Should we discontinue EVMs?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 08:32

It is my conviction that corrupting a large number of public officials in favour of one party is impossible. Everyone have party bias. (I hate commies for eg). In the govt system, no one can act alone.

RM says, DC will ask the store keeper to give the key. The system doesn't work like that. There will be multiple keys to the strong room, in the official custody of different officers. they themselves don't keep the key. They will keep it in a safe in their office, and those safes will have multiple keys, one with his AO and another with the clark in charge of "records". There is lot of procedures to get them. All the clarks are unionized, and will demand to know if the corruption is in favour of his party. If one of the clarks is CITU, the brown thing gets out.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Jul 2009 08:33

Fair enough. The only thing that is possible is replacing BU. This can only be done at districts/polling centers where the EVMs are actually sealed and stored. It is also maintained with CRPF security.

Dileep wrote:
The order of candidates on the ballot is as follows:

Recognized Parties
Other registered parties
Independents.

In each of those blocks, the individual candidates are arranged in ascending order of the alphabet in the local language. So, here in DMA, the order was "Thomas", "Radhakrishnan", "Sindhu". If "Hybi" was the cong candidate, as the favourite, he would have been last.

Are you sure? Any EC document? I thought it is through randomization.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 09:21

One important hidden cost in EVM : Training.

The poll date in my constituency was Apr-30-2009. I went to my bank on Apr-29. Some 8 employees had gone for training. How much EC pays for that training time? Less than Rs 150 a day. So cost on EC books was just Rs 150. But bank has to pay that employee full salary. If each employee costs Rs 500 a day, hidden cost is Rs 350 per employee per day. When it was paper training was just 1-2 hours and people went in evening time. Now with EVM training has become a day or two days long. So per booth, there and there we have an extra hidden cost of Rs 350 per election.

Likewise, the counting staff too has to be given 1-2 days of training about how to open EVM, how to press buttons, how take scores and how to close the EVM back. In case of paper, training took less time as everything was visible.

Total cost of election was about Rs 1200 cr or Rs 1700 per booth. Some hidden costs are common between paper and EVM. But the hidden costs in training for EVM are much larger.

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Dileep,

So on-chip RF based Trojan is out for now. So if there is RF based Trojan, it is on PCB of CU or BU.

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I will re-state my BU-replacement theory

Phase-I :
1.1 Chawala with some 50 men replaced 100,000 BUs in CEC warehouse in Jan-2009. The new BU had RF interface for activation and taking candidate number anytime. No. of people to be bribed = few at top and few at bottom (warehouse staff). Everything is done in 2-4 locations.

1.2 Before polling dates, field agents sent candidate numbers to BU over RF. Zero risk. Number of agents needed = 10-12 nation wide.

Phase-II :

2.1 Chawala has replaced (or is replacing as we debate) rigged BU with real ones from District warehouses
2.2 Number of persons his agents need to bribe = DC , warehouse guards. Number of agents Chawala needs = 80-100 agents for 60 day time frame

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Lets say Phase-II is not yet over, or not even started. Then also, there is nothing to worry. No SCj will even appoint a committee of honest men to do a TRUE survey of TRULY randomly selected BUs. So the rigged BUs will never come out.

So there is no time limit of 60 days on Phase-II. Phase-II need not even be carried out.

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Muppalla wrote: Upto 64 candidates there is no big deal in EVMs. If there is a chance to sabotage, the main scoundrels will spend money and make sure there are more candidates. Now the costs are increased becasue of EVMs as they have to bring extremely large number of candidates to beat the system.

You only need Rs 650,000 to force EC to use paper ballots in one LS seat. Typical election are now Rs 25 cr per seat for winning candidate, losers extra. So forcing EC to use paper in each of the 540 seat is not difficult for BJP or Congress or even CPM. The fact is : it is pointless and gives only negative publicity and does more harm than good, unless one wants to make a point against EVMs. Then also, he should restrict it to 2-5 seats.

The parties will have money for few constituencies but not too many. Bihar under Laloo and many INC ruled states used to resort to such tactics. I have see ballot boxes of the size of general overhead size Syntex tank. They used many kinds of transportation to transport these boxes. 1980s and 1990s are all splashed with such elections.

Thats because EC used to give voter list to each candidate for free. Back then xerox was expensive and time consuming. And so getting a free copy of voter list was major cost and time saver. EC changed the rules in 1990s. Now only recognized parties get voter list for free and rest including independents have to pay. And number of candidates dropped. IOW, it was freebie WRONG law of giving free voter list copy that created mess.

So large ballot box was due to wrong freebie law. Not paper. Lets not blame paper for the mess EC created for reasons other than paper.

The voter list today with pix costs Rs 1 per page, about Rs 50000 to Rs 100,000 for whole LS seat. If EC were to make the same freebie law again, that candidates will get free voter list, then number of candidates will increase to 50, because the voter on CD does not have pix and taking print out of that would cost over Rs 10000.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 09:54

Dileep wrote:RM says, DC will ask the store keeper to give the key. The system doesn't work like that. There will be multiple keys to the strong room, in the official custody of different officers. they themselves don't keep the key. They will keep it in a safe in their office, and those safes will have multiple keys, one with his AO and another with the clark in charge of "records". There is lot of procedures to get them. All the clarks are unionized, and will demand to know if the corruption is in favour of his party. If one of the clarks is CITU, the brown thing gets out.

At such key places, CM always keep clerks that are faithful to CM and no one else. On this I am 100% sure. Each time CM changes, all "key" clerks change. I have seen that number of times. CM also uses these clerks to spy on DC. So I wont worry about the clerks in states like AP and any congress ruled state. They are all 100% loyal to CM, and the CMs are 100% loyal to CIA.

The procedures will be bypassed when someone is doing something wrong.

Yes, your "multiple keys to strong room" increases requirement. Essentially, DC and Additional DC both have to be bribed, and one more clerks. The warehouse guards are no-bodies -- mere Rs 500 of bribe will do.

But BU-replacement from District warehouse comes AFTER counting and is less critical. BU replacement in warehouse is NOT needed to steal the votes, it is only needed to cover the tracks later. And as I said, there is no time limit on this operation.

And one more thing about administration : when DC and CM agree - NO junior staff will dare to stop them. Most they can do is leak the information. But if anyone tries to stop DC or CM, DC and CM will ensure that he and ALL his family members rot in prison for years and years and years. So if DC and CM has agreed to pull a scam inside warehouse - it is done deal. Otherwise, CM has to transfer that DC and/or wait till a friendly DC comes. It is only a matter of time.

So Chawala has years to replace the rigged BUs. And say someone finds out. Say opposition claims that DC replaced 200 BUs. So? ToI will dismiss them as rabble rouser and people (like you) who believe in ToI more than God will also dismiss complainer as rabble rousers. People have proved scams 10s of times and each time they were dismissed as rabble rousers by believers. Worst comes worst, some corrupt retired SCj with good image will be appointed to investigate and he will give clean chit after 10 years. Haven't you seen this drama before?

Making 100,000 duplicate BU is TRIVIAL for CIA. Now you need to show that replacing 100,000 BUs in CEC warehouse is logistically impossible, and I dont see how given that CIA owns Chawala, and that warehouse is under Chawala.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 10:05

Muppalla wrote:Fair enough. The only thing that is possible is replacing BU. This can only be done at districts/polling centers where the EVMs are actually sealed and stored. ...

Muppalla,

100,000 BUs were not replaced at District warehouse in my proposed BU replacement theory. They were replaced at CEC warehouse, which are under CIA agent Chawala. CEC ordered 100,000 EVMs in Oct-2008. I am assuming that they first came to CEC warehouse and from there they went to districts warehouse. And my theory says that CIA agent Chawala got these 100,000 BUs replaced or got say 50000 of them replaced.

Also, some unknown number of EVMs were give to a Congress MP in the name of "repairs". It is possible that he changed the BUs with look alike BUs and the new BU has RF based trojan. If someone rips apart the box and sees PCB under hand lens he will see that PCB has changed. But not otherwise.

---

After counting, to cover the tracks, Chawala has to now send agents to District warehouses and replace those 100-200 BUs per LS seat with real ones. There is no stringent time limit here. The BUs cant be touched without court order. And SCjs will take at least 6 months to give such order. So there is no hurry.

.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 10:22

Muppalla wrote: Are you sure? Any EC document? I thought it is through randomization.

Yes. The handbook of returning officers http://eci.nic.in/ElectoralLaws/HandBoo ... ficers.pdf gives the procedure.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 13:16

Does anyone see how Rahul Mehta is reasoning? First he claims its a EVM replacement that happened, then when that is shot down he claims its cable replacement, then he got hold of the jargon of RFID on chip, then now its RFID on BU....

All the time assuming he can bribe DC's , EC officials, etc at will.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 13:23

So on-chip RF based Trojan is out for now. So if there is RF based Trojan, it is on PCB of CU or BU.

The BU is essentially a dumb unit that does not have much intelligence in it. To put a RF unit inside it implies that you need to find a power source for it. Your wonderful RFID theory does not work here since power requirements for relays at BU is very large. So it will have to be an active battery, and you cannot use the battery that is used for EVM. Next, you need to have a PCB that fits the form factor of EVM in such a way that it can fit inside the BU. Thirdly, you need to sort out your antenna requirements. Do go around spouting 10 mm antenna: antennas are a function of the frequency you operate along with other factors. LAstly the PCB will have some components on it: the RF stage, the receiving stage and the circuitry to modify the signals from each key press.

In short, all the above results in a contraption that cannot be hidden easily and will be visible. Next you need to get it into the BU with all the attendant difficulties.

Possible of course in RahulWorld where there are no time and space laws.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 13:30

1.1 Chawala with some 50 men replaced 100,000 BUs in CEC warehouse in Jan-2009. The new BU had RF interface for activation and taking candidate number anytime. No. of people to be bribed = few at top and few at bottom (warehouse staff). Everything is done in 2-4 locations.

1.2 Before polling dates, field agents sent candidate numbers to BU over RF. Zero risk. Number of agents needed = 10-12 nation wide.

Again more ASSumptions. Do you have proof that states that all EVMs are stored centrally? Have you ever looked at 100,000 books in one location? There were 1 lakh BUs in 2004 alone. In 2009 the number would have been far far greater. 50 people to replace each and every lot...
You also conveniently left out the inspections carried out by ECIL and BEL engineers before the elections. But then there is CIA in your world that will bribe them also!

possible in RahulWorld

So now you are saying 10 people send candidate numbers... how far before the elections is this to happen?
If the thing is activated at the warehouse, you do realize that at the polling booth there is a mock poll that is conducted in presence of party agents. it will be found out t that time. But maybe all the agents are bribed as well

Possible in RahulWorld

This thread is fast outliving its usefulness.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Jul 2009 13:53

Tanaji wrote: This thread is fast outliving its usefulness.

Which happens to every thread that RMjee decides to grace. Had the discussion not truly be turned to la la land, we could have had a meaningful debate about the "real" possible weakness and means to improve it.

SanjayChoudhary and Pranav (for ex) could continued to play devils advocate to break the system while others analyzed their reasons.

However on the positive side Dileep has given a EE 101 course for those have taken to read through his posts.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 14:56

So, the only standing scenario is the massive replacement of a component of the EVM, despite the safeguards built into the system. It is not standing on its own, it is illusionarily propped up using supports that doesn't exist.

I have made my points on the system of safeguards. Unlike electronics which is a definite science, these safeguards are civic and political, so they can't be definitive. RM is exploiting this feature of the system. Only definitive technical reasons can shut him up, and the operative safeguards are not one.

I am convinced that replacement of EVMS is not possible, and is not a viable threat. I have no more interest in beating that dead horse.

I will respond to points other than the above.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 15:43

Tanaji wrote:Do you have proof that states that all EVMs are stored centrally?

Non-issue. Evev if CEC has 5 warehouses or 10 warehouses, they are all under Chawala. And surely they dont have 100s of warehouses

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Dileep,

50 people to replace each and every lot.

50 person working over month are enough to replace 100,000 BUs in 20 days.

Also, pls do note that as you add more complexity in the name of safe guards, costs is increasing.

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You also conveniently left out the inspections carried out by ECIL and BEL engineers before the elections. But then there is CIA in your world that will bribe them also!

The BUs came in Jan-2009. And so they were new. And elections were starting in April-2009. No time and no need to do inspection. If "random" sample was chosen, randomization will be 1-2 guys at top, and they picked only the right ones. So the junior staff only got the good BUs and certified them.

1. So now you are saying 10 people send candidate numbers... how far before the elections is this to happen?

2. If the thing is activated at the warehouse, you do realize that at the polling booth there is a mock poll that is conducted in presence of party agents. it will be found out t that time. But maybe all the agents are bribed as well

2. Mock polls dont exceed 20-30 votes. So if rigging is programmed to start after 100 votes, mock polls wont detect it. The candidate number can be fed over RF after number issued and before poll starts, some 15 days of time. And if one can manage to put a clock in rigged BU, then rigging can be set to start on polling date and time. The polling date and time will be also fed by RF.

1. Election was in 5 phases spread over some 20 days. All BUs are in district warehouse and so can be fed the candidate number (few bytes) over RF in one go. So one field agent will need no more than 2-3 hours per LS seat. So in one day he covers 3-4 LS seats and in 20 days he covers 60 seats. So to feed candidate numbers to BUs in 300 seats, 10 agents are enough. Also, there is zero risk here. If a person is 10 meters away from warehouse punching buttons on his laptop sized device which looks like laptop, no one would suspect that he is feeding candidate numbers to EVMs i locked room over RF.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 15:56

You have not come back with the numbers. How many EVMS got shipped to your district? And where did they come from? BEL sends it directly? Or they go to a central location and gets distributed?

File an RTI. Get the info.

I am sure that all storage is done on a district basis, and BEL delivers the EVMs directly to the DEOs. There is no logistic sense to deliver them into a central warehouse.

In any case, the EVM distribution co-ordination is the responsibility of the states CEO. Are you sure that all state CEOs are corrupt?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 16:02

I called the clerk of my bank, who was on poll duty.

He spent 3 days in training and 1 day in poll duty. When it was paper, training was just one day. EC paid him only Rs 200 per day. The bank is paying his salary. So bank is bearing his cost, effectively. So hidden cost = Rs 600*3 = Rs 1800 per person. And 2 persons per booth get this training. Now when it was paper, training was just one day.

So hidden training costs in EVM shoots up by Rs 2400 per booth.

Total expense of booth is Rs 17000. This what EC pays. But hidden costs, such as 2 extra days of training period for 2 persons per booth is there. So EVM is not saving money --- it is costing more.

Imagine that we buy PCs and teach PCs to everyone in bank, and the bank uses them only 2 days in 5 years. There will be no saving. The PC and automation saves money because you use it everyday. If there is something that is to be done only once or twice in 5 years, doing in manual old fashioned way will be cheaper than making an equipment, maintaining it, upgrading it, training people and so forth.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 16:06

The EC is on record saying it saved $40 million not to mention the environmental impact.

So you claim they are lying?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 16:07

Dileep wrote:You have not come back with the numbers. How many EVMS got shipped to your district? And where did they come from? BEL sends it directly? Or they go to a central location and gets distributed?

File an RTI. Get the info.

No need. If some 100,000 EVMs were made in Jan-2009, they went somewhere. If not my district some other district. Makes no difference. In fact, if there are rigged BUs, none came to my district as all 3 seats in my district are 100% BJP sure seats. So sending rigged BU here will wasting that BU.

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I am sure that all storage is done on a district basis, and BEL delivers the EVMs directly to the DEOs. There is no logistic sense to deliver them into a central warehouse.

In any case, the EVM distribution co-ordination is the responsibility of the states CEO. Are you sure that all state CEOs are corrupt?

And why would Chawala or anyone deliberately appoint honest ones? If Chawala wants to rig the poll, which is starting assumption, that as far as possible, he would appoint dishonest State CEOs only.

Also, once can replace BUs during shipments from one warehouse to another. There are too many points and places to replace BUs. The junior staff will not bother if seniors have told them to stay put.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 16:13

Tanaji wrote:The EC is on record saying it saved $40 million not to mention the environmental impact.

So you claim they are lying?

Can you show his calculations?

If savings are Rs 200 cr, then we are surely losing money.

Because EVMs has increased training periods of booth staff. 2 persons now spend 2 extra days per booth in trainning. If each man days is Rs 600, the hidden costs of these persons is Rs 2400, which is per booth. Rs 2400 * 700,000 = Rs 168 cr. Also, EC will not count storage costs as it is borne by districts. But storing EVM is hell more expensive than ballots. And land cost is not counted anywhere in Govts. But storing EVMs will take more land.

So if Rs 200 cr is what EC says, add the hidden costs of extra man days lost in trainning , cost of storing at district level, cost of land etc. There is NO saving but increase in expenses.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 16:15

Rahul Mehta wrote: No need. If some 100,000 EVMs were made in Jan-2009, they went somewhere. If not my district some other district. Makes no difference. In fact, if there are rigged BUs, none came to my district as all 3 seats in my district are 100% BJP sure seats. So sending rigged BU here will wasting that BU.

So, do you agree that the "replacement" has to happen at the district warehouse?

And why would Chawala or anyone deliberately appoint honest ones? If Chawala wants to rig the poll, which is starting assumption, that as far as possible, he would appoint dishonest State CEOs only.

The CEC don't appoint the CEO. The state does. The current CEO of Kerala is appointed by the commie govt.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 16:16

Rahul Mehta wrote:
Dileep wrote:You have not come back with the numbers. How many EVMS got shipped to your district? And where did they come from? BEL sends it directly? Or they go to a central location and gets distributed?

File an RTI. Get the info.
No need..

Did you not get the memo? Mehtaji thinks RTI is "useless".

Opposition to EVM, RTI is useless, proponent of more time wasting by jury system, increasing deposit amounts so that ordinary people cant contest ... do we not see a pattern here? Which category benefits the most by such an agenda that introduces a lot more delay, denies transparency and extends status quo?

The Netas of course...

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 16:17

Rahul Mehta wrote:
Tanaji wrote:The EC is on record saying it saved $40 million not to mention the environmental impact.

So you claim they are lying?
Can you show his calculations?

If savings are Rs 200 cr, then we are surely losing money.

Because EVMs has increased training periods of booth staff. 2 persons now spend 2 extra days per booth in trainning. If each man days is Rs 600, the hidden costs of these persons is Rs 2400, which is per booth. Rs 2400 * 700,000 = Rs 168 cr. Also, EC will not count storage costs as it is borne by districts. But storing EVM is hell more expensive than ballots. And land cost is not counted anywhere in Govts. But storing EVMs will take more land.

So if Rs 200 cr is what EC says, add the hidden costs of extra man days lost in trainning , cost of storing at district level, cost of land etc. There is NO saving but increase in expenses.

Between Rahul Mehta's calculation and EC, I will trust the EC, thank you even if they are wrong by a factor 5.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 16:18

To fill in some missing links in your theory, please answer the following:

1. How many rigged BUs were made? (minimum, typical, maximum)
2. Where were they made? In India, or abroad?
3. In what time frame they were made?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 16:56

Dileep wrote:To fill in some missing links in your theory, please answer the following:

1. How many rigged BUs were made? (minimum, typical, maximum)
2. Where were they made? In India, or abroad?
3. In what time frame they were made?

1. 20,000 < N < 100,000

Each BU gets 400 extra votes to Congress.

If 20000 BUs go to 400 seats, each seat gets 50 BUs. So Congress got 20,000 extra votes in 400 seats. Enough to add 100 seats.

If 40000 BUs go to 400 seats, each seat gets 100 BUs. So Congress got 40,000 extra votes in 400 seats. Enough to add 150 seats.

IMO, 20000 BUs are enough to add 100 seats. So I would rig 30000 BUs. No point in taking more risk.

2. Abroad. Too risky to make such BUs in India. Congress had talent to get them made abroad. I know one Congress Minister owned an electronics company (where I did my summer training after 6th semester. I did a DSP project for them as trainee). The guy was from IIT and was absolute electronics genius cum coder. Maybe, he still *is* an electronics genius. They did very high tech PCB design for Military and Railways. Back then in 1989, he was not in politics but he had many elders who were MP, MLAs etc. Later he became MP and now he is Minister in Congress. I wont give his name as there is no point in giving his name. But my point is : Sonia has very high tech people around him who can tech geniuses. They can get such devices made abroad. And if Sonia recruited CIA in the game, CIA can get 20000 BUs made in 30 days.

3. Let me call CIA

Ok. I just spoke to them

The BUs were made sometime in Jan-2009. Or we need to know when Congress MP got the repair contract. Thats when he made BUs.

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The BUs can be replaced in CEC warehouse or during transit from BEL to any warehouse. 3 days before the truck starts, get all the details of the labels etc and in between replace the whole cargo in between. Who will notice 15 minutes of delay? Now if you say that cargo was guarded by SP level policeman --- boy your EVMs are not getting way too expensive. If this the level of security I need , the EVMs are costing more than Gold forget paper.

And if BEL is checking EVMs, some senior guy will select 10-20 out of 10000 EVMs random. So "ensure" that he selects only the good EVMs.

So all in all, few senior have to be rigged at placed like CEC, may be state CEOs etc. I dont need to rig too many middle level guys and too many junior guys.

.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 17:06

Dileep wrote:So, do you agree that the "replacement" has to happen at the district warehouse?

Why? If BEL dispatched them to CEC warehouse, replacement can happen at CEC warehouse. If BEL dispatched it to District warehouse directly, it can happen in transit.

You cant have an SP level officer guarding all the trucks. If they are putting safeguards everywhere, then there is NO savings. The safeguards are not free --- following the procedures require staff and time and so there is cost. So EC cant guard EVM like Gold all the time and everywhere. The person who wants to replace BU will see the whole /path of BU from BEL factory to District warehouse and pick a place.

The CEC don't appoint the CEO. The state does. The current CEO of Kerala is appointed by the commie govt.

In that case, Congress ruled CEOs' co-operation is guaranteed - AP, MH, RJ, Delhi etc. And TN CEO will also co-operate.

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Tanaji,

Do you oppose increasing deposits? Do you want deposit to be Rs 1000 then? If you are cursing my stand on deposit, pls make YOUR stand clear on the deposit issue first.

And there is whole thread to discuss JurySys and RTI. I have showed there how corrupt judges are and how useless RTI is. We can discuss it there.

.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 17:24

So, you claim some factory abroad has produced 20,000 BUs in a time frame of 30 days. How do you propose to bring them into the country? Each unit, including packing would be 1 cuft. A standard 40 ft container is 2670 cuft. So, this will be 8 containers full.

How are you going to import it? You can't drop if off somewhere on the shore.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 17:35

Rahul Mehta wrote:The person who wants to replace BU will see the whole /path of BU from BEL factory to District warehouse and pick a place.

You can't simply take out the pallets and put the pre-wrapped pallets back on the truck. The CUs and BUs are shipped paired in a shipping container. You need to open each and every box, take out the BU carry case and replace it in the bigger box. Going to take a lot of time, and you need a place.

Now, there is this little detail of matching serial numbers. How do you match the serial number of the rigged BU to that of the BU it is replacing?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 17:51

The BUs came in Jan-2009. And so they were new. And elections were starting in April-2009. No time and no need to do inspection. If "random" sample was chosen, randomization will be 1-2 guys at top, and they picked only the right ones. So the junior staff only got the good BUs and certified them.

Please provide a reference which states inspections are not done for such EVMs. The rule is that ECIL/BEL will inspect *all* EVMs regardless. So now you are saying that there is someone sitting at the "top" that keeps a track of all the 100000 EVMs. So the moment a ECIL engineer asks for a EVM the senior guy runs around to get a genuine EVM. Or the ECIL guys are bribed by them as well.

The BUs were made sometime in Jan-2009. Or we need to know when Congress MP got the repair contract. Thats when he made BUs.

Ok, so now we are no longer in the business of seeing whether it is theoretically possible or not. You are now asserting that Chawla, the evil evil CIA guy has already replaced the EVMs and that is how Congress won. So evil evil Chawla and another 100 people or so came together and put "RF interface" on CU or BU by soldering desoldering the stuff, or replaced the cable or whatever your latest technical jargon du jour is.... And then they all came together and undid all this by replacing the bad ones with good ones. For all this, they used hundreds of crores and evil evil Chawla handled the money laundering operation along with the CIA. Evil Evil Chawla also somehow has already managed to find people to activate the EVMs during polls who were on voter lists.

Of course, its possible in RahulWorld.... the land where logic, physics and mathematics dont apply.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 17:55

Do you oppose increasing deposits? Do you want deposit to be Rs 1000 then? If you are cursing my stand on deposit, pls make YOUR stand clear on the deposit issue first.

And there is whole thread to discuss JurySys and RTI. I have showed there how corrupt judges are and how useless RTI is. We can discuss it there.

I am just pointing to everyone how clearly your stand lines up with what every Neta wants:

Lesser number of independents contesting the election due to higher deposit so that they have a chance of the vote
Reduced transparency and more corruption because of the opposition to RTI. Netas know RTI can uncover inconvenient truths
More delays in judiciary because of jury system, so that neta can bribe just one juror , expose him and demand mistrial.
Opposition to EVM since they are difficult to game

Thats a wonderful alignment of your agenda with that of a corrupt Neta and is every Neta's dream come true. Your slips are showing up Rahul, Tsk, tsk....

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 17:59

he BUs can be replaced in CEC warehouse or during transit from BEL to any warehouse. 3 days before the truck starts, get all the details of the labels etc and in between replace the whole cargo in between. Who will notice 15 minutes of delay?

So now you have truck drivers in the conspiracy also?

Is there no one that is honest? Oh wait, it is Rahul Mehta, ...

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2009 18:45

My only concern is that the almighty, all knowing Chawla now knows that Rahul Mehta knows.

Be afraid Rahul, be VERY afraid!!

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 20:00

Dileep wrote:Now, there is this little detail of matching serial numbers. How do you match the serial number of the rigged BU to that of the BU it is replacing?

CEC Chawala will have all the serial numbers with him. And so will will top guy BEL. And a clerk in BEL can be bribed to get this data. So the rigged BU will come with CU key and serial numbers and all the labels. You need some mole in BEL or the warehouse which is dispatching EVMs.

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Btw, I have increased the rank of (BU + CU) replacement theory. In the beginning, I wanted to make the theory inquiry -proof. But later I realized that inquiry are scare crows. SCjs can be asked to appoint auditors who will be pro-Congress and so they will only examine good EVMs and not bad ones. So if some 50,000 EVMs are bad and rest 650,000 EVMs are good, auditors will examine some 1000 of the good ones only. So bad ones can stay in district warehouse can be used once again in next election. So why even bother replacing bad EVMs?

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Tanaji,

Have you seen policemen changing "evidences" in evidence storage rooms? They do it in open daylight. Once SP clears it and asks the storekeeper to do it, the local store keeper, who is of Head Constable or ASI rank will gladly comply. What goes of his father? The small guys dont bother much when order comes from big guys. And if they do, they lose their job very fast.

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(Aside : When election started, I expected congress's vote share to decrease from 23% in 2004 to 20% due to price rise etc. Later, when Varun Gandhi was shown 24*7, I thought that if all muslims vote for Congress. Then it was clear that MNS will make all UPites in Mumbai vote for Congress. Plus events in other states gave pro-Congress indications. So I thought Congress may get 25%. But against all odds, Congress got 29% votes. As if people love price rise !! These 4% extra votes translate into 1.7 cr votes. Now if one rigged EVM fetches 600 extra votes, then 1.7 cr extra votes would need some 30,000 rigged EVMs. So my rough guess is that about 30,000 EVMs out of 700,000 are rigged. This is just a rough idea I am giving. The number of seats are not issue , but increase in Congress vote share is. Congress's rule was horrible, and yet vote share increased. This discrepancy can be best explained by "EVM replacement" theory.)

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 20:07

Have you seen policemen changing "evidences" in evidence storage rooms? They do it in open daylight. Once SP clears it and asks the storekeeper to do it, the local store keeper, who is of Head Constable or ASI rank will gladly comply. What goes of his father? The small guys dont bother much when order comes from big guys. And if they do, they lose their job very fast.

Evidence in locker room is not the same as replacing EVMs. For one thing, even per your own admission (or at least it was on some page, you keep changing your theories so much its hard to keep track) not every one is in on the scam. So, its not that easy to swap EVMs. Secondly is the little matter of the senior person keeping track of what is being replaced in when BEL/ECIL comes in. Thirdly you still havent gotten around how a bulky "RF interface" fits into the EVM

Slightly OT but:

http://www.icnnd.org/latest/research/Ja ... ng_NC2.pdf

Why not read through this. If you ignore the psy-ops of India - Pak thing it indicates how even in a rigid environment as the military subordinates ignore established procedures even in cases of monitoring nuclear launches. So, your theory of little guys meekly obeying big guys 100% of the time is invalid. There is also Murphy's law ..

In short, RahulWord is good, it ignores all physical laws , hence in RahulWorld EVMs are corrupted. In practice, its a different story.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 20:44

Tanaji wrote:Ok, so now we are no longer in the business of seeing whether it is theoretically possible or not. You are now asserting that Chawla, the evil evil CIA guy has already replaced the EVMs and that is how Congress won. So evil evil Chawla and another 100 people or so came together and put "RF interface" on CU or BU by soldering desoldering the stuff, or replaced the cable or whatever your latest technical jargon du jour is.... And then they all came together and undid all this by replacing the bad ones with good ones. For all this, they used hundreds of crores and evil evil Chawla handled the money laundering operation along with the CIA. Evil Evil Chawla also somehow has already managed to find people to activate the EVMs during polls who were on voter lists. .

There is NO soldering or desoldering. The EVMs (BU or CU or both) were replaced with real ones.

And where did I talk of money laundering? And why would CIA charge MMS or Sonia for such a small favor, given that MMS has been such a good US puppy?

And when did I say that Chawala or Congress used voters to activate rigging in EVM? If rigged EVM has RF, why do you need a voter to physically touch EVM? Activation can be done from distance.

You are adding lines in my theory and just blabbering.

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Dileep,

Chawala wont bother even if whole India knows. eg whole India knows that SC-Cj Khare gave bail to two pedophiles and helped them to flee from India. Whole India knows that HCjs reduced Nanda sentence for a bribe. Whole India knows that US gave bribes to Indian MPs to get confidence motion passed in Jul-2008 to get Nuclear Deal signed. Whole India saw Minister Dilipsingh Judeo taking bribe of Rs 900,000 (rupees nine lakhs only) on TV and making dialogue "paisaa khudaa to nahi, lekin khudaa ki kasam khudaa se kam bhi nahi"

. The CBI inquiry against him is still pending. So why would Chawala bother even if whole world knows? He made his buck, he will retire in US, spend life in posh villa. He wont mind my knowing and whole world knowing.

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Re : checking of EVM by BEL staff people.

What do they check? They just check that EVM is working or do they open whole of EVM and do X-ray scan of PCB? Or even hand lens scan? What exactly does checking involve? If all they do is user level testing, well, rigged EVMs *will* work. And if they are ripping apart all EVMs and doing even hand lens examination, how many guys do they deploy to test all EVMs in say 6 months?

If a team of 2 guys tests 30 EVMs in one day, and the guys cost Rs 1500 a day each to BEL or EC, you are spending Rs 3000/30 = Rs 100 on test alone. And to test 700,000 EVMs in 180 days, you will need 700,000/30*60 = 700,000/1800 = about 400 people. They will need to travel all over India. Add travel and lodging costs, and their time wasted away in travel. So cost of test is at least Rs 200 per test.

Your EVM costs Rs 10000 per booth, good for 10 elections at most and thus Rs 1000 per booth per election. If I count 7% interest per year, or 14% between two elections, cost is over Rs 1500 per booth per election. Add storage cost and land cost to build warehouse. Plus guards to guard the EVMs. The ballots are guarded only for a few months after poll ends, but EVMs have to be guarded all the time. So guarding cost for EVMs is higher. The training cost is at least Rs 1500 per booth more than paper. And now we have small increase of testing by Rs 200 per election per booth. Next, you guys are proposing full audits of scanning chips to ensure that there is no extra microcode and full audit of PCB to rule out presence of RF. Next you want more safeguards to ensure that BU, CU etc can get rigged in future. As tech becomes more complex and ways to rig increase, number of safeguards will increase. And that will add costs. So, whereTH is savings.

My rustic brain says that if a hitech automatic way is to be used once every 2 years only, automation-way costs exceeds manual-way cost. And looks like my rustic brain is correct.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2009 20:50

Okie your activation by rf id theory might be plausibile, one way to prevent EVM BU/CU from receiving/transmitting any RF waves is by wrapping the machinery inside using shielding mesh. The Shielding mesh is made of a copper/silver and blocks different wavelengths using different sizes of interwoven meshes

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 20:54

I am not changing theoies. There are distinct theories and I am keeping all of them ranking them in terms of personnel needed. Thats the only criteria, and of course the proposed rigged equipment should be feasible by today's tech.

Tanaji wrote:how a bulky "RF interface" fits into the EVM

RF interfaces to exchange few bytes over 30 meters are not bulky. The sender (equipment to be used by field agent) may be bulky. But the one on EVM will be very miniature.

eg RFID chips are just a few mm by mm. And they can do BOTH send and receive a few bytes over few meters. Now proposed RF interface in EVM has NOTHING to do with "ID" and I am not saying that they use RFID. But what I mean is that the tech used by RFID to send/receive few bytes over few meters is miniature. And same tech can be deployed in rigged EVM to receive few bytes over RF. In fact,EVM need not send anything back. It has to only receive the candidate number and activation key -- just 2-4 bytes. So if it is receive-only, it does not need a large area or power.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 21:01

suryag wrote:
1. Okie your activation by rf id theory might be plausibile,

2. one way to prevent EVM BU/CU from receiving/transmitting any RF waves is by wrapping the machinery inside using shielding mesh. The Shielding mesh is made of a copper/silver and blocks different wavelengths using different sizes of interwoven meshes

1. Thanks. Just nitpicking, it is NOT "ID". I am merely using the tech used by RFIDs. Otherwise, there is no ID in RF I propose. Also, RFID do both , receive and send. The proposed RF in EVM do only receive, no send. So they are simpler and smaller.

2. A small pour in mesh will let the RF pass. Pls note : RF in EVM is only a receiver. It never sends any data back. And data transmitted is just 10 bytes -- 5 bytes for activation, one byte for candidate number, 4 bytes for date-time to start rigging. And so a powerful signal coming from 30 m will pass thru a small pour in mesh.

3. And the mesh is increasing the cost. So where is the savings compared to paper?.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 23 Jul 2009 21:12

Suryag:

Do you really think there will be CIA agents running around in 700 000 polling booths activating the thingy, even if by defying most physical laws, such an interface were to be on the EVM?

Rahul Mehta's hyper ventilations not withstanding, open up the back of your cordless phone sometime, and look at the complexity involved. The so called "RF interface" in BU will require relays to work and some sort of circuitry to detect and transform the signals from key presses. Rahul Mehta is using juxtaposition to claim its possible: he says its not RFID, but claims the circuitry required and the power required is the same, when in fact they are orders of magnitude greater.

Dileep does hardware manufacturing for a living. I have experience in actual engineering as well. Raja Bose is a PhD in related matters. Dont trust me, but at least take into consideration when these folks put their opinion, as opposed to Rahul who spouts of techno babble that has mathematically been proven to be incorrect or something that has been proven that he has no clue of.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2009 22:39

No Tanaji - I was trying to take the wind out or RM's imaginary sails. I work in the wireless industry and I deal with these rf/pa/crystal oscillator components on an hourly basis, right from the beginning i knew that RM was spouting totally junk ideas and was simply involved in hit and run. What i was trying to say was that you can insulate an rf transceiver from receiving/transmitting any rf emission by putting them in these gauze type structures. The circuitry in passive rf id can be activated from only a few yards and definitely not 20-30m. Next i might hear that RM proposes a CIA op could go and while voting poke a hole on the mesh which is inside the plastic box, or he can even pull up this theory that the copper/silver supplied for making these meshes could be tampered by CIA.

Btw, I have never doubted Dileep ji, Bose Babu or your knowledge on these areas.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Jul 2009 22:45

Tanaji wrote:Suryag:

Do you really think there will be CIA agents running around in 700 000 polling booths activating the thingy, even if by defying most physical laws, such an interface were to be on the EVM?

The RF in CU or BU was NOT activated in booths, but at 550 district warehouses. All EVMs are are district warehouse some 10 days before poll. So by sending one strong radio signals to ALL EVMs in district warehouse some 10 meters from room storing EVMs, all of them can be activated in one go. If activation is by key punch on BU, then only I need to go from booth to booth. Otherwise, I dont need to even visit even one booth. AFAIS, Tanaji is only mixing booth with RF to create a mess.

The so called "RF interface" in BU will require relays to work and some sort of circuitry to detect and transform the signals from key presses. Rahul Mehta is using juxtaposition to claim its possible: he says its not RFID, but claims the circuitry required and the power required is the same, when in fact they are orders of magnitude greater.

I am using same tech that RFID uses to receive data, not RFID tags. The RF interface is used sometime before poll starts. It is used to transfer candidate number to the CPU inside BU, which it will store in some memory. How much power is needed to keep 8 bytes of information for 30 days? And I explained that rigged BU will have CPU etc to fake the candidate numbers. The rigged BU is full intelligent machine, not a dumb matrix.

And btw, RF is CU is possible. The CU has tons of circuits, power, flash RAM and everything. The only drawback in "RF in CU" theory is that when this rigged CU is replaced back with real CU, the real CU may not have exact data or may have zero data. That is non-issue, because CU cant be touched without court order. And one in million chance that some CU is accessed and it has zero data --- once can give N technical reasons to explain why data in a few EVMs vanished after 60 days. After all, all devices show some glitches sometime. And SCjs will never ever appoint an honest committee which will ever touch a bad CU. So the bad CU can stay intact in warehouse, ready to be used in the next election.

So both, "RF in CU" theory and "RF in BU theory" are there. If "RF in BU" is technologically infeasible, then one can go with "RF in CU" theory. That does not create any major problem.

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A lot of complexity in theories came because Dileep claimed that "if 10% of EVMs in warehouse are rigged, an audit would find it". But once you dismiss this "honest audit" deterrence as comedy or scare crow and accept the fact ( FACT = auditors will deliberately skip rigged EVMs and touch only good EVMs), whole EVM can replaced - both CU and BU. And never bother to replace back. So there is no technical infeasibility now in "RF in CU" theory either.

And you keep confusing RF with RF on cell phones which has to send/receive data to a tower several km away. I am talking of RF that can just receive data from 30 m. That does NOT need any power source.

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Dileep does hardware manufacturing for a living. I have experience in actual engineering as well. Raja Bose is a PhD in related matters. Dont trust me, but at least take into consideration when these folks put their opinion, as opposed to Rahul who spouts of techno babble that has mathematically been proven to be incorrect or something that has been proven that he has no clue of.

The part in bold is the only wise thing you said in this whole thread.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2009 22:56

So you diss everything auditing, judges Tanaji, dileep and of course I. Doesnt this make you the greatest nihilist ever to have walked on earth. For starters please tell me which band would your great "rf devices" be working on??

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Jul 2009 22:59

RM-ji,

Seriously please read up on Antenna theory, associated physics and power requirements before going on and on about "only" 30 meters distance. In fact if you invent a RFID tag which is tiny (incld. antenna, power src etc.) and can RX/TX reliably with a small handheld unit from 30 meters, please let GE Research and GE Asset Intelligence know - those poor sods have been slogging their musharrafs off in pursuit of this dream.

BTW perhaps something of interest to you (though Wikipedia is an open tool hence has been subverted by CIA - in fact I suspect Jimmy Wales is a CIA plant coz during one of his talks I heard him mutter "EVMs...the horror....the horror"):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rfid#Miniaturization

RFID tags can be highly miniaturized, which makes it easy to conceal or incorporate them in other items. For example, in 2009 researchers at Bristol University successfully glued RFID microtransponders to live ants in order to study their behavior.[5] This trend towards increasingly miniaturized RFID is likely to continue as technology advances, however the ability to read at distance is limited by the inverse square law of physics - so the smaller an antenna becomes the shorter the read range.

Hitachi holds the record for the smallest RFID chip, at 0.05mm x 0.05mm. The Mu chip tags are 64 times smaller than the new RFID tags.[6] Manufacture is enabled by using the Silicon-on-Insulator (SOI) process. These "dust" sized chips can store 38-digit numbers using 128-bit Read Only Memory (ROM).[7] A major challenge is the attachment of the antennas, thus limiting read range to only milimeters.

Now do you understand the words that were coming out of my mouth?