Should we discontinue EVMs?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2009 23:01

^^^ only milimeters

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 06:35

Repeating the un answered points:

1. You need a relay matrix to tap and control the keypad interface. You need 32 relays, each drawing 5-10mA.
2. You need a microcontroller to implement the decode and activation logic.
3. You need a cell phone size antenna to receive the signals.
4. You need a 2000aH battery to drive the thing.

A small RFID type chip can of course receive the data, but who is going to process and act upon it?

Together your "bug" in the CU is going to be rather big. The smallest micro-relays are 10 X 5 mm. It will take a PCB of size 8cm X 10cm, just to hold them. The total PCB size will be at least 8cm X 12 cm.It is not likely to fit in the BU dimensions.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 06:36

Rahul, you have not answered the trivial question of how the 8 container loads will be imported to India?

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Jul 2009 07:02

Together your "bug" in the CU is going to be rather big

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jul 2009 07:08

RM ji, it might be more fruitful to explore the maintenance contract angle, instead of the EC warehouse angle. Apparently, maintenance contracts are being steered towards Congress companies.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 07:15

Yes, We need to find out what exactly is this "maintenance" involved, where it is done, and what are the security measures and procedures involved.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jul 2009 07:22

Assuming that EVM rigging will become a routine element of the political landscape in the years to come, it is interesting to ask what the political scene will look like in such circumstances. Will EVM rigging necessarily lead to the complete dominance of the Congress party?

IMHO, that is not likely - in a political system with a democratic facade, it is always helpful to create an appearance of bipolarity.

Thus, in the US, we have the Democrats and Republicans. As far as the plutocrats are concerned, it doesn't really matter whether Hillary or Obama or GW Bush is the president - their show will go on.

For these reasons, it is unlikely that the BJP will be wiped out. However, as of now, the BJP as of now is not fully tamed and domesticated. It still has troublesome people like Arun Shourie.

So the way to go will be to gradually permit only those elements of the BJP to win, who accept the dominance of the global elite. Troublesome people like Modi or Shourie will be gradually eased out. Over a period of years, the BJP will become domesticated. At that point, it can be allowed to win again. The Indian people will then have before them the necessary spectacle of two parties apparently competing with each other.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 07:53

It is a ridiculous idea that one party can control another by rigging the EVMs.

Anything that involves a number of people is going to come out at some point of time. You can't cover up things. Even under the emergency, where there was strict censorship of media, stuff came out.

Look at the number and type of people that need to co-opt to pull of the RahulErios:

1. CEC Chawla. Some 20 people in his office, from his OSD to peon
2. 300 district collectors, and 10 people in his office, from ADC to peon
3. 500 sub collectors/ADMs who actually own the EVMs, and four staff of theirs
4. 500 truck drivers and their assistants(cleaner)
5. 500 sets of labourers, 4 in a team.

That is over 8000 people involved in the scam. This is excluding the sundry facilitators like checkpost officers, police, chaiwale etc.

You are showing pakiness, or Pontingness. You want to blame your failure on everything else.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 08:30

Raja Bose, Suryag,

In RFID, one issue is to send the ID over RF, and that what makes passive tags low range. Receiving requires very tiny antenna if the sender is powerful and only 20m to 30 m away. In RFID , the chip receives as well as sends data. When RFID people talk of range, they take minimum of two ranges - sending and receiving. And sending is always smaller. In proposed rigged EVM, the EVM only receives data, it is not sending anything. So the range is larger than RFID chip even if same tech is used.

---

Dileep,

Dileep wrote:Repeating the un answered points:

1. You need a relay matrix to tap and control the keypad interface. You need 32 relays, each drawing 5-10mA.
2. You need a microcontroller to implement the decode and activation logic.
3. You need a cell phone size antenna to receive the signals.
4. You need a 2000aH battery to drive the thing.

A small RFID type chip can of course receive the data, but who is going to process and act upon it?

Together your "bug" in the CU is going to be rather big. The smallest micro-relays are 10 X 5 mm. It will take a PCB of size 8cm X 10cm, just to hold them. The total PCB size will be at least 8cm X 12 cm.It is not likely to fit in the BU dimensions.

Which of the two sentences in bold in your post do I take?

And consider you point that rigged EVM would need at least cell phone sized antenna . That would make EVM accept data from a km like a cell phone. I dont need such long distance connectivity and so I dont need such large antenna. The sender can be as big as a suitcase or even something that fits in a van. And the receiver in EVM is say 30 m away. So what is the smallest sqcm area needed in receiver to put the antenna? I will get exact answer and get back you. But doesnt have to be as bug as cell phone as you say.

You guys keep comparing proposed RF with commercial RF which do both send-receive. In most commercial applications, sending is must. At least, you need ACK to ensure that the chip received. Not here.

The objections 1,2, 4 make "RF in BU" difficult. But CU already has battery, micro-controller etc. And it does not need to tap keyboard. So the RF unit can be on PCB and be connected to existing micro controller. The RF unit get the byes, raises interrupt like any IO device and micro-controller gets the bytes which has candidate number.

----

Dileep wrote:Rahul, you have not answered the trivial question of how the 8 container loads will be imported to India?

How do naxals import AK-47 into India? If naxals can get 1000s of AK47 into India, YSR, Chawala, MMS and Rajmata can get 1000s of EVMs into AP. They can tell the local IPS and customs not to bother when some ship comes. Local IPS and customs are used to get such orders from CM, FinMin, HomeMin. They would think that it is just some usual consignment carrying weapons or drugs which is routine. They would not know or even suspect that EVMs are coming.

---

Pranav, All,

If trojan in CU has to be activated by entering keys in BU, then the local MP candidate's participation would be needed or you need some highly motivated persons like mullah(*) in the loop. That MP or mullah has to be told to send 100 volunteers, each to one booth and press keys.

So say Congress MP Rajagopal rigged 40000 CU's code. Or, CEC replaced 40000 EVMs manufactured by CIA with real EVMs.

Say the rigged EVM's CU has code : when activation key comes, take last key as Congress candidate number and add 600 votes to him.

Now these 40000 EVMs were sent to 400 LS seats.

Now one has to contact mullah or MP or someone has to send 100 volunteers to these 100 booths. The duplicate EC cards are easy to forge. The presiding officers were explicitly told that "if a person comes with card, and even if photo does not match with his face, let him vote". Thats because too many cards have wrong photo (eg my own card has my father's pix). So the volunteer need not be a voter in that booth. He can even be a Bangladeshi with a voter card of a voter in the booth. You can forge a voter card or for Rs 200, you can even buy a voter card from a voter who does not wish to vote. But someone needs to send 100 volunteers to 100 booths in that LS.

Each seat gets 100*600 = 60,000 extra votes
Total, congress gets 60,000*400 = 2.4 cr extra votes = 5.6% of polled votes

So in "Rigged CU, keyboard interface" theory, we need MP or local mullah or someone to find 100 volunteers. If the volunteers are motivated, they would keep this a secret. And if not, who is going to listen to them or even believe them?

So keypad based activation needs 100 volunteers in each of the 400 seats. In case of RF, one can rig 100,000 EVMs. In non-RF ordinary keypad interface based rigging, it is restricted by number of volunteers, but 100 per seat is manageable for MP or mullahs.

----

(*) - I am using the word mullah only, and NOT mullah + missionary, because I dont want people to call me anti-Christian etc.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 08:45

Pranav wrote:RM ji, it might be more fruitful to explore the maintenance contract angle, instead of the EC warehouse angle. Apparently, maintenance contracts are being steered towards Congress companies.

Pranav,

I am not dismissing ANY angle. IMO, we should keep all possible ways into account.

I have taken Congress MP's contract into account.

One key issue is how one can give candidate number to rigged EVM. This is technical-manpower issue, and does not involve where rigged EVMs came from. The rigged EVMs can come from rigged chip or whole new CU or changing code in existing EVMs by maintenance company. That is one issue, but separate from "how rigged EVM got Congress candidate number".

I am writing article on how EVMs can be rigged on industrial scale. Lets say that today's tech cant make the RF based CU I am proposing. Then in the article, I will describe my proposed RF based CU and also mention that today's tech cannot build such CU, but can build a CU with twice the size. Why? Because tech after 5 years *may* be able to make RF based CU as small as existing CU. If that is the case, then also case against EVM is proven.

So I am keeping all angles open, including the fact that Congress MP Rajagopal rigged EVMs.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 09:04

Dileep wrote:It is a ridiculous idea that one party can control another by rigging the EVMs.

Anything that involves a number of people is going to come out at some point of time. You can't cover up things. Even under the emergency, where there was strict censorship of media, stuff came out.

Look at the number and type of people that need to co-opt to pull of the RahulErios:

1. CEC Chawla. Some 20 people in his office, from his OSD to peon
2. 300 district collectors, and 10 people in his office, from ADC to peon
3. 500 sub collectors/ADMs who actually own the EVMs, and four staff of theirs
4. 500 truck drivers and their assistants(cleaner)
5. 500 sets of labourers, 4 in a team.

That is over 8000 people involved in the scam. This is excluding the sundry facilitators like checkpost officers, police, chaiwale etc.

Dileep,

Your claims are too high.

In the first phase, when real EVMs are replaced by rigged EVMs, I dont need co-operation of 2, 3 in first phase.

And you estimate in 1. is too high. I dont need co-operation of peons.

3. is not true. The EVMs are in District headquarters, not with DC, not ADC.

And your estimate in 4. is way too high. You assume that every truck transfer had a different truck driver. Essentially, you are merely exaggerating and nothing else.

---

In first phase, when EVMs are replaced I need co-operation of few senior people per CEC warehouse. Thats all. The juniors will not dare to mutter. I need co-operation of DC plus 2 men in DC office ONLY to take rigged EVMs out and put real ones back in second phase. And I said, phase-II can be delayed or skipped. Chawala can let 60000 rigged EVMs sit in District warehouse. You need court order to touch them anyway. So the rigged EVMs are safe.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 09:15

Pranav wrote:Assuming that EVM rigging will become a routine element of the political landscape in the years to come, it is interesting to ask what the political scene will look like in such circumstances. Will EVM rigging necessarily lead to the complete dominance of the Congress party?

If anyone manages to put RF based EVMs (and since they will have the devices to send codes to EVM), they will decide the winners. And the winner need not be Congress all the time. All the EVM riggers needs to do is to pay "experts" to claim that EVMs are unriggable. And they need to conduct a full high profile audit over the good EVMs and leave the the bad ones intact. ToI is always there to make headlines that "NO EVMs was rigged" and throw words like "safeguards", "audits", "check and balance", "transparency" all over in the article. The rigged EVMs can be safe in store and be used for years to come.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 10:21

Rahul Mehta wrote:Which of the two sentences in bold in your post do I take?

BOTH. The chip itself is small, but you need a bigger antenna. In the second sentence I am asking about the rest of the circuitry which you are trying to ignore.

The small RFID claims you see have a large film antenna on the substrate. You can't make an antenna on the silicon chip in the frequencies that travel across walls.

And consider you point that rigged EVM would need at least cell phone sized antenna . That would make EVM accept data from a km like a cell phone. I dont need such long distance connectivity and so I dont need such large antenna. The sender can be as big as a suitcase or even something that fits in a van. And the receiver in EVM is say 30 m away. So what is the smallest sqcm area needed in receiver to put the antenna? I will get exact answer and get back you. But doesnt have to be as bug as cell phone as you say.

Well, get the technical information, and then we will talk.

You guys keep comparing proposed RF with commercial RF which do both send-receive. In most commercial applications, sending is must. At least, you need ACK to ensure that the chip received. Not here.

The objections 1,2, 4 make "RF in BU" difficult. But CU already has battery, micro-controller etc. And it does not need to tap keyboard. So the RF unit can be on PCB and be connected to existing micro controller. The RF unit get the byes, raises interrupt like any IO device and micro-controller gets the bytes which has candidate number.

Yes, it is possible to add an RF receiver onto the CU board. So, you can go back to the "CU Replacement Theory" again, ignoring all the "little details" that plague World Ver 1.0.

[/quote]
How do naxals import AK-47 into India? If naxals can get 1000s of AK47 into India, YSR, Chawala, MMS and Rajmata can get 1000s of EVMs into AP. They can tell the local IPS and customs not to bother when some ship comes. Local IPS and customs are used to get such orders from CM, FinMin, HomeMin. They would think that it is just some usual consignment carrying weapons or drugs which is routine. They would not know or even suspect that EVMs are coming.
[/quote]
naxals get the AKs in small batches over the land route from china. Are you proposing to send the EVMs like that?

The wink/nod for smuggling happens for physically smaller things, like one pallet full of drugs. You can't get eight 40 ft containers in, without the co-operation of the entire customs aparatus and the port authorities, which is impossible.

Now one has to contact mullah or MP or someone has to send 100 volunteers to these 100 booths. The duplicate EC cards are easy to forge. The presiding officers were explicitly told that "if a person comes with card, and even if photo does not match with his face, let him vote". Thats because too many cards have wrong photo (eg my own card has my father's pix). So the volunteer need not be a voter in that booth. He can even be a Bangladeshi with a voter card of a voter in the booth. You can forge a voter card or for Rs 200, you can even buy a voter card from a voter who does not wish to vote. But someone needs to send 100 volunteers to 100 booths in that LS.

The PO doesn't check id. The APOs do. The agents check the person with the photo in the voters list. So, this will not happen.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Jul 2009 10:49

Rahul Mehta wrote:In proposed rigged EVM, the EVM only receives data, it is not sending anything. So the range is larger than RFID chip even if same tech is used.
...
...
...
The sender can be as big as a suitcase or even something that fits in a van. And the receiver in EVM is say 30 m away. So what is the smallest sqcm area needed in receiver to put the antenna? I will get exact answer and get back you. But doesnt have to be as bug as cell phone as you say.

OK since now we have moved from handheld transceivers to van and suitcase-sized transceivers....why not place such transceivers in cellphone base stations? After all most cellphone base station equipment in India is either NSN or Motorola - both subverted by CIA...it is 'trivial' for them to 'hide' one more box in the base station. That way one unit can subvert multiple EVMs in its radius and no need for CIA agents to huff and puff around hot & dusty smelly turd-world voting booths no?

You guys keep comparing proposed RF with commercial RF which do both send-receive. In most commercial applications, sending is must. At least, you need ACK to ensure that the chip received. Not here.

You are talking about sending a precise instruction to the receiver...welcome to the real world RM ji!

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 11:30

Rahul Mehta wrote: Your claims are too high.

No. In fact I kept it conservative because of my wow to be honest.

In the first phase, when real EVMs are replaced by rigged EVMs, I dont need co-operation of 2, 3 in first phase.

False. The DEOs manage the EVMs. They don't keep it in their camp office. There will be an identified storage for the machines, and there will be his subordinates managing it for him. You need their co-operation

And you estimate in 1. is too high. I dont need co-operation of peons.

You do. Peons are the ones who know EVERYTHING in an office. If you try to do something without involving them, they won't rest till they find out why.

3. is not true. The EVMs are in District headquarters, not with DC, not ADC.

Are they kept stacked in the yard of the district headquarters? The DC is directly responsible to them. Since he won't (in fact, by the office rules, can't) do it in person, there will be a system, with a chain of people to manage it.

Don't you know that EVERY PAPERWORK is done by a clark, and EVERY PHYSICAL ACTION is done by a peon in an office? You are forbidden to byepass them. That is one of the bright ideas of Tottenham. So, in this case, the two keys will be under the ultimate responsibility of two clerks, and locked in a safe by the peon.

And your estimate in 4. is way too high. You assume that every truck transfer had a different truck driver. Essentially, you are merely exaggerating and nothing else.

No. One district HQ to have one truck, with one driver and one cleaner. That is conservative.

In first phase, when EVMs are replaced I need co-operation of few senior people per CEC warehouse. Thats all.

First of all, there is no such thing as the CEC warehouse. There is no such thing as the state CEO warehouse either. ALL storage is with the DEOs.

No. The senior people can do nothing at the warehouse. They wouldn't even know where the key is, and how to unlock the place. There is no way he or anyone else in the chain of command can demand "give me the key, I will take care of it". If you have the entire chain of command in confidence, you can get the key. Otherwise, the first "uncompromised" person is going to break the cover.

The juniors will not dare to mutter. I need co-operation of DC plus 2 men in DC office ONLY to take rigged EVMs out and put real ones back in second phase. And I said, phase-II can be delayed or skipped. Chawala can let 60000 rigged EVMs sit in District warehouse. You need court order to touch them anyway. So the rigged EVMs are safe.

That is IMPOSSIBLE. The DC needs the chain of command in confidence. Without that he is totally powerless.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 13:06

I am writing article on how EVMs can be rigged on industrial scale. Lets say that today's tech cant make the RF based CU I am proposing. Then in the article, I will describe my proposed RF based CU and also mention that today's tech cannot build such CU, but can build a CU with twice the size. Why? Because tech after 5 years *may* be able to make RF based CU as small as existing CU. If that is the case, then also case against EVM is proven.

You keep flip flopping and changing your stories quite often, but that is par for the course in RahulWorld. Just a few posts ago, you had claimed that evil evil Chawla along with CIA, Collectors office and other elements in EC had already swapped out some of the EVMs in Jan 2009 itself with RF interface. Now you are saying that it may not be technically possible to build such a device.

Which is it Rahul Mehtaji? Or as usual in RahulWorld, does both stories happen simultaneously like Schrödinger's cat?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 13:07

Dileep wrote:Yes, it is possible to add an RF receiver onto the CU board.

So let me get this, lest I am quoting you out of context.

IYO, can one make CU which is of same size as existing CU, looks same externally except small air gaps , and can take 10 bytes from RF signal from a suitcase size sender from 30 m distance?

---

Raja Bose,

The RF in EVM does NOT need to send ACK. And I did not "move" from handheld to suitcase size to van size sender. Right in the beginning I mentioned that "size of sender is non-issue as long as sender device can fit in a van". And the RF in EVM does NOT need to send an ACK. The sender will just send the data 100 times in 5 minutes. And out of 100-200 rigged BU, some 80% will get it and even if 20% dont, there is nothing I can do in field. So ACK adds no value if sending is technological mess. IOW, if sending ACK can be implemented, I will opt for that. Otherwise, I will settle for receive only.

1. naxals get the AKs in small batches over the land route from china. Are you proposing to send the EVMs like that?

2. The wink/nod for smuggling happens for physically smaller things, like one pallet full of drugs. You can't get eight 40 ft containers in, without the co-operation of the entire customs aparatus and the port authorities, which is impossible.

1. Naxals dont have PM and CM with them. Otherwise, they wont need to get AK in small chunks, they would import in trains. Here we are assuming from start that PM, CM, HomeMin etc have colluded. And all they need to do is to call local customs chief and local SP to ignore 1-2 ships. Such smuggling is routine. Now there are whole private ports, where customs officials dont even show up when told not to show up. If you were a customs officials of say level of SP, and HomeMin tells you to walk away, what you gonna do? Call ToI? You will just walk away. PERIOD. If you dont, 100 CBI inquiries will fall on your head. 2

2. The bribe goes up with size. Thats all. In fact, if you were customs officials, you will prefer 8 containers over one and prefer one container over small cargo. More money in less time. Or let me ask you : if you were a customs chief, would you prefer someone to smuggle 100 small cargo on 100 different days or smuggle 8 big containers in one day? You would prefer latter, as in former, money is coming in 100 small installments spread over 100 days and latter one big hafta comes on one day

. In fact, the customs chief must be calling the Minister each day "Sir, when are next 8 containers coming?"

. He is eagerly awaiting for 8 more shipment to come, as we type.

Now one has to contact mullah or MP or someone has to send 100 volunteers to these 100 booths. The duplicate EC cards are easy to forge. The presiding officers were explicitly told that "if a person comes with card, and even if photo does not match with his face, let him vote". Thats because too many cards have wrong photo (eg my own card has my father's pix). So the volunteer need not be a voter in that booth. He can even be a Bangladeshi with a voter card of a voter in the booth. You can forge a voter card or for Rs 200, you can even buy a voter card from a voter who does not wish to vote. But someone needs to send 100 volunteers to 100 booths in that LS.
The PO doesn't check id. The APOs do. The agents check the person with the photo in the voters list. So, this will not happen.

Dilip,

In Gujarat and all over India, unofficially ALL booth people were TOLD by DCs not to bother about pix on the ID. There are many IDs of wife with hubby photo and hubby ID with wife's photo. The collector office is flooded with complains. DoB is also wrong in too many cases. As I told you, my own ID has my father's pix. If APO or PO had started rejecting people whose face doesnt match with photo on ID, there will be too much ruckus on every booth.

So if Congress MP or Mullah sends say 100-200 of his volunteers, with any photo IDs which are valid in that booth, PO or APO would let them press the password on BU. The MP will have to pay Rs 500 to the volunteer. And Mullah can promise 3.6 virgins in heaven (72 for death, 5% of that for such small task). Missionaries will never do such dirty work, and so I dont think any missionary asked his volunteer to go to booth to pressed passkeys. But getting 200 volunteers does not seem a difficult task.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 13:10

Suryag:

Apologies... I thought you were falling prey to RahulWorld

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 13:14

Rahul Mehta wrote: So let me get this, lest I am quoting you out of context.

IYO, can one make CU which is of same size as existing CU, looks same externally except small air gaps , and can take 10 bytes from RF signal from a suitcase size sender from 30 m distance?

Yes, it can be done.

1. Naxals dont have PM and CM with them. Otherwise, they wont need to get AK in small chunks, they would import in trains. Here we are assuming from start that PM, CM, HomeMin etc have colluded. And all they need to do is to call local customs chief and local SP to ignore 1-2 ships. Such smuggling is routine. Now there are whole private ports, where customs officials dont even show up when told not to show up. If you were a customs officials of say level of SP, and HomeMin tells you to walk away, what you gonna do? Call ToI? You will just walk away. PERIOD. If you dont, 100 CBI inquiries will fall on your head. 2

2. The bribe goes up with size. Thats all. In fact, if you were customs officials, you will prefer 8 containers over one and prefer one container over small cargo. More money in less time. Or let me ask you : if you were a customs chief, would you prefer someone to smuggle 100 small cargo on 100 different days or smuggle 8 big containers in one day? You would prefer latter, as in former, money is coming in 100 small installments spread over 100 days and latter one big hafta comes on one day . In fact, the customs chief must be calling the Minister each day "Sir, when are next 8 containers coming?" . He is eagerly awaiting for 8 more shipment to come, as we type.

The point is, the number of people who need to co-operate goes exponentially up with such operations. And you will need to show SOME paperwork as well.

In Gujarat and all over India, unofficially ALL booth people were TOLD by DCs not to bother about pix on the ID. There are many IDs of wife with hubby photo and hubby ID with wife's photo. The collector office is flooded with complains. DoB is also wrong in too many cases. As I told you, my own ID has my father's pix. If APO or PO had started rejecting people whose face doesnt match with photo on ID, there will be too much ruckus on every booth.

So if Congress MP or Mullah sends say 100-200 of his volunteers, with any photo IDs which are valid in that booth, PO or APO would let them press the password on BU. The MP will have to pay Rs 500 to the volunteer. And Mullah can promise 3.6 virgins in heaven (72 for death, 5% of that for such small task). Missionaries will never do such dirty work, and so I dont think any missionary asked his volunteer to go to booth to pressed passkeys. But getting 200 volunteers does not seem a difficult task.

Sure. If the agents know the person, then photos may be ignored. If an unknown person comes, photo doesn't match, then he won't be allowed to vote for sure.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 13:16

The RF in EVM does NOT need to send ACK. And I did not "move" from handheld to suitcase size to van size sender. Right in the beginning I mentioned that "size of sender is non-issue as long as sender device can fit in a van".

So how many such vans will be there full of CIA agents? They will be criss crossing the country activating the EVMs then?

. Here we are assuming from start that PM, CM, HomeMin etc have colluded.

But , but then the system has already been subverted. When you have the PM, CM and EC in your pocket, and as per you the SC judges are corrupt, then there is nothing left to defend. There is no need to rig the EVM at all. You have just scored a self goal!

BTW have you noticed your number of people in the scam just keeps on increasing monotonically?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 13:19

Rahul Mehta wrote:
So let me get this, lest I am quoting you out of context.

IYO, can one make CU which is of same size as existing CU, looks same externally except small air gaps , and can take 10 bytes from RF signal from a suitcase size sender from 30 m distance?
Yes, it can be done.

Er, Dileep, we havent seen the innards of the CU yet... No idea where his "RF interface " will fit or can be interfaced without putting in a lot of bulky hardware. Or maybe perhaps you are implying a complete redesign?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 13:28

Tanaji wrote: Er, Dileep, we havent seen the innards of the CU yet... No idea where his "RF interface " will fit or can be interfaced without putting in a lot of bulky hardware. Or maybe perhaps you are implying a complete redesign?

Yes, a complete re-design of the board will be involved. But if you are making a new CU, you have to re-do the PCB anyway. You can incorporate a cellphone radio module, or a WIFI module into the PCB. It wouldn't take too much space

But the problem will be, it would be readily identified as a fake if someone opens it. It is not like duplicating the CU, with just the controller having a different program. That is difficult to visually identify (though PCBs made by different vendors always look different, and it is tough to match components). But if you make a new board, it would be readily identified.

If one unit gets identified as fake, all hell break loose, and heads roll.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 13:46

Tanaji wrote:
The RF in EVM does NOT need to send ACK. And I did not "move" from handheld to suitcase size to van size sender. Right in the beginning I mentioned that "size of sender is non-issue as long as sender device can fit in a van".
So how many such vans will be there full of CIA agents? They will be criss crossing the country activating the EVMs then?

10 vans are enough. One van goes to one district warehouse, activates all EVMs there, and goes to another district. 3 LS seats day. So in 20 days, one van can cover 60 LS seats. To cover 300 seats, 5 vans is low ball. 10 is sufficient.

-----------

. Here we are assuming from start that PM, CM, HomeMin etc have colluded.

But , but then the system has already been subverted. When you have the PM, CM and EC in your pocket, and as per you the SC judges are corrupt, then there is nothing left to defend. There is no need to rig the EVM at all. You have just scored a self goal!

BTW have you noticed your number of people in the scam just keeps on increasing monotonically?[/quote]

There is need to rig EVMs because small parties are not all under control. And Congress is better than BJP. BJP leaders have sold out, but BJP MPs are under influence of cadre who are not under CIA control. Ditto with CPM, the CPM MPs have sold out, but cadres oppose US goals (like nuclear deal). Whereas Congress has no cadre, and so all Congress leaders are "free". So US would prefer Congress MPs over BJP over CPM.

And missionaries wanted Congress at any cost.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 13:52

Who makes PCBs of CUs?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 14:31

Rahul Mehta wrote:Who makes PCBs of CUs?

Most probably AT&S Nanjangud.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 14:43

Rahul Mehta wrote:Who makes PCBs of CUs?

In RahulWorld , CIA in association with his MP friend.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 14:47

So, we are adding more people into the equation. An entire customs establishment of a port, the dock labour pool, trucks, people at the excise checkpost, tax checkpost etc.

Let us see, once again the vapour pillars on which the RM castle stands:

1. Some one manufactures EXACT replicas of the EVM outside India. Within India, it is not possible, as RM himself admits
2. 8 to 16 container load of those machines are imported into some port that can handle containers, after compromising an entire team under an Asst Commissioner and dock labour pool (which btw is unionized, and have members from all unions)
3. Said containers are trucked out of the port into warehouses all over the country, after compromising all the excise and sales tax checkposts en route.
4. When a shipment leaves BEL, as informed by the BEL shipping clerk, the serial numbers are engraved on the boxes. They are carefully opened, engraved, and then re-packed, using a large labour pool that is compromised.
5. The shipment comes to the warehouse, to swap the boxes. It then gets delivered to the District warehouse.
6. If it is RF bugged BU, someone comes with a transmitter to program the BU. CUs can work RF only when powered ON, so won't work in the warehouse.
7. RF Bugged CUs are programmed at the booth by an army of 1000 agents, without raising suspicion of anyone.
8. The rigged machines go through counting, and to the warehouse with armed guards.
9. With the help of 6000 compromised government servants, the bad guys access the warehouse in 5-10 nights to replace the rigged units with the good units. With CUs, the counts are programmed into them by an army of 50 compromised people per constituency.

And no one, out of around 15000 people talks!!

Pretty reliable castle ain't it? Bulletproof!! Heck, even a Brahmos can't do nothing to it!!

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 14:53

But, you left out the important bit:

The PM, the CM, Home Minister and various MPs are into the conspiracy as well as per Rahul:

Here we are assuming from start that PM, CM, HomeMin etc have colluded.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 16:26

Who is ATS and Nanjangud? GoI company? Or private company?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 16:38

Dileep wrote:So, we are adding more people into the equation. An entire customs establishment of a port, the dock labour pool, trucks, people at the excise checkpost, tax checkpost etc.

Let us see, once again the vapour pillars on which the RM castle stands:

1. Some one manufactures EXACT replicas of the EVM outside India. Within India, it is not possible, as RM himself admits

2. 8 to 16 container load of those machines are imported into some port that can handle containers, after compromising an entire team under an Asst Commissioner and dock labour pool (which btw is unionized, and have members from all unions)

3. Said containers are trucked out of the port into warehouses all over the country, after compromising all the excise and sales tax checkposts en route.

4. When a shipment leaves BEL, as informed by the BEL shipping clerk, the serial numbers are engraved on the boxes. They are carefully opened, engraved, and then re-packed, using a large labour pool that is compromised.

5. The shipment comes to the warehouse, to swap the boxes. It then gets delivered to the District warehouse.

6. If it is RF bugged BU, someone comes with a transmitter to program the BU. CUs can work RF only when powered ON, so won't work in the warehouse.

7. RF Bugged CUs are programmed at the booth by an army of 1000 agents, without raising suspicion of anyone.

8. The rigged machines go through counting, and to the warehouse with armed guards.

9. With the help of 6000 compromised government servants, the bad guys access the warehouse in 5-10 nights to replace the rigged units with the good units. With CUs, the counts are programmed into them by an army of 50 compromised people per constituency.

And no one, out of around 15000 people talks!!

Gross exaggeration of what I said.

2. I did not say that EVMs MUST come from regular ports. They can even come by fisher's boats . YSR used to own a fishery company IIRC. Essentially, there is a vast coastline, and YSR asked IPS to stay away and go boxes in. This is routine corruption on part of policemen. They are NOT into EVM conspiracy.

9. I said that replacement later can be skipped. Why take out bad unit when no real inquiry will happen.

Likewise, you have grossly exaggerated many points in BU replacement theory. And CU has battery and so one does not need to go to booth to send data to CU. Agents going to booth is only when CU has no RF and entry is from BU keypad.

You are mixing RF and non-RF theories.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 16:52

You are mixing RF and non-RF theories.

But you yourself said that CU with RF has already been replaced as fact. Since you know they have been replaced then why do you need 2 theories? You also know that PM, CM, Home min, Collectors are all in the scam as fact..... so why the 2 theories?

Is there something you *don't* know?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 16:55

Rahul Mehta wrote: Gross exaggeration of what I said.

No exaggeration from my part. YOU are the one who exaggerates beyond sane limits. I just summarized that you said.

2. I did not say that EVMs MUST come from regular ports. They can even come by fisher's boats . YSR used to own a fishery company IIRC. Essentially, there is a vast coastline, and YSR asked IPS to stay away and go boxes in. This is routine corruption on part of policemen. They are NOT into EVM conspiracy.

You didn't say, but that is a fact. Which fishing boat can carry a 40 foot container? Which fishing pier can handle it? You can bring in upto 10 units in a fishing boat per trip. Are you saying you will do it in 2000 trips?

The ONLY viable way to bring in 8-16 40ft containers worth of boxes into the country is to bring it in containers.

9. I said that replacement later can be skipped. Why take out bad unit when no real inquiry will happen.

When the next election comes, they will be inspected. Some will fail and get opened, and the scam found. Gell broken loose! Replacing them is REQUIRED.

Likewise, you have grossly exaggerated many points in BU replacement theory. And CU has battery and so one does not need to go to booth to send data to CU. Agents going to booth is only when CU has no RF and entry is from BU keypad.

The CU battery will be drained if the RF unit is kept on. You have no control on the CU battery. It is installed at the time of "commissioning". If you keep the microcontroller on, despite the power button off, you drain the battery to death. You got to keep it on if you want to receive the command and take action.

You are mixing RF and non-RF theories.

I am not.

If you use an RF module on the CU, you can activate it only at the booth, when it is ON. Of course you can pretend to turn it off, by blanking the LEDs, but then the microcontroller is still ON and draining battery.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 16:56

Tanaji wrote: I am just pointing to everyone how clearly your stand lines up with what every Neta wants:

Lesser number of independents contesting the election due to higher deposit so that they have a chance of the vote

Reduced transparency and more corruption because of the opposition to RTI. Netas know RTI can uncover inconvenient truths

More delays in judiciary because of jury system, so that neta can bribe just one juror , expose him and demand mistrial.

Opposition to EVM since they are difficult to game
Thats a wonderful alignment of your agenda with that of a corrupt Neta and is every Neta's dream come true. Your slips are showing up Rahul, Tsk, tsk....

Will you address the above Rahul? Who are you really speaking for?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 17:10

Tanaji wrote:But you yourself said that CU with RF has already been replaced as fact. Since you know they have been replaced then why do you need 2 theories? You also know that PM, CM, Home min, Collectors are all in the scam as fact..... so why the 2 theories?

Is there something you *don't* know?

Tanaji,

The second theory is that Congress MP just changed the SW, and there is no PCB change, no RF. That requires 200 volunteers (be MP's own or Mullah's volunteer or Missionary's volunteers) to sent to 200 booth in 300 Constituency. Chawala and/or state CEO provided the booth numbers where rigged EVMs were. And may be, "randomization" software was used to send rigged EVMs to required booth.

So while 100-200 volunteers are needed per LS seat, there is no confrontation with anyone. They act like voter, enter booth, enter password and get out. No risk. So MP *can* find such volunteers.

So

1. the "CU with keyboard entry" needs less tech but more people
2. the "CU with RF" needs more tech but less people in field, and can be done at wider scale.

So both theories have value in explaining "why EVM should not be used".

.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 17:15

What exactly is the "Congress MP's company doing maintenance"? Is the contract real? What exactly was the contract for?
Post information here please.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 17:18

Tanaji wrote: I am just pointing to everyone how clearly your stand lines up with what every Neta wants:

Lesser number of independents contesting the election due to higher deposit so that they have a chance of the vote

Reduced transparency and more corruption because of the opposition to RTI. Netas know RTI can uncover inconvenient truths

More delays in judiciary because of jury system, so that neta can bribe just one juror , expose him and demand mistrial.

Opposition to EVM since they are difficult to game
Thats a wonderful alignment of your agenda with that of a corrupt Neta and is every Neta's dream come true. Your slips are showing up Rahul, Tsk, tsk....

Pls put this is a different thread, and I will answer it there.

As far this thread goes, ONLY one point regarding deposit is relevant. And my even in April-2009 in election thread, I said SAME thing --- deposit should be at least Rs 100,000. Now do you oppose increase in deposit? How much deposit do YOU propose for LS election?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 17:27

I did a google search on india "voting machine" OR evm "maintenance contract", and the only relevant link that came up was from "politicsparty".

There is no tender information about any maintenance contract for EVMs.
The election rules says the inspection and maintenance to be done by only BEL/ECIL

Is the allegation real? Was there a maintenance contract? Was there media reports? I can't find any!

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2009 17:48

Isnt the politicsparty.com site owned by Raju?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 17:51

No, it is owned by the aliens that symbiotically live inside Raju's body.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Jul 2009 18:28

Dileep,

PoliticsParty.com is one source. Another is a BJP leader

http://www.bangaloremirror.com/index.as ... &sectxslt=

A BJP National Executive Member said, “At the risk of sounding like a bad loser, I would like to point out that it is no coincidence that software firms that have bagged EVM maintenance contracts, both in Delhi and Andhra, belong to Congress MPs.”

.