INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Jul 2009 05:07

This report talks of a bigger 124 m long submarine. Chankian obfuscation to the hilt

deer leader will start to look for launch of Arihant in Mangalore, Madras.

26 Jul 2009, 0104 hrs IST,

HYDERABAD: Prime minister Manmohan Singh will launch India’s first indigenously designed and built nucleared-powered submarine at Eastern Naval
Command headquarters, Visakhapatnam, on Sunday. The submarine was named INS Arihant and it is the first of the three vessels of its kind to be built in the country.

India had embarked on its quest for a nuclear submarine in 1982. Nuclear-powered submarines are considered better than conventional diesel counterparts as they can go deeper and faster and spend longer time at sea. With this, India has joined the elite club of countries such as Britain, China, France, Russia and USA.

The PM will visit the naval base and launch the sea trials of the prestigious submarine INS Arihant, built at a cost of US $ 2.9 billion under Advanced Technology Vessel Programme. Arihant is expected to go into full service in two year’s time.

The deployment of the submarine will allow India to develop a nuclear weapon strike capability from the sea, and maintain its authority over the shipping lanes of the Indian Ocean. The 124-metre vessel has a single shaft nuclear power plant built indigenously.

The nuclear reactor has been developed at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam. The submarine has under-water ballistic missile launch capability that will give India a distinct advantage over Pakistan. The ballistic missile was tested last year.

The ambitious project is entirely indigenous and it opens the door for deploying nuclear weapons in the ocean. At present, only a handful of countries have the technological capability to produce such a vessel. Arihant is based on the Russian Akula-1 class submarine, which powered by a single pressurised water reactor.

And it says Arihant is based on the Russian Akula-1 class submarine, which powered by a single pressurised water reactor.

BTW US $ 2.9 billion cost of this submarine translates to ~Rs. 13,000 Cr perhaps it is talking of the cost of this project.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jul 2009 05:15

Arun_S wrote:This report talks of a bigger 124 m long submarine. Chankian obfuscation to the hilt

Looks like they want to continue the confusion between a sub with 12 (4 K-X *3) K-15 vs one with 36 (12 K-X *3) K-15.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Jul 2009 05:26

PTI news also states 6000 tonnes.

PTI: PM to launch INS Arihant in Visakhapatnam tomorrow

STAFF WRITER 18:19 HRS IST

Hyderabad, July 25 (PTI) The Indian Navy is all set to join the global elite club tomorrow when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh formally launches the indigenously-built nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant at the Naval Dockyard of the Eastern Naval Command in Visakhapatnam.

Prime Minister will arrive at the ENC's airbase INS Dega in Visakhapatnam by a special IAF plane along with his wife at 11 am and drive straight to the Naval Dockyard to commission INS Arihant into the sea.

The 6000-tonne submarine will first be put on sea trials for two years before being commissioned into full service.

In the two years, the submarine will also undergo harbour trials of its nuclear reactor and other systems.

Tomorrow's launch of the submarine coincides with the "Vijay Diwas" marking India's triumph over Pakistani intruders in Kargil.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 26 Jul 2009 06:01

Rahul Shukla wrote: Who selects the coconut? What are the GSRQ specs of the coconut? Was this coconut received from a single-source vendor? Did the Navy pay too much for the coconut? Is this an indigenous coconut? What steps are being taken by the PMO & DOD to ensure the coconut cracks on the first try? Has Mrs. Singh practiced coconut cracking beforehand?

Too many questions... no answers!

All I want to know is CAG is involved in every step of the way..

It would be very irritating if we learn 4 years later that we spent Rs 50 more on the coconut!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 06:17

Many many years ago, I got to see the launch of a few LCU craft of the IN at goa shipyards.

First the curtain covering the name of the ship is uncovered.

Then the coconut was broken on the hull directly. The coconut is proudly presented on a tray, and the admiral's wife gets to break it on the sub.

On two out of two occasions, the coconut had to be hit 2 to 3 times on the hull before it broke. Lots of laughs when this happens. I for one was worried that the hull of the ship might get damaged, but not to worry, the steel was good old indian steel, extremely strong.

The national anthem starts almost immediately as the ship used to slip into the waters on the rail tracks.

Here I'll bet Mrs Kaur will take at least two attempts to break the coconut, when the food gates will be opened.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 26 Jul 2009 06:29

T.S Subramaniam says " India is the fifth country to build a nuclear-powered submarine, after Russia, the U.S., France and China. " What about UK. Did they get the technology completely from the US?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 06:42

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(S101)

Although the plan was to build all-British nuclear submarines, much time would be saved by accepting the American technological lead and taking advantage of US nuclear technology. The excellent relations between Admiral Mountbatten and US Navy Chief of Naval Operations Arleigh Burke, expedited obtaining that help. This was despite Rear Admiral Hyman Rickover, in charge of the American naval nuclear power program, being set against any transfer of technology, indeed, Rickover prevented Mountbatten inspecting USS Nautilus. It was not until a visit to Britain in 1956 that Rickover changed his mind and withdrew his objections [1]. Although Rickover wished to supply the third generation S3W reactor of the Skate class, Mountbatten exerted his influence and the entire machinery system for an American Skipjack class submarine, with its fifth generation S5W reactor, was obtained[1]. This was known as the "American Sector" (see 1958 US-UK Mutual Defence Agreement). The hull and combat systems of Dreadnought were of British design and construction hull, although British access to the Electric Boat Company influenced the hull form and construction practices

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 06:48

This no picture....no camera no mobile is needlessly being paranoid , any way when she hits water for trial she will be photographed so just a matter of time.

So hope they don't act childish and deny media pictures of the event.

Looking forward for a great Sunday

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Jul 2009 06:55

Austin saab: I disagree. Photograph of a Submarine above water is of precious intelligence value compared to photo of the same sub when floating in water. What is below waterline is precious information.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2009 06:57

The future has not been written

There is no fate but what we make for ourselves

-- Sarah Connor

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 07:00

I don't think it is the arihant they are worried about so much. Not much intel can be gained by the outward surface of the sub. (Ok a lot of intel for that matter)
But I think there is also concern that the insides of the Ship Building Complex not be visible. As pkduva-ji was mentioning, the machinery in there is of a highly sensitive nature.

Also the SBC is too large to accomodate just one sub.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 07:01

Nuclear submarine to hit water today

The media has been told expressly that no photography will be allowed tomorrow.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 26 Jul 2009 07:06

It is time to update the BRF ATV page as well:
Advanced Technology Vessel

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 07:10

I Know that many IN warships are NBC proof, which means that they have reverse osmosis plants in them.

I wonder if the ATV has a reverse osmosis plant and can generate oxygen from it. This sounds like a no0b question, but I happen to know, that the DE subs don't have this. Though this is supposed to be a standard equipment.

We don't know what the crew comfort levels are like. Hot bunking in the ATV too?
The russians had built a sauna in the Typhoon class and the Oscar class.

The newer American subs use a periscope which is actually a group of cameras all around to get a 360 degree look in one go. The bridge of their subs looks like microsoft's software center will LCDs all over.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jul 2009 07:15

^ RO plants are there onboard naval vessels but not for extracting oxygen (you cant do that with RO) , it is meant for extracting fresh water for housekeeping functions.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 07:19

Of course they are for extracting oxygen on subs. The distilled water is electolyzed to give oxygen for breathing. It is just that DE subs don't have the space and the electrical power to run this level of power hungry operation.
This is why nuclear subs are said to have unlimited endurance limited only by the food running out. They don't have to surface for air.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 26 Jul 2009 07:25

The sub is covered with sonar absorbing anechoic rubber tiles. If Ms.Kaur isn't careful (and I have visions of the old Tom and Jerry cartoon where Tom tries to hit a tyre with a hammer), the coconut is going to bounce back and knock someone out

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 26 Jul 2009 07:32

sounds like sub reactors are an ideal power source for KALI kind of system if it is ever integrated on attack SSNs

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 07:35

Suraj wrote:The sub is covered with sonar absorbing anechoic rubber tiles. If Ms.Kaur isn't careful (and I have visions of the old Tom and Jerry cartoon where Tom tries to hit a tyre with a hammer), the coconut is going to bounce back and knock someone out

I've already drawn it, dare not post it.

Please tell us more about KALI. There seems to be very little information available on the net.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jul 2009 07:38

RO plant only extracts relatively fresh water from sea water it is then distilled to obtain fresh water ; it only then a EOG machine can be used to extract Oxygen . RO ,distillation and EOG plants are a standard equipment onboard all USN submarines , even the Borei and the Akula have them it is obvious same is the case with ATV too.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 07:40

Is there an oxygen generator plant on board any Indian Navy warship. Does NBC proofing automatically mean a RO+EOG plant in the ship?

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jul 2009 07:42

^ There is a RO and distillation plant on INS Viraat , being a surface vessel it does not need a EOG machine . I am pretty sure the the Delhi and even the R-class have them.

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 26 Jul 2009 08:03

Gagan wrote:Of course they are for extracting oxygen on subs. The distilled water is electolyzed to give oxygen for breathing. It is just that DE subs don't have the space and the electrical power to run this level of power hungry operation.
This is why nuclear subs are said to have unlimited endurance limited only by the food running out. They don't have to surface for air.

Even if they run out of food, can any other submarine deliver food, like mid-air refueling? In that case, they don't have to come out of water at all...

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 26 Jul 2009 08:06

Yes, You can send a small fishing trawler with food supplies to replenish.. A 30 minute surfacing won't be detectable.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 08:10

Or they can open the outer hatch of the torpedo tubes, fill up the seawater and strain out the water. That will leave the fishes inside. Simple seafood onlee.

Man this waiting for the launch is getting on one's nerves onlee, there is going to be two pages of this thread spent on this nonsensical bakwaas like mine to somehow bide the time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2009 08:12

they'd have to surface and hook up to a submarine tender ship.

in WW2 the german navy used milch cow submarines to offload fuel and supplies to U-boats without needing them to come back into port.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 08:25

Arun_S wrote:Austin saab: I disagree. Photograph of a Submarine above water is of precious intelligence value compared to photo of the same sub when floating in water. What is below waterline is precious information.

Arun if that is the case why do we find countries like US or Russia showing off their entire submarine while dry docking or during commissioning or repair

Even UK showed their entire Astute during first roll out as seen Astute

Same goes for French new SSBN Le Tromp

Similarly we could see the entire conventional submarine and these days they don't even care to cover the prop

Are they not worried of giving away their secret ?

Sorry but I think we are just being paranoid , its just a matter of time we will see pictures of INS Arihant floating on the Internet either in dock or refit activity.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 26 Jul 2009 08:27

The meaning of Arihant:

make meaningful the no first use doctrine pledged 10 years ago

China's asymmetric advantages further diminshed, possibly dangerously diluted with India's GDP growth rate eclipsing Chinese this year. Should make interesting reading in people's daily. It will be accepted as inevitable in the west even in the US.

Unsc seat much closer. North Korea Pakistan Sweden etc can also explode bombs but an ssbn establishes technological and strategic credentials like nothing else.

Pakistan throws up its hands and take to calling India bade bhai sahib.

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 26 Jul 2009 08:31

Singha wrote:they'd have to surface and hook up to a submarine tender ship.

in WW2 the german navy used milch cow submarines to offload fuel and supplies to U-boats without needing them to come back into port.

Is it not that the only safe way to deliver supplies would be through another submarine without the mother re-surfacing? Once they are out wouldn't they be traceable within a radius at least for some days, that too with the present day satellite imagery?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 08:33

In india the OSA is overbearing. There is very limited intel to be garnered from visualizing the outside of a sub, including the propellers. And this sub is not even going to be armed for like 6 months at least.

In our case it is part paranoia, part the fear of ridicule at this first ever effort, part a fear of something going wrong. People fear, that showing the launch or too much fanfare will raise expectations, while there is some way to go before this platform is validated, its design refined, the problems ironed out in the subsequent designs.

Perhaps the induction ceremony of this sub will be more colorful and the launch of the subsequent ATV's will be more open.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2009 08:34

kasthuri wrote:
Even if they run out of food, can any other submarine deliver food, like mid-air refueling? In that case, they don't have to come out of water at all...

spare a thought for the people who actually will be on-board !

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 08:44

Run out of food! Man, these subs can carry 3 months of rations. Imagine having to lock someone up in a closed space for 3 months. It is like a kaal-kothri in those jails.
A submariners job is the most difficult one mentally more than physically. I can't forget seeing a US Navy documentary about a submarine partol in the seawolf class sub. A few of the submariners broke down. It was difficult to see grown men cry at the isolation underwater for 3 months. People had emotional upsets and fights because of the tension that builds up.
Not seeing sunlight and fresh air, even sea air, is something we land lubbers can't even imagine. A submariners life and the jawans manning the siachen glacier are the most difficult jobs on earth, and us indians seem to be doing them.

Indian Navy subs have never had month long underwater patrols, this baby can do 3 month long patrols at a time. This will be a new learning experience for all, after the chakra. There will have to be an important emphasis on the physical and emotional comfort of the human element in this machine.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 26 Jul 2009 08:46

sanjaykumar wrote:Pakistan throws up its hands and take to calling India bade bhai sahib.

I recognise that this isn't the international naval thread but since there are still 2 hours and 13 minutes to Arihant's date with the outdoors, I'd like to respond with the question - what's stopping China gifting Pakistan some nuke subs? Some claims have been made that the Pak nuke is a Chinese gift as well.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 26 Jul 2009 08:52

The US of A and their own fear of lunatic with a loaded gun.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 08:55

1. The arihant is not coming out of the shed today. probably sometime next week.
2. The chinese are not going to give the pakistanis a nuclear sub. Bandar ke haath mein jaado ke chari nahi di jaati. You dont give a magic wand to a monkey.
The chinese will probably want to sell one of their Song class or even the newer Yuan class, Kilo copies with german engines that they've developed.
The pakis will claim that just like their JF-17

this is the best sub in the world, and that pakistani scientists designed it and is a joint cheeni-pakistani effort.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 26 Jul 2009 08:55

PratikDas wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Pakistan throws up its hands and take to calling India bade bhai sahib.
I recognise that this isn't the international naval thread but since there are still 2 hours and 13 minutes to Arihant's date with the outdoors, I'd like to respond with the question - what's stopping China gifting Pakistan some nuke subs? Some claims have been made that the Pak nuke is a Chinese gift as well.

Nuke sub is not cheap and how many nuke subs does China have?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Jul 2009 08:57

What! Not launched yet and you guys are talking about having chai biskoot aboard the boat already? tsk tsk. As youjuwal pate puja first eh?

CM.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jul 2009 09:04

Btw bhai log where is Kaptaan Koshy ? arm chair sailors want sweets and candies.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jul 2009 09:14

Gagan wrote:Run out of food! Man, these subs can carry 3 months of rations. Imagine having to lock someone up in a closed space for 3 months. It is like a kaal-kothri in those jails.

Wonder if these new subs will have mixed gender crews. Are there women submariners in the IN?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2009 09:20

nope ! how many navies have women submariners ?
for the moment that would be more trouble than it is worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine# ... rt_of_crew