoI to count and for Chawla to be noticeable even -- actually rigging the elections was still very difficult.
Dileep wrote:
Then there is no need for a demo. We all know that it can be done.
Shall I do a demo on how paper ballot can be rigged, in the similar fashion?
Good, thanks for the admission. IMHO, video recorded voting with paper trails is more secure than EVMs. I say EVMs alone are too insecure, and you may say the opposite thing.
I'd be fine with using both methods. Ideally the EVM itself should produce the trails, but if that is not possible then both methods could be used side by side.
See folks, from the "absolute truth", it came down to a "honest opinion". I am waiting for the progression further down.
Tanaji wrote:
In an age where as per you Chawla takes orders from Rajmata, all EC is staffed by corrupt card carrying members of Congress, why do you think one should trust the videographers and what they shoot?
Pranav, in all honesty, this is tangential to the discussion.
The goal is to make industrial scale rigging difficult. There could be one booth where the polling staff, the agents of candidates, and the security personnel are all complicit. But very difficult to make that happen on a large scale. Especially since each candidate selects his own agents and and the candidates are opposed to each other.
There are much easier and cheaper ways to make it difficult. A lot of them are already under operation.
Pranav wrote:
The goal is to make industrial scale rigging difficult. There could be one booth where the polling staff, the agents of candidates, and the security personnel are all complicit. But very difficult to make that happen on a large scale. Especially since each candidate selects his own agents and and the candidates are opposed to each other.
Pranav, why don't you take your "CIA modified the chips" story to the public media? Like that Kailash Whatzisname, or that Nomthondam guy? It benefits everyone. You throw a reverse swing to the EC, who is now laughing at the incompetence of the current antagonists. You get your face on TV. You help your party in its agenda.
And on top of all, we get the good laugh we deserve.
In an age where as per you Chawla takes orders from Rajmata
Do you have any idea who is Chawla and his background since the Emergency and awards that he has recieved from the Italian government?
Some people are just blind to the obvious but masters of the profound.
#
Sanjayji, I have read about Chawla. FWIW, I don't think he should be the CEC.
However, it is a big leap of faith to go from that to saying EVMs are subverted. Just because you are a confirmed criminal does not make you automatically guilty of any crime committed in your area.
Dileep wrote:
Pranav, why don't you take your "CIA modified the chips" story to the public media? Like that Kailash Whatzisname, or that Nomthondam guy? It benefits everyone. You throw a reverse swing to the EC, who is now laughing at the incompetence of the current antagonists. You get your face on TV. You help your party in its agenda.
And on top of all, we get the good laugh we deserve.
Don't misquote me. You are the guy who keeps talking about the CIA. I don't think I have used that acronym on this thread prior to this.
It is the same story again. When I said last year that Maoists are nothing but a Christian militia supported by the Goras and the church, I was heckled here: "Show us the proof! Show us the proof! Show us the video recordings! Show us the money trail!"
No proof was actually required to reach this conclusion. I only observed (i) the nationality of the people caught in the Purulia arms drop (Latvians and an ex-MI6 officer), (ii) recognized the fact that the areas where the missionaries are operating and where the naxals are operating make for an exact match, (iii) realized that the missionaries in the jungles are recieving Rs 12,000 crores a year from the West, which must be the financial lifeline of the Maoists (iv) understood that the role of missionaries and church workers can provide a convenient cover for CIA and MI6 operatives to be present in the naxal areas and (v) noticed that the Maoists kill RSS workers and Hindu social workers, but leave the missionaries untouched -- these observations were sufficient for me to reach a conclusion. There was no need for "show us the proof! show us the proof!"
The same thing is now happening with EVM fraud. Asking for proof from ordinary posters on a public forum is absurd. One can only observe certain patterns, smell a rat, work backward from there and reach a logical conclusion using one's own intution. After this, one can actually start an enquiry and look for proof. Proof follows intution, not the other way round, otherwise how will you decide which issues to investigate?
People who actually have to first have incontrovertible proof in their hands to initiate their thought process are not going to get far in this world.
Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 20 Jul 2009 15:50, edited 4 times in total.
Like Rahul Mehta suggested CIA or any external organization tampering with EVMs at the chip foundry itself. Or CIA replaced EVMs at the EC warehouse in understanding with Navin Chawla, why not this scenario. Already the chips have been tampered since 2007 itself and the Americans have offered the UPA a key to break the lock to winning elections in India perpetually on back of this loophole and offered to them the 'key' to manipulate EVMs in their favor as one of the carrots provided to UPA on nuclear issue.
So the ways in EVM can be manipulated and compromised is limited only to imagination.
If EVM fabs were located in India and were supervised by a bipartisan EC panel and supervised by the multiparty committee, nobody could have cast any aspersions towards these EVMs.
Raju,
It has not been proven yet that there was a hardware change in 2007 or 2009. It has been shown in the past pages why it is extremely difficult to do massive hardware swaps either in the field or the warehouse due to the complexities involved. You have alleged a lot of things, but none of them have yet even stood the test of a thought experiment, leave alone actual proof.
As far as EVM fabs go, you say the EC is corrupt. Even if EC starts using BEL to make the chips, by the same logic any entity that corrupts a foreign fab manufacturer can easily corrupt BEL as well. So why the argument?
Dileep wrote:
Pranav, why don't you take your "CIA modified the chips" story to the public media? Like that Kailash Whatzisname, or that Nomthondam guy? It benefits everyone. You throw a reverse swing to the EC, who is now laughing at the incompetence of the current antagonists. You get your face on TV. You help your party in its agenda.
And on top of all, we get the good laugh we deserve.
Don't misquote me. You are the guy who keeps talking about the CIA. I don't think I have used that acronym on this thread prior to this.
OK, then whichever entity you claim to have "modified the chips at the fab". Names and abbreviations don't matter, but it should be one that has the capability do that massive operation.
sanjaychoudhry wrote:It is the same story again. When I said last year that Maoists are nothing but a Christian militia supported by the Goras and the church, I was heckled here: "Show us the proof! Show us the proof! Show us the video recordings! Show us the money trail!"
The same thing is now happening with EVM fraud. Asking for proof from ordinary posters on a public forum is absurd. One can only observe certain patterns, smell a rat, work backward from there and reach a logical conclusion using one's own intution. After this, one can actually start an enquiry and look for proof. Proof follows intution, not the other way round, otherwise how will you decide which issues to investigate?
People who actually have to first have incontrovertible proof in their hands to initiate their thought process are not going to get far in this world.
Fair point.
I would submit to you that the patterns that you look for are credible. For example if you are investigating a financial fraud, you would see evidence of actual money having vanished, unexplained bank transfers etc. In other words, something concrete.
In case of EVMs, all we have is mutterings of CIA, past character of Chawla and allegations that a lot of people went and replaced the EVMs. Nothing concrete... I am not looking for proof that stands in a court of law, but it has to be something more definite then mutterings.
Sanjayji, you are not naive and given to wild conspiracies. IF there was a huge conspiracy, one that involved the CIA, the Congress, and a lot of people in the EC, the total of which would be at least a 100, don't you think there would be at least a bit more proof? People make mistakes, leave evidence.. no one is perfect, least of all the CIA.
Dileep wrote:
OK, then whichever entity you claim to have "modified the chips at the fab". Names and abbreviations don't matter, but it should be one that has the capability do that massive operation.
Yes, I did talk about modification at the fab. But, as I mentioned, the fab is in the picture only if audits are being allowed. In current scenario there is no need for any changes at the fab.
sanjaychoudhry wrote:
No proof was actually required to reach this conclusion. I only observed (i) the nationality of the people caught in the Purulia arms drop (Latvians and an ex-MI6 officer), (ii) recognized the fact that the areas where the missionaries are operating and where the naxals are operating make for an exact match, (iii) realized that the missionaries in the jungles are recieving Rs 12,000 crores a year from the West, which must be the financial lifeline of the Maoists (iv) understood that the role of missionaries and church workers can provide a convenient cover for CIA and MI6 operatives to be present in the naxal areas and (v) noticed that the Maoists kill RSS workers and Hindu social workers, but leave the missionaries untouched -- these observations were sufficient for me to reach a conclusion. There was no need for "show us the proof! show us the proof!"
From your own post, #1, #3, #5 are actual evidence, in other words something concrete. In the EVM case, there is nothing concrete at all. Just outlandish theories that have been demonstrably shown to be improbable to implement.
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Proof follows intution, not the other way round, otherwise how will you decide which issues to investigate?
People who actually have to first have incontrovertible proof in their hands to initiate their thought process are not going to get far in this world.
Forget proof what I am saying is that it the suggestion for centralized rigging is intuitively idiotic and if you throw in a pinch of science then practically impossible.
I still have not seen some one point out a clear set of how the rigging will be done in a centralized manner.
One fool proof proposal is all I want with clear number of people involved.
This is wink and nudge -- and as such it may end up as exactly Purulia allegations did, in the laughing stock. Even if Purulia was almost a clear cut operation.
I am the one who brought CIA into the picture. Because if anyone can rig EVMs by replacing EVMs or putting PROM with Trojan or putting microcode with Trojan, it is CIA and no one else. Indian leaders and their henchmen dont have technical competence to engineer such a scam. not they have logistic strength. And by CIA, I mean CIA = CIA + MNCs-CEO + Missionary-elite
Besides, CIA is now so deep into PMO, EC, Supreme Court and many PSUs that no large scam can happen without NoC from CIA. And CIA also owns ToI. So if anyone does a large scam without NoC from CIA, CIA will have ToI expose that scam in few days.
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So far, we anti-EVM people have proposed 3-4 theories how CIA (or someone powerful) rigged EVMs
1. Real EVMs were replaced by rigged EVMs that prefer row# X (X = congress candidate, different for different constituency) in CEC warehouse or Collector's warehouse. Replacement was done just 15 days before poll and so X for Congress candidate was known. And after counting was over rigged EVMs were replaced back by real EVMs, after pressing the required buttons on real EVMs so that counters are set to same as fake EVMs. It has been over 60 days after counting, and so CIA had enough time to replace the fake EVMs with real one. Since Chawala is CIA agent, all EVMs in CEC warehouse were changed. And if the EVMs were in District warehouses, then EVMs where DC is CIA agent were changed and others were real.
To hide the rigged EVMs, CIA would some space. This is possible as there are large parts of Naxal areas where policemen cant enter, and CIA rules the roost (Naxals are now CIA puppets). So CIA can store fake EVMs in Naxal areas, and bring 1000-2000 at a time in a truck and replace them. You will need no more than 100 field agents to replace some 200,000 EVMs over 15 days period.
Randomization at CEC warehouse level was not done. And so rigged EVMs were sent to Constituencies where fight was to be neck to neck.
2. Trojan is in ROM. Trojan is activated when someone pressed keys 28786X where X is key for Congress candidate. Now CIA had 1000 field agents in India. Each agent had fake voting card with which he entered the booth as voter and pressed 28786X. Each agent was given fake cards for 50 such booths and had artificial skin like thin sticker which took care of ink removal. So 1000*50 = 50000 booths were rigged in one day. Now polling was held over 5 days. Thus the 1000 field agents were able to activate trojan in 250,000 booths. Enough to raise Congress seats from 100 to 200. And trojan gives correct votes when started and charged the result only after 300 votes are pressed. So during mock poll, when only 50-100 votes polled at most, no one can detect the Trojan.
3. Trojan was in microcode of the chip made in Japan. i.e. CIA had Japanese company put a Trojan which when instructions come from code in PROM can guess the key pressed. This is do-able if micro-code writer has PROM code, and PROM code does not change later.
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Dileep,
Initially, you stand was that microcode with Trojan is impossible. Now correct me if you are wrong : you have changed your position to "possible, but chip will consume way more power and microcode will take large space etc and will become slow". Am I right?
The microcode is written as follow : the last 6 keycode in 6 FIFO registers. When first 5 registers are 28786 it takes sixth key as preferred key. Now comparison with "28786" is done in idle time. IOW, each CPU is idle 99% of the time. So microcode is doing password detection in idle time, the time to do regular task will not be impacted. As per space, it is non-issue - today's tech can put tons of code on chip. And peak power consumption will not increase much as comparison is done in "idle" time. The total power consumption may increase, but not by any conclusive amount that one would bother.
so Trojan in microcode is TECHNOLOGICALLY possible. And CIA has muscles to force Japanese companies to put the Trojan there. Did CIA let the opportunity go? If yes, why? Because CIA does not want to ruin Indian democracy?
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The Trojan in microcode is possible, and CIA has muscles to add that Trojan. So it is anybody's guess whether CIA did put that Trojan or let the opportunity pass.
Last edited by Rahul Mehta on 20 Jul 2009 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
Why not just claim aliens did it? My claim is that Reptilians from the Zeta Reticuli system did the rigging since they were enamored with P Chidambaram's macho looks. The rigging is their dowry to him.
Actually if you want to convince somebody that EVM rigging is an idea which firmly belongs in domain to total hallucination you only need introduce them to RM. Otherwise there are chances that they may actually wonder.
RM is the NBJPRE instrument to actually destroy all thoughts of EVM rigging by taking the discussion to such levels that even a mildly intelligent person will retch.
Sanku wrote:Actually if you want to convince somebody that EVM rigging is an idea which firmly belongs in domain to total hallucination you only need introduce them to RM. Otherwise there are chances that they may actually wonder.
RM is the NBJPRE instrument to actually destroy all thoughts of EVM rigging by taking the discussion to such levels that even a mildly intelligent person will retch.
So capt Amrinder Singh who first pointed out to this abuse in 2001 belongs to the domain of RM. Please spare us this individual bashing and character assasinations of forum members for pointing out what they feel is suspiscious/inadequate.
There might be a reason why politicians are not going 'hammer and tongs' as some member suggested. The reason is they too have plenty of skeletons in their closet which can be raked up through CBI if necessary. So everyone maintains a distance from each other and does not expose other parties 'beyond a limit'.
For instance there is telecom minister A. Raja, does anyone on this forum doubt that he is not corrupt and has not accumulated funds for himself and his party through misappropriation and scams in various spectrum allocations etc. But do you find any party going 'hammer and tongs' against him or his party. Ofcourse there is that odd protest or two but that's about it. In politics there is only one philosophy of 'you scratch my back and I scratch yours'. Beyond that they cannot be depended upon to upkeep the morality of any process.
Raju I know that some politicions are also kooks, I dont if the Captain Amarinder Singh belongs to their club
However if I see him spouting stuff like
Besides, CIA is now so deep into PMO, EC, Supreme Court and many PSUs that no large scam can happen without NoC from CIA. And CIA also owns ToI. So if anyone does a large scam without NoC from CIA, CIA will have ToI expose that scam in few days.
it will be the kind of proof of kookiness I am looking for.
Sanku wrote:Raju I know that some politicions are also kooks, I dont if the Captain Amarinder Singh belongs to their club
However if I see him spouting stuff like
Besides, CIA is now so deep into PMO, EC, Supreme Court and many PSUs that no large scam can happen without NoC from CIA. And CIA also owns ToI. So if anyone does a large scam without NoC from CIA, CIA will have ToI expose that scam in few days.
it will be the kind of proof of kookiness I am looking for.
And daily pioneer and many other papers are going after Raja hammer and tongs. Most prob a lot of his activities are going to be curtailed as well.
It is just a parody. Indira Gandhi used to say 'foreign hand' and aam janta took it as CIA hand. I will not speak for RM but what he probably means by CIA is just a foreign hand or influence in India's domestic process.
It is like politicsparty parody style of narrative.
As for A. Raja, he can never be curtailed because he steals on behalf of his party and all parties need DMK and AIADMK to form coalition at centre. He will never be punished like most of our politicians.
Pranav wrote:
If they are willing to provide an unprogrammed machine so that the demo software can be burned in that is good. But from the article it seems that they will only give a machine that has already been programmed. Also they are not willing to provide the software it seems.
What does that going to prove? That the controller can execute a software? What kind of an argument is this Pranav? We all know that if you load a software on the controller, it can do whatever you program it to.
We discussed to death on the possibilities of sneaking the malicious code in. That didn't include getting a blank EVM, or even giving the software. And if you don't remember, each and every one of those scenarios were proven to be unviable.
Personally, I would be prepared to give a programmed EVM, and the source code of the software, and challenge that you won't be able to do diddly squat to the EVM. IF you think you can, tell me how.
Pranav,
Just do the following: buy a caculator from a shop. Do 1+1 and it will give 2 as answer. Try to hack it and make 1+1=5. Bring all the experts you have. If you are able to do it then put the process of how you did it on this thread.
There might be a reason why politicians are not going 'hammer and tongs' as some member suggested. The reason is they too have plenty of skeletons in their closet which can be raked up through CBI if necessary. So everyone maintains a distance from each other and does not expose other parties 'beyond a limit'.
.........
As you yourself say, "beyond a limit". Gaming the entire election so that the opposition has virtually no chance of winning and results in a massive loss of thousands of crores that a political party spends to contest definitely qualifies as a limit.
Earning a few tens of crores here and there is probably ignored by all parties, gaming an entire election to lock the opposition out will surely not be ignored.
Dileep wrote:Shall I do a demo on how paper ballot can be rigged, in the similar fashion?
Pointless. You can rig paper ballots, but you would need 2-5 criminals per booth, and so even if you Congress Supremo, you have only 2000-5000 criminals and so you can rig only 1000 booths. If you can show me how 200,000 booths with paper ballots can be rigged with 1000 field agents and Rs 500 cr or even Rs 5000 cr, you have point. Otherwise, there is no point.
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I'd be fine with using both methods. Ideally the EVM itself should produce the trails, but if that is not possible then both methods could be used side by side.
Dear Trail Lovers,
Ballot is best, and dump this paper trail idea. Once EVM counting ends, one candidate will always scream murder and then you will count papers. So in out 543 Constituencies, in over 540 you will do paper counting. So you wasted money in EVM, EVM with printer and then spent time in counting papers. Remember the saying "sau jute bhi khaaye or sau pyaj bhi khaaye"?
What is this fascination with EVMs? Electronics is useful when you do something 1000 times day eg number crunching. But if something is being done only 2-4 times in 5 years, electronics is a hard and expensive way of solving easy problem. eg you would write program if you have to solve 1000 2*2 equations. But if you have to solve just 1 2*2 equation, you would do yourself with calculator. Likewise, automation helps where frequency is high.
What is this fascination with EVMs? Electronics is useful when you do something 1000 times day eg number crunching. But if something is being done only 2-4 times in 5 years, electronics is a hard and expensive way of solving easy problem. eg you would write program if you have to solve 1000 2*2 equations.
Voting by 70 crore people is a perfect example of something that is repetitive and requires number crunching (counting in this case), both items which computers excel at.
Of course Rahul Mehta won't say that.... NBJPRIE agents will always MISLEAD the COMMONS to further their agenda!
Pranav wrote:
Yes, I did talk about modification at the fab. But, as I mentioned, the fab is in the picture only if audits are being allowed. In current scenario there is no need for any changes at the fab.
What is the current scenario? Someone replacing the executable binary at BEL?
Rahul Mehta wrote:
Initially, you stand was that microcode with Trojan is impossible. Now correct me if you are wrong : you have changed your position to "possible, but chip will consume way more power and microcode will take large space etc and will become slow". Am I right?
I still maintain it is impossible to do it in "microcode" in the traditional sense. But of course you can add extra hardware and its microcode, which is the same as "adding another core". This will add to the chip area and power consumption.
The microcode is written as follow : the last 6 keycode in 6 FIFO registers. When first 5 registers are 28786 it takes sixth key as preferred key. Now comparison with "28786" is done in idle time. IOW, each CPU is idle 99% of the time.
Not in an embedded microcontroller. The CPU is executing all the time, reading the IO lines. The concept of "Idle CPU" is valid only in big processors like the ones used in PCs, or in big network equipment, that provide threadinbg support natively.
So microcode is doing password detection in idle time, the time to do regular task will not be impacted. As per space, it is non-issue - today's tech can put tons of code on chip. And peak power consumption will not increase much as comparison is done in "idle" time. The total power consumption may increase, but not by any conclusive amount that one would bother.
We are not talking about a pentium class processor here. If you add a small/simple execution core to a pentium, that will not show up on the power drain, and you will have to look at the masks to see that it is different from the original.
We are talking about a small controller, where your trojan execution unit would be comparable in size as the regular execution unit, which is a significant percentage of the chip area and power drain.
Rahul Mehta wrote:
Pointless. You can rig paper ballots, but you would need 2-5 criminals per booth, and so even if you Congress Supremo, you have only 2000-5000 criminals and so you can rig only 1000 booths. If you can show me how 200,000 booths with paper ballots can be rigged with 1000 field agents and Rs 500 cr or even Rs 5000 cr, you have point. Otherwise, there is no point.
I told you many times that I am NOT claiming a CIA job. You are the one obsessed with the almighty CIA. I am not. In fact I consider that idea stupid.
I want my vote to be protected against the rigging by the local thug politician. And HE does it by paper rigging. I am going to do a demo that paper ballot can be rigged.
Find it ridiculous? The notion that you can rig an unprogrammed EVM is more ridiculous. Everyone here KNOWS that you can load ANY program on it. I can even load a program that displays "RAHUL MEHTA IS THE WINNER". That doesn't prove anything. Just like me showing that you can rig paper ballots doesn't prove anything.
Tanaji wrote:
I am sure you are aware of the above, yet the very fact that you choose to ignore it is proof of the fact that you [= RM] are truly one of the NBJPRIE. You hate EVMs because like a Neta that you are, have understood that EVMs are difficult to hack, so your game is up. You hate EVMs because like a babu you have understood that it is now difficult to engage in typical sloth and hiring of cronies in cushy positions, so your game is up. .
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Tanaji,
When I gave cost estimate of Re 1 per paper, it was TWICE the paper + printing. So overheads were counted.
There are no counting overheads. These days, printers do the task so accurately that in 960 copies of pamphlets I ordered, it was only 7 short (the rims had 480 sheets). The printers can even put serial number on ballots, and IIRC, ballost did have serial number in 1996 when I can counting agent. I dont recall with 100% surity now.
And ballots dont take more space. I have see the suitcase with CU and EVM. If there are say 10 candidates. a box of same volume can hold 1000 ballots. And EVMs have to be moved, lifed and carried with care and so you need more persons to carry them. Ballot bundles are not fragile and so dont need any care. And EVMs needs to be stored and so there is cost/space involved. So cost of shipping paper ballots is LESS than cost of shipping ballot papers.
When I gave cost estimate of Re 1 per paper, it was TWICE the paper + printing. So overheads were counted.
Ok, so in your world that defies space and time laws, 2x cost will take care of overheads eh? By your own estimates, its Rs. 1 per ballot. A polling booth will take 500 people , again using your own numbers, total cost of polling people at that booth is R.s 500. Since you claimed that 2x includes all overheads it means it includes
Cost of sending the three men on site
Cost of pay for these three men
Cost of living for 3 men
It also includes the cost of additional men required to do counting in case of paper ballots.
Wow.
How many times have we to prove that you use numbers that mislead? Your deliberate attempts at this only proves that you are doing this at the behest of some NBJPRIE that is upset that he cannot game the EVMs any more.
Last edited by Tanaji on 20 Jul 2009 18:14, edited 2 times in total.
