Should we discontinue EVMs?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Jul 2009 19:46

Well, politicsparty's reputation is known. And the only other pointer is a speech by an MP?

If it was true, I would have expected the anti EVM gang to raise hell by now. So, until someone shows some solid link, I will take them as FALSE.

No maintenance contract was given for EVMs. By that I mean a contract that allows "technical access" to the EVM units.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Jul 2009 21:06

Why are we discounting this simple fact. If let us say 100 people are involved, 90 of them may be involved in it out of greed and in spite of threats to eliminate and stuff a 3 or 4 will surely make it to bhajpa offices or atleast write a letter as to how it was done to derive monetary benefit and when this happens all hell^n breaks loose

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 24 Jul 2009 22:47

suryag wrote:Why are we discounting this simple fact. If let us say 100 people are involved, 90 of them may be involved in it out of greed and in spite of threats to eliminate and stuff a 3 or 4 will surely make it to bhajpa offices or atleast write a letter as to how it was done to derive monetary benefit and when this happens all hell^n breaks loose

No please don't let those facts come in between the on going discussions.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Jul 2009 02:40

And to top it all. RM ji is claiming his grand plan involving 1000s of CIA funded officials will go off without any hitch, leak or whiff in India. Talk about flights of fancy and distorted reality.

RM ji,
From observing this thread, it is by now fairly clear that your tactics are 400% same as those of any militant activist (be it anti-abortion or anti-nuke or PETA or women's-lib or others). When confronted with hard facts, you try to nimbly skip to the next flight of fancy; when disproved, you fall back on vague theories like everybody is corrupted from PM to peon or darkly hint at "there is more than meets the eye". Everything is reality distortion with each progressive stage being subtle enough to ensure that the target audience doesn't feel it is being taken for a ride since the delta is tiny (but cumulatively it becomes huge). There is a great neighbour on our Western borders who use this tactic quite successfully also.

Here is a simple request: Since you consider all this plausible, trivial or doable - why dont you create a prototype EVM and then show how it can be rigged - one can even discount differences in layout etc. as long as you stick to the basic BOM and design. For example, as a first step, show how you will put in the RF without anybody noticing a visual difference. Then lets see you transmit 10 bytes to subvert the EVM from your suitcase/van/cellphone tower. Provide some hard stats on failure rates, how many EVMs were successfully subverted, how many were not subverted, how many were subverted but behaved abnormally (like increasing vote count by 10000 instead of 100) etc. Atleast lets see how trivial it is to subvert the EVM technologically before we even go into the crazy stuff about CIA subverting everybody from Chawla to his peons. You may be a MS (Computer Science) from Rutgers but that is not enough to certify the hot air you have been spouting here in the name of activism.

Do we know for a fact that paper ballot based voting has ever been rigged? YES. Do we know for a fact that EVM based voting has ever been rigged? NO. Hence, burden of proof (not theories) is on you. The people behind the EVM have provided reasonable proof that it works as intended, now the burden of proof of its vulnerability should be on folks like you - simply spinning vaguely plausible Tom Clancy tales and quoting them as gospel truth ain't going to work.

Therefore, Sir, please put your money where your mouth is instead of holding publicity stunts to bias the gullible and the laymen. Its one thing to design a system on paper and another thing to create one in the real world. You seem to have much experience in the former but I am confused how much experience you have in the latter.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 25 Jul 2009 08:24

Dishonesty is one basic requirement for an activist, but the dishonesty there is created by the energy of belief in the cause, and is normally present in reasonable level only. If you confront an activist with facts, he will turn back, even though he won't agree with you, or change his POV.

The level of dishonesty exhibited by RM is seen only in the crookedest politicians. I wouldn't grant him the status of "Activist". He is at a level equal to or above the corrupt commies in my state, who used to be height of dishonesty in my scale. The only solace here is, RM don't have much followers, unlike the commies. The reason being, his rhetoric don't have the glaze of "pro poor"

I have a feeling that we haven't seen nothing of the EVM saga yet. The politicians who hate them are "going to the people" to shoot it down. I wouldn't be surprised if the next election campaign is "to remove the gov't who never had the mandate". People are gullible, and this is one subject they don't understand, hence concerned.

EVMs will cease to be used in India. I am sure about it. The dirty politicians, including RM, will win unjustly. But then, even though it is shaped and formed by ulterior motives, it is still the people's will, and I would respect that.

I would still vote. I would vote early, so that no one steals it.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Jul 2009 11:57

Dileep,

I believe militant activist is the word I was looking for, in the above post (since replaced). While I wouldn't go so far as to label RMji crooked since I am not aware of his antecedents, I would give him the benefit of doubt and definitely label him naive - someone who perhaps is being used by those who are crooked. Either ways end result is the same and your fears may soon come true.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jul 2009 12:01

I suspect mehta ji is leaving no stone unturned to win the next election, by rigging EVMs with CIA help if necessary. he is just picking BRFites' brains here to find out what can be done !

disclaimer : meant to be a joke. don't take this seriously.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 25 Jul 2009 14:20

The amount of dishonesty he brings in speaks against any notion of naivete. Extremes of Militant Activism, maybe. But the path to least resistance is crook.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jul 2009 09:45

About the alleged rigging in Bhandara-Gondia.

Link

What left us dumbfounded was the fact that polling figures of some 60 booths did not tally with the final vote count. There was difference ranging from 50 to 200 votes in each of these booths," said city MLA Devendra Fadnavis, who was also present at the meeting along with Patle. This something unheard of. Citing one instance, a shocked Patle said: "At one booth, the total number of voters was 550, actual votes polled were 417 but the final count shows it as 600. That is, more votes were polled than shown in voter list

HC issues notice to Praful Patel

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 26 Jul 2009 09:49

Technical feasibility of several different ways of rigged EVMs, including RF based, is now accepted. The question is : how to get the rigged EVMs to booths, and then may be only if needed, get them out. The issue is how many people in Govt should be active agents in top, how many should be passive bribe takers and how many external guys (gora from US) will be needed.

Dileep wrote:So, we are adding more people into the equation. An entire customs establishment of a port, the dock labour pool, trucks, people at the excise checkpost, tax checkpost etc.

Let us see, once again the vapour pillars on which the RM castle stands:

.....

2. 8 to 16 container load of those machines are imported into some port that can handle containers, after compromising an entire team under an Asst Commissioner and dock labour pool (which btw is unionized, and have members from all unions)

3. Said containers are trucked out of the port into warehouses all over the country, after compromising all the excise and sales tax checkposts en route.

....

7. RF Bugged CUs are programmed at the booth by an army of 1000 agents, without raising suspicion of anyone.

8. The rigged machines go through counting, and to the warehouse with armed guards.

9. With the help of 6000 compromised government servants, the bad guys access the warehouse in 5-10 nights to replace the rigged units with the good units. With CUs, the counts are programmed into them by an army of 50 compromised people per constituency.

In a subversive operation, there is a comrade-in-arm aka agent and "another is just a corrupt fellow" or accessory. Latter does not have deep nexuses and he does not even know whole plan or even part of it. eg When Dawood organized bomb spree in Mumbai, he needed to get RDX smuggled into India. For this, Tiger Menon , one local smugglers and some 40 more people were comrade in arms, deep into conspiracy. Now some customs guys also came to know that RDX is coming. So they just raised the bribe, and let RDX pass. These customs guys were not colleagues or "into conspiracy" or agents but were just corrupt people who became accessory. This is one feature of corruption - when corruption grows, conspiracies and subversive actions need LESS agents to take risk.

So I did NOT say that customs people who let N containers pass were also agents. They need not be made agents. For all, they might think that smuggler YSR is merely smuggling some electronics items into India. Everyone knows that YSR is the biggest smuggler in AP, and his men bring shipload of goods everyday. Do customs people look what is he smuggling on daily basis? At best, they will only ensure that goods are not RDX. If they are some electronics items, they would not even bother.

Similarly, the policeman guarding EVM room is not agent, but just accessory. He gets order from collector to let some guys walk in, replace goods, and in turn the guard gets some cash. Replacement of evidence is routine business in police, administration etc and they dont bother. So he too is mere accessory and not an agent.

In contrast, Chawala is agent, because he has full knowledge replacement of whole box (or code). The DC is agent.

If an operation needs too many agents, it will fail to take off. But if operation needs a few agents, and many accessories, it can indeed work in corrupt setup like India, where accessories are plentiful. eg if Customs was not corrupt, Dawood may have failed to sneak in RDX and have a bomb spree. Or he would need several agents in Customs, which again is difficult. But general corruption ensured that he can sneak in RDX without having any agent in Customs.

Now Dileep is portraying every accessory as agent, thus showing that task needs 1000s of agents. And hence he is trying to prove that the task is impossible. Once that semi-lie is discounted, and one classifies participants as agents and accessories, it becomes clear that plan needs only a few agents and rest are accessories, And thus the task of replacing EVMs is possible.

I will re-state how Chawala, YSR replaced EVMs (or could have replaced EVMs) making it clear whether a person involved is a mere accessory or an agent. After that, it will become clear that replacing 60000 EVMs needs very few agents.

Also, while guys claim that "CIA cannot do such a thing in India" because Indian administration is not tha corrupt or CIA is not so strong, please do a reality check. Check what CIA has already accomplished in India. Some 10% land of India , what you call as naxal belt, is nothing but CIA belt. It is a zone inside India, where not even a DIG can go but CIA agent can walk free, send arms and create armies. Not only CIA owns that Naxal-belt, it has bribed mediamen not to highlight the fact that CIA owns that land. So do a reality check on what CIA has already achieved and yet hidden it from most.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 26 Jul 2009 13:17

suryag wrote:Why are we discounting this simple fact. If let us say 100 people are involved, 90 of them may be involved in it out of greed and in spite of threats to eliminate and stuff a 3 or 4 will surely make it to bhajpa offices or atleast write a letter as to how it was done to derive monetary benefit and when this happens all hell^n breaks loose

In trojan in CU theory, a volunteer has to go to booth to punch in the code and candidate number in the EVM. Now if there are say 200 such EVMs out of 1500 EVMs in that LS seat, then that MP or someone would need to send 200 volunteers to such booth.

Now if I were that Congress MP, I would NOT send my seva dal crooks, as they can sell out for cash and leak the information. I would rather contact Mullah (not missionary, only Mullah) to provide committed volunteers who are from well off families. Anyone who has studied subversive activities will tell you : if you want a person to involve and then also want him to keep that secret, only take a committed person and a well-off person. There is a difference between committed volunteer and just a paid guy --- the committed in politics for a cause right or wrong. He may be hating BJP intensely for whatever reason. eg in Ahmedabad, there are at least 1000-2000 such people (such as riot victims) who would be willing to do this task for free. The local Mullah would be knowing such people and can provide such volunteers.

Mullahs have a few people, sometimes as good as doctor or and engineer, who are *willing* to die for free. Surely, he can find 200 people who will do zero risk business like punching keys for free. Missionaries would never rig the poll. But otherwise, they too can find committed people. Even RSS 20000 full timers who have chosen not to marry so that they can spend full time for their Hinduvaadi cause. And in addition, they have many more. To these hardcore, add other semi-hardcore RSSians. Even RSS can find 60000 dependable people to punch in keys, who will never later leak this information. And Mullah's network is 5 times more powerful than RSS and Missionaries' network is twice bigger than mullahs. Or Mullah can just tell him that if you punch this holy number, BJP will lose !! So the volunteer may not even know that he is sending password to the CU.

So finding 200 per seat is least of issues. They dont have contacts with BJP and Mullah will only pick people who hate BJP and will be from affluent background who dont care for little money. And even if they were to say : who is going to believe them? They will be rubbed off as ISI agent who are out to malign ECI, the second most holy institution in India.

---

Someone mentioned the State of Kerala in one of the posts I cant find now. Getting 200 EVMs per seat in Kerala is difficult, but Kerala Congress does not need that many rigged EVMs. In Kerala, If Congress can manage to sneak in 10 rigged EVMs, each EVM adding 600 votes, then extra 6000 seats per seat would be sufficient. Also, Kerala is not a "suspect" state. The suspect states states are AP, TN, Delhi and may be 2-3 more.

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The Municipal elections are done by State Election Commissions. It looks like Delhi SEC still uses paper ballots, or may be, the URL on their website is some old document.

Here is their website with instruction to paper ballots.

http://www.delhi.gov.in/wps/wcm/connect ... +For+Issue

It clearly says that presiding officer must sign the ballot papers. And ballot papers have serial numbers. So I cant print ballots at home and stuff them at booth. Also, if there is a stamping machine at booth which which can stamp only one paper every 30 seconds, then that too would reduce possibility of ballot stuffing. Dileep asked "what if one makes duplicate stamp". Well, in that case the final counter on the stamping machine in booth and number of ballots in box will differ. To that, add camera in all booths, starting with sensitive booths first.So essentially, EVM lovers have resorted to fake scaremongering of ballot stuffing and claims that there is NO paper way to reduce ballot stuffing. This is nothing but a dishonest argument against paper ballots. Paper ballots with a few modifications will be sufficient to create 30 seconds delay and become as safe as EVM. ( I am also thinking of creating a way by which ballot box can be designed so that it will take only 1 paper in 30 seconds. I am not sure if it can be done though.)

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Re : EVM with ballot printing.

Costs aside, what do you gain? And again, what will stop me from printing 10 reciepts on my printer and then taking them to booth and inserting them with 11th one. The ballot paper was large and so if one is inserting 2-3 ballot papers, he will be noticed. Also, there is sign of presiding officer at the back in regular paper ballot. Now in case of receipt printing , I cant get signature AFTER voting as that can violate privacy. And if I get the signature before, then I have to put the paper in printer AFTER taking sign and that would take too much time.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 26 Jul 2009 17:08

.

Lets say nCandidates was used to tell rigged EVM which is the preferred candidate.

There were 5 types of rigged EVMs.

And each type used a different function to calculate Favorite_Candidate_Number from nCandidates.

The only condition is : all rigged EVMs in one LS seat must be of the same type.

Then nCandidates can be used to favor Congress. How?

eg

Say there are 5 different types of rigged EVMs.

Type-1 has Favorite = (nCandidates + 0) mod 5 + 1
Type-2 has Favorite = (nCandidates + 1) mod 5 + 1
Type-3 has Favorite = (nCandidates + 2) mod 5 + 1
Type-4 has Favorite = (nCandidates + 3) mod 5 + 1
Type-5 has Favorite = (nCandidates + 4) mod 5 + 1

These are just example functions. If I were to make EVMs, I would use more complex functions.

Now the Congress MP has to be told to put 4 spurious independents and have 0-4 withdrawn so that nCandidates favors him. Hence ZERO field agent is needed

Now say set-3 EVMs are sent to AP's Adilabad seat. Then in Adilabad, Congress was No. 2. So the Congress MP has to ensure that nCandidates are 4, 9, 14, 19 .... This is manageable for the local Congress MP. He can add 4 spurious candidates and have 0-4 them withdraw at last moment to ensure that nCandidates are the number Sonia told him to have.

---

So the whole plan was as follows

1. Some 60000 EVMs had rigged SW in chip or in the microcode. There were no replacements of EVM in warehouse.

2. There were 5 types of rigged ROM or micocodes
a. Type-1 favored candidate# = (nCandidates + 0) mod 5 + 1
b. Type-2 favored candidate# = (nCandidates + 1) mod 5 + 1
c. Type-3 favored candidate# = (nCandidates + 2) mod 5 + 1
d. Type-4 favored candidate# = (nCandidates + 3) mod 5 + 1
e. Type-5 favored candidate# = (nCandidates + 4) mod 5 + 1

3. Chawala sent these 100,000 EVMs to 400 seats in such a way that each seat had same 50-300 rigged EVMs of SAME type. He, Sonia knew which LS seat had which type of rigged EVMs.

4. The Congress and all nationally recognized parties will come to know the candidate number 22 days before poll. While nCandidates are decided on 16 days before poll, as candidates can withdraw within 5 days after last day of filing file nomination.

4. So each Congress guy got 4 of his men as independents. They were accessory, not agents. They knew nothing. And now at the last moment, he asked 0-4 candidates to withdraw so that nCandidates adjusts to a number that would make him the preferred candidate number.

----

eg in Ahmedabad, Chawala had sent machines of Type-3. And Congress guy knew that his number is no. 2 on April-9. He had 4 of his men to filed as independent. And then he asked 0-4 at last minute to withdraw so that nCandidates are 19. These machines were pre-programmed to favor candidate number = (nCandidates + 2 mod 5 ) + 1 = (19 + 2) mod 5 + 1 = 2 i.e. Congress candidate.

If that MP goofs up, Chawala can disqualify 0-4 of the tailing independent candidates to ensure that nCandidates are what is needed to help the Congress guy. Or 5-10 out of 300 cases, they lose the game.

Hence it is possible to put a code in microcode or ROM which takes nCandidates, and favor Congress

-----

How to put such code in microcode

Now if microcode writer knew the ROM code, he knows memory location that stores nCandidates, and ROM location which stores votes of all candidates. And based on nCandidates and its type, it calculates FavoriteCandidateNo. After the poll ends and before count starts, it can add votes to the favorite candidate. Also there was one bit of on-chip flash memory which gets set when nVotes cross 200. And once that bit is set, EVM will become honest for next runs. So now those EVMs are all honest. So no point testing them And microcode cant be read using any equipment.

--------------

Hence I am claim that

1. BEL bought chips from Japanese firm (FACT)

2. Chips were made in CIA foundry and sent to that Japanese company. So BEL unknowingly used "made by CIA chips".

3. CIA made 5 types of chips described above. The trojan was in microcode.

4. CIA told Chawala to send which EVM to which seat. Thus CIA ensured each seat gets 0-300 rigged EVMs, and each rigged EVM in an LS seat is of same type.

5. Each seat had 4 spurious independents from Congress.

6. Some 22 days before poll is the last to to file candidature. So CIA, Sonia, Chawala got Congress candidate's roll number 22 days before poll.

7. Consider seat-A. CIA, Sonia, Chawala had 6 days to fix nCandidates in that seat so that Congress candidate becomes favored candidate for the EVMs in that seat.

7. The spurious guys withdraw at last moment to ensure that nCandidates favors Congress's candidate number. In case of goof up, PM, CM, DC, Chawala use their powers to disqualify 0-4 candidates. Who listens to disqualified independents anyway?

8. The chips CIA made had "BeHonest_Henceforth" flash memory bit. Justone bit of flash in the chip. Now microcode has to set that bit when EVM runs for over 5 hours or when nVotes > 400. If that bit is set, EVM will not add/subtract votes. So now all EVMs are honest. Hence no point testing them.

9. So unless you have equipment to scan every bit in microchip and scan the microcode, there is no way to prove.

10. Hence CIA, Sonia, Chawala rigged elections in way that cant be proved now.

nAgents = 2 (Sonia, Chawala ) + chips

Even the MPs who adjusted nCandidates were mere accessories and not agents. They were told to fix nCandidates to some number because thats what Astrologer suggested for that seat. So even MPs dont know that CIA had chips in the machine that favored them.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 26 Jul 2009 19:21

Rahul Mehta wrote:Technical feasibility of several different ways of rigged EVMs, including RF based, is now accepted. The question is : how to get the rigged EVMs to booths, and then may be only if needed, get them out. The issue is how many people in Govt should be active agents in top, how many should be passive bribe takers and how many external guys (gora from US) will be needed.

Technical feasibility is irrelevent. It is technically feasible to ring ANY voting system, including the paper ballot. It is the difficulty level, or probability of success that counts.

In a subversive operation, there is a comrade-in-arm aka agent and "another is just a corrupt fellow" or accessory. Latter does not have deep nexuses and he does not even know whole plan or even part of it. eg When Dawood organized bomb spree in Mumbai, he needed to get RDX smuggled into India. For this, Tiger Menon , one local smugglers and some 40 more people were comrade in arms, deep into conspiracy. Now some customs guys also came to know that RDX is coming. So they just raised the bribe, and let RDX pass. These customs guys were not colleagues or "into conspiracy" or agents but were just corrupt people who became accessory. This is one feature of corruption - when corruption grows, conspiracies and subversive actions need LESS agents to take risk.

Do you have proof that the RDX was passed in through customs? That is just your imagination. First of all, what is the total volume of RDX used in the blasts? What it would take to smuggle them in along other channels?

So I did NOT say that customs people who let N containers pass were also agents. They need not be made agents. For all, they might think that smuggler YSR is merely smuggling some electronics items into India.

No one smuggles electronics into India anymore. Also customs guys are citizens like you and I. They have politics, they vote, they love and hate the country as much as anyone else. You can't get them to pass 8-16 containers without being an agent

Everyone knows that YSR is the biggest smuggler in AP, and his men bring shipload of goods everyday.

Have you seen the ships come in? Have you bought any smuggled item from YSR? Have you met anyone who did? What proof, or leads you have to make this allegation? It is just your imagination.

Do customs people look what is he smuggling on daily basis? At best, they will only ensure that goods are not RDX. If they are some electronics items, they would not even bother.

No one is smuggling 8-16 container loads. If someone does, it is going to raise a lot of problem.

Similarly, the policeman guarding EVM room is not agent, but just accessory. He gets order from collector to let some guys walk in, replace goods, and in turn the guard gets some cash. Replacement of evidence is routine business in police, administration etc and they dont bother. So he too is mere accessory and not an agent.

That is impossible. The policeman is a citizen, most probably a member of the police association. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make him participate in this without being an agent.

If an operation needs too many agents, it will fail to take off. But if operation needs a few agents, and many accessories, it can indeed work in corrupt setup like India, where accessories are plentiful. eg if Customs was not corrupt, Dawood may have failed to sneak in RDX and have a bomb spree. Or he would need several agents in Customs, which again is difficult. But general corruption ensured that he can sneak in RDX without having any agent in Customs.

Once again, what is the total quantity of RDX used in the blasts? It can very well be brought in via fishing boats. Smuggling it under the nose of customs is impossible.

Now Dileep is portraying every accessory as agent, thus showing that task needs 1000s of agents. And hence he is trying to prove that the task is impossible. Once that semi-lie is discounted, and one classifies participants as agents and accessories, it becomes clear that plan needs only a few agents and rest are accessories, And thus the task of replacing EVMs is possible.

The number of 'accessories' in this particular case is miniscule. Even the truck driver, who will be a member of the union, will know what is going on, and will need to be an agent.

I will re-state how Chawala, YSR replaced EVMs (or could have replaced EVMs) making it clear whether a person involved is a mere accessory or an agent. After that, it will become clear that replacing 60000 EVMs needs very few agents.

Like any other claim of yours, this is built upon totally fallacious premises. Almost everyone in this operation must be an agent. In fact I haven't considered anyone who could be an accessory in my analysis.

Also, while guys claim that "CIA cannot do such a thing in India" because Indian administration is not tha corrupt or CIA is not so strong, please do a reality check. Check what CIA has already accomplished in India. Some 10% land of India , what you call as naxal belt, is nothing but CIA belt. It is a zone inside India, where not even a DIG can go but CIA agent can walk free, send arms and create armies. Not only CIA owns that Naxal-belt, it has bribed mediamen not to highlight the fact that CIA owns that land. So do a reality check on what CIA has already achieved and yet hidden it from most.

I am not saying neither the govt is not corrupt, nor CIA is not strong. Nevertheless, your allegation that the naxal belt is CIA owned is another of your fantasy. It is China that incite the problems, but that is OT.

What I am saying is that CIA have much simpler, easier, more reliable, cheaper methods to influence the govt, than this Rube Goldberg Machines that you build.

How to catch a crane?
Sneak up behind the crane, and put a blob of butter on its head. The butter will melt by the heat of the sun, ooze down and blind the crane. Then you go ahead and catch the crane.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 26 Jul 2009 19:26

Rahul Mehta wrote:.

Lets say nCandidates was used to tell rigged EVM which is the preferred candidate.
<removed waste of bandwidth>

You forgot a simple detail that the order of candidates in the ballot paper is alphabetical, within the block of recognized parties.

The whole argument is stricken from the record your honour!

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 26 Jul 2009 19:57

Dileep wrote: You forgot a simple detail that the order of candidates in the ballot paper is alphabetical, within the block of recognized parties.

I took that into account.

The congress candidate number will no.1 to 5 in 100% cases.

There are 5 types of rigged machines. Type1 to Type5. Say my seat has machines of Type-k

Say I am congress congress candidate. Say my number is p, as comes in alphabetical order of recognized parties)

Then I need nCandidates = a number so that
(nCandidates + k ) mod 5 + 1 = p

----

So have 4 candidates fill the form, and at last moment ask 0-4 to withdraw so that nCandidates is as above.

I did NOT assume that Congress number is always same in all LS seats.. On the contrary, I took all 5 possibilities that Congress candidate number can be from 1 to 5.

----

Lets do scenario. Say seat is X. EC has sent rigged EVMs which favors Candidate_Number = (nCandidates + 1 ) mod 5 + 1

If congress is no. 1 , have nCandidates = 4, 9, 14, 19, ...
If congress is no. 2 , have nCandidates = 5, 10, 15 ...
If congress is no. 3 , have nCandidates = 6, 11, 16 ...
If congress is no. 4 , have nCandidates = 7, 12, 17 ...
If congress is no. 5 , have nCandidates = 8, 13, 18 ...

There are 25 scenarios of (EVM type * Number the Congress candidate gets).

For each 25 scenario, there is one nCandidates between N and N + 4 that would favor Congress, for all N.

OR, Now YOU pick any rigged EVM type number and pick congress candidate number. I will give nCandidates for which that EVM will benefit Congress candidate.

---

So a compact description of rigging can be

1. Chawala had 5 types of rigged EVMs. EVM-k will favor candidate whose roll number is (nCandidates + k) mod 5 + 1 . All seats got rigged EVMs of same type, be 1 to 5.

2. Say Congress's roll number is p , where 1 <= p <= 5.

3. Then Congress has to ensure that, that seat has nCandidates = 5m + 5(p-1) - k , where m is any integer. This can be done in many TRIVIAL ways.

Code: Select all

4. Then that EVM will benefit candidate number   
= (nCandidates         + k) mod 5 + 1
= ((5m + 5(p-1) - k)  + k ) mod 5 + 1 
=  (5m + 5(p-1))             mod 5 + 1  
= p - 1 + 1
= p i.e. the Congress candidate.

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Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 26 Jul 2009 22:02

Many a grandiose plans got stumbled upon simple details.

1. It is impossible to control the number of candidates by "withdrawing at the last moment" because someone else can run in and file a withdrawal as well. You don't have real control there.

2. Rejecting someone is not a solution, because that happens before the withdrawal stage.

This is like shooting someone who is wrestling with the enemy. You may be a good shot, but if something goes wrong, the OTHER GUY wins. Someone taking the herculean effort to get the rest of the stuff in place won't accept this weak link in the chain.

This, apart from the "trivial" problems of getting the right EVMS to the right constituency, and the still "trivialler" problem of getting the EVMs into the system that remain.

You have a fertile imagination Rahul. Maybe you should try writing fiction.

No, waitaminit!! Even Tom Clancy's fiction have some logic, so you will be a goner there too.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 26 Jul 2009 22:05

I have realized that my post count has increased significantly thanks to this thread. Admins, please be kind enough to archive this, so that it survives the periodic cull.

That is the ONLY useful purpose this thread serves anymore!

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 00:00

Dileep wrote:1. It is impossible to control the number of candidates by "withdrawing at the last moment" because someone else can run in and file a withdrawal as well. You don't have real control there.

WRONG. The withdrawal date-time is 3.00pm on a fixed given date, about 15 days before poll. Before withdrawal, DC has to take 5 minute interview. eg he must ask "is anyone focring you to withdraw"? Now what if 6 people get into DC room at 3pm? Then rule is : a) DC will close the room at 3 PM and not allow any candidate b)of the candidates who have entered them room, anyone can cancel before interview. Also, DC can make small exceptions wrt time, but not date. And so if CM like YSR or Union Home Minister firmly asks DC to make small favor about letting a person withdraw, DC will obey and not even know that he is helping Congress in rigging the poll. Even most stubborn and upright DCs make small favors when they dont see and suspect a foul play.

2. Rejecting someone is not a solution, because that happens before the withdrawal stage.

WRONG. Rejection can happen after withdrawals. I myself is witness to it. One of the candidate was rejected right in the meeting to decide symbols AFTER withdrawal date-time was over. The rejection can happen upto 6 pm on withdrawal date. And rejection will be needed ONLY if local MP goofs up big time, which he wont.

In worst case, say I have 4 dummy candidates A, B, C and D, I had to ensure that 3 have to withdraw. Say A, B withdrew and C and D did not. Then I can get affidavit from a guy who proposed C that he never proposed C. Now if C does not object, his form will be canceled.

-----

nCandidates is not difficult to control. , that too if you have unsuspecting DC, and have a union Minister and CM force him to do tiny favor. And say you fail in 5 out 400 cases. Fine, the other guy got benefit. So? You still got benefited in 395 seats.

---

This, apart from the "trivial" problems of getting the right EVMS to the right constituency, and the still "trivialler" problem of getting the EVMs into the system that remain.

Chawala can use a software to decide which EVM will go where and that software will have EVM's rigging type in its database. Thus Chawala can ensure that all rigged EVMs going to Constituency A are of same type.

---

Dileep, All

For 20 pages, you all have been screaming - it is technologically , logistically impossible to rig EVMs using small number of people. Now I have GIVEN a way which is

0. Mathematically sound
1. technologically feasible, be ROM or microcode
2. logistically implementable
3. needs hardly 2-3 people in ECI
4. needs co-operation from may be 2-5 guys in BEL (and not even that if rigging is in microcode)
5. needs NO co-operation from even one District Collectors, any other election staff
6. needs no field agent to send RF or punch in keys or move even a pin
7. no opening of box, no soldering, no replacement of EVMs
and so forth.

So pls show that plan needs more people then I say or math is wrong.

Your insult throwing and sarcasm will not prove that EVMs are unriggable, for I have given a COMPLETE way how EMVs were rigged by Congress in unprovable ways.

-------

Also pls post URLs on how ROM can be read from say 8057 or any such chip. Because I could not find tools to do so by googling.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jul 2009 01:51

Rahul Mehta wrote: For 20 pages, you all have been screaming - it is technologically , logistically impossible to rig EVMs using small number of people. Now I have GIVEN a way which is

...
...
...

Your insult throwing and sarcasm will not prove that EVMs are unriggable, for I have given a COMPLETE way how EMVs were rigged by Congress in unprovable ways.

No my dear sir, you haven't. What you have given is plain theory based on a whole bunch of assumptions (whose validity is not proven either) - what you have given is at most a crude model based on a set of assumptions. Now go ahead and show it in practice and prove that your model indeed mimics reality - which is what I request you to do in my previous post.

I can crack the RSA encryption in polynomial time, in theory (using a Quantum Computer) but I can't do it in practice. See the difference? If you don't then I am afraid you are beyond help.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 06:28

Raja Bose wrote: ..... What you have given is plain theory based on a whole bunch of assumptions (whose validity is not proven either) - what you have given is at most a crude model based on a set of assumptions. Now go ahead and show it in practice and prove that your model indeed mimics reality - which is what I request you to do in my previous post.

Raja Bose,

You are making WRONG statements. I have not made "whole bunch of assumptions". I have made only 3 assumptions and EACH one can be implemented technologically and needs only 2-8 people at top and none at middle level and none at bottom level. These assumptions are :

1. Chawala had FIVE types of rigged machines. Type-k will favor candidate whose roll number is
= (nCandidates + k) mod 5 + 1 . That only needs 2-5 persons in BEL or maybe Japanese company to send rigged chip.

2. Chawala got 100,000 such machines. Some 200 were sent to constituency -A, next 200 were sent to seat-B and so forth in a way that all EVMs in a constituency are of same type. Since CEC is in-charge of dispatching new EVMs to Districts, Chawala can do that using "randomization" SW in CEC , which in reality is programmed to ensure that all seats in in a constituency. All seats were sent rigged EVMs of same type. Thats the only condition for the plot to succeed and that is not hard to ensure for Chawala.

3. In typical election, some 30 people file nominations of which some 20 withdraw. Most withdrawal are at the last day last minute. The DC can rarely ne never follow 3pm deadline to the minute level. Now the local guy can have 4-8 dummy candidates of his own. He needs to have some of these dummies withdraw so that nCandidates = 5m + 5(p-1) - k , p is rank of the Congress candidate and m is any integer, k is EVM type in his LS seat. If there is a goof up, which is very very unlikely as controlling withdrawal is a trivial task, Chawala can use his powers to disqualify 0-4 small time independent candidates to ensure that nCandidates is 5m + 5(p-1) - k . It is possible that out of 400 seats, Sonia/Chawala failed to ensure this in 5-10 seats. That is a small loss compared to gain of 100-120 seats where they ensured nCandidates they wanted.

If RiggingType = 3 and CongressNumber = 2 , Sonia/Chawala do NOT need to ensure that nCandidates is exactly 19. It can be 4, 9, 19, 24, 29 .... any number which is (19 mod 5) = 4. Now In Gandhinagar some 35 people had filled form, of which as many 16 withdrew leaving final count to 19. Each candidate often gets his dummies in for many reasons (more people as polling agent, more people as counting agent , more people as election agent etc) and often also gets them withdrawn. This is so common that does not raise any eyebrows. So ensuring a that final nCandidates is 4, 9, 19, 24, 29 .... is child's play for Sonia/Chawala.

The rigging can be done with one type of rigged EVMs. But then one can notice a pattern between nCandidates and CongressNumber. So Chawala used 5 types of rigged EVMs, so that he/Sonia alone know nCandidates for a given Constituency and no one can see/prove a pattern. As you must be knowing, module of by a prime removes noticeable patterns for all practical purposes.

I can crack the RSA encryption in polynomial time, in theory (using a Quantum Computer) but I can't do it in practice.

The plot I proposed does NOT need any high tech equipment or high tech algorithm and does not need any unknown technology. It is done with an ordinary code in ROM, which any B Tech guy can write. Or can be done by a rigged code in microcode which a person with 10 years of experience in microcode writing can do. And assuring that one seat gets same type of EVMs is trivially easy for anyone at top in CEC. So there is NO "Quantum Computer" like hifi stuff in my theory. Pls avoid throwing exaggeration in my posts which do not even remotely exists.

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2009 06:36

Hrumph.... IB4TL...

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 06:50

Rahul Mehta wrote:
Dileep wrote:1. It is impossible to control the number of candidates by "withdrawing at the last moment" because someone else can run in and file a withdrawal as well. You don't have real control there.
WRONG. The withdrawal date-time is 3.00pm on a fixed given date, about 15 days before poll. Before withdrawal, DC has to take 5 minute interview. eg he must ask "is anyone focring you to withdraw"? Now what if 6 people get into DC room at 3pm? Then rule is : a) DC will close the room at 3 PM and not allow any candidate b)of the candidates who have entered them room, anyone can cancel before interview. Also, DC can make small exceptions wrt time, but not date. And so if CM like YSR or Union Home Minister firmly asks DC to make small favor about letting a person withdraw, DC will obey and not even know that he is helping Congress in rigging the poll. Even most stubborn and upright DCs make small favors when they dont see and suspect a foul play.

It is still a wild shot. All the people should work like robots to co-ordinate. You also need to constantly watch the action, constantly calculating how many withdrew etc.

2. Rejecting someone is not a solution, because that happens before the withdrawal stage.

WRONG. Rejection can happen after withdrawals. I myself is witness to it. One of the candidate was rejected right in the meeting to decide symbols AFTER withdrawal date-time was over. The rejection can happen upto 6 pm on withdrawal date. And rejection will be needed ONLY if local MP goofs up big time, which he wont.

In worst case, say I have 4 dummy candidates A, B, C and D, I had to ensure that 3 have to withdraw. Say A, B withdrew and C and D did not. Then I can get affidavit from a guy who proposed C that he never proposed C. Now if C does not object, his form will be canceled.
[/quote]
That makes it worse. If someone thus gets rejected, you are in deep trouble.

-----

nCandidates is not difficult to control. , that too if you have unsuspecting DC, and have a union Minister and CM force him to do tiny favor. And say you fail in 5 out 400 cases. Fine, the other guy got benefit. So? You still got benefited in 395 seats.

It is not like 5/400, the probability will be much more.

This, apart from the "trivial" problems of getting the right EVMS to the right constituency, and the still "trivialler" problem of getting the EVMs into the system that remain.
Chawala can use a software to decide which EVM will go where and that software will have EVM's rigging type in its database. Thus Chawala can ensure that all rigged EVMs going to Constituency A are of same type.

No. The randomizer is just a calculator that gives random numbers. It doesn't get the EVM serial numbers as input. It only gets simple sequential numbers which are randomized.

For 20 pages, you all have been screaming - it is technologically , logistically impossible to rig EVMs using small number of people. Now I have GIVEN a way which is

0. Mathematically sound

The only 'mathematically sound' way is the RF enabled BU. The current one has too poor "bad hit" probability, so it is unworkable.

1. technologically feasible, be ROM or microcode

The concept of getting tainted microcontrollers into the production line undetected is DISPROVED long time ago. Here this logic is more convoluted, the additional code is going to be even bigger.

2. logistically implementable

You tried to remove the "activation" part, and conveniently forget the major task of getting the machines into the system.

3. needs hardly 2-3 people in ECI

I have PROVEN that you need thousands of people, just to get the machines into the system. The only thing you tried to remove is the "Activation".

4. needs co-operation from may be 2-5 guys in BEL (and not even that if rigging is in microcode)

Absolutely not. All the schemes where BEL is involved have been DISPROVEN already.

5. needs NO co-operation from even one District Collectors, any other election staff

Thoroughly DISPROVEN.

Also pls post URLs on how ROM can be read from say 8057 or any such chip. Because I could not find tools to do so by googling.

It is not a special tool. The tool that programs the ROM can read the ROM. There are hundreds of tools to do that.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 06:53

.

Moderators, Anti-EVM people,

The pro-EVM people have been rejecting trojan theory on the basis that activating trojan in 1000s of EVMs would need 1000s of persons to be sent at booth. I have shown that by having 5 types of rigged EVMs, one does NOT need even one field agent to be sent to booth. One only needs a corrupt CEC with nexus and someone to rig the ROM or microcode code and implement a trivial [(nCandidates + 1) mod 5 + 1] function. And then, at Constituency level, nCandidates needs to chosen from 10s of viable values, which is something Sonia/Chawala can do with their powers, without even telling any candidate or DC.

----

So the pro-EVM people are demanding that this thread should be killed !! I request moderators NOT kill this thread .

And I request all anti-EVM people to mail me at [email protected] , if they want any real field action to get rid of EVMs for good.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 07:33

Dileep,

you are now making completely wrong statements, one after another after another.

Rahul Mehta: The withdrawal date-time is 3.00pm on a fixed given date, about 15 days before poll. Before withdrawal, DC has to take 5 minute interview. eg he must ask "is anyone focring you to withdraw"? Now what if 6 people get into DC room at 3pm? Then rule is : a) DC will close the room at 3 PM and not allow any candidate b)of the candidates who have entered them room, anyone can cancel before interview. Also, DC can make small exceptions wrt time, but not date. And so if CM like YSR or Union Home Minister firmly asks DC to make small favor about letting a person withdraw, DC will obey and not even know that he is helping Congress in rigging the poll. Even most stubborn and upright DCs make small favors when they dont see and suspect a foul play.

Dileep: It is still a wild shot. All the people should work like robots to co-ordinate. You also need to constantly watch the action, constantly calculating how many withdrew etc.

WRONG. Only 4-8 people are there, and they know nothing. Sonia can tell the Congress guy that Astrologer has said that nCandidates must be 14, 19, 24, 29 ... etc. Now inside the room, the Congress candidate has his 4-8 people. The DC in general wont allow latecomers after 3pm. But if CM is a Congress guy and even if DC is anti-Congress and honest, he will not mind "delay condone" of few minutes on CM's request. Also, if you have entered in room does not mean you must withdraw. So lets say I have to ensure that nCandidates is 19. Say current nCandidates is 26. I will keep all my guys at the back of the queue and no one will notice or mind. Now current latest tally is known to EVERYONE in office, it is not kept a secret. Now say final count is 22 and only my 4 guys are in room. Then I ask 3 of my guys to withdraw and bingo the nCandidates is 19.
What makes is easy is that DC is not suspecting and and no one else is suspecting.

Otherwise, rigging functions can be changed to

if 18<= nCandidates <=20 , then favor guy no. 1
if 21<= nCandidates <=24 , then favor guy no. 2
and so forth. IOW, one can keep a range around nCandidates so that manipulating nCandidates becomes easy.

And kicking out a no-name independent on minor issues is child's play for EC. One way is to have an affidavit from any of the 10 proposers that "I did not propose him" before 5pm that day. And this is easy if the candidate who is being kicked out does not mind. And it is EC's discretion to allow or not to allow that affidavit. This issue has been assumed to be minor, and so no one made detailed rules on it.

So your claim that Sonia/Chawala cant maintain nCandidates in a given seat as (5, 9, 14, 19, 24 ...) is frivolous. You are assuming that they cant count.

Rahul Mehta : Rejection can happen after withdrawals. I myself is witness to it. One of the candidate was rejected right in the meeting to decide symbols AFTER withdrawal date-time was over. The rejection can happen upto 6 pm on withdrawal date. And rejection will be needed ONLY if local MP goofs up big time, which he wont. In worst case, say I have 4 dummy candidates A, B, C and D, I had to ensure that 3 have to withdraw. Say A, B withdrew and C and D did not. Then I can get affidavit from a guy who proposed C that he never proposed C. Now if C does not object, his form will be canceled.

Dileep: That makes it worse. If someone thus gets rejected, you are in deep trouble.

Rejection wont happen if the person who is filling form is experienced. And if candidates does not mind, rejection is easy. DC can mutter anything, candidate can say "I accept my cancellation". Case closed.

-----

Rahul Mehta : Candidates is not difficult to control.That too if you have unsuspecting DC, and have a union Minister and CM force him to do tiny favor. And say you fail in 5 out 400 cases. Fine, the other guy got benefit. So? You still got benefited in 395 seats.

Dileep: It is not like 5/400, the probability will be much more.

Much more that 5/400

, eh? How much? 6/400? IYO, local candidates are so dumb that they cant even count

. And 5/400 is the chance local guy goofs up. Only in that case Chawala needs to use his powers to disqualify 0-4 no-name people. Who will notice disqualification of no-name candidates in a state like AP where CM kills dozen people a year and nothing happens? Do YOU know how many people withdrew or got disqualified? And, who the hell was suspecting to begin with? And only when all simple tricks fail, then and then only Congress will lose the benefit. So chances are less than 5/400. It is not even 1/400.

Rahul Mehta: Chawala can use a software to decide which EVM will go where and that software will have EVM's rigging type in its database. Thus Chawala can ensure that all rigged EVMs going to Constituency A are of same type.

Dileep: No. The randomizer is just a calculator that gives random numbers. It doesn't get the EVM serial numbers as input. It only gets simple sequential numbers which are randomized.

Were you inside the ECI when Chawala was dispatching EVM to district.

. How do you know how Chawala decided to send EVM number N to a District No M? You just be very close to Chawala.

For that matter, say ECI is to 100,000 rigged EVMs in Dec-2008. Chawala can ask EVMs to come in 5 lots of 20000 each in way that all 20,000 in any lot are of same type-k. Now say 400 seats need extra EVMs.
So Chawala will ask his staff that

Lot-1 be given to Constituency-001 to Constituency-080 in any order
Lot-2 be given to Constituency-081 to Constituency-160 in any order
Lot-3 be given to Constituency-161 to Constituency-240 in any order
Lot-4 be given to Constituency-241 to Constituency-320 in any order
Lot-5 be given to Constituency-321 to Constituency-400 in any order

Now do any randomization you want. All EVMs in Constituency number N where 80k + 1 <= N <= 80k + 80 will get rigged EVMs of type-k. This will ensures that ALL seats got rigged EVM of same type. and Sonia stooge Chawala knew that type.

---

I have PROVEN that you need thousands of people, just to get the machines into the system. The only thing you tried to remove is the "Activation".

WRONG. You dont need 1000s of people to get a wrong code in ROM or microcode. There is NO machine replacement The trojan is in ROM code or microcode. In fact, 1000 people are not even involved in the task. Does BEL use 1000 people to develop EVM code? Some top guys in BEL are sufficient to insert these trojan codes in ROM. And this trojan can also reside in microcode, if microcode writer knew the ROM code.

==============

It is not a special tool. The tool that programs the ROM can read the ROM. There are hundreds of tools to do that.

Pls post some URLs when you have time. Because I could not find a ROM reader by googling which can read any ROM byte by byte. Worse, some manufacturers claim to have lockbits which will make ROM unreadable by anyone. It is possible that BEL took the chip that has unreadable ROM so that a person who steals EVM cant decipher the code. In any case, pls give some details, when you find some free time,.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jul 2009 07:36

RM ji,

Do you realize that just to defend your assumptions....you have used up a quarter of a page of more assumptions and used words like child's play?

I am sorry but you have missed the gist of my post (and the previous one) by a mile. Of course in India, it is the rumour-monger and the spin-meister who wins, not the educated. As a country we rely on emotions/pseudo-science rather than facts and science to make our judgment hence, I am pretty sure Dileep's fears will come true either through your efforts or from others. When you have a working physical proof of your theories, please post here otherwise what you are saying is as valid as Pakistan's pious pretenses in controlling the terrorist groups.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jul 2009 07:37

Dileep, do you notice that RM's posts are monotonically growing in word size. At this rate, BRF's SQL DB will crash pretty soon (adminullahs take note!)

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 08:06

Raja Bose wrote:RM ji,

Do you realize that just to defend your assumptions....you have used up a quarter of a page of more assumptions and used words like child's play? I am sorry but you have missed the gist of my post (and the previous one) by a mile. Of course in India, it is the rumour-monger and the spin-meister who wins, not the educated. As a country we rely on emotions/pseudo-science rather than facts and science to make our judgment hence, I am pretty sure Dileep's fears will come true either through your efforts or from others. When you have a working physical proof of your theories, please post here otherwise what you are saying is as valid as Pakistan's pious pretenses in controlling the terrorist groups.

I have NOT made more than 3 "assumptions" or steps. I only re-explained them in detail.

As per physical implementation, which of the three steps are you questioning?

In case you notice, Dileep is NOT questioning anymore that Sonia/Chawala can use nCandidates to favor Congress's candidate. So does not question technical part anymore. He is only saying that nCandidates cant be managed at field level, which is a wrong claim.

Raja Bose wrote:Dileep, do you notice that RM's posts are monotonically growing in word size. At this rate, BRF's SQL DB will crash pretty soon (adminullahs take note!)

So when you run out arguments, you want admins to kill threads. Is that so?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 08:24

Rahul,

Programming, reading and verification are activities done on a daily basis by people like me who work on embedded systems. EVERY programmer reads the programmed bytes and verifies the programming. It is a fundamentally known fact, that you may not get URLs for that.

See this link to one of the Data-Io device programmer manual. The examples are given for PROMs, but exactly the same works for microcontrollers.

See this link to an ATMEL device that offers OTP ROM. The technical details of programming and verification is given in the datasheet.

Yes, there is a security bit to prevent reading. If that is 'set' you can no longer read the full content. But the hash can still be read to verify the integrity of the program.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 08:40

Rahul Mehta wrote:.

Moderators, Anti-EVM people,

The pro-EVM people have been rejecting trojan theory on the basis that activating trojan in 1000s of EVMs would need 1000s of persons to be sent at booth. I have shown that by having 5 types of rigged EVMs, one does NOT need even one field agent to be sent to booth. One only needs a corrupt CEC with nexus and someone to rig the ROM or microcode code and implement a trivial [(nCandidates + 1) mod 5 + 1] function. And then, at Constituency level, nCandidates needs to chosen from 10s of viable values, which is something Sonia/Chawala can do with their powers, without even telling any candidate or DC.

----

So the pro-EVM people are demanding that this thread should be killed !! I request moderators NOT kill this thread .

And I request all anti-EVM people to mail me at [email protected] , if they want any real field action to get rid of EVMs for good.

The trojan theory was disproven based on the following facts:

1. The trojan can't be "sneaked" in. The only way to get it in place is by making a custom microcontroller that has an additional core, resulting in significant increase in power consumption and decrease in performance.

2. The notion of CIA owned "Foundry" fabricating the chips, and influencing the Japanese foundry to ship them instead of the real ones is preposterous. First of all, CIA don't own foundries. They will have to use a defense contractor to fab the chips. CIA don't own chip designer facility. Once again they will have to use a defense contractor. Then CIA will have to penetrate from top to bottom of the Japanese fab to get the chips into the system.

Possible only in RahulWorld.

3. The change in the chip is going to be found in the quality test in BEL.

"Activation" is not the only issue. You are using the time tested strawman, and this time, the technique used for "Activation" itself is discounted.

Finally:

How many constituencies had "last minute" withdrawals? How many in YOUR OWN constituency? Get the information, and PROVE that there were "un naturally high" last time withdrawals, and then we will discuss this option.

BTW, I never asked for thread lock. I am having a lot of fun.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 08:49

Rahul Mehta wrote: In case you notice, Dileep is NOT questioning anymore that Sonia/Chawala can use nCandidates to favor Congress's candidate. So does not question technical part anymore. He is only saying that nCandidates cant be managed at field level, which is a wrong claim.

You are using the classical "Strawman" technique here. I have dismantled your allegation that one can use the nCandidates technique by showing its un-reliability. All other arguments against the trojan still stands. You bring up one flimsy argument for the "activation" and even after that is torn into pieces, you forget everything else and claim success.

For you, things have become so desperate.

OK, here is why your scheme won't work:

1. I have repeatedly shown that it is IMPOSSIBLE to sneak a trojan into the microcontroller without ready detection.
2. The argument of CIA designing and fabricating chips itself is "possible only in RahulWorld"
3. The argument of "influence the Japanese fab to swap chips" is "possible only in RahulWorld". It is impossible to beat the Japanese quality system. It is the "culture thing"
4. The success rate of activation by "nCandidates" is less, and any failure, the benefit goes to the other candidate. No politician will take that risk.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 09:37

And here is the killer:

How does the almighty Chawla figure out which CU contain which option? Please explain.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 09:41

Dileep wrote: I have dismantled your allegation that one can use the nCandidates technique by showing its un-reliability. All other arguments against the trojan still stands.

No. You have merely claimed that (Chawala + Local Congress guy) cannot ensure that dummy Congress candidates will not withdraw in a way that ensures nCandidates is one of 15 numbers they want. And I have personally attended this nomination filing and was outside the room when withdrawals happened. And I know that process is so simple that maintaining ensuring that nCandidates numbers is one of the 15-16 numbers (say 4, 9, 14, 19, 24 , .... , 59, 64) is TRIVIAL And thus, nCandidates can be used as input to Trojan.

You entire claim that this scheme fails now rests on following : Congress , that too in states like AP, cannot ensure that exact 0-4 people will withdraw so that nCandidates is one of the 15 numbers they want in 1-64.

This is claim that no person who has ANY field experience in politics would buy. In fact, even I can ensure that the count in my seat is N so that (N mod 5 ) = 2 by filing dummies and having them withdraw at last last moment.

[Quote[ 1. I have repeatedly shown that it is IMPOSSIBLE to sneak a trojan into the microcontroller without ready detection. [/Quote]

It needs only 2-3 guys at top to sneak in a trojan in ROM.

2. The argument of CIA designing and fabricating chips itself is "possible only in RahulWorld"

Anyone with experience can write a the microcode I said is he knows the ROM. And I did not say that CIA designed the chip (you are merely throwing lies now). I only said that "someone" told the chipmaker to change the microcode.

3. The argument of "influence the Japanese fab to swap chips" is "possible only in RahulWorld". It is impossible to beat the Japanese quality system. It is the "culture thing"

So your refutation now assumes that Japanese company is unriggable?

4. The success rate of activation by "nCandidates" is less, and any failure, the benefit goes to the other candidate. No politician will take that risk.

The nCandidates number has to be one the 15 numbers between (1-64). And given that you can pull candidates at last minutes and that CM has some control over DC (who is not even suspecting that nCandidate is trojan input), your claim that "it is too difficult" itself is wrong. Essentially, now you claiming that "YSR in AP is so weak that he cant have 4-8 people to have nCandidates he wants".

Let me put it aptly : pls get in touch with someone who has been thru nomination withdrawal mess. And get full details from him. It is a chaotic process and no one is suspecting. In a chaotic process any player can make changes, but most player wont bother as they dont suspect that one player is using chaos in ghis favor[/b]. If BJP knew that nCandidate was trojan, they would tried add/withdraw candidates to make Congress candidate's life mess. But they did not suspect at all.

Now other that you claims that "Congress/Chawala cant even make nCandidates = one of the 4, 9, 14, 19, 24, ... 64 or whatever series is needed", is there any other claim?

I have shown how it is TRIVIAL for Chawala to send EVMs in way so that ALL rigged EVMs going to one LS seat are of same type. If you want, I can repeat.

.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 09:53

Dileep wrote:And here is the killer:

How does the almighty Chawla figure out which CU contain which option? Please explain.

Sure. Any relevant question is welcome.

Say 100,000 EVMs were made in Dec-2009. Say Chawala and 2-3 guys in BEL are corrupt. Or if 100,000 EVMs were sent to maintainence to Rajagopal and were coming back. Now the person who is sending rigged EVMs and Chawala decided to send 100,000 EVMs in 5 lots, each lot of 20000. And the rigger and Chawala also agreed that

All 20000 EVMs in Lot-1 will be of Type-1
All 20000 EVMs in Lot-2 will be of Type-2
All 20000 EVMs in Lot-3 will be of Type-3
All 20000 EVMs in Lot-4 will be of Type-4
All 20000 EVMs in Lot-5 will be of Type-5

Now say 400 seats need extra EVMs. So Chawala will ask his staff that

Send Lot-1 to Constituency-001 to Constituency-080
Send Lot-2 to Constituency-081 to Constituency-160
Send Lot-3 to Constituency-161 to Constituency-240
Send Lot-4 to Constituency-241 to Constituency-320
Send Lot-5 to Constituency-321 to Constituency-400

Now do any randomization you want. The staff will think that he is randomly sending in the list of 80 Districts. He wont suspect that EVMs are rigged, because he thinks that EVM cant be rigged in a way that can help anyone predictably. He will think of range of Constituency-001 to Constituency-080 as administrative necessity.

So now all EVMs in Constituency will be of SAME type.

Now Chawala knows that lot-1 went to Constituency-001 to Constituency-080. And so he knows that EVMs in Constituency-001 to Constituency-080 will favor [(nCandidates + 1) mod 5 + 1] .

Now Chawala knows that lot-2 went to Constituency-081 to Constituency-160. So he knows that EVMs in Constituency-081 to Constituency-160 will favor [(nCandidates + 2) mod 5 + 1] .

This he knows which Constituency has which type of EVMs, and they are all of same type.

(Compact form : In constituency number N, all rigged EVMs are of type Ceiling(N div 80).)

PS : Not that I mind, but it would help if you keep insults and sarcasms out of you posts]

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 09:59

You didn't get it. How do you know which option rigged chip got into which serial number of CU to begin with. Then how do you know which serial number of CU goes to which constituency?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 10:07

Aside,

You claimed that ALL pages in voter list have pix.

Well, I have 4 pages right before me. They are from voter lists containing the names and pix of the people who had proposed me. And guess what? Three of them have one or more photoless entries. And one of them has 6 photoless entries out of total of 48 entries in that page.That page is Sabarmati Assembly , Part 154/201, Page 35/45 . The page has pix of one of my proposers, Dr Panat.

Now I can scan these pages and post them if you insist. But then you can claim that I had covered the photo while scanning. But in any case, if you want to see these pages, let me know, and I will post them.

My point is : Dont believe ToI, judges, CEC etc all the time.

.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jul 2009 10:11

Dileep wrote:You didn't get it. How do you know which option rigged chip got into which serial number of CU to begin with. Then how do you know which serial number of CU goes to which constituency?

Errrr ...

The EVMs are made in lot. And the chips come in lot. And the chips arr burned in lot.

One would not burn all chips in one go.

Say 20000 chips came
They were burned with Trojan-1
They went into EVM no X to Y
All these EVMs went to Constituency no. 001 to Constituency no. 080

So Chawala does not need to keep EVM number list anymore. He will, but he does not need it for the purpose of rigging. He has ensured that ALL EVMs in Constituency no. 001 to Constituency no. 080 are of type-I by ensuring that all EVMs in first lot had trojan-1.

---

In the Modulo-5 trojan theory, Chawala does NOT need to ensure which EVM goes where. He only needs to know ensure that all 200 EVMs going to a LS seat-N are from same lot. And he need to know the Lot's type.

The manufacture has only to ensure that all chips sent in one lot are rigged with same Trojan, say Trojan-k.

.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 10:22

Rahul Mehta wrote: No. You have merely claimed that (Chawala + Local Congress guy) cannot ensure that dummy Congress candidates will not withdraw in a way that ensures nCandidates is one of 15 numbers they want. And I have personally attended this nomination filing and was outside the room when withdrawals happened. And I know that process is so simple that maintaining ensuring that nCandidates numbers is one of the 15-16 numbers (say 4, 9, 14, 19, 24 , .... , 59, 64) is TRIVIAL And thus, nCandidates can be used as input to Trojan.

You entire claim that this scheme fails now rests on following : Congress , that too in states like AP, cannot ensure that exact 0-4 people will withdraw so that nCandidates is one of the 15 numbers they want in 1-64.

This is claim that no person who has ANY field experience in politics would buy. In fact, even I can ensure that the count in my seat is N so that (N mod 5 ) = 2 by filing dummies and having them withdraw at last last moment.

Read the handbook for ROs. It is clear:

1. The requirement for withdrawal is only that it need be done in person by the candidate, proposer or an authorized agent. There is no need of "did you sign this under threat" verification.
2. A list of withdrawals is never prepared till the deadline is over.
3. Withdrawals can be filed ANY TIME after scrutiny and before the deadline.

So, unless someone sits very vigilantly, counting the accepted withdrawals, it is easy to loose track of withdrawals. There is no continually updated list of withdrawals, unless a corrupted agent watches the action and meticuously keeps track.

You yourself admit the process is chaotic, and you still claim that it is trivial to keep track and count the withdrawals. How can that happen?

1. I have repeatedly shown that it is IMPOSSIBLE to sneak a trojan into the microcontroller without ready detection.
It needs only 2-3 guys at top to sneak in a trojan in ROM.

This point is refuted multiple times. The software is developed through a system, and you can't simply replace the binary image with something much bigger. Also, all work related to the software is done by a team of engineers. No one can mess with that at a single point.

2. The argument of CIA designing and fabricating chips itself is "possible only in RahulWorld"
Anyone with experience can write a the microcode I said is he knows the ROM. And I did not say that CIA designed the chip (you are merely throwing lies now). I only said that "someone" told the chipmaker to change the microcode.

For the nth time..
Microcode is not "written" and then loaded into a processor. It is inserted into the design of the chip and results in hardware circuitry on the chip. If you want to insert any functionality, you need the original chip design files, add and interface your new functionality in design source, do compile, place&route and verification, resulting in an entirely new IC design. This design then must be run in a fab like any other IC design. For all practical purposes, it will be a new chip.

The chipmaker don't do the microcode. The designer of the microcontroller does, and it is part of the chip design. From the POV of the chipmaker, it is an entirely different chip.

3. The argument of "influence the Japanese fab to swap chips" is "possible only in RahulWorld". It is impossible to beat the Japanese quality system. It is the "culture thing"
So your refutation now assumes that Japanese company is unriggable?

Even the CEO can't barge in and alter their operating process. The staff will not accept deviations from the established process under no condition.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 10:22

Rahul Mehta wrote:Aside,

You claimed that ALL pages in voter list have pix.

Well, I have 4 pages right before me. They are from voter lists containing the names and pix of the people who had proposed me. And guess what? Three of them have one or more photoless entries. And one of them has 6 photoless entries out of total of 48 entries in that page.That page is Sabarmati Assembly , Part 154/201, Page 35/45 . The page has pix of one of my proposers, Dr Panat.

Now I can scan these pages and post them if you insist. But then you can claim that I had covered the photo while scanning. But in any case, if you want to see these pages, let me know, and I will post them.

My point is : Dont believe ToI, judges, CEC etc all the time.

.

Please post scans here.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jul 2009 10:36

Rahul Mehta wrote:
The EVMs are made in lot. And the chips come in lot. And the chips arr burned in lot.

One would not burn all chips in one go.

Say 20000 chips came
They were burned with Trojan-1
They went into EVM no X to Y
All these EVMs went to Constituency no. 001 to Constituency no. 080

So Chawala does not need to keep EVM number list anymore. He will, but he does not need it for the purpose of rigging. He has ensured that ALL EVMs in Constituency no. 001 to Constituency no. 080 are of type-I by ensuring that all EVMs in first lot had trojan-1.

---

In the Modulo-5 trojan theory, Chawala does NOT need to ensure which EVM goes where. He only needs to know ensure that all 200 EVMs going to a LS seat-N are from same lot. And he need to know the Lot's type.

The manufacture has only to ensure that all chips sent in one lot are rigged with same Trojan, say Trojan-k.

.

Each of the 5 types will be separate chips from the fab's POV. How would you control and distinguish them? Also, chips come in asynchronously, CU boards gets assembled asynchronously, and the boards gets into the units asynchronously. The chips come in in lots, gets through quality control, and gets into store. They are then drawn into kits of daily assembly lots for issue into board assembly. You can't have control on the process without having very strict intrusive control in the production facility of BEL.

Take the simple matter of mask id and batch code that is stamped on the device. The mask id MUST be different for the "types" because masks are different. If you stamp 5 different mask ids, the fab is required to explain the reason (where none can be given) and give verification test data for each masks. If they are forced into stamping the same mask id (impossible in a fab. Accuracy of mask id is paramount importance in QC of a fab), then you loose all traceability to which type chip you have within the package.

Then there is this issue of despatch. Orders are placed on BEL with instruction to ship certain qty to the constituencies. It needs intrusive control at despatch to ensure type match to a constituency.

If 'god forbid' a mixup happens, ie some machines of type 1 and some machines of type 2 gets sent to one constituency, you loose all bets. This is very easy to happen.

In all, the scheme is unviable.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jul 2009 11:06

Rahul Mehta wrote: As per physical implementation, which of the three steps are you questioning?

I am asking you to do the physical implementation to prove your theories. Without a physical implementation, there is nothing to question, is there? Like I said previously, going by some of your questions, your experience in actual implementation of these systems is questionable hence, what seems plausible to you may not work flawlessly in the real world. Like they say proof of the pudding is in its eating!

Rahul Mehta wrote: In case you notice, Dileep is NOT questioning anymore that Sonia/Chawala can use nCandidates to favor Congress's candidate. So does not question technical part anymore. He is only saying that nCandidates cant be managed at field level, which is a wrong claim.

My dear Sir, I am perfectly capable of having my own independent thought process and so does Dileep (as he has amply demonstrated). What Dileep believes or disbelieves is immaterial to me.

Rahul Mehta wrote: So when you run out arguments, you want admins to kill threads. Is that so?

We need to invite you to Kave Kamplex #420 in the BENIS thread to lighten up.