Should we discontinue EVMs?

[Dileep]

Who added that "manufactured in USA thing? What I find on the official eci site is:

Q21. Is it possible to program the EVMs in such a way that initially, say upto 100 votes, votes will be recorded exactly in the same way as the `blue buttons’ are pressed, but thereafter, votes will be recorded only in favor of one particular candidate irrespective of whether the `blue button’ against that candidate or any other candidate is pressed?

Ans. The microchip used in EVMs is sealed at the time of import. It cannot be opened and any rewriting of program can be done by anyone without damaging the chip. There is, therefore, absolutely no chance of programming the EVMs in a particular way to select any particular candidate or political party.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta has dropped the ball on the EVM replacement theory, and started a new one. Cable replacement theory. He has also dropped the trojan theory. So, unless Pranav comes back with the trojan again, the only standing scenario is cable replacement.

I have NOT "dropped" the BU replacement theory or CU replacement theory or BU + CU replacement theory. or replace part of BU (cable) theory. Or Trojan theory. I am raking them by "least efforts" needed to rig N (N = 20000 to 200,000) EVMs scattered over 200-400 seats.

If cable is soldered to BU, then changing cable needs many man hours and less preferable. One needs to see if some thing can placed (and later removed) inside the connector that connects cable with CU.

So far we assumed that duplicate BU is not possible as BU and CU are locked by keys. But if CU keys were leaked to CIA (or Congress MPs) by CEC or BEL, then BU replacement becomes further easy and more rigging friendly. The new rigged BU can even have remote interface, and the candidate number can be provided by remote. So one even if rigged BUs came in Jan-2009, they will do the job. One field agent can provide the candidate number to 100s of rigged BU any day after candidate number is given and before poll starts without even coming physically close. And 60 days have passed --- the rigged intelligent remote enabled BU used on polling day are now replaced by real dumb BUs.

Do BUs have memory? Do BUs record keystrokes etc? If not, how do you know that BU in warehouse today are the same BUs that were used on polling day?

----

One issue of verification of the integrity of the binary at BEL came up and got a bit sidetracked by the Checksum strawman. So, let me first put it to rest.

Can you see whose post used the word CHECKSUM first? It is yours not mine.

[Tanaji]

Can you see whose post used the word CHECKSUM first? It is yours not mine.

You were the one who claimed the mathematically impossible feat of defeating hash functions by "padding".

Stop using technical terms when you have absolutely no clue what they mean.

As an aside, were you aware that most hash functions will pad themselves when doing the transformation?

[Rahul Mehta]

One way pro-ballot paper can force EC to use paper ballots is to have 70 independents file nominations. Existing CU can accommodate only 4 BUs and thus only 64 candidates. If number of candidates exceed 64, EC will be forced to use paper ballots. Cost will be Rs 10000 per candidate or Rs 700,000 total. And even if CU can take more than 4 BUs, putting 4-5 BUs in every booth in every LS seat will make the system collapse. IOW, if pro-paper guys spend Rs 160,000 and get 16 candidates, EC will have to spend (Rs 5000 * 1500) = Rs 75,00,000 = Rs 75 lakhs in that seat, assuming one BU alone costs Rs 5000. Plus shipping costs will increase too.

I semi-support this idea. I would like CIA moles Chawala, MMS etc to accept ballot paper, raise deposit to Rs 100,000 so that nCandidates reduce to 4-8 and ballots become manageable and cheap. And we have an unriggable voting way. But if CIA moles in India leave us no choice, then pro-paper guys may have to act in way that would hurt everyone - file 70-100 nominations per seat.

----

Dileep,

I gave the website URL which says that chips are imported from US. I dont own that website and I did not insert the word USA. What I think is that EC must have used "chips are imported from USA" and that website took from EC. Later EC dropped the word USA. But does not matter where the chip came from --- it was imported and so CIA had option of rigging it in a way that cannot be later proved. If such a way exists, I assume that they did it.

[Tanaji]

I semi-support this idea. I would like CIA moles Chawala, MMS etc to accept ballot paper idea and raise deposit to Rs 100,000 so that nCandidates reduce to 4-8 and ballots become manageable and cheap.

Freudian slip eh Rahul Mehta? So this is what it is about: raising the deposit level so that the undesirables and independants cannot afford it and so they will lose out, so that the elite men will get their votes. Yes I know 100000 is not a big amount, but it is the precedent that you want to set that matters.

And you claim to be against NBJPRIE... is there really any more proof required that you are acting on the Neta's behalf?

[Dileep]

These days, miniature sized ASICs can do amazing things eg You can see a whole PC in 4*2*1 inch mobile mobile. So making a device that can send wrong inputs to CU with right protocol is trivial - one has to know the protocol in advance.

No, just knowing the protocol is not enough. Proxying is a well known concept in cryptography, and means to defeat that is part of any security suite.

And in the case I shows, the chips are not in the cable cord, but in the cable connectors which are large in size. Now someone (Dileep?) says that cables are soldered to BU. If so, then one needs to open the connector that goes into CU and place intelligent attachment there. I will take a look at some BU-CU pictures discuss further.

That makes it twice as difficult, because you have to solder TWO sets of wires.

BU and CU have keys and so one BU will work with only one CU. But if BU-CU keys were leaked, then one can make BU that would work with a given known CU. So say there are 50000 EVMs in CEC warehouse and Chawala or top guy in BEL gave out the keys of those CUs to CIA or Congress MP who repairs EVMs. Then CIA or Congress MPs can make duplicate BUs which will work with those CUs, and replace them with real BUs after row number was allocated to candidates. These 50000 BUs went to all over India in 300-400 Constituency and increased Congress counts by several thousand per Constituency. And after counting, CIA or the Congress MP (and his staff) replaced rigged BUs with real ones. If BU alone was replaced, then CU's counters need not be updated. Now if BU is also storing counts and keystrokes, then counters of real BU have to be updated. But AFAIK, only CU stored the counts and keystrokes, not BU.

Yes, copies of everything can be made in RahulWorld. When are you going to argue that copies of voters could be made and used to vote for Congress?

You keep repeating the SAME old litany that "ALL EVMs were stored in District". There are news that some 200,000 EVMs were made AFTER Jan-2009. In addition, many came from upgrade and the story says that upgrade was done by Congress MP's company. So it is KNOWN that not all districts had all the EVMs before election process started.

Refresh my memory please. Quote those two news items. The one that says 200,000 EVMS were made after Jan-2009. More importantly, the Congress MP's company did repairs to the EVMs. Please make it from standard media sources.

Some EVMs did came from CEC warehouse to District later. Were they dispatched after candidate numbers were given? If the new coming EVMs were dispatched after candidates got their numbers, then Chawala was in position of sending 50-100 new rigged BU or BU+CU to that LS seat. There is no publicly available information on how many EVMs were sent and when, and you keep declaring that "all districts had all EVMs they needed before candidate numbers were given". What makes you so sure that not even 50 EVMs came later?

If 50 EVMS came into the district, they got randomized into multiple constituencies within the district. It gets back into the DISTRICT STORAGE, so in order to put the good ones back, you still have to access the district warehouse. And this time you got an additional problem. You need to LOCATE those 50 in the warehouse!!

Trivial in RahulWorld!!

Why it is difficult for you to get the numbers, at least from your own place? Ask the district collector. File an RTI. Get the solid info and shut me up!

[Rahul Mehta]

Freudian slip eh Rahul Mehta? So this is what it is about: raising the deposit level so that the undesirables and independants cannot afford it and so they will lose out, so that the elite men will get their votes. Yes I know 100000 is not a big amount, but it is the precedent that you want to set that matters.

And you claim to be against NBJPRIE... is there really any more proof required that you are acting on the Neta's behalf?

Tanaji,

Many moons ago, in election thread, in April-2009, I said that deposits should be Rs 100,000.

In 1951, average Indian had less than Rs 80 in his bank plus cash in pocket. (source : RBI). And MP deposits were Rs 250. Today, average Indian has Rs 40,000 in bank plus cash. So making deposit Rs 100,000 is in sync with 1951 levels. And I have said this in public in that deposit MUST be Rs 100,000 at least. And more in 2014 election. So rest assured, there is no "Freudian slip". I mean it.

Now this is NOT the thread to discuss election deposits. So I will not discuss THIS further.

[Dileep]

I have NOT "dropped" the BU replacement theory or CU replacement theory or BU + CU replacement theory. or replace part of BU (cable) theory. Or Trojan theory. I am raking them by "least efforts" needed to rig N (N = 20000 to 200,000) EVMs scattered over 200-400 seats.

But I am sure a lot of the readers here are thinking of a "Brain Replacement Theory" already.

If cable is soldered to BU, then changing cable needs many man hours and less preferable. One needs to see if some thing can placed (and later removed) inside the connector that connects cable with CU.

The only possibility is a stacking connector, which will be clearly visible to everyone. You can't put something inside the connector. You will have to cut each of the cable strands and solder both the cut ends to the PCB.

So far we assumed that duplicate BU is not possible as BU and CU are locked by keys. But if CU keys were leaked to CIA (or Congress MPs) by CEC or BEL, then BU replacement becomes further easy and more rigging friendly. The new rigged BU can even have remote interface, and the candidate number can be provided by remote. So one even if rigged BUs came in Jan-2009, they will do the job. One field agent can provide the candidate number to 100s of rigged BU any day after candidate number is given and before poll starts without even coming physically close. And 60 days have passed --- the rigged intelligent remote enabled BU used on polling day are now replaced by real dumb BUs.

Why BU? You can put a "remote interface" to the CU itself, and let one agent sitting in Langley to controll all the CUs.

One issue of verification of the integrity of the binary at BEL came up and got a bit sidetracked by the Checksum strawman. So, let me first put it to rest.

Can you see whose post used the word CHECKSUM first? It is yours not mine.

Sure I said that. It was about the system WE followed in MY company. The product we make are not security critical, still wedo the verification. BEL will have much better systems in place.

[Tanaji]

BTW, have you ever taken a look at the EVM cable? Did you see how thin it is? That alone precludes putting a chip inside the cable.

Dileep has already shown why cable replacement is infeasible.

[Rahul Mehta]

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_co ... sa_1265953

Congress blames BJD of EVM tampering in Orissa
PTI
Wednesday, June 17, 2009 23:47 IST

Bhubaneswar: The Congress in Orissa on Wednesday reviewed possible reasons behind the party's dismal performance in Lok Sabha and assembly polls in the state, even as some leaders alleged manipulation of electronic voting machines and misuse of government machinery.

Congress general secretary and Union health minister Ghulam Nabi Azad met candidates of twin polls, state and district unit office-bearers and poll observers during which a section of leaders lamented non-implementation of President's Rule after BJD government won the trust vote in assembly by voice vote in a "controversial" manner.

A senior leader from western Orissa was understood to have blamed the leadership for not taking concrete steps for imposition of President's Rule after the trust vote in March and allowing Naveen Patnaik to remain in power during the election process, party sources said.

Maintaining that free and fair election would have taken place under Central rule, some Congress leaders accused the ruling BJD of manipulating EVMs, misusing government machinery and even poll officials, state Congress media cell chairman Kailash Acharya told reporters.

"It was felt that replacement of several EVMs at many places in a fraudulent manner and bogus voting led to defeat of a large number of Congress candidates," he said.

Some of the defeated candidates also spoke of weakness in party organisation, he said.

Azad, however, did not interact with media to brief about his meetings with the state party leaders as he held closed-door deliberations till late night.

A senior leader, who lost the Lok Sabha polls, was believed to have impressed upon Azad that failure to demand imposition of President's Rule in the state was a blunder on the part of party leadership, sources said.

Though it was a fit case for invoking Article 356 of the Constitution, little was done and BJD government which won the trust vote in a fraudulent manner by voice vote without proper recording was allowed to continue, they said adding "large scale irregularities were committed to ensure BJD's victory".

Many Congressmen claimed though there was no visible wave in favour of BJD, the party scored a landslide victory through rigging and manipulation of EVMs, Acharya said.

However, some of the leaders also attributed the poor show of the party to weak state leadership, organisational structure and mismanagement, sources said.

[Sanku]

So EVM seems to be another common thread which unites all the parties once more.

If you lose -- blame the EVM so easy after all so few understand machines and there are plenty of Kooks spreading lies (one example here too) to make it belivable.

So BJP blames congress which blames BJD, and is turn blamed by AIADMK who also pulls in DMK and Mayawati issues the order to have EVM crushed under elephant feet.

[Tanaji]

^^^

Oh, I thought in RahulWorld , the land where space time laws dont apply, Chawla was a CIA mole who evil as he was, rigged everything in favour of Congress. But then Mehtaji, how is it that inspite of having Chawla , the CIA on their side, Congress is accusing BJD of subverting the EVM?

Oh silly me, BJD must have taken the help of KGB/FSB to subvert the already subverted EVMs! Do tell us how they did it Mehtaji, did we have 2 sets of agents in each booth furiously punching keycodes? I can almost picture FSB agents running around with CIA agents furiously replacing circuit boards, cables, EVMs all under the noses of the district collectors...

[Dileep]

That news title is misleading. The only reference to the EVM in the whole news bit is

"It was felt that replacement of several EVMs at many places in a fraudulent manner and bogus voting led to defeat of a large number of Congress candidates," he said.

Where is tampering mentioned here? If an EVM fail in the booth, it is immediately removed and another one kept in reserve is delivered to the booth. There is a system to have reserve machines.

[Tanaji]

Sankuji,

I find it hard to believe that anyone can make the type of arguments that Rahul Mehta is making. It boggles the mind....

One question for the EVM opponents: were you guys sleeping in 2004 when 10 lakh EVMs were used? Why didn't you object then?

[Sanku]

Sankuji,

I find it hard to believe that anyone can make the type of arguments that Rahul Mehta is making. It boggles the mind....

Sir, I have always maintained that RMjees ideas are all like that onlee, grandiloquent statements on paper and full of writhing maggots high on cocaine underneath.

Wonder why he is allowed to continue on the forum, he may not be trolling consciously but IMVHO is the biggest troll ever on BRF despite that.

[Rahul Mehta]

The point regarding trojans has already been made - no need to keep repeating it.

Pranav,

The Trojan point is not 100% settled. If there is a trojan in OTP-ROM or microcode. how would trojan know the row number of the congress candidate? Some manual input via BU? Then how many field agents Congress (or CIA) would need to punch in the code? Where would they punch in the code?

Unless there is complete end to end operational manual type write up, theory is incomplete.

------

Dileep,

You mentioned something about putting remote interface in rigged CU. I thought of it, but then replacing CU would need setting counters. So putting remote interface in BU is less tedious -- it only needs two replacement operations in field, no counter settings in labs.

---

When I said that some N (N = 20000 to 200000) BUs were replaced by Congress (or CIA) at CEC warehouse, and then replaced back after election, I expected worthies to show how replacing 20000-more BUs over several weeks is impossible.

But what I hear from them is that RM is troll, RM should be banned, RM is bot etc etc. The old fact that when anti-RM elements run of arguments, they focus on RM-bashing is proving true once again.

Now can anyone explain, how replacing 20000-more BUs is physically impossible for CIA? Manufacturing 20000-more BUs with known CU keys is possible, I consider that issue closed from my side. Now what material obstacle stops CIA from having 20-30 field agents in CEC warehouse in several weeks, if Chawala is willing.

And do BUs record keystrokes. If yes, then there is hope to prove that BUs were never replaced. But from what I read, only CU store information, BUs dont store any information.

[pgbhat]

Sir, I have always maintained that RMjees ideas are all like that onlee, grandiloquent statements on paper and full of writhing maggots high on cocaine underneath.

new word to my vocab.

[Dileep]

And do BUs record keystrokes. If yes, then there is hope to prove that BUs were never replaced. But from what I read, only CU store information, BUs dont store any information.

OK. Now you are into BU replacement. Didn't figure that.
Whatever you do in BU will be static, and show up in mock poll. How do you propose to control the BU in a dynamic fashion?

[Rahul Mehta]

http://wbsec.gov.in/Laws_Doc/Page%201_20.pdf

Pls see page7 and page8 of above.

It says EVMs have DMM aka Detachable Memory Module.

Anyone knows what contents DMM stores?

[Dileep]

I re-read the ECI presentation and the Indireshan committee report about the BU and the cable, and here are the facts I found:

The current version BU seems to be a Passive device. It has no processor or memory. It just have the keyboard matrix and LED interface. Since there is no processor, there can't be any encrypted data. You can only send a signal up the driver lines of the matrix and sense key presses from the sense lines. There is no power going into the BU as well.

So, whatever corruption you can do will be static, and show up in the mock poll. If you want dynamic action, you will have to replace the whole BU and use "field activation".

Possible in RahulWorld.

[Sanku]

Anyone knows what contents DMM stores?

Navin Chawla's cell no.

[Rahul Mehta]

And do BUs record keystrokes. If yes, then there is hope to prove that BUs were never replaced. But from what I read, only CU store information, BUs dont store any information.

OK.

1. Now you are into BU replacement. Didn't figure that.


2. Whatever you do in BU will be static, and show up in mock poll. How do you propose to control the BU in a dynamic fashion?

1. I ignore sarcasms and insults etc as usual.

2.

a.The rigged BU had remote interface, clock etc. Unless it gets activation code, it will act like normal BU. Thru remote, BU got activate code, time when it should become active and candidate number. Only on poll day, it would give extra votes for chosen candidate.

b. So say rigged BU came to Gandhinagar on Jan-2009. It would act like normal BU as no one activated it. On April-15-2009, Congress got candidate no 2. The field agent sent activation code via remote (say distance of 100 ft) and told BU to prefer no.2 on date Apr-30-2009. So Congress got say 400 extra votes from that booth.

c. Counting ended on May-17-2009. In past 60-65 days, CEC field agent replaced that BU with real one. So unless BU stores key strokes, there is no way to tell that BU on warehouse was the BU in booth.

Now are you claiming that replacing 20000-N BUs is impossible for CIA, Chawala, MMS cabal?

Are district warehouses that safe that one cannot swap 50-100 BUs in warehouse, IYO?

Every DC has weak points, and Home Secretary can ask DC to shut up or face CBI inquiry. I have seen DCs cover up murder cases. So I dont think DCs would mind letting CIA agents swap 50-60 BUs. "What goes of my father" is what most DC would say. Particularity if that state is Congress rules (AP, Rajasthan etc).

[Dileep]

http://wbsec.gov.in/Laws_Doc/Page%201_20.pdf

Pls see page7 and page8 of above.

It says EVMs have DMM aka Detachable Memory Module.

Anyone knows what contents DMM stores?

The documents are either outdated or incorrect. No title or other relevant information. And it talks about electing President, Secretary, Treasurer etc.

The ECI website gives electronic copies of proper books with title, date etc, and it gives detailed procedures for everyone. The DMM is not mentioned. Also, the Indireshan committee report obtained via RTI clearly mentions that the vote storage is internal.

[Dileep]

1. I ignore sarcasms and insults etc as usual.

Well, the other choices you have are to turn honest, or desist from posting here. Since you are incapable of both, and god has blessed you with a thick skin, you choose to ignore.

I have no problem with that.

2.

a.The rigged BU had remote interface, clock etc. Unless it gets activation code, it will act like normal BU. Thru remote, BU got activate code, time when it should become active and candidate number. Only on poll day, it would give extra votes for chosen candidate.

b. So say rigged BU came to Gandhinagar on Jan-2009. It would act like normal BU as no one activated it. On April-15-2009, Congress got candidate no 2. The field agent sent activation code via remote (say distance of 100 ft) and told BU to prefer no.2 on date Apr-30-2009. So Congress got say 400 extra votes from that booth.

c. Counting ended on May-17-2009. In past 60-65 days, CEC field agent replaced that BU with real one. So unless BU stores key strokes, there is no way to tell that BU on warehouse was the BU in booth.

Now are you claiming that replacing 20000-N BUs is impossible for CIA, Chawala, MMS cabal?

Are district warehouses that safe that one cannot swap 50-100 BUs in warehouse, IYO?

Every DC has weak points, and Home Secretary can ask DC to shut up or face CBI inquiry. I have seen DCs cover up murder cases. So I dont think DCs would mind letting CIA agents swap 50-60 BUs. "What goes of my father" is what most DC would say. Particularity if that state is Congress rules (AP, Rajasthan etc).

Well, it is the same as changing CUs or cables. Trivial in RahulWorld.

[Rahul Mehta]

The documents are either outdated or incorrect. No title or other relevant information. And it talks about electing President, Secretary, Treasurer etc.

The ECI website gives electronic copies of proper books with title, date etc, and it gives detailed procedures for everyone. The DMM is not mentioned. Also, the Indireshan committee report obtained via RTI clearly mentions that the vote storage is internal.

Hindu article from March-2005. Now that doesnt seem "old"

======

http://www.hindu.com/2005/03/06/stories ... 120400.htm

Sunday, Mar 06, 2005
ECIL develops EVMs for local body polls

By Y. Mallikarjun

HYDERABAD, MARCH 5. After the Parliament and Assembly elections, the electors of local bodies can now have e-voting facility with the Electronic Corporation of India Limited developing Electronic Voting Machines suited to their needs.

The `multi-post, multi-vote' EVM is distinct in colour, connectivity and has an innovative feature -- Detachable Memory Module (DMM) which provides for storage and transfer of data, in addition to the built-in memory. The DMM was incorporated to enable the release of the machine for next elections, while retaining the storage data for future use.

Successful trials

Some 2,500 EVMs will be used in municipal elections in Maharashtra next month and another 5,000 in West Bengal in June, J. B. Venkata Ratnam, General Manager, Electronics Manufacturing Services Division, ECIL, told The Hindu here on Saturday. The EVMs would be despatched to Maharashtra and West Bengal by the month-end.

They were successfully tried in the by-elections held to local bodies recently in Nagpur, Chandrapur and Wardha.

Unlike the regular EVM, which has single post, single vote or double post, single vote mode, the new machine caters to multiple posts (up to eight). With four ballot units connected to the main control unit, the EVM provides for a total of 52 contesting candidates for eight posts.

Options

It allows the elector to choose more than one candidate for the same post (three vice-presidents or two general secretaries). Another unique feature of the latest EVM is that it has under-voting facility. F

or instance, if a voter is interested in opting for only two of the eight posts, he can do so by pressing the end button.

Mr. Venkata Ratnam said EVMs were tamper-proof, voter-friendly, cost-effective and caused less physical strain to the polling staff. Orders were expected from many more States in the coming months and ECIL was geared to meet the requirement.

He said there was good response at the State Election Commissioners' conference held at Pune a fortnight ago where the ECIL demonstrated the EVMs.

The conference recommended their use in the elections to local bodies.

He said that following a request from the Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh SECs last year, ECIL produced a developmental model and subsequently made a fully engineered version. The cost of each EVM is Rs. 10,000, the same as the regular one.

Following the successful use of EVMs on a mega scale during the Assembly and Parliament elections last year, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and some African countries had shown keen interest in them.

===================

What the hell is this DMM?

Dileep,

Can we focus on tech and logistics issues only and not bring reports from committees? Thanks.

---

1. You claim that replacing 20,000-N ballot boxes with 600-800 ballots in it within 15 days from poll to count is possible.

2. Next you claim that changing 20,000-N BUs in 60 days before and then 60 days after poll from a few CEC or a few District warehouses is not possible.

Pls explain how (2) is easier than (1). Thanks


===========

http://stateelection.maharashtra.gov.in ... le243k.htm

2. The State Government has introduced multi-member constituencies in municipal councils and corporations. The State Election Commission has approached the Electronics Corporation of India to develop an EVM to cater to the multi-member constituencies. The machine will have an additional feature in the shape of a detachable memory chip which can be removed and stored after the results for use in election petitions. This feature will hopefully rule out the possibility of sealing the entire set of machines in the event of an election petition.

So is DMM storing data? Or is the data in a chip that cant be touched without breaking the seal?

[Sanku]

Dear RM can you please tell me what part of the following

HYDERABAD, MARCH 5. After the Parliament and Assembly elections, the electors of local bodies can now have e-voting facility with the Electronic Corporation of India Limited developing Electronic Voting Machines suited to their needs.

Do you find so difficult to understand

[suryag]

I somehow have the feeling that RM is basically looking for ideas to fortify EVM and he is baiting Dileep Saar into providing ideas and explanations. Way to go RMji, I did have some respect for you earlier, but all that has vaporised now seeing the line of arguments you have been making

[Rahul Mehta]

I somehow have the feeling that RM is basically looking for ideas to fortify EVM and he is baiting Dileep Saar into providing ideas and explanations. Way to go RMji, I did have some respect for you earlier, but all that has vaporised now seeing the line of arguments you have been making

I am not baiting anyone.

I am writing how CEC with mere 20-50 men in Central/District warehouses and not even one man or criminal in field can rig the BUs (or EVMs) etc in unprovable ways. And add 100 seats. When someone feels the ways I have described are logistically infeasible with 20-50 men, they write back, and I make modifications in my theories. eg Dileep showed that cable replacement is far more difficult than I stated (and I thank him for that), and so I decided to increase rank of "BU replacement" theory.

If you note, it is Tanaji, Sanku etc who are throwing insults hoping that I would throw insults back. So they are the ones who are throwing baits, not me. I am confining to technical and logistical issues only.

As per "respect for me", I never bothered. I dont change my writing just because someone might lose respect he has for me.

[Tanaji]

I am confining to technical and logistical issues only.

No you are engaging in flights of fancy and hypothesis that are not based in actual facts, physical or mathematical science.

In other words you are trolling.

[Tanaji]

So is DMM storing data? Or is the data in a chip that cant be touched without breaking the seal?

DMM is NOT a feature of the EVMs that have been used in 2004 and 2009. The DMM is a feature that is to be used for future elections of local bodies, private elections etc. etc.

OF course that should not prevent you from arguing that they were used to subvert the 2004/9 elections.

[Tanaji]

Why BU? You can put a "remote interface" to the CU itself, and let one agent sitting in Langley to controll all the CUs.

Ah, "remote interface". Is that another technical jargon that you just looked up?

Putting a "remote interface" means putting in the actual hardware, the entire networking stack onto the hardware. All this means a lot more chips, a lot more processing hardware. Where do you think that is going to fit on the current hardware? More crucially, how do you think you will get an ISP to carry the control signals in remote places?

Why not do a modicum of thinking before using the next fancy word you hear?

[Rahul Mehta]

Why BU? You can put a "remote interface" to the CU itself, and let one agent sitting in Langley to controll all the CUs.

Ah, "remote interface". Is that another technical jargon that you just looked up?

Putting a "remote interface" means putting in the actual hardware, the entire networking stack onto the hardware. All this means a lot more chips, a lot more processing hardware. Where do you think that is going to fit on the current hardware? More crucially, how do you think you will get an ISP to carry the control signals in remote places?

Why not do a modicum of thinking before using the next fancy word you hear?

Tanaji,

I did not say that BU had GPRS interface which would need ISP or cell company or networking stack. Even that is possible, but I would not prefer that.

In the BU replacement theory , warehouse agents replaced BU with rigged BU, that looked like BU from outside and also much of inside. The remote inside rigged BU had RF (about 20m to 30m range) interface. So a field agent will need to go about 20 meters close to BU anytime after candidate number was given. The field agent with compatible RF device would input date and preferred candidate number and the rigged BU would add votes to that candidate on that date. RF can also work across walls. The field agent who is feeding BU is not facing any risk at all as he is 20 meters away from EVM punching number on a some device. With one code, he can activate all BUs in 20 meter range around him. So if he goes to District Warehouse after candidate number is given, and punches in date, candidate number etc from a remote device 20 m away, he can activate pretty much all the BUs.

And 60 days have passed since counting ended. In these 60 days, rigged BUs have been replaced with real BUs. Now BUs dont have memory unlike CU. So the existing BU in warehouse is blank as it is supposed to be. And it does not have any fishy chipset inside either. So audit of existing EVMs will say nothing about EVMs used in booths.

----

Now manufacturing such 20,000-more BUs for CIA etc is TRIVIAL. Or, are you saying that such rigged BU simply cant be manufactured even by CIA? The issue is : how many warehouse-agents are needed to replace 20000-more BUs in say 4 weeks of time and how many field agents are needed to activate them? If having so many agents is difficult, then task is difficult. Otherwise it is not.

Number of warehouse agents: IMO, 1 warehouse agents can replace low ball 100 BUs a day and so in 4 weeks, he can replace 100*4*7 = about 2500 BUs. So to replace 20,000 BUs, I need only 8 agents. To replace 200,000 BUs, I need 80 warehouse-agents. Thats all. And after counting, I have 60 days to replace BUs back. For this, I would need same number of warehouse agents at District warehouses. The District Collector will obey if Home Secretary in Center and State both ask him to obey.

Number of field agents: Field agent has to go some 10 meters near warehouse where BUs are stored and punch in the activation code, candidate number and polling date. He punches the code over compatible RF device he has. Over RF, all rigged BUs will get the codes in one shot. After activating these BUs, he goes to next district. So one field agent can cover 3 districts in a day. In 20 days, he can cover 60 districts. So to cover 400 seats each having 50-100 rigged BUs, I need only 10-12 field agents.

Manufacturing such rigged BUs: Will cost no more than Rs 50000 per piece for 20000 BUs. Not expensive for Congress or CIA. But the process is complex enough that Congress cant get it done, while CIA can. So I rank CIA over Congress.

----

Comparing BU replacement theory with other theories

One issue with trojan theory was inputting activate code and candidate number using field agent, who has to actually touch BU. This makes it risky for field agent and time consuming. And he has to get around the ink. But with remotely activate-able BUs, field agent can be several meters away from warehouse and activate all 50-100-more rigged BUs in one shot any day after candidate number was given.

The problem with replace CU (or replace whole EVM) theory was that replacing rigged CUs with unrigged CUs, after counting would need counters of unrigged CUs to be set. This needs too many warehouse agents. But in rigged BU theory, no counters need to be changed and so no man-power to set counters.

To replace cables, one needs lot of soldering and so needs too many ware-house agents. And soldering is too error prone if done at such large scale.

The man-power needed in "BU replacement theory" is lowest. And so I rank it highest.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta:

a.The rigged BU had remote interface, clock etc. Unless it gets activation code, it will act like normal BU. Thru remote, BU got activate code, time when it should become active and candidate number. Only on poll day, it would give extra votes for chosen candidate.

b. So say rigged BU came to Gandhinagar on Jan-2009. It would act like normal BU as no one activated it. On April-15-2009, Congress got candidate no 2. The field agent sent activation code via remote (say distance of 100 ft) and told BU to prefer no.2 on date Apr-30-2009. So Congress got say 400 extra votes from that booth.

c. Counting ended on May-17-2009. In past 60-65 days, CEC field agent replaced that BU with real one. So unless BU stores key strokes, there is no way to tell that BU on warehouse was the BU in booth.

Now are you claiming that replacing 20000-N BUs is impossible for CIA, Chawala, MMS cabal?

Are district warehouses that safe that one cannot swap 50-100 BUs in warehouse, IYO?

Every DC has weak points, and Home Secretary can ask DC to shut up or face CBI inquiry. I have seen DCs cover up murder cases. So I dont think DCs would mind letting CIA agents swap 50-60 BUs. "What goes of my father" is what most DC would say. Particularity if that state is Congress rules (AP, Rajasthan etc).

Dileep: Well, it is the same as changing CUs or cables. Trivial in RahulWorld.

Dileep,

In cable replacement, as you pointed out, the warehouse agent has to desolder the cable, solder the new cable and then after counting do it it again. This is time consuming as you rightly pointed out and so needs too many warehouse agents.

In CU replacement theory, warehouse agents will need to set the counters to what rigged CUs had in booth. Again, too many warehouse agents will be needed (unless we find something new like DMM).

In BU replacement theory, no such manpower is needed.

BU replacement needs prefabricated N (N = 20000 to 200000) BUs, and just 8 warehouse agents for 20000 BUs and 80 for 200,000 BUs. Activation needs only 10-12 field agents nationwide, and risk is zero. So BU replacement needs too less man-power

So BU replacement is NOT same as CU-replacement or cable replacement as you claim.

[Rahul Mehta]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6794194/Exper ... ort-on-EVM

Expert Committee Report on EVM

Page-9 (b) says : cable can be replaced.

Anyone knows how cable can be replaced?

[Dileep]

ECIL develops EVMs for local body polls
....
The `multi-post, multi-vote' EVM is distinct in colour, connectivity and has an innovative feature -- Detachable Memory Module (DMM) which provides for storage and transfer of data, in addition to the built-in memory. The DMM was incorporated to enable the release of the machine for next elections, while retaining the storage data for future use.

What the hell is this DMM?

The explanation is right there in the mewsclip. ECIL has developed a version of the EVM for WB govt, to be used in "multi-post, multi-vote" elections. That also have the DMM, which copies the count data to an external memory module.

NONE of these are relevant in the current discussion.

1. You claim that replacing 20,000-N ballot boxes with 600-800 ballots in it within 15 days from poll to count is possible.

2. Next you claim that changing 20,000-N BUs in 60 days before and then 60 days after poll from a few CEC or a few District warehouses is not possible.

No. I claimed that BOTH are ridiculous.

http://stateelection.maharashtra.gov.in ... le243k.htm

2. The State Government has introduced multi-member constituencies in municipal councils and corporations. The State Election Commission has approached the Electronics Corporation of India to develop an EVM to cater to the multi-member constituencies. The machine will have an additional feature in the shape of a detachable memory chip which can be removed and stored after the results for use in election petitions. This feature will hopefully rule out the possibility of sealing the entire set of machines in the event of an election petition.

So is DMM storing data? Or is the data in a chip that cant be touched without breaking the seal?

This is not relevant for this thread, but it seems that the counts data is copied to the DMM, which can be stored, while the CU itself could be released for another election.

[Dileep]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6794194/Exper ... ort-on-EVM

Expert Committee Report on EVM

Page-9 (b) says : cable can be replaced.

Anyone knows how cable can be replaced?

Cable is replaced along with the BU that is attached to it.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta:
1. You claim that replacing 20,000-N ballot boxes with 600-800 ballots in it within 15 days from poll to count is possible.

2. Next you claim that changing 20,000-N BUs in 60 days before and then 60 days after poll from a few CEC or a few District warehouses is not possible.

Dileep : No. I claimed that BOTH are ridiculous.

If rigging paper ballots is also as difficult, then where is the need of EVMs? Cost? You are yet to give any proof that EVM saves costs except statements from EC. The EVM cost is Rs 10000 and cost increases with each BU. If EVM with 2 BUs may cost Rs 13000. Even if Rs 10000 of cost, it would be 10 elections before paper cost is covered. And if EVM is used only in MLA, MP elections, that means 15 years.

Plus there is cost in training booth staff, counting staff etc. These days, with election, 2-3 GoI employees per booth have to attend training program for 1/2 a day. EC does not take it as major cost as EC pays them only Rs 100 to Rs 200 . But these employees cant work for 1/2 day or 1 day and get full salary from their respective GoI unit. That is an indirect training cost, which was not there in paper, as paper was intuitive and physically visible. So training cost per booth, if salary of that GoI employee is included is over Rs 800 to Rs 1500 per booth per election.

And there is cost in storage, having BEL technicians test then 2-4 times before each elections. You see plethora of manuals to run EVMs. And to that, you are demanding plethora of autid - audit of chips, audit of PCBs, audit of cables etc. Even if 7000 out of 700,000 EVMs are audited with all high tech autdits you propose, costs would run into crores. Plus there is cost in upgrades, repairs and maintainence. This looks more like NREGS for BEL than any cost saving.

And at the end of all these expenses, you claim that paper ballot rigging is indeed difficult !! So there was no major security breach problem with paper ballot, there is no cost saving with EVM, there is a possibility of industrial scale rigging from top (which is zero in paper ballots) - and yet you support EVM !!

----

Anyway, I have shown that :

1. with as few as 8 warehouse agents and 10-12 field agents nationwide who face zero risk and with co-operation of CEC, PM, Home-Secretary : 20,000 BUs can be replaced and replaced back leaving no proofs. I dont need DCs to co-operate till counting ends. The co-operation of DCs is needed AFTER counting ends, and with HomeSec co-operating, they can be threatened to shut up.

2. with as few as 80 warehouse agents and 10-12 field agents nationwide who will face zero risk and with co-operation of CEC, PM, Home-Secretary : 200,00 BUs can be replaced and replaced back leaving no proofs

You claim that CIA cant pull this trick. Essentially, you are claiming that CIA cant administer 8-80 warehouse agents and cant administer 10-12 zero risk field agents. And that CEC, PM, Home Sec will not sell out. Fine. You go with your beliefs. I have started quest for commons who do believe that MMS, Chawala, HomeSec are CIA agents and so they co-operated in rigging polls with CIA. And they also believe that CIA is capable of running operations that needs 100-200 people.

-----

The newspaper AD I will put will make appeal to every pro-ballot citizen that he should cough up Rs 10000 of his own savings and become a candidate. If 65 people agree, then EC will have to use paper ballot as existing EVMs can support no more than 64 candidates. If CIA moles such as PM, CEC, HomeSec etc are hell bent on keeping a riggable mechanism intact, then we pro-paper citizens have no option but go for a lose-lose way.

[Dileep]

I agree that the BU replacement theory is the "least effort" of all the outlandish claims that RM made.

But it is like comparing the ease of climbing mountains. Everest, Nanga Parbat and Kanchan Junga. Nanga PArbat is the toughest to climb, Everest is the highest and gloriest, and Kanchan Junga is a bit easier than either.

Still you have to "climb a mountain", though a bit easier than the toughest.

Now, the following are the deterrents against the BU Replacement.

The issue of storage at district level, sealed warehouses etc are all common to all theories.

1. The units are inspected before usage.
2. There are "seals and tags" that need to be reproduced exactly. You will need to take out the rigged BUs, read the information from the stickers, write them onto the stickers on the original BUs, including signatures and script in matching ink. Each BU is handled by a different set of polling people, so each sticker and seal will be different. You need to take the old BUs out from the sealed district warehouse, do the forgery and replace them back to the same place. Unlike soldering operation, you need expert forgers to do the forgery. You can't remove all the units in one night, take weeks to do the forgery and replace them all together in another night. So, you will have to access the warehouse repeatedly, like every day, in total secrecy.

Quite possible in RahulWorld.

3. The remote magic can't be done in the warehouse. It has machines for all the constituencies in the district. So, it need to be done in the field only. Not a problem in RahulWorld.

[Dileep]

If rigging paper ballots is also as difficult, then where is the need of EVMs? Cost?
<snip>

It is a matter of fundamental assumptions. You ASSume that CIA is out there to do nationwide rigging. I totally discount that argument.

I am concerned about the local thug politicians rigging, to which the ballot is highly susceptible, and the EVM is completely immune. You aren't worried about that because you yourself are a politician, and looking at the dishonesty you have exhibited, I even tend to think that you WANT it to be locally riggable.

So, my POV is clear. Ballot or EVM, they are both equally difficult to rig by the CIA. Ballot is infinitesimally easier to rig by a local thug politician, while EVM is practically immune.

Which would I take? I take the latter!

Anyway, I have shown that :

1. with as few as 8 warehouse agents and 10-12 field agents nationwide who face zero risk and with co-operation of CEC, PM, Home-Secretary : 20,000 BUs can be replaced and replaced back leaving no proofs. I dont need DCs to co-operate till counting ends. The co-operation of DCs is needed AFTER counting ends, and with HomeSec co-operating, they can be threatened to shut up.

No, you haven't. See the dishonesty here. You need warehouse agents (including the district collector, his personal staff, the junior officer who is responsible for the warehouse, laborers, truck drivers etc) in district level. Then you need same at state level too. Still you claim the numbers in "national level".

And you are not talking about reproducing the "Security measures" ie seals and stickers either. You are not talking about the simple detail that the machines must be replaced at the district warehouse.

2. with as few as 80 warehouse agents and 10-12 field agents nationwide who will face zero risk and with co-operation of CEC, PM, Home-Secretary : 200,00 BUs can be replaced and replaced back leaving no proofs

You claim that CIA cant pull this trick. Essentially, you are claiming that CIA cant administer 8-80 warehouse agents and cant administer 10-12 zero risk field agents. And that CEC, PM, Home Sec will not sell out. Fine. You go with your beliefs. I have started quest for commons who do believe that MMS, Chawala, HomeSec are CIA agents and so they co-operated in rigging polls with CIA. And they also believe that CIA is capable of running operations that needs 100-200 people.

No, you go on a quest for your own benefit. You want to become big in politics, and you want to use your partial technical knowledge, inches thick skin, and unscrupulous mind to shoot down the use of EVMS, so that you and your kind can rig the ballots in bliss.

The newspaper AD I will put will make appeal to every pro-ballot citizen that he should cough up Rs 10000 of his own savings and become a candidate. If 65 people agree, then EC will have to use paper ballot as existing EVMs can support no more than 64 candidates. If CIA moles such as PM, CEC, HomeSec etc are hell bent on keeping a riggable mechanism intact, then we pro-paper citizens have no option but go for a lose-lose way.

Well, it is your money. You can make any AD in any paper. Just let me know how many "pro-paper" citizens came out, willing to shell out the Rs 10000 for your cause.

Also, since I live at the deep south, please be kind enough to post a scan of the AD here.

[Rahul Mehta]

1. The units are inspected before usage.

2. There are "seals and tags" that need to be reproduced exactly. You will need to take out the rigged BUs, read the information from the stickers, write them onto the stickers on the original BUs, including signatures and script in matching ink. Each BU is handled by a different set of polling people, so each sticker and seal will be different. You need to take the old BUs out from the sealed district warehouse, do the forgery and replace them back to the same place. Unlike soldering operation, you need expert forgers to do the forgery.

3. You can't remove all the units in one night, take weeks to do the forgery and replace them all together in another night. So, you will have to access the warehouse repeatedly, like every day, in total secrecy.

4. The remote magic can't be done in the warehouse. It has machines for all the constituencies in the district. So, it need to be done in the field only.

1. The inspection is superficial and checking of external tags only. They dont open the BU and check PCB, chips etc. Even if they do, the naked eye examination wont tell anything.

2-3.

a. The rigged BUs came from CEC warehouse. Over 100,000 BUs were sent from CEC warehouse to Districts after Dec-2008. May be 200,000. So that does not any forging of signatures. Forging of signatures need when rigged BUs are to be replaced by real BUs after counting is over.

b. CEC can forge "complaints from voters" and send his men to examine EVMs. They can break the seals in the name of checking. So when agents come to replace BUs, they dont have to forge anything. CEC can also ask DC to send those EVMs back to CEC warehouse to repairs. In the name of repairs, he can break all seals and then no forgery is needed.

c. Even if BUs are to be replaced in District Warehouse, how many men are needed? Say each District has 1500 EVMs of which 200 are rigged. In first visit, 2 warehouse agents take out 50 BUs and next night keep 50 real ones back with the forged signatures, and take another 50 rigged BUs out. So they need only 5 visits. So with 2 agents, 5 nights and all 200 BUs in district warehouses are replaced with newly forged seals. (As if anyone has countersign to check them if need arises). So with 80 agents, I can cover 480 District warehouses on 60 days.

d. CEC can use mix to (b) and (c). Say 80,000 BUs are rigged in 400 seats. about 200 in each seat. In places like AP where most DCs are CIA agents, he can send warehouse agents. And in places like Gujarat where DC may not yet be a full CIA agent, he will recall EVMs for testing.

IOW, man-power needed is still less than 100 ware-house agents.

4. I already said that activation via remote would need field agent, but not more than 10-12 national wide. Each agent goes to district warehouse AFTER candidate number is given. He inputs date, candidate number and number etc and all rigged BUs in district warehouses will be set to add N extra votes to that candidate on polling day. There is no risk, as he is not coming even 10 meters close to BU. It will take him say 1-2 hours per LS seat (1 LS seat = 1 warehouse). So in one day, he can activate 3-4 districts. In 15 days, he can activate 60 sets of BUs, one seat in each LS seat. So to activate 400 LS seats' BUs, I need no more than 10 field agents.

----------

Lately, I see that you dont make logistic based arguments which you rightly did in case of cable or trojan theories etc. You restrict to sarcasm throwing and insult throwing ("in RahulWorld only") etc. I take that as sign of frustration --- you cant show that BU replacement is logistically impossible and so have resorted to sarcasms and insults to cover it. This is not first time. All anti-RM elements are known to show this tendencies. I can throw similar sarcasms (eg Cant CIA bribe CEC? Cant CIA bribe MMS? Cant CIA have 100 field agents? In DileepWorld only ). But I would like to confine to showing logistic/technical details, give corresponding estimates and let the adversaries show where estimates are wrong. Sarcasm throwing is not my cup of tea.