To expect Indians in the future to absorb over 200M raving lunatics into Mother India's fold is sheer idiocy. Nay, short-sightedness.
Here you go. Read it real slow...and enjoy.narayanan wrote:This is the sort of post that I keep trying to resist responding to, but you have got the better of me.To expect Indians in the future to absorb over 200M raving lunatics into Mother India's fold is sheer idiocy. Nay, short-sightedness.
WHERE has Advani recommended anything of the sort? Can you please read it out real slowly to me because I must be too stupid to see it?
He is holding out that slender ray of hope that one day, Pakis can aspire to be part of an actual nation again.
No, you don't escape with that - I wrote what you quoted there, not Advani, so you have just sunk a lot deeper with that attempt.Here you go. Read it real slow...and enjoy.
Justify that description of what Advani said, or withdraw it and apologize.I am sorry but I think Advaniji has gone senile. Must have been that trip to Djinn-ahs tomb. To expect Indians in the future to absorb over 200M raving lunatics into Mother India's fold is sheer idiocy. Nay, short-sightedness.
\narayanan wrote:Justify that description of what Advani said, or withdraw it and apologize.
Now you will see why such a statement from no less than Advani is a devastating act of destabilization against the Paki power structure. He (Advani) is holding out that slender ray of hope that one day, Pakis can aspire to be part of an actual nation again.
Yes, anupmishra, I am "beyond help" because I am way too stupid to continue to tolerate the behavior of disruptive postors who come into a reasoned discussion and fa*t in everyone's faces. No way of expressing that mildly - what you did is to post gratuitous, offensive sh*t about a venerated leader with absolutely no basis.My last post on this issue. I am quoting your own post. After this you are beyond help:
When asked politely to justify that from the report of what Shri Advani said, you responded with an in-my-face fa*t again, just copying what I wrote, and slimily trying to squirm out and evade the question.I am sorry but I think Advaniji has gone senile. Must have been that trip to Djinn-ahs tomb. To expect Indians in the future to absorb over 200M raving lunatics into Mother India's fold is sheer idiocy. Nay, short-sightedness.
Srinagar, July 28 (PTI) On a day of high drama, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah today tendered his resignation to Governor N N Vohra asking him to go into a senior PDP leader's allegation of his involvement in the 2006 sex scandal and accept it if he was guilty.
The Governor is reported to have observed that he would be able to consider Omar's resignation only after being fully informed about the details of the allegation against him and verifying its basis.
The Governor has asked Omar to continue to discharge his responsibilities as Chief Minister till a final decision is taken, a Raj Bhavan spokesperson said in a statement.
Vohra, who was on his way to the airport to leave for Delhi to attend to certain engagements, deferred his departure on receiving a message that the Chief Minister wanted to meet him urgently.
I disagree with this.I conceive that there would be a time when decades hence, both the countries would feel that partition has not solved matters.
neither.Hari Seldon wrote:Seeking a clarification only:
Has anupmisra been banned? Or merely warned?
What's the point then? They'll have to live in constant fear.Can India settle Hindu and Sikh refugees from Pakistan in the Kashmir Valley, under Army protection?
Any such policy requires clear definition of "India", RajeshA-ji. India is not found (aka Israel), it has been there forever.RajeshA wrote:I have a question to the Gurus?
Indian citizens cannot buy property in J&K under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution. Fine!
Can India settle Hindu and Sikh refugees from Pakistan in the Kashmir Valley, under Army protection?
There are around 3,200,000 Hindus and 5000 Sikhs in Pakistan today according to Wikipedia.
each or together...Maybe pisskops but the prospect of undoing partition, and the idea that Advani may actually mean what he says, is frightening. I know what he said is more nuanced and perhaps doesn't deserve the tag of senility etc., however partition is an ideological mindset rather than a failed solution to a problem, and public discourse (outside of brf) hardly recognizes this.narayanan wrote:Hello KVRao garu et al: Pls read carefully what Advani said. It's excellent pisskops.
"I conceive that there would be a time when decades hence, both the countries would feel that partition has not solved matters. "
There is an exercise that I would highly recommend to ppl who are not regular postors in the Lal Mullah University's BENIS thread. This is to close your eyes and imagine what it is like for a Pakistani who has access to TV, internet and news media, especially a RAPE, to wake up in the morning.
Now you will see why such a statement from no less than Advani is a devastating act of destabilization against the Paki power structure. He is holding out that slender ray of hope that one day, Pakis can aspire to be part of an actual nation again. It brings out all the contrast between the trajectories of India and their terrorist slum, and in that fleeting moment of subconscious reasoning b4 they actually open their eyes and become Pakis again, it occurs to them how stupid their many fathers were to not stay part of India. And then reality hits like a well-deserved kick in the musharraf.
Thank you RamaY ji.RamaY wrote:^^^
Excellent ideas RajeshAji.. very practical approach...
I hope our supreme leader and dear leader grow a pair of
As Rahul said, neither, and AFAIK, no one has suggested anything of the sort. But he has complained to the Admins - and I have not read the complaint, nor plan to do so. Ppl who cannot defend their arguments on the open forum, and who get chased out of their hiding places behind smart-aleck remarks, generally goHas anupmisra been banned? Or merely warned?
to Momma or Teacher afterwards, nothing new there. Fits the profile perfectly. Teri chori ka phal tere paas hee baiththee hai
Teri chori ka phal tere paas hee baiththee hai
RajeshA,RajeshA wrote:A Possible Kashmir Solution
.....b) Secondly when there is a population displacement, usually the host country (India) tries to decide, where the refugees will settle down. Often it is near the border region. If the refugees enter India, say through the various transit routes which have been opened for inter-Kashmir travel, then the refugees might end up settling down in refugee camps near those border crossings (in Kashmir itself).
So there is a perfect logic, why the refugees settle down in Kashmir....
The Islamists in the Valley would also not be able to point fingers at Indians, that we are conspiring against them, because those Hindus and Sikhs fleeing over the border/LoC into Kashmir would have been made refugees by Islamists themselves. How can they complain about a problem they themselves created?
Daily ExcelsiorRefugees from Pak occupied Kashmir (PoK) observed black day and paid tributes to the martyrs who laid down their lives while fighting with the Pakistani raiders in Mirpur, Kotli and Muzaffrabad area.
Several refugee leaders including Rajiv Chunni, Dr Gurmeet Singh, Amit Bali, Surjit Kour, R L Nehru, J N Thappar, Suchwant Singh and Sukhdev Singh and others addressed the gathering. They criticised the Government for not resolving their pending issue, regarding permanent settlement of the refugees. They also criticised several Valley based political organisations for their anti-refugees stance.
Therefore any refugees from Pakistan will be dumped into Jammu, which is already Hindu-majority. It will not make any difference to the power-equation because despite a smaller population, Kashmir has more seats in the legislative assembly, and since the refugees of 1947 have not been given voting rights or extra seats, neither will the refugees of this century get any rights from the communal Kashmir-dominated polity.Strongly rejecting Rs 50 crore package offered to the refugees of Jammu by Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh, SOS International, an organisation of PoK refugees has alleged that it was an insult and a cruel joke made with the displaced persons suffering for the last about six decades.
Addressing a press conference here today, Rajiv Chuni, chairman of the organisation, said that refugees of Pak Occupied Kashmir and those from West Pakistan and Chhamb have lost faith in the Congress, UPA Government and the leadership of Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh as he turned out to be the first PM who made the mockery of a most sensitive issue which is unique and amounts to breach of oath of equality.
He alleged that due to wrong policies of Pt Jawahar Lal Nehru, the then Prime Minister, the PoK refugees were made homeless and the area of three districts including Poonch, Mirpur and Muzaffrabad was stripped off from the State and the people turned homeless and refugees. Over fifty thousand people sacrificed their lives during massacre and the Government of India has now forgotten its claim over that territory and welfare and settlement of these hapless people.
Indiatogether has elements of FOIL groups and other psec groups.narayanan wrote:Airavatji, delicate question to you and anyone else:
There is a website called "indiatogether". You can find it on google, easy. They have what they call the "official documents" etc. and a chronology of the "Kashmir problem". When I checked it, it seems clearly a paki propaganda website (though the originator of indiatogether is nominally of Indian origin, it is doubtful how much salt he remembers eating from India). They "cite" some "documents" but those are not hyperlinked, so one cannot verify easily. Also, it seems to me that their primary "reference" is one or 2 books by some very suspect entities.
Would u pls browse that (it is against policy to post urls of paki propagandoos here) and give us some good ammo to debunk that propaganda? in particular, this request is triggered by your mention of the massacres and refugees from Poonch and Mirpur. These fellows refer to some events that occurred long BEFORE october 1948.
Somnath: The Pakis have a very simple solution for this: they hand out Homestead rights as rewards to their aphsars and other mass murderers. This is what they did in POK, forcing out the Kashmiris. IOW, most of the "kashmiris" who gloated at the murder and rape and expulsion of their Hindu and Sikh neighbors, themselves got booted out of POK by the Pakjabi fauji class and the "tribesmen".They would immediately be a target with a bulls eye painted for all manners of jihadi viokence and quasi jihadi protestors.
If India could muster up a big enough community of ex servicement like that, well...My personal take is that there wont be too many volunteers for this, even if we did try..The Pak equivalent would be if theyr tried to colonise FATA/NWFP with Punjabis - the security element precludes such options..they didnt have to face an active insurgency in PoK when they did all the resettlements..narayanan wrote:Somnath: The Pakis have a very simple solution for this: they hand out Homestead rights as rewards to their aphsars and other mass murderers. This is what they did in POK, forcing out the Kashmiris. IOW, most of the "kashmiris" who gloated at the murder and rape and expulsion of their Hindu and Sikh neighbors, themselves got booted out of POK by the Pakjabi fauji class and the "tribesmen".They would immediately be a target with a bulls eye painted for all manners of jihadi viokence and quasi jihadi protestors.
Given that over 60 years have elapsed, I think India should likewise settle the Valley with a cadre of well-trained veterans who are willing to face the fact that there will be attempts to attack them.
Sudhans rebellion against the Pakistan Army: Pakistan sent the Punjab constabulary along with a Brigade of Pakistan Army, to crush the rebellion. Sudhans were not given security clearance until 1972, and were not accepted in the Pakistan Military Academy regular course until 1965. Sudhans have suffered by the oppression of Pakistan occupation led by Military Dictators.somnath wrote:..they didnt have to face an active insurgency in PoK when they did all the resettlements..
Insurgency or not, there was resistance to moves by the Pakistani army to impose its will on the people of occupied Western Jammu. And any such resistance was crushed by this army and did not strike any chords of sympathy among its western supporters (assorted lambs, goats, and maro golis)A peaceful march against Mangla Dam extension purposed by Pakistani Authorities turned into clashes between the local people and the Pakistani Army. The local police provoked clashes by use of tear-gas to stop the peaceful Marchers. It has been reported by an ABK member, Mr. Najeeb Afsar that most of Mirpur City was under curfew today, the police used tear gas to disperse the crowd. The Para Military was called in. Injured people were being taken into the local hospital.
Airavat ji,Airavat wrote:RajeshA,
If history is any guide, these Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan, will be settled not in the Kashmir region of J&K State but in Jammu.
In 1947 Hindus and Sikhs were massacred and the rest driven out from the Muzzafrabad-Mirpur belt of the J&K princely state by the Pakistani invaders. Muzzafrabad was part of the Kashmir province but the communal Sheikh Abdullah refused to let them settle down in Kashmir and they were forcibly pushed down to Jammu. The others from places like Kotli, Rawlakot, and Mirpur, which were all part of Jammu region, in any case made a beeline for Jammu.
But what is even more shocking is that after 60 years these refugees have ZERO rights in their own state:
Incentivesomnath wrote:Temptingly macho that it sounds, attempting a demographic change is easier said than done in a democratic country...To start with, we cant "force" people to migrate, or refugees to settle in Kashmir..We can only "incentivise"..Given the security situation in Kashmir, how many Hindus/Sikhs will voluntarily migrate there? And what would be the incentives required? Israelis settlers are fired by religious zeal - no such sentiment for settling in Kashmir exists among Hindus/Sikhs..
Further, for argument's sake even if we managed to attract some people to migrate, they cant obviously be settled in far spread out hamlets..We will need to create colonies/ghettos, that are substantially self contained...They would immediately be a target with a bulls eye painted for all manners of jihadi violence and quasi jihadi protesters..Which would mean that we have to set up static security around these ghettos...The last example of any "planned settlement" of a large scale that we have seen is the settlement of ex-servicemen in the Punjab plains by the British..the closest post-independence example is Chandigarh...But both these are very different cases..
an "easier" option is to create more opportunities for Kashmiris in the rest of India - most of the work for this has to be done in J&K - the Kashmiri education levels are really appalling...A greater economic engagement will result in automatically reducing the levels of alienation..
Forgotten People of Jammu and KashmirRajeshA wrote:I don't know how many of these refugees from PoK came into India, but I presume their numbers were not such to make a big dent in the composition of the local populace.
Secondly for refugees coming from PoK Poonch etc. the closest area across the border would probably be Jammu, as was the case in 1947/1948. This time, the crossing can be somewhere else.
Thanks to the settlement politics initiated during Sheikh Abdullah's period, those who migrated from PoK even today live as 'tenants' in the Jammu region. Today, there are more than 1,200,000 people from PoK staying in and around Jammu with no political status, nor with any promise from the State and Union governments on where they stand in the Kashmir conflict.
Refugees from Muzaffarabad desiring to settle in Kashmir valley were not allowed to settle there. Some 300 families of Muzaffarabad who had settled in District Kupwara of Kashmir valley were uprooted again and pushed to Jammu.
Since PoK refugees were not Kashmiris, there were not allowed to settle in the Kashmir valley. The J&K Government never wanted PoK refugees to settle in the territory. It was the central government's support that allowed some refugees to settle in the Jammu region. Many others were forced to settle in other states like Punjab, Rajasthan and UP.
Can we say with any stretch of imagination that government of India will ever retrieve PoK territory? Has our government enough capacity to achieve that goal? Common sense would answer these questions in "No" and "Never" answers. The Government of India has been employing this excuse to delay this most vital issue of compensation for 60 years now. The fact remains that over a million PoK refugees are denied the right to their property. They are being grossly fooled. Even though the Government of India talks of retrieving PoK territory, it has practically closed the case of PoK refugees as a non-issue and is going to the extent of treating the holocaust of 1947 as a non-event and PoK Refugees as non-entities.
We know there is no hope from the Congress (I); as for the other national party, the BJP, it cruelly disappointed Western Jammu refugees before the last assembly election:RajeshA wrote:There is however some rationale to think that knowing how they are, the Indian politicians could think differently on this issue
Taking a dig at BJP, he said that the only political party these refugees believed would do some thing for them has also betrayed them by not including anything for them and on the contrary the party has discriminated with them by announcing five seats each for Kashmiri migrants and these refugees.
"How could the Saffron Party have equalised us with Kashmiri migrants while we are 12 lakh in number while Kashmiri migrants are only two lakh," maintained Chuni. "Valley migrants are franchising their votes in their constituencies while being in Jammu and Delhi while same right has not been given to POK refugees.
Punjabis don't need to be settled in FATA/NWFP because these regions have always been home to the Islamist mindset, global jehad, and a terror factory. Allies and supporters of the Pakistan Army even today.somnath wrote:even a quasi dictatorship cannot do this sort of thing in a security challenged environment - for example, settling Punjabis in FATA/NWFP
It is all about the political will, not finding the solution.RajeshA wrote:A Possible Kashmir Solution
The logic behind my question goes as follows: -
a) Often the host population (in this case Kashmiris) hold the ethnic cleansers or human rights violators responsible, if there is a large-scale refugee crisis. For example, if Tibetans come streaming down to India, then we will hold Chinese responsible for causing the refugees to flee, etc. Similarly the Kashmiris would be angry at the Pakistanis for causing such an exodus, for which the Kashmiris have to suffer.
This is the usual dynamic. I don't know if it works in case of Kashmir.
b) Secondly when there is a population displacement, usually the host country (India) tries to decide, where the refugees will settle down. Often it is near the border region. If the refugees enter India, say through the various transit routes which have been opened for inter-Kashmir travel, then the refugees might end up settling down in refugee camps near those border crossings (in Kashmir itself).
So there is a perfect logic, why the refugees settle down in Kashmir.
c) A refugee exodus usually entails a humanitarian crisis, and for humanitarian reasons, it is not nice to deny them asylum and comfort.
So the Kashmiris cannot just deny the refugees shelter. They can deny Indian citizens the right to abode in Kashmir, but refugees from outside India are not Indian citizens.
d) The tent cities that will come up would at first be declared temporary. With time things become more permanent.
e) 3 million refugees in Kashmir Valley would change the ethnic complexion of Kashmir for ever.
f) There will be anger amongst the refugees towards the Pakistanis for causing them to flee their homes, and there will be anger amongst the Kashmiris towards the Pakistanis for causing them this trouble.
g) Hindu & Sikh refugees will organize themselves politically snatching the control of the Kashmir state from the hands of the thankless Kashmiri Muslims. Something like what the Muslim Urdu-speaking Mohajirs did to the Sindhis in Karachi, and the Pushtun immigrants have done to Mohajirs in Karachi.
h) After 10 years, the Hindu+Sikh refugees in Kashmir will be naturalized as Kashmiri Indians, giving them the right to abode in Kashmir itself. It will cause a lot of consternation, but what the hell.
i) Then the Kashmiri Pundits who fled Kashmir can start returning to Kashmir as the overwhelming number of refugee Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir would provide a much more secure environment to the returning Kashmiri Pundits.
j) The Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan are used to living in an extremist Muslim dominated area, so they are much more comfortable dealing with the associated problems.
k) Since J&K itself has been responsible for the displacement of so many Kashmiri Pundits from there, and other areas of India have had to take in these refugees, J&K has lost the moral space to complain about refugees coming from elsewhere. If other areas can take in refugees from J&K, J&K can also take in refugees from elsewhere.
l) The irony of it all would be that Pakistanis would have lost any chance of recovering Kashmir due to their own barbarity at home against the minorities.
m) India would have secured Kashmir for ever without violating Article 370. The Kashmiri Pundits would have returned. The Kashmiri Muslims would learn how to adjust to a Hindu majority.
Do you really want a Karachi to be made out of Kashmir? For all the media coverage, the fact is that violence levels in Kahsmir in the last 4-5 years have shown a distinct downward trend, thanks to all the Israeli gizmos on the border and sharper political management....A Karachi redux would send Kashmir straight back into international limelight...The model to be used here is really Karachi.
Having said that along with the above we need the GOI to curb the separatists from raising their head .In recent months after having been snubbed by the locals separatists have changed their strategy instead of demanding for a free Kashmir they have now started talking about Human Rights,atrocities by the IPS/IA and even clubbed the usual kapada,makan and roti with the rhetoric . Above is a dangerous development for it will be lapped up by the media and if consistently repeated over next few years will only worsen the situation.an "easier" option is to create more opportunities for Kashmiris in the rest of India - most of the work for this has to be done in J&K - the Kashmirir education levels are really appalling...A greater economic engagement will result in automatically reducing the levels of alienation..
Any analogy that one offers has to be seen as an analogy with applicability limited to only certain aspects.somnath wrote:Do you really want a Karachi to be made out of Kashmir? For all the media coverage, the fact is that violence levels in Kashmir in the last 4-5 years have shown a distinct downward trend, thanks to all the Israeli gizmos on the border and sharper political management....A Karachi redux would send Kashmir straight back into international limelight...The model to be used here is really Karachi.
And your prescription will lead exactly close to that - make a Karachi out of Kashmir...forever violent between groups with even greater security force interventions, leading to inevitably more issues with human rights etc...
)..