Badges, Patches, Insignia, Medals & Uniforms

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Postby Jagan » 24 Aug 2004 21:41

shishir wrote:2. What is the silver coloured button shaped object/patch on the left pocket?


The Oval badge signifies that the person recieved a Chief of Army Staff Commendation Card - which is an award below Mentioned In Dispatches. The detail on the Pin can be seen in this url
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/Militaria/Pins_Small.jpg (might require refreshing or cut/paste in your browser URL bar)

shishir wrote:3. Also just above the 'Army Marksmanship Unit' tab, what does the U-shaped patch (I'm not sure what that is called) with the red background indicate? Major Rathore is with the Grenadiers; maybe the Grenadiers unit he is with??


Thats the Shoulder Title Badge - worn on both sides - it Says "Grenadiers"

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Postby Shishir » 24 Aug 2004 21:55

Jagan,
Thanks!!

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Postby Priyank » 25 Aug 2004 01:25

Am I seeing things or does Major Rathore have a Vir Chakra ribbon on him?

If so, it probably explains his "shooting Pakistani terrorists was like a turkey shoot" comment. :D

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Postby ASPuar » 25 Aug 2004 06:12

Jagan.. Im not entirely sure, but I think Lt. Gen VArma wears his lanyard on the left because he is an honorary Aide de camp to the president. All ADC's wear the gizmos whos names i cannot remember on the left. There is a very good article on all of it in a back isue of sainik samachar. Ill try and find it.

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Postby Jagan » 25 Aug 2004 06:55

ASPuar wrote:Jagan.. Im not entirely sure, but I think Lt. Gen VArma wears his lanyard on the left because he is an honorary Aide de camp to the president. All ADC's wear the gizmos whos names i cannot remember on the left. There is a very good article on all of it in a back isue of sainik samachar. Ill try and find it.


Asp

You are correct - I quote someone who sent in an email long time back.

Aigulettes are to be worn on the left shoulder by all General officers. Its worn on the right shoulder only by those senior Gen officers who have been appointed as ADC to the President of India.


Jagan

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Postby Mandeep » 25 Aug 2004 10:23

Aiguilettes are worn only by Lt Generals not all general officers. On the left shoulder that is. Full Generals and ADC Generals to the President wear their aiguilettes on the right.
Last edited by Mandeep on 26 Aug 2004 16:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ASPuar » 26 Aug 2004 03:48

Not just ADC Generals, but all ADC's to the president of India, and possibly also those to the governors of states. They are usually fof the rank of captain and major (or equivalent).

Aigulettes used to be worn by all General officers (not brigadiers though), Until some years back when they were restricted to Lt. Gen and above.

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Postby Mandeep » 26 Aug 2004 16:18

I'm well aware that AsDC to the President and Governors wear their aiguilettes on the right too. The Army Chief's personal staff also wear aiguilettes.

In my post I was referring only to General Officers. :-)

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Postby ASPuar » 30 Aug 2004 03:58

I have no doubt you were well aware...

I was just clarifying the matter for those who not have been :)

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Postby Mandeep » 30 Aug 2004 10:44

Thanks, AS.

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Postby Shishir » 30 Aug 2004 19:59

Image
In this picture taken back in 95', the IA officer sports a shoulder patch featuring a Cobra. Initially I thought this was a patch of one of the armoured divisions but later found that this was not the case. Can someone identify the unit represented by the patch?

p.s: Also note the chart in the background indicating 'Op Cobra' and '29 RR'. Is this the badge of 29 RR? Maybe it has something to do with 'Op Cobra' that is referred to in the chart?? :-?

Thanks.

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Postby AmanC » 30 Aug 2004 21:36

That seems to be the battalions own insignia and not a bonafide formation sign. Though there is no such tradition in the army to have such signs for individual battalions, RR or otherwise. In this case the snake has been superimposed on 29 and it is clear that 29 RR devised its own logo.

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Postby Jagan » 30 Aug 2004 22:59

Aman is most probably right - plus the patch looks like it is worn over a Jacket - and not directly on the Uniform maybe because its much easier to wear things unofficially on the jacket rather than directly on your uniform where some senior officer might chew you up for wearing unauthorised badges.

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Postby Mandeep » 31 Aug 2004 10:00

Correct, this is the (illegal) unit badge, worn (illegally again) on the right shoulder.

Many units/formations have illegal crests/mottoes used under threat of official displeasure.

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Postby Jagan » 08 Sep 2004 01:22

My turn to ask a question

Sikh Lt Infantry Soldiers in Ceremonial Gear

I find that metal ring around the pugree strange and completely new - can anyone tell me what its all about?

URL fixed
Last edited by Jagan on 08 Sep 2004 01:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Mandeep » 08 Sep 2004 19:57

That 'metal ring' is a Chakra or Quiot. Earlier used as a throwing weapon by Sikh soldiers it later became a turban ornament.

Used by Sikh Regt, SLI, 15 Punjab (1 Patiala) and earlier by 15th Punjab Regt (now in Pakistan) and Probyn's Horse.

BTW these SLI soldiers are wearing the more popular privately owned Pags rather than the standard Army pattern.

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Postby Jagan » 18 Sep 2004 11:46

The first original Operation Vijay Medals are being issued - just about five years after the Kargil War.

Image
This one is posted by Sushil Talwar on the SAGongs yahoogroup.


Till now everyone was making do with copies of the medal.
Image

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Postby Joeqp » 18 Sep 2004 18:41

I know this may sound stupid, but can anyone tell me why they use "operation" in Hindi on the medal? Isn't there a Hindi word ("sangharsh", "abhiyan" or something) that fits better? :-? :-? :-?

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Postby Ed_Haynes » 23 Sep 2004 18:43

And what in the world does the Jai Stambh at Chitor have to do with Kargil? One of the more unfortunate post-1947 medals.

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Postby Ed_Haynes » 23 Sep 2004 18:46

For a more focused discussion of Indian (and other South Asian) medals and decorations, both before and after 1947, you may wish to drop in at the sibling groups of:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SAGongs/

and more a recent venue,

http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/

No effort here to compete with Bharat Rakshak -- not as if I could even if I so desired!

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Postby AmanC » 27 Sep 2004 19:59

I know this may sound stupid, but can anyone tell me why they use "operation" in Hindi on the medal? Isn't there a Hindi word ("sangharsh", "abhiyan" or something) that fits better?


C'mon Manvendra :roll:

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Postby Shishir » 21 Nov 2004 06:20

Question for army gurus..
1. What is the 'belt like thing' that VC of army staff P.P.S. Bhandari is wearing across his chest here ( From left shoulder across the body)?

2. In this image, Major General Thomas Mathew is wearing a belt (Across waist) over his uniform while VC of army staff P.P.S. Bhandari does not in this picture ? Is this a tradition or just a matter of personal preference?

3. On a related note, I have noticed several army officers wearing a belt over sweaters (As seen here and here) ? To my lay mind, it seems easier to wear the sweater over the belt but since this practice is widespread, I presume it is because of other reasons.. Can any army "gurus" care to enlighten?

Thanks in advance..
Last edited by Shishir on 22 Nov 2004 00:53, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby adrian » 21 Nov 2004 07:39

Shishir,
Gen Bhandari is from the Armoured Corps, if I recall he was originally from Hodson's Horse and then became Col of the regt for a couple of other armoured regts. The "belt" you see across his chest is known as a Cross belt and is worn by all Armoured Corps and Rifles Regts (Garwhal/Rajputana) officers as part of their Service Dress and the cross belt is distinctive... no two regts have identical cross belts. If you look closely at Gen Bhandari's cross belt you can make out the crossed lances which signifies Armoured Corps and just below them are the battle honors for the regt which will depict the name and year of the battle honors. I couldnt access the other pictures, some server problem.


regds

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Postby ASPuar » 22 Nov 2004 00:35

the belt worn over the tunic is usually used for a harness for the sword....

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Postby Nainan » 22 Nov 2004 00:39

ASPuar wrote:the belt worn over the tunic is usually used for a harness for the sword....


I s it not the thinner Sam Browne belt.........This one seems slightly different

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Postby Sachin » 22 Nov 2004 11:24

The "belt" you see across his chest is known as a Cross belt

I don't think this belt is known as a crossbelt. A cross belt would be thinner, and generally worn from the right shoulder. The ends of the belt would also be buckled to the leather belt.

A similar type of belt, I have also seen being worn by the stick orderlies in an Infantry Regiment too.

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Postby ASPuar » 22 Nov 2004 11:36

From BR Monitor:

The old pouch which was meant to carry extra ammunition to protect the flanks or to play the role of skirmishers. In 1841 the pouch was adopted in ceremonial form. It is presently worn by officers on ceremonial occasions as also by the Battalion Havildar Major, Band Master and the Stick Orderly.

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Postby Sachin » 22 Nov 2004 18:15

ASPuar wrote:Battalion Havildar Major, Band Master and the Stick Orderly.

Does'nt the BHM wear a red sash? And also heard that in some regiments they have a rank Regimental Orderly Havildar. Is it true?


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Postby putnanja » 15 Dec 2004 22:56


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Postby Mandeep » 15 Dec 2004 23:18

What all of you are referring to is the pouch belt also known as the cross belt.

The other variety of cross belt is the Sam Browne belt, an elegant piece of equipment phased out of the Army during the time of General Arun Vaidya.

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Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2004 01:29

Sorry to do this again, but your username has been changed to Mandeep. Any questions or concerns just email me.

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uniform??

Postby shek » 09 Feb 2005 17:04

I've got some questions, why do personnel the Brigade Of The Guards wear brass buttons on their uniforms?...except fatigues of course!
Secondly, as far as i know, officers of the MLI do not wear cross belts, how come the new Chief wears one?

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Postby Priyank » 09 Feb 2005 21:08

Can someone identify the patches on the Brigadier's right shirt pocket:

http://forum.apan-info.net/fall04/jpg_lg/abays9.jpg

The crossed rifles patch is the RR patch but what are the other two?

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Postby shek » 10 Feb 2005 06:01

Priyank, the crossed rifles on a green background is not the RR patch. it represents instructors at the CIJWS (Counter Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School) at Virangte, Mizoram.
The Dagger on a red background with the word 'Commando' written below worn on the right pocket means that the Brigadier was awarded the 'DAGGER' (Best Student) either during his coure at the Junior Leaders Wing, Commando course at Belgaum or at the CIJWS. Most prob at the CIJWS because he is not wearing crossed rifles with a red background (representing, officers with instructor grading in JLW Commandos).
The small badge worn on the lapel of right pocket means that he served with the Assam Rifles. It is not very clear though in the picture. Similarly, personnel who complete a tenure with the RR wear the RR crest too.

*I think this pic was taken when the yankees were granted entry to the CIJWS and they were the first US batch to undergo this really really tough and gruelling course.

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Postby Priyank » 11 Feb 2005 05:26

Shek,

Thanks for correcting me. As you seem to have a detailed knowledge of these things, could you please verify my attempt at identifying the various infantry regiments in the following picture (Ray sahab, feel free to do the same):

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Regiments/Regiment.jpg

Here is my attempt:

Top Row (Left to Right): 11 Gorkha Rifles, Maratha Light Infantry, Sikh Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, 5 Gorkha Rifles, 4 Gorkha Rifles, Assam Rifles (it is not an infantry regiment though), Parachute, Kumaon, 3 Gorkha Rifles, Rajputana Rifles, 1 Gorkha Rifles, 9 Gorkha Rifles.

Bottom Row (Left to Right): Garhwal Rifles, Jammu & Kashmir Rifles, Mahar, Bihar, Assam, Punjab, Dogra, Rajput, Jat, Rajputana Rifles, Sikh, Madras, Grenadiers, Brigade Of The Guards, Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry, ?, 8 Gorkha Rifles.

It seems that the Naga regiment is missing in that picture. Also what is the red shoulder patch on the unknown soldier marked with the question mark above.

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Postby shek » 11 Feb 2005 06:01

Priyank wrote:Assam Rifles (it is not an infantry regiment though),

It seems that the Naga regiment is missing in that picture. Also what is the red shoulder patch on the unknown soldier marked with the question mark above.


Priyank, your id of regiments were spot on!! Though i chose to ignore the Gorkhas because they really confuse me!
Priyank, regarding the Assam Rifles, though ther are not an infantry 'regiment' as such, their setup is totally infantry. It is only their uniform that gives them their identity.
Ya, the Nagas are missing, frisky bunch they are!! I think the 'unknown jawan' with the red patch is from the Ladakh Scouts. The red patch is the formation sign he wears.

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Re: uniform??

Postby shek » 25 Feb 2005 08:26

shek wrote:I've got some questions, why do personnel the Brigade Of The Guards wear brass buttons on their uniforms?...except fatigues of course!
Secondly, as far as i know, officers of the MLI do not wear cross belts, how come the new Chief wears one?


Well, well, well...i get to quote myself! I really don't have confirmed info on the 'Guards' query but the MLI one i got it answered yesterday itself by one of my best friends who is from the MLI presently undergoing the JLW Commandos. As such the MLI do not wear cross belts, but now some changes are coming into the uniform of the MLI apart from the cross belt. The first change i remember would be the changing of the Lanyard, which was first put around the neck (like a noose, symbolising...i won't go further, would prob get into the bad books of MLI officers in BR!!) and now it is worn like other inf units around the (left?) arm. The second change would be the shoulder titles being changed from hindi to english.
NOW, the latest change is the new cross belt which has been introduced, like any typical cross belt with battle honours etc. Secondly and one of the most imp changes is that now the shoulder title which initially read as 'MARATHA LI' will now ONLY have 'MARATHA' written and the 'LI' part will become 'LIGHT INFANTRY' as shoulder flashes EXACTLY like 'THE GUARDS' or 'COMMANDO' with ref to The Brigade of The Guards and PARA Commando Units. 'Light Infantry' will be in gold and the backing will be black.
It seems with every new chief coming his regt gets the better of it! I really don't understand the need of signifying the 'light 'infantry part as now it is just normal infantry and the role of 'light infantry' doesn't exist today as such.
So next chief from the Kumaon/Nagas??...new cross belts for the nagas?? U BET!

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Postby ASPuar » 25 Feb 2005 12:28

This is the new Style Lt Gen Collar Tabs (3 Stars)

The Major General Tabs - 2 Stars.

Brigadier Col Tabs.

Old Style 'Universal' Collar Tabs


Old Style 'Universal' Collar Tabs for Winter Service Dress?


Bah.. im not much for these new star studded gorgets. I think the old prussian oak leaf looked much better. The stars look a little bit cheesy. Furthermore, I think that the story provided (some major general not getting his due at some conference), is not the fault of our uniforms, but rather some sort of administrative goof up.
The British Army doesnt use stars on their uniform, either.. how often do their ranks get confused?

The shoe fit.. so I dont see why had to change it. I also dont understand thi new policy for staff oficers to wear camo, allegedly to show solidarity with their brethren at the front... it just seems like a lot of symbolic showmanship.

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Postby shek » 25 Feb 2005 13:43

ASPuar wrote:
This is the new Style Lt Gen Collar Tabs (3 Stars)

The Major General Tabs - 2 Stars.

Brigadier Col Tabs.

Old Style 'Universal' Collar Tabs


Old Style 'Universal' Collar Tabs for Winter Service Dress?


Bah.. im not much for these new star studded gorgets. I think the old prussian oak leaf looked much better. The stars look a little bit cheesy. Furthermore, I think that the story provided (some major general not getting his due at some conference), is not the fault of our uniforms, but rather some sort of administrative goof up.
The British Army doesnt use stars on their uniform, either.. how often do their ranks get confused?

The shoe fit.. so I dont see why had to change it. I also dont understand thi new policy for staff oficers to wear camo, allegedly to show solidarity with their brethren at the front... it just seems like a lot of symbolic showmanship.


I totally second ASPuar!!! 8) It's just a waste of time, money and energy!


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