J & K news and discussion

[Sanku]

Three-year-old boy 'gunned' down by militants
23 Jul 2009, 1334 hrs IST

In the latest a three-year-old boy and his father were gunned down late on Wednesday night (July 22) allegedly by militants in Dunardu in Shopian.

Another Link

Remove CRPF, remove army, castrate the police by levelling false allegations of rape. Please give a free hand to the terrorists in their holy mission of killing children -Signed by WKK and Jamia Binori Peace Institute.

To his credit Omar Abdullah has been scathing in his reaction on this and the typical perfidious behavior of the Human rights wallah and the separatists.

[anupmisra]

To his credit Omar Abdullah has been scathing in his reaction on this and the typical perfidious behavior of the Human rights wallah and the separatists.

Where's A-Run-That's it-Roy when you need her?

[Avinash R]

To his credit Omar Abdullah has been scathing in his reaction on this and the typical perfidious behavior of the Human rights wallah and the separatists.

Agree about omar but commie media gives too much space to these jholwallas. They never highlighted the good work done by omar. He is holding regular 'darbars' so that people problems are solved quickly. These developmental programs are never shown or discussed but instead they have discussions with self appointed intellectuals like SUzanne Arundhati Roy (SUAR) who milks the attention to position herself as a global piss activist. And these jholawallas advocate army and para-military forces to be removed so that these terrorists have a free reign looting and killing people and turn the clock back to the days when they ascendant in the valley.

[sum]

News reports on the GoI organised conference on the plight of PoK. Our agencies seem to have tracked down a lot of PoK based dissidents and got them to Delhi. Is something afoot in the "Northern Areas"?

India for opening of Kargil-Skardu route

New Delhi, Jul 23 (PTI) India today sought opening of the Kargil-Skardu route between India and Pakistan for passenger traffic on humanitarian basis as well as to counter the "virus" of extremism and militancy in Jammu and Kashmir. "We have continued to press for opening the Kargil-Skardu route for passenger traffic and eventually as a full-fledged communication corridor", Shyam Saran, Special Envoy of the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said at a conference on "Society, Culture and Politics in the Karakoram Himalayas.

" "This will not only serve a humanitarian purpose but also help counter the virus of extremism and militancy," he said. The economic prospects of the Karakoram communities would brighten greatly if traditional trade routes could be re-opened, he said.

Saran pointed out that in its interaction with Pakistan on Jammu and Kashmir, India had always insisted that all cross-LoC links and potential projects for cooperation in specific areas must cover the entire erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir, including Gilgit and Baltistan. The official also expressed his concern at the adverse impact of climate change in the region which, he said, would only aggravate the political, social and economic stresses there.

Sympathising with the plight of the war-torn Karakoram people, Saran said, "There is the obvious anxiety of the spill-over effect on the conflicts that now agitates this zone of instability.

PoK leaders seek India’s help in fight against Pak

WHILE India has been extremely sensitive about being seen to be getting involved in Pakistan’s internal affairs, a number of political groups in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) have now been openly seeking New Delhi’s help in their fight against what they describe as their persecution by Islamabad.

Their argument is simple. Officially, India continues to consider the whole of Kashmir, including the areas under Pakistan control, as its own territory and therefore it becomes its duty to protect them against a foreign aggressor, which is how they describe Pakistan.

A motley group of these political leaders and intellectuals from areas around Gilgit and Baltistan in PoK, referred to as Northern Areas by Pakistan, assembled in New Delhi to participate in a two-day international seminar on ‘Society, Culture and Politics in the Karakoram Himalayas’ that was dominated by tales of discrimination and persecution of the people in these areas at the hands of Pakistan’s civilian and military establishment.
....

Khan, like most other political leaders from the region, lives in exile in Europe. He said the Indian position was even more surprising considering the fact that most political formations in the area were now open to a merger with India.

Seems to have been a hush-hush "conference" since most of the sites are reporting only the handout given by PTI and there doesn't seem to be too much info on what else happened

[pgbhat]

Al Jazeera ----- Inside Story

[pgbhat]

^^^
we know why Haider wrote his DT article.

[karthik]

People need to stop saying everything is over because terror is delinked from talks, I was actually hoping that terror gets delinked because every time a terrorist attacks he is having an influence on what we do or what policies we commit to, we cant become a nation dictated by what terrorist want us to do because then its the terrorists who do our polices and not us. A secure country should do what it feels like and not get dictated by couple of thugs with guns.

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

[derkonig]

People need to stop saying everything is over because terror is delinked from talks, I was actually hoping that terror gets delinked because every time a terrorist attacks he is having an influence on what we do or what policies we commit to, we cant become a nation dictated by what terrorist want us to do because then its the terrorists who do our polices and not us. A secure country should do what it feels like and not get dictated by couple of thugs with guns.

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

I agree talks should be delinked from terror and the best way to do that will be to have no talks with Pakistan until terror against India is completely eliminated. Until then no piss talks, period.

As for JnK, the only position that GoI should take is that of the reintegration of the illegally occupied parts of Kashmir by Pak & China into JnK. Any lesser is nothing short of high treason. KMs will howl regardless of whatever happens. If the kid gloves that GoI uses to treat them cannot inspire their faith in Indian democracy, nothing can. Hence, it is incumbent on the GoI to not consider any proposal like turning the LoC into IB, opening of borders, joint control, etc. The only position should be that the whole of JnK is Indian territory and that any claim/control by any other state will not be acceptable.

[karthik]

I agree talks should be delinked from terror and the best way to do that will be to have no talks with Pakistan until terror against India is completely eliminated. Until then no piss talks, period.

As for JnK, the only position that GoI should take is that of the reintegration of the illegally occupied parts of Kashmir by Pak & China into JnK. Any lesser is nothing short of high treason. KMs will howl regardless of whatever happens. If the kid gloves that GoI uses to treat them cannot inspire their faith in Indian democracy, nothing can. Hence, it is incumbent on the GoI to not consider any proposal like turning the LoC into IB, opening of borders, joint control, etc. The only position should be that the whole of JnK is Indian territory and that any claim/control by any other state will not be acceptable.

"I agree" was a real good decoy but in reality there is no point turning this into an Jerusalem where two parties reach a point where both cant talk face to face. However that said i am completely for recapture and reeducating of kashmir people but will our Gov ever have the will to do so! Thats never possible with our half hearted politicians, we are always going to keep the fire simmering. We cant change our neighbor its better we at least learn to live with them, thats the most practical thing to do, putting aside childish egos and finding as treaty with them is the only way forward.

P.S. This does not include Jammu or Ladakh.

[Gagan]

Just like each pakistani leader wants to capture kashmir and launches a military or terrorist operation there before a stout kick on the backside brings them to their senses,
it seems each new Indian leader gets all weak kneed when dealing with the pakis and tends to give away india's interests, in the name of creating personal goodwill and goodwill for the people of india. This goes on until the indian leader in question gets a solid kick on his backside and a slap on his face by pakistan's standard response.

This cycle repeats ad nauseum. BRF cribs about this on and on.
The kal-chakra seems never ending.

[enqyoob]

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

Delhi and Mumbai are already that way onlee. I mean the Elite. It's only those poor, ignorant no-account "third-worlders" - the taxi drivers, the policemen and policewomen, the soldiers, the hotel clerks - you know, the people who put their bodies in front of those of the "guests" in the Mumbai hotels when the Pakis came calling ... It's only these no-account ppl who still care in India about the concept of India and its integrity.

If Israel had converted Tel Aviv and Haifa also into this sort of free-4-all zones, there would be no MidEast Conflict either. TOTAL peace and harmony and love in Jerusalem. The only remaining Jewish people would be in the USA (and India, but only as long as the Ummah in Kerala tolerates that).

P.S. I wonder if you have checked into / forgotten why this wonderful arrangement did not work so great in Kashmir beyond 1948? All of Kashmir was then an independent country, with open borders with India and Pakistan. Heaven on Earth, etc. etc. Until the Taliban led by PakiFauj came visiting. Wouldn't we all like to be living in a paradise like, say, Swat or Mingora, protected and cared for by the Pakistan Fauj?

A loooong time back I used to run a website on Kashmir, in the days when it was about the only non-Paki website on Kashmir. Expalining the birds, bees and Pakis of why there is no "Kashmir problem", only a "Pakistan Problem". Maybe I need to dig up and see if I can still find the material.

[CRamS]

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

I went back a few posts, but couldn't locate who spoketh this gem?

[munna]

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

I went back a few posts, but couldn't locate who spoketh this gem?

I guess Karthik saar spoketh the gem.

[shiv]

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

How do you get Pakis to agree to be the sort of ideal good people you envisage in this post? What if a Paki leader sends 200 Kasabs to various cities via this "friendly, passport free area"?

People in general - especially Indians are not mad. Indian's too come up with such ideas but they are not workable given the hatred for India that has been set up in Pakistan.

[anupmisra]

Where is Kashmir's conscience?

Is Kashmir's conscience dead? The answer, most definitely, seems yes. Recently, J&K CM Omar Abdullah hit the nail on its head when he lashed out at the separatists for their silence on the killing of a three-year-old by terrorists.

Why separatists alone, the whole of Kashmir should answer this question. Really, where are the protests now? Where is the Valley's anger – so visible, at the drop of a hat, all these years? Why, all of a sudden, has Kashmir forgotten to take to the streets -- stones in hands and tears in eyes? The same Kashmir, which burned with rage over the rape-cum-murder of two women in Shopian, has its eyes closed when the perpetrators of the crime are terrorists.

How about a little anger against the terrorists from across the border who have killed anywhere between 65,000 to 1,00,000 people since 1989? All in the name of freedom?

In an indirect attack on the separatists at a function in Srinagar, Omar said: "They prominently organize marches and give ‘chalo calls' to highlight violation of human rights...These elements resort to politics of hypocrisy."

Quiet aptly, Omar's comments came on a day when SC questioned the Jammu & Kashmir High Court's order to arrest police officers for their alleged involvement in Shopian rape-cum-murder.

And in the meantime, it's time for Kashmir as well to show some responsibility. And for our politicians to shed some hypocrisy.

[Prem]

People under the influence of Pakislam are void of conscience ,exhorting these blind fools to act like human is living in maya. these rats are lucky that they live in Non islamic society otherwise they could have been done with without mercy long time ago .

[chetak]

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

How do you get Pakis to agree to be the sort of ideal good people you envisage in this post? What if a Paki leader sends 200 Kasabs to various cities via this "friendly, passport free area"?

People in general - especially Indians are not mad. Indian's too come up with such ideas but they are not workable given the hatred for India that has been set up in Pakistan.

This is all political fencing and the kashmiris are irrelevant to the issue. If the pakis wish to respect the will of the kashmiris so much, why have the pakis completely left out "independent kashmir" from all options and have repeatedly stressed that accession to porkiland is the only option?

The pakis want control over kashmir's waters and river headworks any which way. Chenab formula gives one bank of the chenab to the pakis. Even with one bank of the river, they can stop India from using the waters.

They don't really give a jack how they get it. We are the foolish people onlee. Be like Arjuna and keep the eyeball Mk 1 on the target onlee. People talking of friendly ties and common friendly territory need to read up a lot more. kashmiris want good life -- free money from India is a very major part of this equation. They want their cake and to eat it too.

Once entrenched and even in (JOINT!!!) control, the porkis will maneuver and behave like autoriksha drivers. The entire exercise is to precipitate such a situation as to prevent India from its legitimate control and use of water.

So far for these many years, the water issue has been deliberately hidden from public view. The "core issue" is coming out increasingly shrilly in many writings in the porki urdu and other press.


Do you really think that it was entirely coincidental that India stopped in 1947-48 at the kashmir boundaries that they did? All the major river headworks had been brought firmly under Indian control. In hindsight, ek aur dhakka would have ejected these beggars forever.

The hatred towards India from islam is ancient and implacable.
We alone, of all other civilizations did not succumb en masse to their vicious assaults. India is a civilizational quicksand to their way of thinking. Liberalism doesn't even begin to enter the picture. For the rop it's always only "all" ( and never, "or nothing") every time from times immemorial.

The separatists actually want a Andorra type entity but with an islamic caliphate twist which they will rule over with India perpetually paying most if not all the bills.

So does omar abdullah, his father farooq abdullah as did his grandfather sheikh abdullah. Let us not be fooled by their fluent english and public speaking skills.

Hence the clever use of modern marketing methods to advance the causes of the rop which has resulted in the Indian "intellectuals" and quislings screaming accommodation.

If the rop has not compromised in centuries, do you think that they are likely to start now?

[CRamS]

RamaY:

I think the most evil part of MMS's surrender is that he has accepted TSP/USA's quid pro quo that India resumes love making leading to concessions on Kashmir, and TSP stops terror. And remember this has always been TSP's position. Thus, as long as TSP/USA sees MMS as having the upper hand, I doubt there will be a terror attack. And of course, USA and its mouthpieces on DDM (and here on BR) will make sure that further surrender by MMS on Kashmir will be piece meal, to spin them as Chanakyan moves, with loads and loads of 'India is great power' kudos, and lapped up by the BPO/IT middle class. And it is precisely for this reason that TSP won't ever dump terror (LeT). They will keep them for use later, just in case the uppity "Hindu extremists" assume power. In which case, TSP can unleash LeT with full 'international community' sanction; thanks to MMS.

[karthik]

Delhi and Mumbai are already that way onlee. I mean the Elite. It's only those poor, ignorant no-account "third-worlders" - the taxi drivers, the policemen and policewomen, the soldiers, the hotel clerks - you know, the people who put their bodies in front of those of the "guests" in the Mumbai hotels when the Pakis came calling ... It's only these no-account ppl who still care in India about the concept of India and its integrity.

If Israel had converted Tel Aviv and Haifa also into this sort of free-4-all zones, there would be no MidEast Conflict either. TOTAL peace and harmony and love in Jerusalem. The only remaining Jewish people would be in the USA (and India, but only as long as the Ummah in Kerala tolerates that).

P.S. I wonder if you have checked into / forgotten why this wonderful arrangement did not work so great in Kashmir beyond 1948? All of Kashmir was then an independent country, with open borders with India and Pakistan. Heaven on Earth, etc. etc. Until the Taliban led by PakiFauj came visiting. Wouldn't we all like to be living in a paradise like, say, Swat or Mingora, protected and cared for by the Pakistan Fauj?

A loooong time back I used to run a website on Kashmir, in the days when it was about the only non-Paki website on Kashmir. Expalining the birds, bees and Pakis of why there is no "Kashmir problem", only a "Pakistan Problem". Maybe I need to dig up and see if I can still find the material.

Your generalizing on a large scale, not all taxi wallas, police men or clerks would think that way and even if there are so many people, so what? The majority population has always been stupid and dumb, at one time the majority of the world believed in slavery,caste system and the shadow on the moon was caused by a grandmother cooking, so did that majority ever get anything right? where is the time for this great majority to think things over or have the liberty of reading and learning from history!

After Gandhi no one on either side has been serious enough to talk this thing over, no visionary has ever come up with a revolutionary idea, religious people only make things worse in fear of losing their culture. I give full credit to MS on this issue. Nawaz Shariff and Vajpeey where heading on the right direction till Musharraf subataged the talks with Kargil and other attacks. Still after that every fool in our country was optimistic that Musharraf the man who ruined the peace talks was the right man to talk to. We need to rise and really rise over our petty fears and be bold enough to take radical steps if we need peace, only cowards like the status quo and are afraid of change.

P.S. All this said and done i am not for surrendering any part of land, only withdrawl of armed forces from the entire region and if the treaty is broken by terrorists coming in, then its should be left to that country to drive them out or risk losing the treaty and accept the blame. This is off course only an idea but its still better than the violent status quo.

[karthik]

I think that both Kashmir's Pok and Indian Kashmir should be made as common friendly territory, where it remains as a common territory under both countries, a border less region that shows no borders on the map either demarcated on pakistan or indian side. A sort of an small union between both sides where passports are not required. This actually is what many kashmirs separatists would want too because they dont want to completely leave India because they know there isnt much future if they go by themselves and pakistan is not a stable country either. Its sort of an good idea if people are liberal enough on both sides.

How do you get Pakis to agree to be the sort of ideal good people you envisage in this post? What if a Paki leader sends 200 Kasabs to various cities via this "friendly, passport free area"?

People in general - especially Indians are not mad. Indian's too come up with such ideas but they are not workable given the hatred for India that has been set up in Pakistan.

If you think back to 99 Vajpayee and Nawaz sharieff where heading on the right direction, there was peace talk and discussion going on both sides, which unnerved the hawks in both the establishments and consequently Musharaff launched the Kargil attacks to ruin the talks and even went to the extent of over throwing the civilian government, which only meant there was a push inside pakistan for peace and the military did not like it. While through the decade some of us sat through the hypocrisy of the Media claiming Musharaff was the right man for talks, even when the man deliberately planed and launched an attack to break the peace deal was considered the right man! Till today no one in India even understands the hypocrisy they have been sold.

To make a area as a common friendly territory should be easier and better than winning a war with a nuclear neighbor or maintaing an violent status quo which shows no signs of quite. USA is in for a long haul in the Swat and other NWFP areas and this is should be a good time to force pakistan to sign a peaceful treaty, any civilian gov is better than a military one or a fundmental one like Hamas.

If 200 Kasabs come in that should be part of the treaty that it should be left to the J&K police or special forces, failing which if the consequences reach India, we have the option of going after them.

[enqyoob]

Ah! I knew that there must be deep thinking behind this, coming from you. So the proposal is:

All this said and done i am not for surrendering any part of land, only withdrawl of armed forces from the entire region and if the treaty is broken by terrorists coming in, then its should be left to that country to drive them out or risk losing the treaty and accept the blame.

My question was whether you have checked the history (perhaps not in the NCERT textbooks, but a bit deeper, like reading "Flames of the Chinar" by Sheikh Abdullah for starters, on what happened the last time India had no army inside Kashmir.

And then, how

This is off course only an idea but its still better than the violent status quo.

Could you explain how withdrawing all Indian armed forces from Kashmir would lead to LESS violence than the "violent status quo"?

Perhaps one aspect to consider is whether the Indian citizens now resident inside J&K should have any rights at all, like right to life.. or that they do not matter to the elite sitting far away from Kashmir and reasoning that it is more important to avoid displeasing the Pakistani terrorists.

We need to rise and really rise over our petty fears and be bold enough to take radical steps if we need peace, only cowards like the status quo and are afraid of change.

A terrific sentiment! But should we also be capable of the basic intelligence of learning from history, and making some common sense prediction of what will happen if, say, we lose our own fear and become brave as you advice?

For instance, what would happen if the Police in Chennai, Maharashtra, Rose Above Their Fears, made a deal with the goondas, and withdrew completely from Chennai? "Off course", the goondas should know that if they violate the agreement, they will be blamed for it?

Also, could you please continue your discussion of this fine fearless proposal to the "K&K" thread? Whatever else the Sharm El Sheik Joint Statement hallucinated about, it said nothing about Kashmir, so this is not the place to discuss such innovative proposals for peace there.

[karthik]

My question was whether you have checked the history (perhaps not in the NCERT textbooks, but a bit deeper, like reading "Flames of the Chinar" by Sheikh Abdullah for starters, on what happened the last time India had no army inside Kashmir.

I haven't read that but i have Hindu friends living in Rajouri Jammu and Muslim friends in Anantnaga Kashmir. I had the opportunity to live there with both families and interact with the people, as a consequence i have understood a bit for myself to. The last time the army left Kashmir it was an political gimmick there was no negotiated treaty with Pakistan and Kashmir separatists.

And then, how
This is off course only an idea but its still better than the violent status quo.

This is an alternative, considering the other solution in effect are not working to change the minds of Muslims there either.

Could you explain how withdrawing all Indian armed forces from Kashmir would lead to LESS violence than the "violent status quo"?

Your takeing my post out of contest, I did not claim for removing the army without a treaty in place!! I said this treaty should mean demilitarization of the area by both sides and make it a sort of an Union like EU where both countries can visit and remains technically on the map as an neutral area for both sides.

Perhaps one aspect to consider is whether the Indian citizens now resident inside J&K should have any rights at all, like right to life.. or that they do not matter to the elite sitting far away from Kashmir and reasoning that it is more important to avoid displeasing the Pakistani terrorists.

They should matter but there are not may Indian citizens in Srinagar, only army families. Jammu is 65% Hindu and even some of the Muslims like patels are pro India. So Jammu and Ladak should not even be part of the talks, what i am saying is only for Kashmir.

A terrific sentiment! But should we also be capable of the basic intelligence of learning from history, and making some common sense prediction of what will happen if, say, we lose our own fear and become brave as you advice?

History should not teach us just to fear but also find strategies to win or find peace.

For instance, what would happen if the Police in Chennai, Maharashtra, Rose Above Their Fears, made a deal with the goondas, and withdrew completely from Chennai? Off course, the goondas should know that if they violate the agreement, they will be blamed for it?

There is already such an agreement with the goondas thats all part of the society, there are many Gundas outside and if they violate they end up in jail, not very different.

[enqyoob]

Is BRF great or what? It is always a privilege to learn from such experts who really know the region for which they are proposing radical innovations. I too am such an expert. I have lived for a whole week - more! 8 days! in Valencia, Spain, and therefore am an expert on why Spain should withdraw and allow Azad Basque to become a member of the United Nations. I bow to you, Karthik.

If you check into history (which you have apparently not done, and why should you, given all your vast experience of the issues?) you may find that in 1947, the Kingdom of Kashmir signed a Treaty with Pakistan, called a "Standstill Treaty". I guess the Standstill refers to the idea of not invading each other.

In 1948, there was a UN resolution that called for withdrawal of Pakistani forces from all of Kashmir as the first required step in the process towards Self-Determination. India was to Police Kashmir after the Pakistani withdrawal, and the withdrawal of ALL FOREIGN ELEMENTS who had infiltrated, invaded, into Kashmir.

In 1966, India signed a Treaty with Pakistan at Tashkent, promising peace in Kashmir.

In 1972, India signed a Treaty with Pakistan at Simla, promising peace in Kashmir.

In 1999, India signed an Agreement with Pakistan in Lahore promising peace in Kashmir.

So these may be some of the reasons why MY friends who are refugees from Kashmir, and have indelible memories of the wonderful nature of the Pakistani Army and its "tribesmen/ Taliban", are not enamored of your innovative proposal, which is (if I may be a bit frank here) a parroting of Pakistani propaganda.

[RajeshA]

N^3,

Just poves you were never a visionary and there is no hope for you. You're letting your bad experiences and common sense come in the way! You should rise above them!

[Mahendra]

Guys, please dont pounce on Kartik, he is entitled to his views and is making an attempt to explain his pov to us all, if we dont listen him out we risk proving what BRaman says, i.e we at BRF are pro hindutvawadis who attack in packs those who dont agree with our POV

Yes, the IA must withdraw from Kashmir, peroid, I have many muslim friends,this proves that hindus and muslims can live peacefully together, India is such a poor country, nearly 85% of the population lives under the poverty line, what is the use of building these submarines, LCAs and other such DoDos while most of the country goes to sleep on an empty stomach hain?
Drastic times call for drastic measures, I for one would call for disbanding the Indian army after making peace with Pakistan, these able bodied men could be re employed in the agriculture sector, just imagine how our agricultural output would increase

Guys, give Pakistanis the benefit of doubt, we are afterall cousins who got lost in the mela of direct action din, we are like this onlee, we are sorry! Pakistanis, please come back to mother India, we will welcome you with open arms! Jeehaaaaaaad on the kufr!!!!!

[John Snow]

I agree with vamanullah ji 100%. How does it matter if India is a part of TS Pakistan, or TS Pakistan is a part of India.

We as Indians have exported some of the best to TSP, Just two names Mushy and Dawood Bhai. We even funded the TSP after independence and they still owe money. We allow TSP citizens to vanish in India. SO we are almost there just couple of more years, the union will be performed under the direct supervision of Priestly Uncle..

[shiv]

To make a area as a common friendly territory should be easier and better than winning a war with a nuclear neighbor or maintaing an violent status quo which shows no signs of quite. USA is in for a long haul in the Swat and other NWFP areas and this is should be a good time to force pakistan to sign a peaceful treaty, any civilian gov is better than a military one or a fundmental one like Hamas.

If 200 Kasabs come in that should be part of the treaty that it should be left to the J&K police or special forces, failing which if the consequences reach India, we have the option of going after them.

Karthik your ideas sound so unworkable to me that I would personally reject them outright - although you are welcome to hold on to them.

It's very simple.

Are YOU personally responsible for security in J&K?

If you are don't read any further. I have nothing to say to you.

If you are not, it means that someone else is responsible for security in J&K. Would that person (after 60 years of animosity) suddenly agree to let the Pakis in as per your idea.

The answer is "NO" and that answer is supported by millions of Indians who do not give sh1t about Pakistan or Pakis. Oh of course there are people such as yourself who have different ideas - but your ideas have to get past the dead bodies of people such as myself. As far as I am concerned - I would first shoot a person with an idea such as yours first and them proceed to shoot some Pakis - such is the feeling of agreement I have with Pakis or with your ideas

Thought I''d just make my view clear...

[shiv]

er - I need to shoot Vaman and John Snow too I guess..

[somnath]

The SES thread has also become the J&K thread!!

A separate thread gives way too much weight and importance to just a joint statement!

Karthik, as a status quo power and one with far greater politico-economic clout, there is zero reason for India to do anything in Kashmir, barring pretending to "talk about talks"..Earlier, we were weaker, hence had to use Krishna Menon's verbose eloquence and Swaran Singh's uneloquent verbosity to keep up the pretense..Now, we have to simply dovetail our "talks about talks" in our grand strategy of engagement with major powers - to keep the Kashmir bit about Pak off the discussion agenda..IMO thats exactly what we are doing now..

[karthik]

@narayanan..

You dont have to get sarcastic,its not that anyone here knows more than you, i am sure your the one who knows a lot on everything and you even earned a moderator badge under your name, kudos for you.

I did not stay there for 8 days, i was there for 6 months and i knew those guys for more than 7 years before that. I was part of the RSS and i have had many discussion with muslims and understand that you have an right to be cynical, that said there is no reason to completely become hard line. Discussing with them one can see they miss all the small nuances and argue for their own convenience, back of their mind Muslims want to unit with each other, thats the only solution they want. I am not that naive to not get these things into my head. If anyone could remember couple years before the BR server crashed, i was some what of an regular contributor and i was very cynical and was advocating the same line. I was warned for using words like "Muslims" in the then more conservative BR.


All the agreements you mentioned maintain the status quo of Kashmir with India, it does not move or never did move from that idea. Those status quo where negotiated under pressure from foreign powers or right after war and never under an equal footing.

Its tragic that anyone who speaks a different line is considered toeing the paki line! When did Pakistan toe this line could you post any evidence for that?

[karthik]

To make a area as a common friendly territory should be easier and better than winning a war with a nuclear neighbor or maintaing an violent status quo which shows no signs of quite. USA is in for a long haul in the Swat and other NWFP areas and this is should be a good time to force pakistan to sign a peaceful treaty, any civilian gov is better than a military one or a fundmental one like Hamas.

If 200 Kasabs come in that should be part of the treaty that it should be left to the J&K police or special forces, failing which if the consequences reach India, we have the option of going after them.

Karthik your ideas sound so unworkable to me that I would personally reject them outright - although you are welcome to hold on to them.

It's very simple.

Are YOU personally responsible for security in J&K?

If you are don't read any further. I have nothing to say to you.

If you are not, it means that someone else is responsible for security in J&K. Would that person (after 60 years of animosity) suddenly agree to let the Pakis in as per your idea.

The answer is "NO" and that answer is supported by millions of Indians who do not give sh1t about Pakistan or Pakis. Oh of course there are people such as yourself who have different ideas - but your ideas have to get past the dead bodies of people such as myself. As far as I am concerned - I would first shoot a person with an idea such as yours first and them proceed to shoot some Pakis - such is the feeling of agreement I have with Pakis or with your ideas

Thought I''d just make my view clear...

I had some respect for you, now as you said i can shove them. Its sad affair that no one wants to talk, all the earlier peace agreements where done under pressure and they did not happened in a equal footing, having a democratic pakistan only ensures peace. If you think haveing world powers on our side to put pressure on pakistan to keep kashmir in the back burner your mistaken. The world powers are responsible for Jerusalem and they did not let Israel to kick them out and solve the issue once in for all. Those hypocritical christian morals of keeping a dieing man on ventilator is what keeps the middle east going, they wont let us live, let live or kill.

[pgbhat]

Guys the thread is getting OT .

[karthik]

Guys the thread is getting OT .

Please explain how?

[pgbhat]

Guys the thread is getting OT .

Please explain how?

Sharm-el-sheikh JS did NOT make any reference to J&K. You can take this discussion to J&K thread .

[munna]

I did not stay there for 8 days, i was there for 6 months and i knew those guys for more than 7 years before that. I was part of the RSS and i have had many discussion with muslims and understand that you have an right to be cynica, that said there is no reason to completely become hard line.

You were part of it but I was literally born in RSS! I have many more Dogra friends of over 20 years standing plus a good smattering of KPs and they unfortunately do not agree to your proposals and neither do I. Please read what the fundamentalist duggeys in valley were upto in 1987-1991 where by they perpetrated independent India's biggest genocide and we cannot forget that. The mango man is neither a visionary nor it gets visions, mango man calls spade a spade and has no room for useless understandings where none are needed. Please do not drag the name of Muslims into this, KM fundamentalists are a breed apart and have nothing to with rest of Indian muslims. Muslims are not different from rest of us.

I can understand the frustration with these issues, discussing with them one cane see they miss all the small nuances and argue for their own convenience, back of their mind Muslims want to unit with each other thats the only solution they want. I am not that naive to not get these things into my head. If anyone could remember couple years before the BR server crashed, i was some what of an regular contributor and i was very cynical and was advocating the same line. I was warned for using words like "Muslims" in the then more conservative BR.

Thanks for your understanding sir, but no thanks! Back of their minds the fundoos in valley might want to go and do Bhangra on one leg at the top of K2, who cares! First of all they should apologize to KPs and beg forgiveness on their knees before the whole humanity thing can be brought into picture. The society in Kashmir turned fundamentalist and did genocide upon a section of their own ilk. They need to undergo penance like Germany did after 1945, nothing is on the table till then.

All the agreements you mentioned maintain the status quo of Kashmir with India, it does not move or never did move from that idea. Those status quo where negotiated under pressure from foreign powers or right after war and never under an equal footing.
Its tragic that anyone who speaks a different line is considered toeing the paki line! When did Pakistan toe this line could you post any evidence for that?

Well its our territory and we shall deal with the way we want to. India and its statecraft is not conducted by meet the family programs but by emotion less hard boiled eggs known as babuz! The babus and military does not believe in your ideas hence neither do I cause if something goes wrong in J&K it is they who will protect me and not Karthik sir and his honest humane friends from valley. You are not being called names at least no by me as it weakens argument. You are entitled to your opinion but really speaking a less liberal person than me a.k.a the aam admi would definitely take the course predicted by shivji.

[karthik]

Sharm-el-sheikh JS did NOT make any reference to J&K. You can take this discussion to J&K thread .

If you didn't notice I was discussing this with two moderators, they should and would have warned me earlier if it was going OT. May be this thread should be moved to J&K or may be lets boldly start a thread called "Hindu Vs Muslim".

[shiv]

. Its sad affair that no one wants to talk,

I would like to see zero talks with Pakistan. But that may be too much to ask for.

In any case Indian policy makers are stupid if they imagine that Pakis have any love lost for India.

Less than a year ago - Paki generals were assisting in planning 26/11 - wanton killing of Indians just out of spite. Pakistan is not a nation that we can talk to - but we must make it our business to dictate terms to them -i.e. talk down to them.

If the last 60 years have shown us anything - it is clear that friendly relations with Pakistan are unnecessary.

[Gerard]

Its sad affair that no one wants to talk, all the earlier peace agreements where done under pressure and they did not happened in a equal footing,

How can India and Pakistan ever negotiate on "equal footing"? When, in its entire history, did Pakistan claim to be not "under pressure"? Is it not under severe economic pressure now? Is it not under pressure from insurgencies now? Does that not mean that any agreements made now will be repudiated at a future time?

[karthik]

. Its sad affair that no one wants to talk,

I would like to see zero talks with Pakistan. But that may be too much to ask for.

In any case Indian policy makers are stupid if they imagine that Pakis have any love lost for India.

Less than a year ago - Paki generals were assisting in planning 26/11 - wanton killing of Indians just out of spite. Pakistan is not a nation that we can talk to - but we must make it our business to dictate terms to them -i.e. talk down to them.

If the last 60 years have shown us anything - it is clear that friendly relations with Pakistan are unnecessary.

Well, i am on your side but its sad you had to use such language against me, anonymity does bring out the truth in us.

For the longest time i have defended my country's honor ever since my childhood and every occasion i had to stand up for it i stood up albit in my own small way but all that does not matter if you go against the grain even if you say that only because you loved the country you live in and wanted better things for its people. Very unfortunate that a culture that calls itself peacful abuses its own when they question it.

So what is your solution to the growing street protests in Kashmir that our media is not showing? What do you think should be done?

[Stan_Savljevic]

So what is your solution to the growing street protests in Kashmir that our media is not showing? What do you think should be done?

How do you know the media is not showing it? Are you sitting in J&K and seeing it with your own eyes? If so, can you catch it on a vid cam and post it on utube and do us a service?! If not, you have as little info as I do, so what makes you make a hypothesis that "media is not showing it"?