Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

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Anujan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Anujan »

somnath wrote:the realists in the Paki strategic establishment are realising their limits..
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2009_pg3_4
Here's Ejaz Haidar on the options before Pakistan[/url]..They are already conceding the space...
there is no harm in driving the strategy ahead...
Did the jihadi Ejaz Flagpole haider just throw a towel ? :rotfl: I never thought such a day would come. Before gloating about how big a jihadi his fellow men are, Mr Haider should have seen a decade back that he along with his country men were up the sh1t creek without a paddle (his own words). Karma is a b1atch Mr Haider.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

Another piece on how India's grand destiny lies elsewhere,

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-b ... e/493913/0

Pertinent points (made in this forum before!)
Let’s concede for a moment that the drafting is bloody awful, a real shame. So what? A joint declaration is not a legally binding contract and is as good as the intentions of the two parties. Over the past six decades both sides have signed and tossed many such joint statements, even declarations. Pakistan’s record here is much more spectacular, having nearly repudiated all three substantive accords of the past four decades, the Shimla Accord, Lahore Declaration and then the Islamabad Declaration, signed in the course of three different decades. It is, therefore, utterly pointless to worry about the imperfections, if any, in the draft of the Sharm el-Sheikh joint statement. What matters is the intention behind it,
If it is not, the time is not ripe to make the next moves, and Manmohan Singh has decided to risk his neck again by moving from minor tactics to high strategy. The new engagement with Pakistan must be seen with the Hillary Clinton visit that followed. It is probably a minor matter that possibly for the first time in decades a very high American official broke what, in the State Department, is called the inviolable two-country rule whereby every official visiting one country in the subcontinent must visit the other as well. While India must keep pressure on to ensure that masterminds of 26/11 are given the punishment they deserve, a much bigger, more challenging — but equally, more important — objective is changing the nature of Pakistani society.

While I dont agree with the entire prognosis - I do think that keeping Pakistan in a state of permanent disequilibrium is a worthy objective for India - the fact is that our grand strategy for our place in Asia has to be primary, being bogged down by Pak is not an option..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

C Raja Mohan on similar lines - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pm-vi ... b/494012/0

Again, a "stable, peaceful Pakistan" is not an objective, but the rest of the analysis is unimpeachable..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

Anujan wrote:
somnath wrote:the realists in the Paki strategic establishment are realising their limits..
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2009_pg3_4
Here's Ejaz Haidar on the options before Pakistan[/url]..They are already conceding the space...
there is no harm in driving the strategy ahead...
Did the jihadi Ejaz Flagpole haider just throw a towel ? :rotfl: I never thought such a day would come. Before gloating about how big a jihadi his fellow men are, Mr Haider should have seen a decade back that he along with his country men were up the sh1t creek without a paddle (his own words). Karma is a b1atch Mr Haider.
Well, Ejaz Haidar is one of the sharpest non-miilitary analysts from the other side of the fence - and he is vey much an "establishment" man...These guys are already ceding the strategic space..and looking for tactical crumbs..ISI's plea for direct talks is another result of the same phenomenon...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by arun »

Expectations of an India like nuclear deal with France concocted following Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi’s May 2009 visit ebbs away after the just concluded visit to Pakistan by French Secretary of State for Foreign Trade, Anne Marie Idrac :rotfl: :
The deal that wasn’t

Dawn Editorial
Saturday, 25 Jul, 2009 | 07:49 AM PST |

It was the opinion of this paper that ‘the Pakistan government is counting its chickens before they’ve hatched.’ That assessment was made in mid-May, a few days after the foreign minister proclaimed that a nuclear power deal with France was all but done and dusted.

Even though Paris made no such promises, at least not in public, Shah Mehmood Qureshi insisted that ‘France has agreed to transfer civilian nuclear technology to Pakistan.’ Mr Sarkozy, he claimed, said there was no reason why Pakistan should be treated differently from India in terms of access to nuclear power technology. The French take was altogether different, with Mr Sarkozy’s office clarifying that he had offered to help Pakistan improve its nuclear safety capability. This position was confirmed on Thursday by the French secretary of state for foreign trade, who told the press in Islamabad that her country’s partnership with Pakistan in the realm of civilian nuclear energy would be limited to safety and security issues. Clearly the chickens haven’t hatched, and the government must be censured for acting with undue haste and indulging in hype.

That said, France’s refusal to sell civilian nuclear technology to Pakistan smacks of an obvious double standard. India and Pakistan both conducted nuclear tests in the ‘90s that were widely condemned in the West. A US moratorium on nuclear trade with India, dating back to the ‘70s, was already in place and Pakistan too had been placed under sanctions. Yet, in a major deal, the US has since agreed to sell reactors to India while Pakistan continues to be ostracised by the Nuclear Suppliers Group. :(( ……................

Dawn
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Sanku »

Shekar Gupta does manage to blind with his brilliance every once in a while .
shekhar gupta wrote:
Let’s concede for a moment that the drafting is bloody awful, a real shame. So what? A joint declaration is not a legally binding contract and is as good as the intentions of the two parties. Over the past six decades both sides have signed and tossed many such joint statements, even declarations. Pakistan’s record here is much more spectacular, having nearly repudiated all three substantive accords of the past four decades, the Shimla Accord, Lahore Declaration and then the Islamabad Declaration, signed in the course of three different decades. It is, therefore, utterly pointless to worry about the imperfections, if any, in the draft of the Sharm el-Sheikh joint statement. What matters is the intention behind it,
So after 6 decades of perfidy, we still go and sign documents with them and discuss their intentions!!

And a document which can be easily turned against us by them if their intentions, god forbid, are not as pure as expected?

And this is supposed to be a good thing?

Jai ho.
Last edited by Sanku on 25 Jul 2009 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Anujan »

somnath wrote:Well, Ejaz Haidar is one of the sharpest non-miilitary analysts from the other side of the fence - and he is vey much an "establishment" man...These guys are already ceding the strategic space..and looking for tactical crumbs..ISI's plea for direct talks is another result of the same phenomenon...
somnath-ji,

Please recognize the Ejaz Haider for what he is. He is a lifafa journalist, a jihadi and a RAPE whose only aim in life is to wrap the Jihadi PA policy in good complicated vocabulary. There are two things he does which never fails to get my goat

1. Somehow justify jihadi terrorism, making it appear "mainstream" and never fail to gloat about it. Almost all Pakis and Ejaz inclusive, conduct a Psy-ops aimed at the west about how terrorism is a legitimate tool in the hands of Pakistan due to power asymmetry, unspecified grievances and to achieve vague objectives. They treat it right up there with army, diplomacy and economy. On top of all that he usually puts up a show hinting at powerlessness to control the jihadis along the lines of "If cashmere is not given to us, we would be helpless to stop terrorism" (If you dont give me your wallet, I cant stop my finger from pressing the trigger. Please dont blame me !)

2. All that is fine, except that he frequently forgets the kind of precarious situation Pakistan is in. He actually thinks that Pakistan is a normal functioning nation with economic and diplomatic muscle to sustain the "assymetric policies" that he so frequently gloats about. Pakistan is in the ICU. The lifeline is from Unkil, Saudis and Cheenis. The SDREs are waiting patiently. The more you piss them off, once Unkil and Cheenis find it too costly to support you, SDREs will step in and throw you over the cliff. So please wipe that grin.

What kind of non-military analysis did he ever write ? I have been following all his articles, while I recognize the compulsion of Paki columnists to be patriotic and try to empathize with their country's diplomatic initiatives and domestic compulsions, he definitely does not have the courage or the intellectual honesty of Ayesha Siddiqa Agha, nor the political acumen of Jihadi Sethi. Ejaz is just a male Jalebi with a better vocabulary, admittedly less shrill with a penchant for toilet humor and an obsession with male genitalia.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Dilbu »

ISI spreading terrorism in India, says US
WASHINGTON: A top US military strategist has affirmed ahead of a meeting with the visiting Indian Army Chief that Pakistan has been fomenting terrorism in India and Afghanistan, endorsing New Delhi’s and the Indian Army’s long-held view at a time when the two neighbours are sparring over the issue.

The damning public US indictment of Pakistan’s use of terrorism came from US Admiral Mike Mullen, who told the Arabic television network Al Jazeera hours ahead of his meeting with General Deepak Kapoor on Thursday that in the long run the ISI has to change its strategic thrust, which has been to foment chaotic activity in its border countries.

When the surprised anchor asked, ‘‘What do you mean when you say the ISI has had a strategic thrust to foment chaos in bordering countries?’’ Mullen did not mince words. ‘‘What I mean is that they have clearly focused on support of ... historically, of militant organizations both east and west. I mean that’s been a focus of theirs in Kashmir, historically, as well as in FATA. And I think ... that fundamentally has to change.’’
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Dilbu »

Linking Kasab to JuD part of 'conspiracy' against group: Hafiz Saeed
ISLAMABAD: Hafiz Mohd Saeed, the chief of the banned JuD accused of involvement in the Mumbai attacks, has claimed that the linking of Ajmal Kasab, the lone terrorist arrested for the 26/11 strikes, to his group was part of a "conspiracy" against it.

Released from house arrest only last month after being detained in December, 2008 in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, Saeed made the remarks while addressing a Friday prayer congregation at a mosque in Gujranwala in Pakistan's Punjab province yesterday.

He claimed that the UN blacklisted the Jamaat-ud Dawah (JuD) at India's request following the Mumbai attacks. Saeed also alleged that the linking of Kasab to JuD was part of a "conspiracy" against the group.

Saeed, who claims that JuD is a charitable body, went on to question India's defence spending, saying New Delhi's military budget was equivalent to Pakistan's total annual budget. He also raised the bogey that Pakistan faced an "existential threat" from across the eastern border.


The JuD chief, also the founder of Lashkar-e-Toiba militant group, alleged that the Pentagon had a "secret agenda" to disintegrate Pakistan and the country's current rulers had no capacity to defend it.

Pakistan's rulers should desist from following former President Pervez Musharraf's policies, he added.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Sanku wrote: And a document which can be easily turned against us by them if their intentions, god forbid, are not as pure as expected?
Not only by them, but even by their 3½ friends if the situation warrants for their own interests. And , anyway the Land of the Pure is dirty to the core when it comes to dealing with kufr Bharat.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by arun »

Dilbu wrote:ISI spreading terrorism in India, says US
WASHINGTON: A top US military strategist has affirmed ahead of a meeting with the visiting Indian Army Chief that Pakistan has been fomenting terrorism in India and Afghanistan, endorsing New Delhi’s and the Indian Army’s long-held view at a time when the two neighbours are sparring over the issue.

The damning public US indictment of Pakistan’s use of terrorism came from US Admiral Mike Mullen, who told the Arabic television network Al Jazeera hours ahead of his meeting with General Deepak Kapoor on Thursday that in the long run the ISI has to change its strategic thrust, which has been to foment chaotic activity in its border countries.

When the surprised anchor asked, ‘‘What do you mean when you say the ISI has had a strategic thrust to foment chaos in bordering countries?’’ Mullen did not mince words. ‘‘What I mean is that they have clearly focused on support of ... historically, of militant organizations both east and west. I mean that’s been a focus of theirs in Kashmir, historically, as well as in FATA. And I think ... that fundamentally has to change.’’
The link for the transcript of the complete Al Jazeera interview of Adm. Mike Mullen besides the highlighted question and answer posted by you is available at the first post on Page 21 of this thread (CLICKY)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Anujan wrote: Ejaz is just a male Jalebi with a better vocabulary, admittedly less shrill with a penchant for toilet humor and an obsession with male genitalia.
Let's see if there are usual Indian letters tomorrow in DT.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

SSridhar wrote:
Sanku wrote: And a document which can be easily turned against us by them if their intentions, god forbid, are not as pure as expected?
Not only by them, but even by their 3½ friends if the situation warrants for their own interests. And , anyway the Land of the Pure is dirty to the core when it comes to dealing with kufr Bharat.
Its not Pakistan's intent only, its also India's intent..Irrespective of what we say in a joint statement, the intent and capability are what matter, not in the same order..We are seeing that already - GOI is already talking abt talks only wrt terrorism..Pakis are perfidious, what makes us think we cant be equally nasty if and when the time comes? There are enough exmples in history..
Anujan wrote: Please recognize the Ejaz Haider for what he is. He is a lifafa journalist, a jihadi and a RAPE whose only aim in life is to wrap the Jihadi PA policy in good complicated vocabulary. There are two things he does which never fails to get my goat

1. Somehow justify jihadi terrorism, making it appear "mainstream" and never fail to gloat about it. Almost all Pakis and Ejaz inclusive, conduct a Psy-ops aimed at the west about how terrorism is a legitimate tool in the hands of Pakistan due to power asymmetry, unspecified grievances and to achieve vague objectives. They treat it right up there with army, diplomacy and economy. On top of all that he usually puts up a show hinting at powerlessness to control the jihadis along the lines of "If cashmere is not given to us, we would be helpless to stop terrorism" (If you dont give me your wallet, I cant stop my finger from pressing the trigger. Please dont blame me !)

2. All that is fine, except that he frequently forgets the kind of precarious situation Pakistan is in. He actually thinks that Pakistan is a normal functioning nation with economic and diplomatic muscle to sustain the "assymetric policies" that he so frequently gloats about. Pakistan is in the ICU. The lifeline is from Unkil, Saudis and Cheenis. The SDREs are waiting patiently. The more you piss them off, once Unkil and Cheenis find it too costly to support you, SDREs will step in and throw you over the cliff. So please wipe that grin.

What kind of non-military analysis did he ever write ? I have been following all his articles, while I recognize the compulsion of Paki columnists to be patriotic and try to empathize with their country's diplomatic initiatives and domestic compulsions, he definitely does not have the courage or the intellectual honesty of Ayesha Siddiqa Agha, nor the political acumen of Jihadi Sethi. Ejaz is just a male Jalebi with a better vocabulary, admittedly less shrill with a penchant for toilet humor and an obsession with male genitalia.
I am not saying he is impartial or anything, just that he is the "smartest" establishment analyst I have come across in the media at laeast...For all her merit, Ayesha Siddiqa is an anti establishment analyst, so is Najam Sethi in a way..Ejaz Haidar is a good mirror of what the establishment in PAk are thinking - in this case, it seems they are already ceding the bigger space, and only looking for the tactical crumbs..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

somnath wrote:..Irrespective of what we say in a joint statement, the intent and capability are what matter, not in the same order..
Contrary to what you say, it is action that matters, not intent and capability. In the case of Pakistan especially, the action has also got to be strong, determined and non-stop. We have not seen that.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Avinash R »

Released from house arrest only last month after being detained in December, 2008 in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, Saeed made the remarks while addressing a Friday prayer congregation at a mosque in Gujranwala in Pakistan's Punjab province yesterday.
There goes hopes of WKK brigade about purelanders turning a new leaf and closing the jihad factory. Instead of prosecuting the chief of the terror group which was involved in the mumbai attacks, purelander govt allows him to address rallies and as is his nature terror chief tries to increase tensions by ludricious claims on india's military budget and creating fear in minds of ordinary pakistanis that india and usa are going to attack and destroy pakistan. Piss process at it's finest.

Oh yes do keep holding useless summit level meetings to exchange dossiers while indian citizens are killed by these terror groups fully supported materially and ideologically by the purelander establishment.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by CRamS »

Anujan wrote:http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2009_pg3_5

Did the jihadi Ejaz Flagpole haider just throw a towel ? :rotfl: I never thought such a day would come. Before gloating about how big a jihadi his fellow men are, Mr Haider should have seen a decade back that he along with his country men were up the sh1t creek without a paddle (his own words). Karma is a b1atch Mr Haider.
Before we gloat, and that too about what some 2-bit RAPE says, please read his statement carfully:

ensure, as far as we can, that non-state actors do not use our soil to attack India.

This is not how it should be between neighbours but this is the only way to tell India and the world that Pakistan is left with no option but to selectively engage India; that peace is not just Islamabad’s requirement.
There are no fictional 'non-state actors' attacking India, there are only LeT state actors attacking India, or the full combine LeT/TSPA attacking India as they did in Kargil, which he obfuscates. Abd he knows very well that without state attacks, peace is the de-facto condition as far as India is concerned. So bsically he issuing a threat, and Pakis threat to use terror, the state variety that is, is no empty threat.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by VikramS »

SSridhar wrote:
Sanku wrote: And a document which can be easily turned against us by them if their intentions, god forbid, are not as pure as expected?
Not only by them, but even by their 3½ friends if the situation warrants for their own interests. And , anyway the Land of the Pure is dirty to the core when it comes to dealing with kufr Bharat.
I think I wrote this earlier also, but if there is any element of truth in the Balochistan reference, the 3½ friends are likely to treat India with a bit more deference given that she has some leverage in what happens with their munna. All negotiations happen based on the perception of will and ability to act; this ups India's standing because it shows both the will and the ability to act.


Indians and their leaders tend to think in very moralistic terms without any plan which considers the real ground situation. All this :(( :(( over a piece of paper but very little on how to react, and more importantly act to set an agenda, given the current situation. The ground situation does not change with any of these bakwas documents.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RajeshA »

If India was a country that new how to wield raw power, then Indians both the leadership and 'strategic thinkers' wouldn't have minded any joint statement. But India is not such a country but rather one that grasps at odd straws of 'stands' and 'principles'. And when one is prepared to give up on them also, then how do you hide your cowardice?!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Anujan »

Tales From Rural Pakistan, Lived and Shared

He describes a hidden world of servants and their feudal masters, the powerlessness of poverty and the corruption that glues it all together. These lives, tucked away in the mango groves, grand estates and mud-walled villages of rural Pakistan, are rarely seen by outsiders.

They are intimate portraits that raise some of the biggest questions in Pakistan today. Why does a small elite still control vast swaths of land more than 60 years after Pakistan became a nation? How long will landlords continue to control the law and the lives of the peasants on their land in the same way British rulers did before them?

Daniyal Mueenuddin, a Pakistani-American who lives here, has brought them into focus in a collection of short stories, “In Other Rooms, Other Wonders,” published this year.
So far so good, but the real fun starts here
Mr. Mueenuddin is also a landlord, though he prefers not to think of himself that way. His family’s wealth started in the 18th century with his great-great-great-grandfather, who grew rich as the governor of Kashmir, a territory that is now disputed by India and Pakistan. “I’m not a landlord,” he said, cringing. “I hope I don’t act that way.”

“I find it scary that extremists in Pakistan are trying to force their rigid prescriptions down our throats,” Mr. Mueenuddin said, invoking a comparison with Stalin...But is the Pakistani elite in the same position as the Russian aristocracy before the revolution?

“It’s something that keeps me awake at night,” Mr. Mueenuddin said.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gagan »

We all have been rightly castigating MMS for his Sharm-El Sheikh blunder. What he has done is not expected diplomatically at such high levels. This penchant to become the bigger nation (aka Gujral doctrine) is something that has done India in several times in the past wrt pakistan.

However, much as I critisize MMS, I get the feeling that the Pakistanis are suddenly scared of what MMS and India said at SES. After all the dust raised by this issue has settled, and Pakistan has done its blame-india-for-balochistan game, will come the realization of what a terrible blunder the pakistanis have done.

They don't trust India, and they are deeply suspicious of India's involvement in Balochistan. MMS has just lent their suspicions a looooong lease of life. From now onwards, the pakis will always talk to india, worriedly looking over their shoulders at balochistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by derkonig »

Gagan wrote:We all have been rightly castigating MMS for his Sharm-El Sheikh blunder. What he has done is not expected diplomatically at such high levels. This penchant to become the bigger nation (aka Gujral doctrine) is something that has done India in several times in the past wrt pakistan.

However, much as I critisize MMS, I get the feeling that the Pakistanis are suddenly scared of what MMS and India said at SES. After all the dust raised by this issue has settled, and Pakistan has done its blame-india-for-balochistan game, will come the realization of what a terrible blunder the pakistanis have done.

They don't trust India, and they are deeply suspicious of India's involvement in Balochistan. MMS has just lent their suspicions a looooong lease of life. From now onwards, the pakis will always talk to india, worriedly looking over their shoulders at balochistan.
Gagan,
Pakis are first rate delusionals and no amount of convincing by India will make them see sense. Pakis 'see' the Indian hand in Blowchistan freedom struggle right since the days of IG. So, joint stmt or not, the Pakis will continue with their allegations. Didn't they keep harping about the 'terror sponsorship' by the Indian consulates in Afghanistan & Iran before the S-e-S debacle?
What happened at S-e-S was an outright surrender by those leading the GoI to paki terms and nothing can be more shameful for any right thinking citizen of India. It is unlikely that any positive will come out of the joint statement. Pakis will remain as convinced of YYY conspiracies as ever.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Posted for entertainment value only
Water Grabber India & Nuclear War - II
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Kakkaji »

Swapan Dasgupta's take in today's dailypioneer.com:

Not just heroics, it’s our history
Britain and, for that matter, Europe’s obsession with history has been a source of amusement to Indians. Many of our dynamic countrymen cannot understand why anyone would spend their leisure hours reading about the past when the time could have been so much better utilised in self-improving pursuits like reading motivational books by management gurus.

I refer to the European passion for the past in the context of a brief flicker from contemporary history in the form of another remarkable confession by Gen Pervez Musharraf to the indefatigable Karan Thapar last week. Ten years after the bitter war for the control of the hills that overlook the road to the Kashmir Valley, Musharraf has finally admitted what was known all along in India but never formally acknowledged in Islamabad: That the Pakistani Army was very much a participant in the conflict that could just as easily have escalated into a full-scale India-Pakistan war.

Predictably, the cocky Musharraf is not in the least apologetic of his role in the deaths of at least two thousand young soldiers from both countries. In his view, it was the Pakistani Army’s audacity in Kargil that resurrected the Kashmir issue. Even though Pakistan was coerced into a humiliating retreat by President Bill Clinton, Musharraf believes that the country has gained in the long-term. The threat of a war involving two nuclear weapon states has contributed to Western pressure on India to meet Pakistan half-way on Kashmir. Although India has so far resisted Uncle Sam’s intrusive diplomacy, the likes of Musharraf firmly believe that it is only a matter of time.

This may not be the occasion to assess the veracity of Musharraf’s boast that he advanced the Pakistani national interest by waging the Kargil war. All that can be said is that prima facie, it doesn’t seem that the old guerrilla commander’s contention is entirely fanciful. Kargil didn’t revive an old secessionist movement. The credit for that goes to Rajiv Gandhi for the rigged election of 1987, the kidnappers of the then Home Minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed’s daughter in 1989 and the men who masterminded the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from the Kashmir Valley. What the Kargil war did was to elevate a covert Pakistani role in Jammu & Kashmir into an overt one. Musharraf showed to the world that there are enough desperate forces in Pakistan willing to subvert an elected Government and trigger war with a neighbouring country. The nearest historical analogy for what Musharraf did was the privately-funded Jameson raid which led to the three-year Anglo-Boer war in South Africa in 1899.

I suspect that Pakistan is going to lap up Musharraf’s version of what was hitherto regarded as a colossal “misadventure”. In a very clever way, the General is not merely preparing the ground for a possible political comeback but setting the parameters for his own rehabilitation in Pakistani history.

And what about India where history has been at a permanent discount, overtaken by either metaphysical escapism or commerce (actually, both combine rather well)? Predictably, the commemoration of Kargil has been confined to the appreciation of the heroism and martyrdom of those soldiers who died for India. But there has been less scrutiny of the mindset that created the conditions for the death of our young soldiers. When Britain discusses Blunt and Chamberlain as part of their date with history, Indians should listen carefully. They will find striking parallels with Kargil.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Kargil didn’t revive an old secessionist movement. The credit for that goes to Rajiv Gandhi for the rigged election of 1987
Elections had nothing to do with it. The ISI planned the jihad long before.
Jehad-e-Musalsal or The Unending Struggle,which was formally launched in Islamabad on June 25. In his book.,Khan claims that the ISI first established contact with the JKLF in early 1987 through the organisation's senior leader Dr.Farook Haider.
The JKLF was to recruit militants in Indian administered Kashmir,bring them across the Line of Control(LoC) and deliver them to the ISI for training. Besides training the ISI as also to provide weapons and logistical support to facilitate the launch of those militants in Indian administered Kashmir to spark an insurgency.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by pgbhat »

Jihadi RAPE bashing DIE :-? Ejaz Haider getting his knickers in a twist. :lol:
Please note how Ms Nomani uses the narrative about her rather pathetic inner demons to generalise about Islam, in the process also conflating Islam and the expression of a local culture in matters relating to gender, marriage etc.

Asra Nomani is a tragic figure. My heart goes out to her.

Just in case someone objects to my classification of Ms Nomani as a tragic figure in the classical sense, let me say that today’s world cannot afford tragedy in the Aeschylean, Sophoclean, Euripidean or even Shakespearean sense. Tragedy in this post-modern world is all about our common pathetic selves.

But let me introduce Ms Nomani briefly.

She was born in a Muslim family in Hyderabad (India), moved to the United States when she was four, studied there, got into journalism, did well professionally, thought “deep and hard” about Islam and the place of women in it, has used the post-9/11 focus on Islam to good advantage, written a couple of books, revolted against the mosque in her hometown of Morgantown in West Virginia, and is generally known in Pakistan to be the woman who was friends with Daniel Pearl.

This is of course a very brief CV; for more details on Ms Nomani’s exciting life and inner struggles, please go to http://www.asranomani.com/Biography.aspx

Why Ms Nomani? Recently, she wrote an article, “My Big Fat Muslim Wedding”, which had me in tears. That’s what tragedy is supposed to do. But since we are in no sense in the classical mode, I shall laundry-list Ms Nomani’s tragic life for you.

* She was born in a Muslim family [tragic enough] and born a woman [even more tragic].

* As she says: “There’s a photo of me as a toddler, my sullen face peeking out from layers of bridal finery — part of a tradition that sets Muslim girls on the path to marriage”. [By this benchmark, most families in Pakistan violate the tradition. That includes mine.]

* “To me, abiding by the dictates of my culture and religion meant finding a love that would be halal...according to Islamic law”. [How tragic. Muslim scholars should begin to bless non-halal weddings and relationships. And why not. If rabbis can bless wine to make it kosher, surely we can adopt this practice too.]

* “I never dated, and I never went to the junior high school dances. My senior year at Morgantown High, standing by my red locker, I politely refused the class president when he invited me to the prom. ‘I can’t,’ was all I could say. And I couldn’t. It would be haram — unlawful”. [Jeez! I can almost visualise the tragedy as it unfolded in front of that red locker on that fateful day.]

* “Eventually,” she says, “I crossed the sacred boundaries [actually she wants to say crossed over into high civilisation] by falling in love with a student at West Virginia University... The day we consummated our relationship, I cried, having surrendered my virginity before my wedding night.” [Ms Nomani continued to go out for four years with this gent which, if you ask me, is quite a lot after the initial act of crying at the time of “surrendering her virginity”.]

* “Then, during graduate school in Washington, D.C., I dated a blond surfer from California and celebrated Christmas with his family.” [Surfers are just what you need for surfing and the more blond the better.]

* “A year later, I found myself in Chicago, smitten with a Lutheran from Iowa [am I surprised!]. One spring Saturday afternoon, I sat on a bench in Lincoln Park with him after almost three years together. ‘I love you,’ he said. ‘I want to marry you.’ He should have been Mr Right. I loved him deeply. But I looked away.” [Gosh! This is too much tragedy. But please also note here the problem with “love” which in Ms Nomani’s case, more than rhyming with the heavens above, looks like something made in Hong Kong.]

* “Not long afterward, I received a call from a guy I’d known at grad school. He was Pakistani and Muslim, but living in America, fully assimilated into the culture. My heart leapt. We talked and flirted deep into the night.” [But of course!]

* “On Valentine’s Day in 1992, we met for dinner. An employee of the World Bank, he was a former cross-country runner, just like me, with two cats — again, just like me. A week later, we got engaged.” [Yay!]

* Wedding bells toll for Ms Nomani, who as you might have noticed, went through many post-modern tragic circumstances, torn asunder by forces of cosmic proportions. But happiness was still elusive for our heroine.

* “As my wedding flowed into my honey-moon in Paris and the first few weeks of marriage, some issues I’d ignored throughout our brief romance started to haunt me... We would have rather passionless, perfunctory sex, and then he’d roll over, turn his back to me, and fall asleep. [These Muslim men; don’t they know they are supposed to hug the woman for two hours after sex. And if they can’t, they better opt for a good dump instead. At least no one is expected to hug that for two hours after being done.]

* “When I would try to gently talk with him about it, he’d cut me off. He had been raised in a family where it’s just not the sort of thing you discuss.” [Excuse me? I thought this guy was “fully assimilated into the culture”. But no, He couldn’t be. After all he was a Muslim, an irreversible tragedy.]

* The marriage didn’t last. Says Ms Nomani: “Later at my office, I got a piece of mail, which my husband had signed with the three words ‘Talaq, talaq, talaq,’... According to traditional interpretation, a Muslim man has to simply utter this word three times to divorce his wife.” [Ms Nomani’s knowledge of Islamic tradition is impressive indeed!]

* “This year... I had met a wonderful man in Washington, D.C...One night, he played me “When Love Is New” by Dolly Parton and Emmy Rossum. The bluegrass music hit a chord with the West Virginia girl in me. [Tears of happiness are rolling down my eyes.]

* “On Valentine’s Day, we climbed over the boulders leading to Sky Rock... Then he knelt down in front of me and, gazing up into my eyes, said, ‘I love you. Will you be one with me?’ I smiled and spoke from my heart: ‘Yes.’ And snowflakes fell like confetti from the sky.” [Lollywood, please match the mushiness of this.]

Dear reader, if you haven’t worked out Ms Nomani’s tragic life, let me explain.

<SNIP>.

Considering that she had moved in with him before the marriage, and given her own account of various other encounters, and of course the fact that he was a cross-country runner, just like her, and had two cats, just like her, it is a tad difficult for me to believe that she consummated the relationship only after the formal vows had taken place. In which case, I don’t think I am wrong in concluding that the perfunctory sex and rolling over by hubby dear had to do with boredom than a Big Fat Muslim Wedding! He was like Ms Nomani!

But what it adds up to is sinister, and deliberately so.

Please note how Ms Nomani uses the narrative about her rather pathetic inner demons to generalise about Islam, in the process also conflating Islam and the expression of a local culture in matters relating to gender, marriage etc. It would have been perfectly fine if she had written this as an expression of herself: about how she has a tendency of flirting, falling in love every three years, getting bored and moving on. I have nothing against that. She can opt for polyandry for all I care. The perfidy lies in the fact that she has noticed how any narrative that can be cleverly selected and twisted to denigrate Islam and Muslim societies sells in the post-9/11 world and uses that to her full advantage.

That is pathetic.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by pgbhat »

DT editorial
Anyone in Pakistan will tell you that the crisis of Balochistan will not be resolved by putting up a few checkposts on the Balochistan-Afghanistan border. While it is true that India is fishing in troubled waters in the province, its problems have not been created by it. The mention of Balochistan in the recent Indo-Pak joint statement at Sharm al Sheikh may have sent a shiver of unfamiliar triumph up Islamabad’s spine, but it has not led to any softening of the Indian attitude. In fact quite the opposite has happened.
Mr Rehman Malik is hamstrung also by nationalist backlash against his soft approach towards India. If you want to get ahead in Pakistan these days, be hawkish with India. But expect no respite from New Delhi, either. Balochistan needs to be tackled but before the talks with the Baloch begin the terrorists have to be taken care of. The media is hostile to the PPP government and will accept only mid-term elections as a precondition before it is helpful. The petroleum minister in Islamabad is already thinking of taking the Iranian gas pipeline through the sea. 8)
SECOND EDITORIAL: And now JSQM has a score to settle

Riots have broken out in most of the Sindhi-dominated areas of Karachi, Hyderabad and rest of the Sindh province after the killing of a leader of the Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz (JSQM) in a street of Karachi. Four hitmen, riding two motorcycles where double-riding is banned, have assassinated the Thatta chief of JSQM, Mr Mushtaq Khaskheli. After that people torched cars in Hyderabad, blocked road traffic and attacked markets that refused to close down in Karachi.

The JSQM leaders were on their way to a part of Karachi to protest the failure of the police to arrest the killers of one of their workers. They were in a procession of ten cars when the front car was subjected to Kalashnikov fire. In return fire from the JSQM security men, one assailant was killed and another captured wounded. The JSQM finance secretary, Mr Waqqas Memon, alleges the two killers were both sub-inspectors and belonged to the intelligence agencies.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Rahul M »

wow ! he is raving ! is this the same guy discussed above as the intelligent establishment guy ? :eek:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by pgbhat »

Guess whose letter got on DT? 8) Posting the letter in full. :)
Sir: It is an extreme viewpoint that Mr Ejaz Haider has taken in his article “Drop the talks façade”. (Daily Times, July 25) He is right that “this is not how matters between neighbours should be”, but his paragraph on how Pakistan can deal with India clearly shows why. Mr Haider is talking of “concessions” from India but we Indians are unable to understand what these concessions are and why India should give them at all. India has a huge border problem with China but we do not seek any concession from them, even after the 1962 debacle. Mr Haider’s perception that Indians refuse to concede because they feel Pakistan is a failing state is also incorrect. Clearly, Pakistan is not a failing state and Indian refusal to concede would be just the same if Pakistan was a superpower. :rotfl: {awesome}

As for the India-US relationship that seems to upset Mr Haider so much, that relationship is not based on any equality; India cannot be equal to the United States. The relationship, however, is predicated on realism. For example, many satellites that carry US components are disallowed from using Indian launchers simply because there is no Technology Safeguards Agreement (TSA). The US has similar agreements with all space agencies that send American payloads into space. It is incorrect to say that India will get ICBM technology because of this. Having developed the prowess to send two-ton satellites into geosynchronous orbit as well as payloads to the moon, which required both large rocket energy and extremely high accuracy of orbital injection — essential building blocks of ICBMs — India does not need any more input to build ICBMs. The agreements signed between the US and India simply acknowledge Indian strengths and make good business sense for both countries.

SUBRAMANYAM SRIDHARAN
India
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by pgbhat »

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Chinmayanand »

Link
Today Pakistan is very feverish and very ill. Our country is in deep, deep trouble. Jinnah's Pakistan has been hijacked by people begrimed in corruption. What is worse, they have turned a sovereign, independent country into an American colony and a "rentier state." The present leadership is taking Pakistan to a perilous place. The course they are on leads downhill. It appears as if we are on a phantom train that is fast gathering momentum and we cannot get off.
The writer is a former federal secretary.{and pissed at not getting any rent himself}
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

What is worse, they have turned a sovereign, independent country into an American colony and a "rentier state."
From the very first post in this thread (excerpt from the 1949 book by Margaret Bourke-White)
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html
In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam's thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. "Surely America will build up our army," they would say to me. "Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in." But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. "No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan."

This hope of tapping the U. S. Treasury was voiced so persistently that one wondered whether the purpose was to bolster the world against Bolshevism or to bolster Pakistan's own uncertain position as a new political entity. Actually, I think, it was more nearly related to the even more significant bankruptcy of ideas in the new Muslim state -- a nation drawing its spurious warmth from the embers of an antique religious fanaticism, fanned into a new blaze.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gagan »

Highlited the important parts of the story. This is too good to be true.
durgesh wrote:Link
Today Pakistan is very feverish and very ill. Our country is in deep, deep trouble. Jinnah's Pakistan has been hijacked by people begrimed in corruption. What is worse, they have turned a sovereign, independent country into an American colony and a "rentier state." {Standard BRF Lingo} The present leadership is taking Pakistan to a perilous place. The course they are on leads downhill. {As in downhill skiing? :wink: } It appears as if we are on a phantom train that is fast gathering momentum and we cannot get off.
The writer is a former federal secretary.{and pissed at not getting any rent himself}
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Anujan »

Rahul M wrote:wow ! he is raving ! is this the same guy discussed above as the intelligent establishment guy ? :eek:
the intelligent establishment guy is applying all his intelligence towards finding out if one Ms Nomani, who is Daniel Pearl's friend had sex with her pakistani husband before marrying him. :rotfl: Has even written an article about his findings and suspicions. As usual he couldnt resist the toilet humor. From the article:
And if they can’t, they better opt for a good dump instead. At least no one is expected to hug that for two hours after being done
Well let me repeat. Ejaz is just a male Jalebi with a better vocabulary, admittedly less shrill with a penchant for toilet humor, crude sexual allusions and an obsession with male genitalia :P

I copyrighted it right here in BRF :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Lalmohan »

Dilbu wrote:Linking Kasab to JuD part of 'conspiracy' against group: Hafiz Saeed
Saeed also alleged that the linking of Kasab to JuD was part of a "conspiracy" against the group.

Saeed, who claims that JuD is a charitable body, went on to question India's defence spending, saying New Delhi's military budget was equivalent to Pakistan's total annual budget. He also raised the bogey that Pakistan faced an "existential threat" from across the eastern border. [/b]
so let me see... hafiz's pearls of wisdom:
1. deny identity of your own dead and captured soldiers
2. question matters of national strategic interest relevant to the agrarian-military-complex
3. re-iterate the causus-fundamentalis of the nation state

i wonder which year hafiz graduated from kakul and who his batch mates were? sarkari jehadi at the least, jernail in mufti - much more likely!

let there be no further doubt about the role of LeT within the Terrorist Military Dictatorship of Jehadistan!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by kittoo »

pgbhat wrote:Jihadi RAPE bashing DIE :-? Ejaz Haider getting his knickers in a twist. :lol:
Please note how Ms Nomani uses the narrative ....the post-9/11 world and uses that to her full advantage.That is pathetic.
I am at many different feelings here which are all strange :-? , but one thing for sure, I dont like this Asra Nomani either.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

Anujan wrote:
Rahul M wrote:wow ! he is raving ! is this the same guy discussed above as the intelligent establishment guy ? :eek:
the intelligent establishment guy is applying all his intelligence towards finding out if one Ms Nomani, who is Daniel Pearl's friend had sex with her pakistani husband before marrying him. :rotfl: Has even written an article about his findings and suspicions. As usual he couldnt resist the toilet humor. From the article:
And if they can’t, they better opt for a good dump instead. At least no one is expected to hug that for two hours after being done
Well let me repeat. Ejaz is just a male Jalebi with a better vocabulary, admittedly less shrill with a penchant for toilet humor, crude sexual allusions and an obsession with male genitalia :P

I copyrighted it right here in BRF :mrgreen:
You dont have to agree with what Ejaz Haidar is saying..But he is part of the establishment media of Pakistan...So what he says is an important mirror of what the Paki "establishment" is thinking..He was among those who started blasting Musharraf seemingly at the "right time"...there is no point reading people who conform to our ideas and stereotypes - a perspective from the "other" side is more critical than a "prayer to the converted", more so if that perspective has the prescience of official policy!

there are few such "establishment" analysts in Pakistan - Ikram Sehgal, Asad Durrani, Shireen Mazari and Ejaz Haidar are the few I would track for public source info on the thinking of the Paki establishment...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

For all those fearing "internationalisation" of Balochistan - ironically it is Pakistan who needs to worry mre...Which country likes to "intenationalise" its "internal" issues? There is a reference to certain "disturbances" in Balochistan in this statement..Next time, for certain Indians will ask for a reference to the "root cause" of Baloch disaffection if the issue is allowed to remain.,Very soon, Balochistan becomes an issue to be discussed between India and Pakistan - not a bad conclusion for India!
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