Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jul 2009 12:56

So then Maitri is out, Spyder is in for keeps.

French won't be unhappy, the same article talks about a 2 billion Euro upgrade deal for the Mirage 2000s. Thats $ 50 million per mirage upgrade (close to USD 2.8 billion)

Therein lies the Maitri

Damn, I have a feeling that the IAF is getting more than just 50 m2ks upgraded here. Maybe they just found a customer for the 60 odd UAE M2k-9s

No wonder they talk of M2k-5 TOT! And no wonder the French look so happy! There is something definitely brewing.

Would also serve to bring up nos in a hurry and hedge against while elephants aka shornets.

Either that or its 50:50 M2k-5:Rafale for the MRCA!

CM.

Added later: sorry about the OT, the price just made me reel.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 16 Jul 2009 13:29

How much do you think will the 50 second hand and refurbished Mirage 2000-9's cost?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jul 2009 13:33

p_saggu wrote:How much do you think will the 50 second hand and refurbished Mirage 2000-9's cost?

I'd think for about $ 3 billion, they'd manage about 50 upgrades ($ 1.2 bil) + 50 (1.8 bil) refurbs . just my guess though.

CM.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 16 Jul 2009 13:42

Shouldn't it be 50 aircraft and 100 refurbs?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jul 2009 14:03

not with the french, heh heh!

CM.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 16 Jul 2009 14:12

NO no I am talking of the total price of :
1. Purchase of 50 Mirage 2000-9 from UAE
2. France upgrading them / refurbishing these 50 mirages.
3. France refurbishing our 50 mirages

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2009 20:15

Cm the price for the original Mirage 2000s included the TOT and was paid up. However RG govt developed cold feet when rumors of BCCI pay-offs surfaced. Same with Bofors the price included TOT for the 155mm guns and was paid but never delivered.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2009 20:40

Arun_S wrote: That is the reason why gyrostablisez sight is mimimum requirement for next chopper chosen for FAC role. Of course UAV will also begin supplementing the role but unlikely to replace completely the FAC role because the risk of collision with ground attack fighters.

Yes Gyrostabilised Sight , Passive EO Imaging System and F&F missile , One can deliver that with HAL designed LOH.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2009 20:41

ramana wrote:Cm the price for the original Mirage 2000s included the TOT and was paid up.

Ramana , I dont think TOT was ever in the picture way back in early 80's , what we agreed to was to Lic built M2K at HAL about ~ 150 in numbers after importing 40 outright , but that for some strange reason never went through , rumors are that Soviet hijacked it by offering Mig-29 with the offer to Lic built in India , in the end both lic deal fell through

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 16 Jul 2009 21:09

These days’ numbers for capital procurements are coming out astronomically high.

105 Dhruv's were bought from HAL for ~Rs9650 corers, which comes out close to $18MM/heli.

So all I can guess is that the total cost of program in these cases includes estimated cost of life time support/spare. Those costs will be paid over the life of the product as/when and if they occur.

Rs 45K corer for building 7 Frigates at the cost of $1.4 Billion/ship at Indian shipyards can only make sense if the cost they are talking about includes lifetime spare/support cost.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Jul 2009 21:22

Could it not include the entire sensor package, weapons suite, the air wing and port side servicing all included.

John · Post by **John** » 16 Jul 2009 21:44

Spyder is in for keeps.

Any details on how Spyder beat out MICA? on paper latter is the superior system offering better range and also it has been deployed by few countries unlike Spyder.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Jul 2009 22:01

Wasnt one of the reasons for co-developing Maitri the need for French assistance with the seeker? The Maitri details have always been sketchy - so its hard to be sure.

It always boils down to the seeker for our missiles, doesnt it (just like engines for our aircraft)? Brahmos, Nag, Trishul - you name it. I hope that for all the billions we are pouring into IAI for MRSAM, we at least get the seeker technology. It will be criminal if we just purchase it off the shelf.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jul 2009 22:32

p_saggu wrote:NO no I am talking of the total price of :
1. Purchase of 50 Mirage 2000-9 from UAE
2. France upgrading them / refurbishing these 50 mirages.
3. France refurbishing our 50 mirages

Saggu saar,
Reply in IAF thread; methinks forum Gods be not pleased with such indiscretion. Terrible be their wrath!

CM.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 18 Jul 2009 06:45

I have often wondered why the Yindu Chankians dont have any official Agni-4 missile. Few thoughts come to mind:

1. Some Fung shui "風水" priest told them how how unlucky number 4 is.
2. A Singapore/Taiwan/China returned talking head heard from those chinese there that number 4 is written in chinese similar to calligraphy symbol of "death". So unlucky #4 canno-laa.
3. There is another varient of Agni-3 lurking that will be called Agni-4.
5. The 1.2m dia A2AT missile that Tessi Thomas was heading till recently will get "naamkaran" of Agni-4.

Which one of the above you pick !

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Jul 2009 06:49

The agni 3 SL missile will probably get the agni 4 designation.
IOW, the MIRVed two stage agni 3 will be agni 4.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Jul 2009 06:53

Arun_S wrote:I have often wondered why the Yindu Chankians dont have any official Agni-4 missile. Few thoughts come to mind

The Agni series is sorted by reported range (I use "sorted by", because, as you know, the current numbering was not the original numbering. Agni 1 used to be Agni 2, before they were switched around). I always assumed Agni 4 will be a shorter (reported) range than Agni 5. Now why would SDREs want a missile with a shorter range than Agni 5 but longer than Agni 2 ? Can it be because it will be sub launched ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jul 2009 07:31

sunilUpa wrote:Junked: France joint missile plan

MBDA is a long-time supplier of missiles to India’s army, air force and navy. Earlier this year, the Indian Army ordered 4,100 Milan 27 anti-tank missiles that are also used for destroying built-up targets.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 18 Jul 2009 09:56

In think the role of Trishul or Spyder missile should be taken up by ground launched Astra missile!

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 18 Jul 2009 12:56

^^^^ I am sure we'll have SLASTRA like the SLAMRAAM, but for that we need to first get the ASTRA going for its original role first.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 13:16

indeed. let the baby learn to walk, before we decide where it will do phd.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 21 Jul 2009 03:31

Apologies if posted before
Towards a Hypersonic avatar of Brahmos

koti · Post by **koti** » 21 Jul 2009 09:03

Which other missiles could be coupled to the Spyder system(Akash or Astra)?
I mean with its Radar, Command Control setup, vehicles etc. And not pushing them through its canisters.
(And yes, I know Spyder= Python+Derby)

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 27 Jul 2009 22:37

Wasn't Nirbhay supposed to be tested in 2009 ?? Any news........

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Jul 2009 07:08

X posted excerpt dealing with Pakistani perceptions of India’s missiles from Shireen Mazari’s article on India's nuclear submarine the Arihant:

India’s Arihant — upping the psychological ante

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
By Shireen M Mazari

................ Sea-launched nuclear missiles are central to second strike capability which acts as a stabiliser in the context of nuclear strategy since it reduces the imperatives for first strike. In this context, although Pakistan has not officially made any declarations regarding the development of this capability, it is now fairly well-established that we are already on the way to ensuring this second strike capability. It is also now recognised that we have had more success with missile development than India – probably because we have kept our missile ranges and types limited and focused more on developing solid fuelled delivery systems (which, again, are more stable) and reducing circular error probabilities. India, on the other hand, chose to have a wide-ranging missile programme including seeking the development of intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). While we have stabilised our cruise missile as well as moved towards the beginnings of sea-launched ballistic missiles, from all accounts, India has not been too successful in both these fields – especially with the Sagarika (which is to be its sea-launched missile) in surface tests. ..................

The News

atma · Post by **atma** » 29 Jul 2009 08:23

Quote:
Shireen Mazari on the Arihant:

Quote:
India’s Arihant — upping the psychological ante

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
By Shireen M Mazari

………………… Incidentally, those in Pakistan who have been ranting for years over the use of Islamic warrior names for our missiles seem absurdly mute in commenting on India’s aggressive usage of Hindu mythology warrior names not only for its missiles but now also for its nuclear-powered submarine. ……………

The News

My response to Mazari: e pata se bheza
Your article and arguments therein sound very moronic indeed. Your arguments about the IOR region, and indeed of Pakistan's capabilities are spurious. Pakistan's Agosta's are not designed or expected to be modified to be SSBN's. Your arguments of Nuclear submarines and their capacities sound even more ludicrious. Finally you go on a tangent about Balochistan which has little to do with the launch of the Arihant. Arihant was not a hindu mythological warrior. Please do some research before deluding your readers in a well read

online news magazine

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 29 Jul 2009 12:46

arun wrote:X posted excerpt dealing with Pakistani perceptions of India’s missiles from Shireen Mazari’s article on India's nuclear submarine the Arihant:

India’s Arihant — upping the psychological ante

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
By Shireen M Mazari

................ Sea-launched nuclear missiles are central to second strike capability which acts as a stabiliser in the context of nuclear strategy since it reduces the imperatives for first strike. In this context, although Pakistan has not officially made any declarations regarding the development of this capability, it is now fairly well-established that we are already on the way to ensuring this second strike capability. It is also now recognised that we have had more success with missile development than India – probably because we have kept our missile ranges and types limited and focused more on developing solid fuelled delivery systems (which, again, are more stable) and reducing circular error probabilities. India, on the other hand, chose to have a wide-ranging missile programme including seeking the development of intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). While we have stabilised our cruise missile as well as moved towards the beginnings of sea-launched ballistic missiles, from all accounts, India has not been too successful in both these fields – especially with the Sagarika (which is to be its sea-launched missile) in surface tests. ..................

The News

Goodness gracious.. the author is deluding himself into thinking that "pakis had more success with their missile development"... It is easier if your when your prime minister can also be a smuggler.. If lady Benazir can take a CD with nuke designs to NoKo and comeback with a CD with missile designs -- hell, even Burma/kenya/Togo islands will have a successful missile programme..

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 29 Jul 2009 12:53

Painting a missile is no easy task.

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Jul 2009 13:22

X Posted and this time represents a view from our side of the border.

Excerpt from AFP article on the launch of the Arihant. Bharat Karnad is discontented with the state of India’s missile armaments :

Long voyage ahead for India's new nuclear sub

…………… Bharat Karnad, an analyst with the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research think-tank, said Arihant was a long way from matching the potency of its Chinese counterparts.

"The Arihant will have a small range of missiles and compared to China's nuclear armament these are fire-crackers," Karnad said.

"India needs to develop inter-continental ballistic missiles fitted in submarines," he said, while also stressing the importance of developing more powerful nuclear warheads.

From Here:

AFP

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Jul 2009 14:15

X Posted.

A scathing attack by Brahma Chellaney on the development of the Indian nuclear deterrent:

India stands out as the country with the slowest rate of progress in deterrent development.

India's 'credible minimal deterrent', far from being credible, has yet to deliver minimalist capabilities against China. India still does not have a single deployed missile of any type that can reach Beijing.

From here:

TOI

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 29 Jul 2009 14:36

Hardest nano-plastic is also lightest
Wednesday 29 July 2009

New Delhi, DH News Service: The world's hardest plastic nano-composite material that can be used in missiles and aeroplanes has been discovered by a team of five Bangalore researchers headed by CNR Rao, scientific advisor to the Prime Minister.

The team comprises researchers from Indian Institute of Science and Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Advanced Scientific Research. The original idea came from Rao – an eminent scientist and founding president of the JNCASR.

Though Rao was not available for comment, Upadrasta Rammurthy, a professor of material engineering at IISc and one of the team members told Deccan Herald that despite its hardness the material is extremely light-weight.

“It can be used in missile and aerospace engineering. However, we have not yet looked into the application side,” he said. ...

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Jul 2009 19:25

arun wrote:X Posted and this time represents a view from our side of the border.

Excerpt from AFP article on the launch of the Arihant. Bharat Karnad is discontented with the state of India’s missile armaments :

Long voyage ahead for India's new nuclear sub

…………… Bharat Karnad, an analyst with the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research think-tank, said Arihant was a long way from matching the potency of its Chinese counterparts.

"The Arihant will have a small range of missiles and compared to China's nuclear armament these are fire-crackers," Karnad said.

"India needs to develop inter-continental ballistic missiles fitted in submarines," he said, while also stressing the importance of developing more powerful nuclear warheads.
From Here:

AFP

What missiles will the leased Charlie have?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jul 2009 19:51

ShauryaT wrote: AFPWhat missiles will the leased Charlie have?

Charlie or Akula2/Chakra ?

Charlie-1 or the old Chakra had SS-N-7 , the new Chakra will have Klub system

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Jul 2009 19:53

Austin wrote:
ShauryaT wrote: AFPWhat missiles will the leased Charlie have?
Charlie or Akula2/Chakra ?

Charlie-1 or the old Chakra had SS-N-7 , the new Chakra will have Klub system

Sorry, I thought i read somewhere that the new leased nuclear sub is also called Charlie.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 29 Jul 2009 21:20

arun wrote: Bharat Karnad is discontented with the state of India’s missile armaments :

Oh yaaaa ....

He knows more about Indian missiles and strategic weapons than anyone this board including me. I say that with all seriousness.

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 29 Jul 2009 23:20

Apologies if posted already

Junk weapons in defence fleet
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 835093.cms

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 Jul 2009 00:21

Guys way back when i was a kid there used to be a ~1 min video showing agni(the first one) on dd and then was followed by a message from RG saying something about the test. Can some odlies remember what the messages was ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jul 2009 00:47

Dont know, but if you have access to Aerospace America back issues there is a full article on the first test in 1989. It would be useful to read it. I used to have copy bu no longer.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Jul 2009 01:24

Agni ka safal parikashan, rashtra ke gaurava kee baat hai (something like this)

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 30 Jul 2009 05:27

Army test-fires BrahMos again