India-US News and Discussion

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Jul 2009 19:52

Anujan wrote:Some day, I am going to write a bigger post on our piskology. We, SDREs, have a false sense of honor and respect, and think that making exceptions to rules is our way of honoring important people. On the other hand, asking them to follow rules is somehow honoring them. It is not ! we have to get out of this mentality ! Our bending rules == honor piskology is cleverly exploited by everyone from negotiators to Unkil to somehow show that they respect us by making a "special exception".

Brilliant understanding of our mindset.

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 22 Jul 2009 20:45

Hormats named to key State Dept. position

Robert Hormats, a vice chairman of investment bank Goldman Sachs, has been tapped for a key U.S. State Department post, White House officials say.

<snip>

Should he be confirmed by the Senate, Hormats would head up efforts by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to help refine Washington's relationships with China, India and Russia, moving to base them on economic, trade and environmental issues, The New York Times reported

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2009 20:56

g.kacha wrote:Hormats named to key State Dept. position

Robert Hormats, a vice chairman of investment bank Goldman Sachs, has been tapped for a key U.S. State Department post, White House officials say.

<snip>

Should he be confirmed by the Senate, Hormats would head up efforts by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to help refine Washington's relationships with China, India and Russia, moving to base them on economic, trade and environmental issues, The New York Times reported

This confirms Delhi assessment that US is moving towards economic engagement with India more than any thing else. If anyone cares its the US-PRC nexus that Shyam Saran was talking about- look at the countries he is taksed to be engaged with.

And BTW, Robert Hormats was at GS helm, when the famous GS report was drafted. So he will be in charge of hedging the US relationships with these growing economic powers.

Keerthivasan · Post by **Keerthivasan** » 23 Jul 2009 03:02

Ramana wrote "I think KP Nayar is too long in DC and forgets Indian interests."

KP Nayar is a student of Former Ambassador T.P. Sreenivasan. Amb. Sreenivasan has publically acknowledged that and has high opinion of KP Nayar.

Strobe Talbott is enquiring about Shashi Tharoor. I think Americans are most happy about Shashi Tharoor’s appointment even more than Anand Sharma in Commerce Ministry.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jul 2009 06:50

Obama realised India's potential after Hillary visit: US media

So true:

It says that the US and India need to work particularly hard at raising American understanding of India – beyond such cultural encounters as the film "Slumdog Millionaire,"

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Jul 2009 06:59

^^^^
Original CSM editorial.
Clinton helps Obama rope in India as potential ally
Excerpt

Recasting the world according to the vision of Barack Obama may not always be easy for his secretary of State and erstwhile political rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton. But her recent three-day visit to India shows the former first lady can dutifully deliver results that point to an Obama-style global order.

The president (and thus Ms. Clinton) sees India as one of a few major or emerging powers that are well shy of being US allies but nonetheless might work more closely with the US – as the sole global superpower. He wants to share the burden of uplifting humanity and keeping the peace as he prefers to focus on his heavy domestic agenda.

By and large, the Clinton visit revealed an India ready to deepen ties with the US – far more so than with, say, China or Russia, and in similar measure to fellow democracies like Turkey, Brazil, South Africa, and Indonesia.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Jul 2009 07:05

Obama and India ---- Harsh V Pant
Excerpts

Of course, the Indo-US relationship losing some of its Bush-era sheen does not underestimate the value of the relationship to both sides. Economic and defence ties are on an upswing with the US and India finalising the End User Verification Agreement that will allow US companies to sell sophisticated arms to India. Bilateral trade is growing. And India will be an even bigger source of migration to the US in the coming decades. The Indian community in America is becoming ever more effective in leveraging their influence towards promoting bilateral ties.

But Washington and Delhi’s malaise was not dispelled by Clinton’s sweet words. The growing uneasiness is as much the result of administration change in Washington as it is of the economic crisis affecting the US. George W Bush, deeply suspicious of communist China, was personally keen on building strong ties with India. Hence, he was willing to sacrifice long-held US non-proliferation concerns to embrace nuclear India and acknowledge it as the primary actor in South Asia, de-hyphenated from Pakistan.

The Obama Administration’s concern with protecting the non-proliferation regime, dealing with the immediate challenge of the growing Taliban threat in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and solving the unprecedented economic challenge have led it to a very different set of priorities and an agenda in which India has a marginal role. The only context in which Obama has mentioned India thus far was the need to resolve Kashmir so as to find a way out of the West’s troubles in Afghanistan. Talk of a strategic partnership between the two countries has all but disappeared.

It will be short-sighted of the Obama administration to downgrade India’s status. On almost all the priority issues on the global agenda — climate change, non-proliferation, trade negotiations — India remains a pivotal player and a US-India partnership is the best route to achieve favourable outcomes. The Obama administration will have to do more than merely suggest that it understands Indian concerns. As Clinton discovered in her talks on the environment, a rising India is also a more assertive India and US foreign policy will not be able to achieve its objectives by ignoring Indian interests.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jul 2009 20:26

Add to that the US-PRC realtionship before and after the financial meltdown. India fears a ganging up against Indian interests. Earlier Democratic Admin (Clinton in 1998) were ready to hand Asia to PRC on platter and designate them as the Continental power.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Jul 2009 21:42

Sorry if already posted.

Educated Kasab would not have been a terrorist: Clinton: Indian Express

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has said, pitching for good education and jobs to wean away the youth from "blandishment" of terrorist groups. Clinton, who just concluded a five-day visit to India and was here to attend the ASEAN Regional Forum meeting, referred to "the very dramatic trial" of Kasab during an interview with The Nation, a partner of the Asia News Network. "What I found so interesting about his confession is that he was a young man without much purpose in life, he was in a job he did not find satisfying and he was susceptible to the blandishment of terrorist organisations: This will make you feel strong and powerful, this will give you a meaning and purpose in your life; and he bought into that and joined this group that was trained for the Mumbai attacks," she said.

Listening to the confession as she heard on Indian television, the 61-year-old felt "this was not someone who had some deep, overriding ideological commitment; this was somebody who got swept up in it." "So we want to convey to families and communities across the world that there's a better way... Now, we have to put some meat onto the bone of that statement, we have to make sure people get good education, we have to make sure that the people do have jobs," she said. These will be part of a more positive alternative to what the "terrorists are selling", Clinton said.

Less educated Mohammed Atta too would not have been a terrorist!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jul 2009 22:12

Islamists cannot be weaned away by Chicago school of economics. Everything else will be secondary.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Jul 2009 22:30

Hillary Clinton not intelligent: North Korea

"We cannot but regard Mrs Clinton as a funny lady as she likes to utter such rhetoric, unaware of the elementary etiquette in the international community," the spokesman added in a statement.

"Sometimes she looks like a primary schoolgirl and sometimes a pensioner going shopping."

"Her words suggest that she is by no means intelligent,"

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Jul 2009 22:31

Is she not aware of this.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Jul 2009 22:40

Sam Harris rocks!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Jul 2009 01:39

The bottom line behind India-U.S. 3.0 - Siddharth Varadarajan

...
The purpose behind Ms Clinton’s visit was twofold. First, to build new structures of engagement that might bring Indian thinking on major global issues like climate change, trade and disarmament in line with the “strong and constructive positions” the U.S. takes and away from the alternative consensus India is trying to build at different forums like BRIC, IBSA, G-20, G-77 and NAM. This she did by proposing a strategic dialogue consisting of “five pillars,” ranging from non-proliferation and climate change to trade, investment and agriculture. The second purpose was transactional: how to translate the strategic partnership with India into commercial gains for American businesses.

On both counts, Ms Clinton’s five-day visit was an unqualified triumph. The new strategic dialogue architecture was unveiled, and a strong foundation laid for nuclear and military sales. Both sides pretended to exchange views on burning international issues. But with barely an hour set aside for her official meeting with External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna, it is obvious that Ms Clinton was not particularly interested in hearing what her Indian hosts had to say on Iran and other subjects. Especially since she had already heard the one thing most important to her — end use.

Setting aside the publicly and privately expressed reservations of its armed forces, the United Progressive Alliance government agreed to an end use monitoring (EUM) agreement providing for the physical verification of defence items purchased from the U.S. None of India’s major defence suppliers imposes such a condition, though of course it may welcome the opportunity to do so in the future now that the country has shown a willingness to open its doors. India also gave in to the U.S. request to identify the two nuclear parks where American-supplied reactors will be installed. This at a time when Washington is attempting to renege on its commitment to facilitate full civil nuclear cooperation with India by getting the Nuclear Suppliers Group to introduce an NPT-only rule for the sale of enrichment and reprocessing items.
...
...
As the CAG discovered during his scrutiny of the Jalashva (formerly USS Trenton) landing dock ship India bought from the U.S. a few years ago, American weapons contracts come not just with potentially intrusive inspections but also with a “legitimate self-defence” end use requirement whose interpretation is bound to be contingent on wider political equations. For example, Israel has used U.S.-supplied aircraft and munitions in nakedly aggressive acts against its neighbours countless times but Washington has never held these to be a violation of the self-defence condition. But tomorrow, if India uses an American-supplied jet for an anti-terrorist operation outside its borders that the U.S. does not approve of, the end-use language of SAMM 4.5.7 may well be invoked against New Delhi. The Trenton was sold to enable India to deploy troops for humanitarian missions in the region that the U.S. may be unable or unwilling to undertake. If India tries to use it for “offensive” purposes, however, it may well have to contend with U.S. protests.

...
Part of the problem has to do with mistaken assumptions and flawed understandings in India of what its strategic partnership with the U.S. involves. India assumes that American interests and strategies in the region are congruent with its own. India also believes a strategic partnership means the Americans will understand and share its concerns and priorities on most big issues and, at a minimum, not act against Indian interests wherever there are divergent views. For the U.S., on the other hand, the partnership is all about shaping India’s choices and priorities. It is about ensuring that India does not bandwagon with other rising powers. And acting against Indian interests (as it is now doing at the G8 and NSG) is not seen as a contradiction. That is why Indian apprehensions about President Barack Obama’s commitment to the strategic ties established by George W. Bush were so misplaced. This partnership helped open the doors of nuclear commerce for India but also led to a number of Indian doors being opened for the American side. Surely it would be most un-American for the new administration to not seek entry.
...
...
India’s engagement with the U.S. is one of the most exciting and challenging aspects of the country’s foreign policy today. But unless this high-stakes game is handled properly, with planning, foresight and determination, it could well turn out to be dangerous.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2009 03:06

I would have thought that the "Jalashva (formerly USS Trenton)" issue and the EUM "signing" were binary in nature - either the Jalashva can be used or it cannot be used and so too the EUM, either it is signed or it isn't signed.

Uday Bhaskar stated that the agreement has not been signed.

Why do we have to make so confusing? What a waste of time and energy.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 24 Jul 2009 03:41

NRao:

Some clues in this article regarding the misconception about the EUMA/EUVA being signed. Apparently it is not signed yet.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090723/j ... 272199.jsp

It helped that Antony had made it clear to US national security adviser James Jones last month in New Delhi that the UPA government would be unable to politically sell the idea of a comprehensive end-use pact that allowed the US access to Indian military bases for inspections and had other intrusive clauses.

Jones returned to Washington and reported what Antony had said. US sources said President Barack Obama, defence secretary Robert Gates and Clinton understood the political compulsions of the UPA government: they are in such situations themselves on almost a daily basis.

But US officials down the line were unwilling to agree to the Indian formula, complaining that New Delhi was always getting exemptions from US laws and standards as in the nuclear deal.

During an hour-long meeting at the White House on the eve of her departure for Mumbai, Clinton got Obama’s personal clearance for the “arrangement but no agreement” formula.

From multiple US accounts yesterday, Clinton told only a close circle in the state department about the “arrangement” until she was in New Delhi. As a result, her officials in Washington continued to talk about an end-use monitoring agreement to be signed between the two sides when that was actually not to be.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2009 03:50

Hi Anant (lost your contact: indicgroup netscape net)

THAT is the problem. It still is "apparently". It should be this or that. India cannot have a bunch of writers who say "this" and some others who say "that". And waste infinite amount of time, print, etc on such a minor, insignificant (in the scheme of things) point.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Jul 2009 08:40

From that B.Raman article on ISI-R&AW contacts article

The CIA has had a liaision relationship with Indian intelligence for nearly 60 years. While I was in service, it had shared a lot of intelligence with us on China, but not on Pakistan and its support to anti-India terrorism. It was its perception that it was in the US national interest to help India against China, but not against Pakistan.

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Jul 2009 08:55

In effect the US Government via its Transportation Security Administration has given India the middle finger and says that US laws override Indian laws on Indian territory

.

Somehow I am not confident that our Congress party led Dr.Manmohan Singh administration has the capability to defend India's sovereignity and make the US see the error of its ways

:

Airline followed rules, India’s VIP list irrelevant: US

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 24 Jul 2009 09:42

Personally, I don't find the frisking of any VIPs to be a serious issue. I'm not terribly in favour of VIP culture, where they get fast-tracks and privileges for everything, while leaving the common man to languish. Let them suffer the same inconvenience as everyone else. If it's wrong for them to experience it, then it's wrong for the rest of the public to. If it's okay for the rest of the public to experience it, then let the VIPs be subject to the same standards of treatment.

Seems to me that the Kaangress look to puff out their chest to show their "nationalism" in order to distract from their craven retreats on more vital issues. MMS is beating his chest about frisking, and meanwhile the hypocrite is making joint statements with Pak where we get blamed for Balochistan and the cricket team attack.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 24 Jul 2009 12:14

Sorry if posted earlier
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisp ... spx?id=713
Seems like UKsthan is still upto the old game

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Jul 2009 13:13

arun wrote:In effect the US Government via its Transportation Security Administration has given India the middle finger and says that US laws override Indian laws on Indian territory .

Somehow I am not confident that our Congress party led Dr.Manmohan Singh administration has the capability to defend India's sovereignity and make the US see the error of its ways :

Airline followed rules, India’s VIP list irrelevant: US

Now this is the stuff, for which huge wars are waged.

US Position: All passengers traveling into the US by a US Commercial Airline are required to carry out pre-embarkation screening on all passengers, except those exempted by TSA, which would by

only “active Heads of State” travelling “under protective escort of the US Secret Service or “high level active foreign dignitaries under the protective escort of the US Diplomatic Security Service” and “vetted through the Department of State and TSA,” were exempted from the screening process.

Current Heads of State => Escort by US Secret Service
High Level Foreign Dignitary => Escort by US Diplomatic Secret Service + SD & TSA Vetting

Indian Position: The VIP List exempts 18 VIPs from pre-embarkation screenings

Right Way of Doing It: Give the Continental Airlines 3 weeks to assure India, that they would never again violate Indian Laws on Indian Territory, in this context the VIP Screenings Exemption Law, and if they can't give this assurance, the airline would be requested to wrap up its operations in India and leave. Let the Continental Airlines approach TSA for the assurance. Let the US Embassy in India talk to the State Dept. We should not need to talk to TSA or the State Dept, unless they approach us. It is Continental Airlines who broke Indian Laws, and it is with them we deal.

Wrong Way of Doing It: Bureau of Civil Aviation Security (BCAS) — directed by the Ministry of Civil Aviation itself approaches Transportation Security Administration to consider the inclusion of the Indian VIP Exemption List in their guidelines for US Commercial Airlines flying from India. It is the job of the Commercial Airline to get these guarantees from TSA and not for the Ministry of Civil Aviation to beg TSA to change its guidelines and thereby save both Indo-US relations and the H&D of our VIPs.

The solution for US is easy: State Dept. only has to include the VIP List for exemption, and TSA has to rubber-stamp it. The US Diplomatic Secret Service has to transfer its authority to the Indian VIP Protocol Service or whatever we have in India. This is all purely internal American Laws stuff. The Americans can protect their Laws and H&D and India can protect its Laws and H&D.

But should American arrogance shine through as it has in the above statement from TSA, then the issue will escalate. It will become an H&D Issue about whose writ runs on US Commercial Airlines flying from Indian shores, the Indians would be forced to ask US Commercial Airlines to stop their operations in India as they cannot follow Indian Guidelines. The Americans will retaliate and stop all Indian Airlines from flying to and from US.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 15:49

Let me split some hairs, despite my feelings about the incident:

1. For all civil purposes, the space inside the airliner is US territory. The aerobridge is not. For criminal purposes, it is Indian territory till the airliner leaves Indian airspace.

2. The ticket you buy is a contract. You agree to be subject to the TSA rules when you buy a ticket from a US carrier. You always have the option to refuse and not enter the aircraft.

3. The security rules that excempt some VIPs are the rules for the AIRPORT screening in India, and to enter Indian aircraft. Those rules are good enough to reach the aerobridge, not to the aircraft.

4. DGCA, who gives permission to the foreign aircraft to operate from the Indian airport, can demand that the US carriers implement this excemption as a condition. Then it becomes the airline's problem to work with their TSA to get permission.

5. I am not sure if the permit to the airline already specifies this. Since security is normally handled at the airport without the involvement of the airline, it might not be.

I think the best way is to raise this as a standard condition in the agreement with FAA under which the various US airlines operate.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Jul 2009 16:23

Dileep, thanks for the legal inputs.

o Would it be a criminal issue or a civilian issue, if somebody on the VIP List is screened on the aircraft?

o I thought that the tickets one buys, are issued according to IATA rules, and not country specific rules like TSA rules!

o Would you be in the know, whether the ex-President was screened in the aircraft (which would be unusual) or in the aerobridge, or in the airport building itself? This brings us to the first question!

o Has DGCA already made those demands that the foreign airline comply with Indian rules, including exemption from screening for those on the VIP List, whether that be

before the aerobridge,
on the aerobridge,
on the aircraft while it is still in Indian territory,
on the aircraft while it is in international airspace,
on the aircraft while it is US airspace.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jul 2009 16:25

Dileep wrote:Let me split some hairs,

Sorry to ask but why split hairs? In some case its better to blunt than fine.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Jul 2009 17:21

Pew Global Attitudes Survey: July 23, 2009 (PDF)

Somethings I observed
- US Favorability Rating by India is 76%, right behind USA with 88% and South Korea with 78%. In Russia, Poland, Pakistan it fell a little while in Israel it fell substantially from the Bush years.

- Only Israel thinks Obama will do worse than Bush.

- In Pakistan and Palestinian Territories, Obama inspires less confidence than Osama.

- Only Americans (54%:42%), Indians(38%:27%) and Israelis(54%:32%) approve of more US troops for Afghanistan.

- Only Indonesians amongst the Muslim countries (54%:28%) think Obama will be fair in mideast.

- Mideast doesn't believe Obama will be multilateral.

- Only China (87%), India (53%) and Canada (51%) are satisfied with their national condition.

- Only China (88%) and India (73%) think the economy is in good shape. Indians' opinion of the economy has improved from 2008 (62% - 73%), so has Chinese opinion (82% -> 88%) and Indonesians opinion (20% -> 48%)

-

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Jul 2009 17:48

arun wrote:In effect the US Government via its Transportation Security Administration has given India the middle finger and says that US laws override Indian laws on Indian territory .

Somehow I am not confident that our Congress party led Dr.Manmohan Singh administration has the capability to defend India's sovereignity and make the US see the error of its ways :

Airline followed rules, India’s VIP list irrelevant: US

Even while our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh maintains a studied silence, other politicians, including those from our Prime Minister's own Congress party, are vocalising their displeasure with the US Transportation Security Administration effectively giving India the finger by claiming that US law overrides Indian law on Indian territory:

Leaders slam US stand on Kalam frisking issue

Agencies Posted online: Friday , Jul 24, 2009 at 1558 hrs

New Delhi : Cutting across party lines, leaders on Friday reacted sharply to the US Transportation Security Administration's statement that frisking of former President Abdul Kalam was "in compliance" with American regulatory requirements.

BJP leader Rajiv Pratap Rudy wondered "whether such things are happening due to the 'kneel down before US' policy of the UPA government".

"Government should give a thorough reply on this matter. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will have to give a clarification on the issue," the former civil aviation minister said.

He also sought to know whether the government is properly maintaining its protocol list or not.

Terming the incident of Kalam being frisked by staff of a US airlines as "sad", NCP MP Supria Sule said," there is a protocol and airlines have to follow the guidelines enforced by the operating country".

Congress MP JP Agrawal said, "if it (following protocol in frisking) is not in their (US) law, they should bring amendments into it."

BJP MP Vinay Katiyar and former Minister of State for External Affairs Digvijay Singh even called for a similar treatment to US dignitaries if the Americans do not follow protocol for Indian VIPs.

"There is a greater threat of terrorism in our country than in the US. If the US airline companies do not follow protocol for our dignitaries, we may also do the same to their dignitaries," Katiyar said.

Singh, Independent MP from Bihar, said, "we will face this problem as long we do not use protocol as a weapon of diplomacy.

"When I was in foreign ministry, we have done it and then our Foreign Minister was not frisked. We will have to adopt a policy if such things happen to our dignitaries, the same treatment will be meted out to their dignitaries as well," Singh said.

Rajya Sabha member from Congress Rajiv Shukla, however said, "the civil aviation ministry is competent to take whatever action is required. Let us leave it to them. They have already lodged an FIR." ………………………

Indian Express

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Jul 2009 18:02

One wonders if this on account of the current US linked controversies over Continental Airlines frisking of former President Abdul Kalam, signing of the End User Monitoring Arrangement and more speculatively possible US pressure being the reason for our Prime Minister's inexplicable actions in Sharam El Sheikh, with the US not opting to put up Richard Holbrooke as the lightening rod ?:

Richard Holbrooke not visiting India this time: US

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Jul 2009 18:59

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sagarikagho ... a-vip.html

I remember as a student in Oxford, my History professor telling me that he had observed that the poorer a country, the more ostentatious and pompous its diplomats and politicians. He said American diplomats and politicians routinely travel by bus or taxi in London. But Indian politicians and diplomats abroad, always have to have a chauffeur driven Rolls Royce!

A personal anecdote. On a flight to Sri Lanka a year ago, I saw a very familiar looking British gentleman and a friend standing a few places behind me in the security queue. After the gentleman's bag was checked, the rather brusque staff at IGI airport even asked him to open it. He did so without demur, packed all his things away afterwards, smiled at the staff and stood in the queue again to board his flight. The gentleman was none other than former British prime minister Tony Blair! A lesson for our VIPs?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Jul 2009 19:31

Heard one of the most obnoxious, condescending and mocking news report from NPR on the Kalam frisking episode. Philips Reeves described the President as "ceremonial" and the tone suggested as if he was referring to some club president. Even Enron officials got better introduction. Yeah, you guessed it he brought in 'Caste' factor too. He went on to say in India caste does not matter more; and that Indians are not snobbish like they used to be in the British days, but Indians are still class conscious yada yada. He joked about VVIP vs VIP. He badly filed report from Nayi Dili.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 Jul 2009 19:49

IF continental has to leave, other international airlines should pack and leave as well.

Indians can fly to Nepal and Pakistan and Sri Lanka and thense fly elsewhere. Indian VIP thing is absolute BS. Apart from Active Head of state and first line active ministers, no one should be exempted from security check.

Here is a universal rule thats already established. "A Pilot in Command" is the sole person to determine if a person can board HIS/HER plane. Even at 35000 feet with the US president on board on Air Force 1, the PIC is the one in charge of that plane. Not the President.

munna · Post by **munna** » 24 Jul 2009 19:52

Manny wrote:IF continental has to leave, other international airlines should pack and leave as well.

Indians can fly to Nepal and Pakistan and Sri Lanka and thense fly elsewhere. Indian VIP thing is absolute BS. Apart from Active Head of state and first line active ministers, no one should be exempted from security check.

Indians laws exempt them hence yours or TSA's opinions do NOT COUNT. A Law is a law and none can break it, need be we can fly our carriers but any US airlines HAS to COMPLY with INDIAN laws. Period. The two bit TSA officer and his boss will be jailed for this and thats the way it is. Welcome to India cause this is where our rules work and not some fuddy duddy amreekan ones.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 Jul 2009 19:53

Yes, Indians can fly its thugs (Kalam is a good man and hence no issue, but tomorrow you could have real lefty thugs elected with connection to the underworld.) without a search..but They should NOT be allowed to disembark on US soil without a search. Yes.. Laws are laws in the US too. India's laws have no bearing on who can enter the US territory...including the airliner.

munna · Post by **munna** » 24 Jul 2009 19:58

Manny wrote:Yes, Indians can fly its thugs without a search..but They should be allowed to disembark on US soil without a search. Yes.. Laws are laws in the US too.

Fair enough let US laws work in US but they count for a grand big zero/zilch/nada on Indian soil and the two bit TSA punk will soon find out. Too bad he did not mess up with some LS/RS minister member, for he could have been jailed by the speaker without even going to the ccourts for breach of privileges. Law is a law and NO US punk will teach us what to do on our land. By the way do not call my national leaders thugs especially when someone of the calibre of Dr Kalam is involved in this fiasco. Please edit the offensive post.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 Jul 2009 20:04

What is so difficult to understand here. This search is prior to boarding an American Airliner that is fling to the US. What has that to do with Indian soil?

So if a Search is done at the entrance of an US Embassy, what are you going to pull? that it was done in Indian soil and hence have to follow some VIP BS?

munna · Post by **munna** » 24 Jul 2009 20:05

Manny wrote:Yes, Indians can fly its thugs (Kalam is a good man and hence no issue, but tomorrow you could have real lefty thugs elected with connection to the underworld.) without a search..but They should NOT be allowed to disembark on US soil without a search. Yes.. Laws are laws in the US too. India's laws have no bearing on who can enter the US territory...including the airliner.

It is not to be decided by anybody but Indians as to who can be frisked at our airports and if some two bit TSA has the gumption to defy Indian constitution and laws we WILL take him to cleaners. Period. I do not care about US or Timbuktu laws as they all mean the same to me, foreign laws inapplicable on our land.

munna · Post by **munna** » 24 Jul 2009 20:08

Manny wrote:What is so difficult to understand here. This search is prior to boarding an American Airliner that is fling to the US. What has that to do with Indian soil?

So if a Search is done at the entrance of an US Embassy, what are you going to pull? that it was done in Indian soil and hence have to follow some VIP BS?

You are finding it tough to comprehend that our laws rule supreme be it US or any other airliner on Indian territory! they cannot frisk Kalam anywhere in India be it the airliner or embassy, if they do so they go to jail. I hope I am clear now, US or no US the TSA punk goes to jail for frisking Kalam as that is the law.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 Jul 2009 20:15

The location of the search (Pre Board) is a segway. It is very appropriate. and there is no other location that a search could be done that is practical other than where it was done. So Pulling the "Indian Soil" technicality has no bearing...It fails the "reasonable objection test" IMO.

According to y'alls logic, a Plane taking off from Kandahar should follow Afghan Taliban laws where a Talibani can board a plane bound for India,...with his AK47 and rocket launchers because he is a VIP in the Talibani community.

munna · Post by **munna** » 24 Jul 2009 20:20

Manny wrote:The location of the search (Pre Board) is a segway. It is very appropriate. and there is no other location that a search could be done that is practical other than where it was done. So Pulling the "Indian Soil" technicality has no bearing...It fails the "reasonable objection test" IMO.

Stop posting your opinions! There no where is India that they can subject him to a check, even within our airspace if you really want to be technical. The airliner in India is still subject to our laws and we will deal with it the way we want to. Opinions do not matter our laws do and we shall see to it that people learn their lessons

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sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 24 Jul 2009 20:28

I'm not terribly in favour of VIP culture, where they get fast-tracks and privileges for everything, while leaving the common man to languish.

What will be the reaction of American government if Air India staffers tomorrow ask George Bush to remove his shoes and get himself searched before boarding an Air India aircraft parked in an American airport?

Americans hate kalam because of his involement in missile development. They have singled him out for humiliation.