India-US News and Discussion

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jul 2009 22:08

Avram,

Interesting take.

My impression was that she actually absorbed quite a bit while in India.

With Obama inclined to let his administration lead the way it will appear as though he has a side game - which he does, but I am not too sure that the game being played is that starkly stacked against Mrs. Clinton. Besides, even if she was still in the Senate would she have run in 2012? I doubt it.

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Jul 2009 22:08

Anujan wrote: It might very well be the rule of the land. But was a protocol established ? Is there a mechanism whereby all airlines were informed of this law, a communication channel established to convey, beyond doubt, the identity of the traveler ?

Or did some babu simply show up at the counter and tell the person there that Kalam-ji is traveling and so he should not be frisked ?

How stupid would we feel if some talibunny dressed up like Kalam-ji hijacks the next flight out of dilli ?

For your kind information he was travelling with a protocol officer, CISF airport in charge and other assorted officers who are well known to the staff at the airlines. Its just a show of arrogance and we need to drill some sense into these guys by a good round of Danda-Pani by choicest Jaat hawildars of Delhi Police. Former Prez of India is always accorded a big protocol posse and this TSA punk was simply being uppity and racist. The Airlines and the guys both need some hard talk to understand that while some Green Carders and ABCDs are in awe of them the rest of us are not.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Jul 2009 22:15

Acharya wrote:
arun wrote:The US seems to have latched on to the fact that that our current Congress led Government is very amenable to being ahem ………. Co-operative when prestige is thickly smothered on .
They have figured that flattery is very important to these elites to get the job done

I forsee a big disaster if MMS come for state visit to DC in NOV.Lets hope whole house is not sold to Massa.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Jul 2009 22:21

For secure areas, when in doubt, enforce the standard operating procedure.

Is Kalam frisked when he visits BARC or ISRO?
Surely the security protocol for access to the GSLV must be more stringent than that for a commercial airliner?

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 21 Jul 2009 23:03

Prem wrote: I forsee a big disaster if MMS come for state visit to DC in NOV.Lets hope whole house is not sold to Massa.

Why wait till Nov, every passing day is turning out to be a disaster, I doubt if anything else will be left to sell by the time the satrap gets to visit the czar.

RonyKJ · Post by **RonyKJ** » 21 Jul 2009 23:21

I am of the opinion that rules should apply to all and I think Dr Kalam would agree.
If Dr Kalam is not required to show his ID at any point, then this is a huge security hole.
It would be the easiest thing for someone to dress up as Dr Kalam and get access to the
most secure nuclear or missile facility in India. In fact, I think the security check for VVIP's should be
even tougher than that for others for this very reason.
And if Dr Kalam is given exception, where do we draw the line? How about Mr Dewe Gowda?

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Jul 2009 23:32

RonyKJ wrote:It would be the easiest thing for someone to dress up as Dr Kalam and get access to the
most secure nuclear or missile facility in India. In fact, I think the security check for VVIP's should be
even tougher than that for others for this very reason.
And if Dr Kalam is given exception, where do we draw the line? How about Mr Dewe Gowda?

They have something called SPG and protocol officers with the ex-Prez so that no mistaken identity is involved. An yes HD Devegowda is entitled all the privileges of an ex-PM. For those who want to talk about sooper dooper phoren protocols I only wish to say that the priviliges of our VIPs are mandated by law and no punk can go scot free by humiliating Dr Kalam on our soil.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Jul 2009 23:32

I suppose Kalam would have had his Z-class SPG escorts in tow. This just seems like overreach by the airline. I do admit I am partial to Kalam and wouldn't have cared as much if it was Vadra who got frisked.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 21 Jul 2009 23:49

It might very well be the rule of the land. But was a protocol established ? Is there a mechanism whereby all airlines were informed of this law, a communication channel established to convey, beyond doubt, the identity of the traveler ? Is there a separate entrance or a secure area for VVIPs ?

You are asking questions of a novice.

The moment somebody sets his foot on Indian territory, he ceases to be subjected to his home country's law and automatically becomes subjected to the Indian law. What their rules say back home is not India's problem. Their rules may say that they have to recieve the passengers standing naked. Will that be sufficient excuse for you to accept that behaviour?

If Western traders have to do business from Indian soil, the Indian law applies. (Continental Airline is merely a foreign trader doing business in India with the Indian president's permission.) For all foriegn tourists roaming in India, the Indian law applies. Same with foreign businessmen. This basic principle should be clear to you. The moment you set foot in any country's soil, the law of that country applies to you.

Really, some Indians are experts at slapping their own selves by giving absurd agruments.

What the government should have done was to get this Continental racist red-neck out of our country and banish the airline from India citing its inability to do business in conformity with the Indian law. One has to be asssertive in these matters and not make demeaning excuses to justify one's own humiliation.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 22 Jul 2009 00:00

It might very well be the rule of the land. But was a protocol established ? Is there a mechanism whereby all airlines were informed of this law, a communication channel established to convey, beyond doubt, the identity of the traveler ? Is there a separate entrance or a secure area for VVIPs ?

Yes, another point. Ignorance of law cannot be used as an excuse for breaking the law.

The onus of learning the laws of India and then following rests squarely on them and them alone.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2009 00:06

In 1993, PVNR's guard was frisked and for a short time arrested while leaving the US after the State visit. The SD claimed lack of communications but the message was to tell Rao Garu his status in their perception. So when diplomatic breaches occur in an undiplomatic fashion there is a message.

Kalamsaab is always defacto persona non grata due to his association with the IGMD program. And its gullibility to think all is forgiven after he became Head of State.

Its all about aukaad dekhlana.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 22 Jul 2009 00:41

All those who see no harm/foul in India signing on to the EUM agreement, please indulge me in a simple Shivsaar type piskology exercise.

Lets assume you desire to buy Victoria's Secret(VS) products for your significant other. VS store policy states that they need to periodically inspect the products after the sale by either visiting your bedroom, laundry basket or the clothes line or any part of your home. As a compromise they may agree to periodically conducting the inspection at their store or some other place of mutual agreement. Their intent of this check is ensure that you have not tried to decode Victoria's Secret and that it is still a secret to you and all your friends. They claim that this check is to protect their brand as they do not want another store making a quick buck by selling imitation Victolia's Seclets. Given these conditions would still buy VS products for your loved one?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 22 Jul 2009 00:50

ramana wrote:In 1993, PVNR's guard was frisked and for a short time arrested while leaving the US after the State visit. The SD claimed lack of communications but the message was to tell Rao Garu his status in their perception. So when diplomatic breaches occur in an undiplomatic fashion there is a message.

Kalamsaab is always defacto persona non grata due to his association with the IGMD program. And its gullibility to think all is forgiven after he became Head of State.

Its all about aukaad dekhlana.

Ramana sir, you could not have put it better. Even the age old Arthashastra asks high-officials who deal directly with Royalty to be aware of "unexpected innocent mistakes" by the royal courtiers (like spilling water/drink while serving, serving empty glass, being kept waiting for a SCHEDULED appointment). All these are considered EXPLICIT show of displeasure and there is nothing like an over smart low-level PUNK officer overstepping his/her mandate. It is sad to see explanations going around even in BR for this treatment of EX-PRESIDENT OF INDIA.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Jul 2009 00:54

Given these conditions would still buy VS products for your loved one?

It depends on whether you really want those VS products. If your marital relations are dependent on the VS products, you may very well agree to carry the things back to the store periodically. It is a choice for the buyer.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Jul 2009 01:25

Govt registers case against ‘unrepentant’ US airline

the Bureau of Civil Aviation Security — the country’s nodal agency on air security — booked the airline under Section 11A of the Aircraft Act. If found guilty, the staff concerned could be jailed for a maximum of six months or pay a fine of Rs 10 lakh.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Jul 2009 02:04

Regarding Obama and Hillary:
If Obama does not suffer any major defeat Hillary is not going to be an opponent in 2012. Obama is currently on the Health Care Reforms and is more focused with that and the economy than the Muslim World. Moreover USA or any other country on the planet has to deal with Muslim countries if their paths cross. Currently as things stand they will not be opponents in 2012. Something major has to happen to USA or Obama's poll number for things to be rocked.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 22 Jul 2009 02:19

Hillary Clinton's India Trip: Talk but Not Much Action - By MADHUR SINGH

...
"The U.S. is keen to emphasize India's responsibilities," says New Delhi–based strategic-affairs analyst Brahma Chellaney. "On NPT [non-proliferation treaty], on climate change, the attempt is to see what India can do. But the U.S.'s own policies in this regard have been high on rhetoric and low on action." Ever since India and the U.S. first decided to put aside Cold War–era mistrust and start taking baby steps toward a friendship powered by a shared distrust of China and a common commitment to democracy, skeptics have warned that mutual interests do not naturally coalesce.
...
...
The limits of mutual interests are also striking when it comes to dealing with other countries such as Iran - with whom India is planning a gas pipeline - and Burma, whom India has been supplying with aid and military hardware in return for access to its gas fields.

At the same time, while India hopes to be a global power, it has failed to articulate a strong position - let alone take a leadership role - even in its immediate neighborhood, whether on Sri Lanka or on Afghanistan, which has a direct bearing on Islamist terrorism in all of South Asia. "For this, India's foreign policy establishment needs to change," says Dipankar Banerjee, director of the Institute for Peace and Conflict Studies in New Delhi. "There are structural limitations, but that's changing. There is greater realization and willingness to discuss regional issues." Former diplomat Rajiv Sikri agrees: "We need a more activist agenda of our own. Next time, we should not merely react to what the U.S. puts on the table. We must be in a position to say, 'Look, we want to talk about this.' " The irony of the Indo-U.S. strategic partnership remains that while the U.S. may urge India to become a global power, neither country is ready for that to happen.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 22 Jul 2009 02:49

Indian-American lawmaker blasts NYT for anti-India editorial

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/India ... al/492140/

A powerful Indian-American lawmaker on Teusday blasted The New York Times for terming India as a "longtime nuclear scofflaw".
Kumar Barve, the Majority Leader in Maryland House of Delegates, said, "to me the most troubling aspect of the article was not to be found in the blatant and unprofessional factual errors or omissions. It was the tone. How haughty, how condescending, how arrogant and patronizing. How like the British Raj."

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Jul 2009 03:06

Touchy about frisking, not security risk

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 22 Jul 2009 03:12

So should airliners give an exemption to Nigerian Ministers? How about Libya? what about Iran? Maybe Pakistan? Burma? Half the Indian MPs are criminals from the CPI and Maost supporting lefties. No freaking way I would want to board a plane with any of these losers without being checked.

WTF!

I says, everyone should be scanned boarding a commercial jet. IF he is that important for Indians, then let him fly the Indian Air Force and you don;t have to frisk him for that. that is your prerogative.

Trying to tell a foreign carrier that they cannot scan someone is aweful! that too a county that did squat before and after Mumbai. We all got to see for 3 days, when the country was held hostage and the PM surrendered and admited to Pakistan that it was the guilty party in Baluchistan. Now the same country is all gungho about this. Shamless!

India, a soft state that is incapable of fighting terror outside or inside should be in no position to lecture another country or even an airliner on security matters.

Maybe this is "Shut up and learn from others" time for India!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 22 Jul 2009 03:33

A MODEST SUCCESS - India missed cashing in on the goodwill Hillary brought to it - KP Nayar

Hillary Clinton’s three-day visit to India will go down in the annals of Indo-US relations as a classic example of how the United Progressive Alliance government scored a self-goal: much like the ham-handed Indo-Pakistan summit in Egypt and the Group of Eight meeting in Italy.
...
...

Clinton’s immediate predecessor, Condoleezza Rice, told one thing in private to leaders in New Delhi and another in public. She used America’s relationship with India to advance her profile in the US and her personal standing in the White House, where she had been exposed as having no grip on anything except the Soviet Union, which had ceased to exist by the time she was ready to take up big jobs in Washington.

...

For a change, Nayar's article is just empty rhetoric. He doesn't mention why India missed cashing in on the goodwill. He even backs it up by quoting the NY times editorial and Talbott's article calling on India to join US In FMCT, environment caps etc. Nayar used to bring good inside info to the table. Why is he crying over something that wasn't in India's interest anyways?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 22 Jul 2009 06:31

Defence pact: India prevails over US

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 22 Jul 2009 06:46

VinodTK wrote:Defence pact: India prevails over US

I was expecting some lifafa article in praise of End verification agreement and show it as a 'victory' for India to hide the blatant sell out .And there it is.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 22 Jul 2009 09:36

Manny wrote:So should airliners give an exemption to Nigerian Ministers? How about Libya? what about Iran? Maybe Pakistan? Burma? Half the Indian MPs are criminals from the CPI and Maost supporting lefties. No freaking way I would want to board a plane with any of these losers without being checked.

Complete strawman because India's VIP list does not include any of these characters.

Trying to tell a foreign carrier that they cannot scan someone is aweful!

Why is it awful exactly? Does the FDA not tell foreign companies how to run their business when it comes to sales in the US? As with dealing with the FDA, the airline can always choose not to operate in India if it disagrees.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 22 Jul 2009 09:41

What is this frisking business. I thought the frisking is done by CISF while you are trying to get in after Immigration clearance. How come Airlines was involved in Frisking ?
As long as there is law of the land about not frisking Ex-Presidents of India when boarding a plane in India, The Airlines have to follow
it. Don't like it, petition for the law to be changed. Airlines doesn't like it, Don't fly to India.
Till then lets make sure the law is followed. As far the airlines, they must be fined heavily.
Was Musharaff frisked, when he was in Delhi recently. After all he is one of the biggest threat to security.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2009 10:43

A very simple method of retaliating.The next time Bill Clinton comes to India,strip search him...with gloves! After all he is no more than another ex-pres.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 22 Jul 2009 10:49

VikasRaina wrote:What is this frisking business. I thought the frisking is done by CISF while you are trying to get in after Immigration clearance. How come Airlines was involved in Frisking ?

Some air-lines do an additional bit of checking just before the passenger actually boards the air-craft. Usually done on the aero-bridge, just before he/she/it enters the flight. I have seen Jet Airways doing this when they are informed about some imminent threats. This check is done much after the CISF does its routine checking (i.e before entering the Security checked area, where we wait for the flight).

In case of Kalam, if a US air-line is imposing its own set of rules in an Indian airport, I feel they should be clearly shown that it is wrong. Or else such incidents would continue to happen.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2009 10:59

RaviBg wrote:A MODEST SUCCESS - India missed cashing in on the goodwill Hillary brought to it - KP Nayar

Hillary Clinton’s three-day visit to India will go down in the annals of Indo-US relations as a classic example of how the United Progressive Alliance government scored a self-goal: much like the ham-handed Indo-Pakistan summit in Egypt and the Group of Eight meeting in Italy.
...
...

Clinton’s immediate predecessor, Condoleezza Rice, told one thing in private to leaders in New Delhi and another in public. She used America’s relationship with India to advance her profile in the US and her personal standing in the White House, where she had been exposed as having no grip on anything except the Soviet Union, which had ceased to exist by the time she was ready to take up big jobs in Washington.

...
For a change, Nayar's article is just empty rhetoric. He doesn't mention why India missed cashing in on the goodwill. He even backs it up by quoting the NY times editorial and Talbott's article calling on India to join US In FMCT, environment caps etc. Nayar used to bring good inside info to the table. Why is he crying over something that wasn't in India's interest anyways?

I think KP Nayar is too long in DC and forgets Indian interests. I would like his article ripped apart. Is Ratan Tata's interest more than Indian interests? This is the most condesending whine article I have seen. Mrs Clinton brought golden handcuffs and this genius is sad that India dindt willingly let her get the credit for putting them on India! With experts like this why do we need foreign spies and fifth columnists?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 22 Jul 2009 12:09

Philip wrote:A very simple method of retaliating.The next time Bill Clinton comes to India,strip search him...with gloves! After all he is no more than another ex-pres.

He may just enjoy it!

Punish the airline.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 22 Jul 2009 12:19

Hillary, India And 'The New York Times
Sumit Ganguly

In a related vein, the U.S., after lengthy negotiations, will now also permit India's space program to purchase and use key American components in its launches. This agreement removes yet another barrier to critical technology transfers. Access to such technologies could give India's civilian and military space efforts a significant boost.

Did anyone come across any news item regarding this ? Will the US now let ISRO import items banned currently?

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 22 Jul 2009 12:28

So should airliners give an exemption to Nigerian Ministers? How about Libya? what about Iran? Maybe Pakistan? Burma? Half the Indian MPs are criminals from the CPI and Maost supporting lefties.

What kind of arguments are these and why are you finding it hard to comprehend such a simple issue?

If a foriegn airline decides to set up shop in Nigeria and do trade from its airport, it has to exempt Nigerian ministers from frisking if the Nigerian law says so. Same with Libya and Iran and Pakistan. If the law of a land says "don't walk on the streets naked," you cannot over-rule it because you were living in a nudist colony back home.

When you want to set foot on foriegn soil for any purpose, (i) you first seek permission from the soverign (visa), and (ii) you agree to submit to the authority of the soveriegn for the duration of your stay. Violation of any of these two terms is seen as a challenge to the soveriegn and will see you in jail. Is that clear enough? Siince ancient times, this is the fundamental basis of nationhood.

When Continental Airlines requested permission of the soverign of India (the president) through his advisor on commercial matters (commerce minister) to set up shop in the land, the company was granted permission by the soveriegn with the condition that "thou shalt not frisk ex-presidents of India who may decide to use your service." When the airlines decided to ignore this in the case of kalam, it threw a challenge to the authority of the soverign of India.

A show-cause notice has rightly been issued now to Continental Airlines for violation of protocol as per Indian laws. If charges are proved, the guy who ordered kalam's frisking faces six months in prison or Rs 10 lakhs fine or both. Ideally, this trading company should be barred from carrying its trade from the Delhi airport for the next ten years. This punishment should be given not actually to punish the Continental airline but to send a message to other airlines which are watching this episode.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 22 Jul 2009 12:48

No shortage of MUTU folks here I see. Even on BRF, and what would the aam aadmi think. No wonder the country thinks being a sell-out is a success, after all you are selling something to get money, i.e. commerce and we all know how good commerce is.

mnag · Post by **mnag** » 22 Jul 2009 13:06

Yes. I've a relative who is a director in ISRO. He mentioned the same thing and itseems several ISRO people are gettig ready to travel to US

tsriram wrote:Hillary, India And 'The New York Times
Sumit Ganguly

In a related vein, the U.S., after lengthy negotiations, will now also permit India's space program to purchase and use key American components in its launches. This agreement removes yet another barrier to critical technology transfers. Access to such technologies could give India's civilian and military space efforts a significant boost.
Did anyone come across any news item regarding this ? Will the US now let ISRO import items banned currently?

mnag · Post by **mnag** » 22 Jul 2009 13:10

A question to gurulog here.
Actually, what is the protocol regarding VVIPs on airlines? Does Indian Govt prohibit the frisking of VVIPs only on Indian soil or all over the world? Would there have been similar action taken if such incident had happend outside India?

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 22 Jul 2009 13:16

mnag wrote:A question to gurulog here.
Actually, what is the protocol regarding VVIPs on airlines? Does Indian Govt prohibit the frisking of VVIPs only on Indian soil or all over the world? Would there have been similar action taken if such incident had happend outside India?

The authority of the soveriegn of India (Indian government) does not extend beyond India's territory. So there is no such thing as "prohibiting frisking of Indians VVIPs all over the world." This condition is imposed as long as you are within Indian borders.

Other countries may ask ex-presidents of India to dance naked on the airport. However it will be seen as a discourtesy and humiliation of the people of India. So when the VVIPs from those countries visit India, they will also be told to dance naked on Indian airports.

To avoid such situations, countries mutually agree on a common protocol to be followed with each other's VVIPs and they agree to abide by it. A protocol officer accompanies the VVIPs to ensure that the agreed-upon protocol is followed. Any violation of the protocol by the host country is seen as an insult and a hidden message.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 22 Jul 2009 13:37

People's president is treated badly in India too

Looks like the uproar was caused by some other VVIPs who either want favorable treatment or were looking to distract people's attention. Must say it's disgraceful if the Indian government is not taking care of the former President by assigning security and a protocol officer.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 22 Jul 2009 13:44

George Fernandes demands public apology

George Fernandes said in a statement here on Tuesday that it was ironic that while “India hosts Hillary Clinton like a visiting queen and provides massive security to protect her,” a US airline (Continental Airlines) had “subjected our greatly loved and respected former president Abdul Kalam to a humiliating security check.”

Fernandes recalled that he was subjected to similar treatment, at Washington’s Dulles Airport in June 2003, when he was travelling to the US as India’s Defence Minister. He said, “While Indians are expected to take such insults graciously, and I believe that VIPs must not expect special privileges, in the case of someone with the stature and credentials of Kalam, the US administration should publicly apologise to India for their crass and disrespectful behaviour.”

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 22 Jul 2009 14:57

Inside Story - India's arms deal with the US - 21 July 09

Al-Jazeera

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 22 Jul 2009 18:19

^^^

Al-Jazeera trying hard to make India-Pak equal equal.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Jul 2009 19:46

Sanku wrote:No shortage of MUTU folks here I see. Even on BRF, and what would the aam aadmi think. No wonder the country thinks being a sell-out is a success, after all you are selling something to get money, i.e. commerce and we all know how good commerce is.

As I said earlier on another thread - the Muslim and European invaders had tougher fight. Now we are just handing over the country ourselves on a golden platter - all in the name of development. And you know lots of people would not mind as they would see growth, development and prosperity and lifting people from poverty. They are not to blame. That is how life is.

People say Religion killed more people than War. I say Trade killed more than Religion. Sadly War, Religion and Trade are all necessities of our life.