India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 29 Jul 2009 22:49

The GOI and Govt of TSP are hand in glove, in creating the problem for India and Indians. Other wise there is no rationale to explain the inaction of GOI.

On a second thought, the TSP govt says non state actors are behind the 26/11 mumbai massacare, that is quite possible and we Indians need to understand like our PM, that TSP itself is under grave attacks from terrorists,

My question is we have so many (non state) actors in bollywood, Malluwood, tollywood, some tiger in woods (naxals) yet we cant engage them in TSP like TSP does in India?

Dont we have a single pathological serial killer in our Tihar ( may be they are all MPs?) or Bihar to train and let loose in TS pakistan?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jul 2009 23:12

I am not surprised at MMS now. He's the typical WKK, IK Gujral types. The only difference beween him and IKG is he's an economist and swayed 'away' from the socialist mode, while IKG was a typical congress type steeped in socialism.

MMS belongs to the drawing room chatter knowledge deriving middle class that has got it's strategic knowledge all these years reading TOI in the Toilet before other mundane tasks and going to Office and coming home tired and then being elevated to FM and PM..

But thats what 'we' wanted. Educated guy at the top. We must introspect on what 'education' some of the slick talkers have. Indra Nooyani? A. Roy? Can they run the country just coz they are 'educated'?

Liberalism is good. But it's ONLY really good amongst 'different' folks who believe in 'differences'. It does not translate automatically to creeds, dogmas and cults that swear "My crap is holier than thou's" types of folks.

I have a feeling that a lot of GOI babu's think everyone thinks like them. I want peace and get back with my family at the end of the day..so does everyone. No. Wrong.

There is a naivete in the Indian psyche that needs exposure. Krishna exposed that very well in Arjuna. People need to read BG again. I have a gut feeling BG and MB is not Itihas...but it's thee portent of the future. JMT/

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 30 Jul 2009 00:19

Terms of surrender

Rajiv Dogra

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is fond of repeating that he is an accidental politician. But if the national mood post-Sharm el-Sheikh is any indication, people seem to be asking as to why he must make the country’s foreign policy ‘accident prone’. Who else could have returned from an inconsequential NAM Summit with a full scale disaster?

The Prime Minister, after Wednesday’s debate in Parliament, is wrong twice over. Issuing the joint statement at Sharm el-Sheikh after his meeting with Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani was bad enough. To belatedly provide an unconvincing defence of it in Parliament is worse still. The issue is not one of rhetoric but the substance of it.

Should the joint statement have been issued at all, because this must be a rare instance in international diplomacy where one of the parties seemed intent on following the suicidal path with its eyes wide open? How else can one explain the surrender at Sharm?

But first things first: Since the Prime Minister himself was silent on the issue in his reply in Parliament, let’s first investigate as to who drafted the joint statement. People who allege that the statement was crafted by Indian hands are indulging in calumny.

We in India may be naïve, we can easily be swayed by sentiment, and others have often taken advantage of our soft, amiable ways. But let this be clear to one and all — we are definitely not bad draftsmen.

We are the proud bearers of an ancient civilisation, and in modern times we have produced punctilious stylists of language. We could teach the British themselves a thing or two about correct usage of words. As bureaucrats, our delegates have enjoyed, for years, a formidable reputation for insisting on the right placement of commas and full stops.

In sum we can be justly proud of our ability to outfox the finest negotiators in the proper and correct form of a draft; one that lives up to the highest standards that we have set for ourselves. A good Indian diplomat would not touch such a document, as the one issued at Sharm el-Sheikh, with a barge pole, except may be to tear it to pieces.

This can only be a draft prepared and presented by the other side. Even there, one should fix the responsibility only on a certain section of it. If the recent news coming in from Pakistan is any indication, this draft couldn’t have been vetted by President Asif Ali Zardari either.

These days Mr Zardari seems to have employed a superb stylist to write his articles, and a person like him wouldn’t have countenanced the workman like rough and ready language of the joint statement. It is, therefore, entirely feasible that Mr Zardari had no inkling of it, and that he read about it over a news agency’s ticker.

Obviously then such a draft could only have been the work of a man or an organisation who or which thinks in a linear fashion. A man or an entity that has an ‘us versus them’ view, where each encounter is just that — a battle that must be won.

Since Mr Gilani has the bearing of a cautious bureaucrat, he couldn’t have dictated such a wily draft all by himself. This statement can then only be the handiwork of the Pakistani Army; no one else should be made to shoulder the blame for its language. Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon did well to distance himself from it at the earliest opportunity possible.

If the Foreign Secretary has distanced himself from the draft, who then was associated with it from the India side? Perhaps no one. Is it then possible that our blind faith in Pakistan’s goodness has led us into a blind acceptance of it? How else do you explain the utter one-sidedness of it?

What is truly incredible is the climb-down it represents from the position taken by our Prime Minister in Yekaterinburg. There he had thundered to a baffled Mr Zardari that his mandate was to see whether Pakistan fulfilled its assurance that its territory would not be used for terrorist attacks on India. That was powerful stuff coming from our mild-mannered Prime Minister.

A few weeks later, the joint statement from Sharm has been likened exactly to the term ‘sharm’ by critics in India. It was this outrage that led eventually to the debate in Parliament. There was expectation that the Prime Minister would provide a substantive response; at least that is what the selective leaks to media seemed to suggest.

Instead, what the nation heard was couched in bureaucratese. Its language may not have been as bad as that of the Sharm statement, but what was conveyed in effect was the grim prime ministerial conclusion that since war is not an option, we must engage in dialogue. Is this another way of saying that since we have run out of all other options, we are going to follow the policy of appeasement?

The other refrain in his reply was that the NDA, too, had made mistakes in dealing with Pakistan. This is strange logic. Must the nation suffer the consequences of duplication of past mistakes by this Government? Can’t it learn from those mistakes and make sure that they are not repeated? {This is again a show of dishonesty from the PM. How long he can talk about NDA's mistakes. NDA was in power for a negligible timeperiod of five years and he is going to be PM until 2014. If they are still talking about NDA rule then that meagre five years got to be a golden period of India. Other why should INC which rules for 60 years need to refer the stupid Five years.}

The Prime Minister then went on to explain at great length how his recent meetings with the Pakistani leadership have convinced him that now there is a political consensus there against terrorism. Such faith in Pakistan’s leadership is admirable, but as the rest of the world knows only too well, Gen Pervez Musharraf was even more vocal in pledging to fight terrorism. And yet terrorist organisations continued to receive aid and support from Pakistani agencies.

The harsh reality of Pakistan is that its Army is of the conviction that terror is an invaluable tool. The other reality of Pakistan is that with nearly 1,50,000 terrorist cadre on the loose, this terror brigade has become a state within the state. Any nebulous political consensus among Pakistan’s political leaders carries little weight with either the Army or organisations like the LeT.

Whether the Prime Minister has succeeded in persuading Parliament is open to doubt, but if one of the aims of his reply was to deter Pakistan and its terrorists then he has definitely not succeeded in lessening that challenge.

The twists and turns in the Indian position, between Yekaterinburg and Sharm, are the stuff of a mystery plot. As a work of fiction, it may have provided for gripping read. Fortunately in fiction no one gets hurt, but in real life people do get hurt and blood flows. No responsible nation tolerates the loss of even a single life. Yet we paper over our wounds repeatedly.

There is a feeling, however, that with time 26/11 too shall be forgotten so that the business of dialogue can proceed — a dialogue that includes principally, from Pakistan’s point of view, the issue of Jammu & Kashmir.

-- The writer is a former Ambassador

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Jul 2009 00:27

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&n ... YM&topic=w

Gilani reciprocates Indian PM’S Sentiments

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani has reciprocated the sentiments for peace expressed by Indian Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh during his address to Lok Sabha today.

In response to Indian Prime Minister’s statement at Lok Sabha, the Prime Minister said that at Sharm El Sheikh “we had useful talks and a good meeting of minds. We had agreed that terrorism was a common threat,and that dialogue is the only way forward”.

He said that Indian Prime Minister had rightly emphasized the importance of honourable settlement of the outstanding issues between India and Pakistan.

The Prime Minister commended Dr. Manmohan Singh for his bold vision of peace and prosperity in South Asia and the statesmanship that he has demonstrated.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 30 Jul 2009 00:47

MMS said on the floor of the parliament that there has been no dossier handed out vis-a-vis blochistan.

So what is the official Paki position now ? Didnt their media carry reports of a dossier being handed out, leaving the poor SDREs cowering in their dhotis and thus agreeing to sign the joint statement ?

In anycase, the die hard optimist in me says that there is still hope. Expression of disgust and outrage at downhill skiing by MMS still makes him shiver in his dhoti and issue statements in the parliament. Be pissed folks, be very pissed. That is the only way of avoiding us being sold out.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Jul 2009 00:50

The Prime Minister commended Dr. Manmohan Singh for his bold vision of peace and prosperity in South Asia

Coming from Gilani, it means that the next attack is already on the anvil.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 30 Jul 2009 04:05

Raj Malhotra wrote:MMS = Morarji Desai after 32 years.

BRites will understand what I am saying!

I do not know how much of the article is spin as I beleive we have to take Josy Joseph's articles with a pinch of salt.

Balochistan broach irks spy setup

Josy Joseph / DNA

The prime minister’s (PM’s) decision to allow the inclusion of Balochistan in the Indo-Pak joint statement issued after the talks at Sharm el Sheikh in Egypt has not gone down well with the intelligence establishment.

The intelligence community warned that in the long run, Indian operatives could come under sharper focus from Pakistan. Except for a minority of liberals, the community is upset by the PM’s eagerness to include Balochistan.

Besides the fact that none of the agencies was consulted, the intelligence set-up is disappointed that the “advantage” India enjoyed on the issue of terrorism has been “wasted away”.

A former chief of a spy agency said both the “timing and context” of mentioning Balochistan were wrong. “In fact, the effort should have been to expand the demand from Mumbai’s perpetrators to include a complete change in Pakistan’s strategy on terrorism. We should have brought up the refuge given to Dawood Ibrahim and Sikh terrorists,” he said, adding, “Instead, we have diluted our stand.”

Many officers felt the PM’s decision posed “further risk” to India’s intelligence operatives.“Now, the Pakistani establishment will desperately look for evidence (to implicate India),” an intelligence officer said. He said the Indian intelligence agencies did not have much “operative” presence in Balochistan and the Pakistani claim of having proof of India’s activities in the region was incorrect.

The minority liberals had a different take. “In the long run, Pakistan is also a loser. The Balochistan issue has been internationalised, which also means more credibility to the Baloch rebels,” another former head of a spy agency said.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 30 Jul 2009 04:47

Balochistan broach irks spy setup

This was was what I posted couple of pages ago. We not only screwed ourselves but also screwed any allied intelligence operatives who were sharing their scrap papers. Now good luck to our (and in way Good excuse too for any future failures) Rawed operators.

I for now have come to conclusion that GOI is hand in glove with the terrorist coming accross the border into India.

" Also I recived this in email from a lurker of BRF"

Dear John

I often read BRF and notice that you are one of the strident critic of GOI with regard to terrorism and Pakistan. I have seen you post valid points against ABV & LK while the NDA was in power, I also see you criticize the current MMS govt.

You are most often on the point, but in the case of recent moves by MMS, you are not in sync with the current affairs. I am sorry that you are not able to grasp what the strategy of our PM is vis a vis TSP.

Look, MMS wanted to deflect the world attention from SSBN launch and he is waiting for it to become operational so that he can then have second strike ready and easily checkmate even US with the new Sub. This is his SUB continental strategy. Also while the new SUb may have some slipaages in the commision dates. If ands when it happens we can turn itis to our advantage> It gives that much more time for the economy to grow, that much more time for DRDO to operationalize the Agni I II III IV V and may be VI. Meanwhile BARC is not going sit idle as it is now "N" powerd America our strategic partner. Barc will churn out by kilos if not tonnes of enriched U for Breaders, Bums and Subs.

The future is bright for TS Pakistan with ato(mat)ic glow.
Just you wait and see.
There is the plan and MMS is economist. He will not waste any thing . May be couple of words on panchayat raj. Thats just small talk, focus on the big talk.
Good luck
Sincerely
XXXX
****

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 30 Jul 2009 04:53

brihaspati wrote:
The Prime Minister commended Dr. Manmohan Singh for his bold vision of peace and prosperity in South Asia
Coming from Gilani, it means that the next attack is already on the anvil.

I doubt it. Basically, TSP will not risk it. Of course, we have to watch what MMS offer TSP on the Kashmir front; if he sticks to India's traditional stand, except for chai biskoot sessions, then after a lull of about 6-8 months or so, we can expect some action. But for the moment TSP will wait watch what MMS can offer them. TSP terror is fetching them rewards.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 30 Jul 2009 05:23

brihaspati wrote:
The Prime Minister commended Dr. Manmohan Singh for his bold vision of peace and prosperity in South Asia
Coming from Gilani, it means that the next attack is already on the anvil.

Well, the most important question will be what will India do as response for the next Mumbai?
i) Thunder no one will be able to bend our knees.
ii) Say Global (Unkil) is keenly looking into the matter to rein in rogue elements in Pak(which would mean everyone except Balochs)
iii) Try proving that it was handiwork of local phenomena with possible input from Ramar Sena.
iv) Sign an agreement with Groper or dus percent saying India has no intentions in Chitral region?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 30 Jul 2009 05:41

No Indians are more smarter than that. All of the above listed have been already talked, said, thundered, whimpered, whispered, and implored.

We will turn to something new, like India and TSP will jointly fight terrorism and lawlessness in Somalia. That will be face saving for all concerned no?

Meanwhile Arihant will be commisioned and will go on to hunt Ari ( which is also called eddidos)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Jul 2009 05:43

John Snow wrote: " Also I recived this in email from a lurker of BRF"

Dear John

. . . .There is the plan and MMS is economist. He will not waste any thing . May be couple of words on panchayat raj. Thats just small talk, focus on the big talk.
Good luck
Sincerely
XXXX
****

Truly mind blowing and a well thought out Chanakyan move, if ever there was one.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 30 Jul 2009 05:49

'Trust But Verify' says Great UnCommunicator MMS

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 30 Jul 2009 05:57

SSridhar wrote:Truly mind blowing and a well thought out Chanakyan move, if ever there was one.

New meaning of creativity is capitulation. Chanakya would have learnt a few things from MMS.

One of the greatest wild cards of MMS's chamchas in the Nuke deal debate was based on technicalities in nuclear field. Every dissident strategist was washed off as not knowing nuclear technicalities enough.

Even that fig leaf is missing here.

national energies are being wasted needlessly, again.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 30 Jul 2009 06:08

ok folks I fess up. I made up that email story to spin some satire. I cant allow MMS to take credit for my Spin and imagination which he is incapable of.

Reminds me of baban Khan Hyderabadi drama 'Adrak ke Panje".
"Are baba therko damak hai bolta, nahi tho thum ko mai Conistable bana detha"

In response to a prospective job seeker (constituent) upon approaching his MLA for a job ( having had no education, skills, but honest and humble enough to admit that he is not elite)

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 30 Jul 2009 06:51

Time to lock? The horse is not just dead but stinking. Would be nice to continue discussion of Balochistan (non)issues in the Balochistan Genocide thread and the (non)terrorist issues in the Pak Terrorism thread.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 30 Jul 2009 06:58

yes nothing much to report , like good editors of any news rag we draged this non issue to so many pages.
Open a new one when PM opens his mouth or mind.

Lock, stock .... etc etc.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 30 Jul 2009 07:02

OK, folks. If someone wants to unlock it, that's fine. For now, it seems that the next events will be someone getting themselves banned because there is nothing left to do but bicker. So let me be proactive and rescue them.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jul 2009 20:38

Folks, when a thread is started by moving the relevant posts, the forum software moves them into the new thread in the order they were first posted. What that means is even if on page 6, Pranay suggests starting this thread, the forum software will show that the thread was started by the one who made the first post. The forum software doesnt allow the name to be changed. So no intent to take away anyone's thunder.

ramana

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 31 Jul 2009 00:55

ramana wrote:Folks, when a thread is started by moving the relevant posts, the forum software moves them into the new thread in the order they were first posted. What that means is even if on page 6, Pranay suggests starting this thread, the forum software will show that the thread was started by the one who made the first post. The forum software doesnt allow the name to be changed. So no intent to take away anyone's thunder.

ramana

Actually between you and me, is there a prize for who starts a thread?

I think the content of a post is more important!

archan · Post by **archan** » 31 Jul 2009 01:57

Cross posted from TSP thread is this post by Satya_Anveshi:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US bails out India from Balochistan wrangle

WASHINGTON: Pakistan has not provided any evidence to the United States of India's involvement in the insurgency in Balochistan, and Washington
attaches no credibility to Islamabad's charges in this regard, a top US official has indicated.

The US view on Pakistan's allegation came during a briefing by the Obama administration's Af-Pak envoy Richard Holbrooke, who, while acknowledging that Pakistan brought up the subject during his recent visit to the country, told Washington's foreign press corps, "I would be misleading if I said it didn't come up, but the narrow answer to your question (has Pakistan given you any credible evidence of India's involvement?) is no."

Holbrooke's terse response to the Balochistan wrangle -- the latest between India and Pakistan -- broadly squares with the assertion in New Delhi that while Pakistan has raised the issue of India's alleged involvement in the region, it has offered no evidence, even as it falsely propagates in the Pakistani media that it has give a dossier to New Delhi in this regard. The Pakistani press is full of dark conspiracies of Indian intelligence involvement in the province, an inference to which New Delhi credulously allowed Islamabad to incorporate in a joint statement at Sharm-el-Sheikh.

The US has now, in effect, bailed out New Delhi. Holbrooke has previously rubbished Pakistan's charges about alleged Indian provocations from its consulates in Afghanistan, saying he had no reason to believe Islamabad's charges, and Pakistan would do well to examine its own internal problems. Other officials too have said Pakistan is merely trying to externalize a serious internal crisis while evading responsibility to crack down on home-grown terrorism.

In fact, Holbrooke's briefing following his latest visit to the region was notable for its dire tone with regard to Pakistan, a country which he characterized as "facing a staggering number of front-page story problems at one time." Describing Washington's efforts to stamp out terrorists in Pakistan frontier province, Holbrooke said it "hard to imagine a more dangerous area on the face of the earth today than an area which contains al-Qaida, Pakistani Taliban, Afghan Taliban, two and a half million refugees. It's just extraordinary how difficult it is."

The US envoy also trashed speculation about a rift with India that led to the reported cancellation of his visit to New Delhi with an extraordinary revelation. "You know, if there's a rift between me and India, it would be the first rift between me and India since I was seven years old. You know, India was the first country in the world I was ever aware of. I have a very special feeling for it," Holbrooke said.

Such expression of personal affection for countries is seldom expressed by US officials and is certain to rankle Pakistan, which is already sour about a perceived American tilt towards India over the last decade. Holbrooke went on to clarify that the only reason he scrubbed the New Delhi leg of his visit was because three of the four Indian interlocutors he engaged with were all going to be out of town. He would be going back in mid August, "within the limits of Indian independence (day)."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jul 2009 04:30

Re-opening as there seems to be still info trickling in.

ramana

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 31 Jul 2009 05:40

http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/jul/ ... -raman.htm

The prime minister used former US President Ronald Reagan as a prop by quoting his remark: 'Trust, but verify'. Yes, he had said it. In 1986 some US soldiers were killed by an explosion in a West Berlin discotheque. The US investigators established that the terrorists had come from Libya. After verification, he ordered the US Air Force [ Images ] to bomb the training centre in Libya.

Indian investigators have clearly verified and established that the terrorists who attacked Mumbai were trained in POK.

Will the prime minister emulate Reagan?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 31 Jul 2009 06:08

Ouch! That was a hard kick by Holbrooke on the H&D!

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 31 Jul 2009 07:43

Folks,

MMS is selling out India, Take SeS or Nuke deal or many other things. Inside India, he is promoting corruption like there is no tomorrow (eg pls see recent rice scam Outlook reported).

So what solutions would you like to work on?

---

I will campaign to create procedure by which citizens can replace PM without waiting for 5 years.

What solutions would you like to work on?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Jul 2009 07:46

BTW RMji whatever solutions someone proposes you will not listen to it and you will keep harping that judges netas and everyone except you is corrupt. Why solicit opinions when you are anyways not going to read through them?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 31 Jul 2009 07:55

MMS is selling out India because he and his Kaangress Party masters are desperate for an external patron to help them hang onto power. Give the Kaangressmen a choice between Country versus Party with its perks of power and privilege, and you know which choice the Kaangressmen will make. There is no grand vision of peace here, the guy is just a moron. We all saw what happened to Ehud Barak's govt.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Jul 2009 08:00

Clearing the air - The Hindu
Excerpts

On Pakistan, Manmohan Singh walked a fine line. He refuted his domestic critics who erroneously saw the joint statement at Sharm el-Sheikh as a weakening of India’s position on the need for Pakistan to take firm action against terrorists operating from its soil. But he also firmly held out a hand of friendship to the Pakistani leadership. There was no wobble in his defence of the government’s approach, no resiling from commitments, and no dilution of principle. At the same time, the vision he held out was one of rational engagement. ‘Trust but verify’ were the watchwords he used. India is going to keep talking to Pakistan at different levels because there is no alternative, but the fact is that there can be no meaningful dialogue — that is, dialogue that goes beyond the formality of meeting towards the resolution of outstanding issues — unless Pakistan delivers on its commitments. {So, what are they going to be talking about ? Weather, food & wine, Bollywood or more exotic things ? This is the epitome of confused thinking masquerading as great statesmanship} This is the reality of the situation and the civilian leadership across the border understands this well.{The civilian leadership across the border has always been cleverer than us and this time too.}

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 31 Jul 2009 08:43

Why should unkil bail out India? whats in it for him?

Simple Sardarji and his Hari Haran combo ( MK Narayanan & Shiv Shankar Menon) is the best thing to happen at bargain basement prices. Unkil ji says kaun hai, Sardar & Combo Ji sarkar apke Hukum sarkar

In SSB when they select young men who are ready to serve, they look for OLQ, which are Leadership, Vision, communication, commitment,General Knowledge, strategic thinking and bit of being capable of diplomatic stance (to the extent of not saying or articulating something that is controversial, indefensible and void of common sense)

but for the current Indian PM and his dynamic combo all these are abstract and alien it appears

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Jul 2009 08:43

Sanjay M wrote:MMS is selling out India

You see outbursts such as these are used by the so called mod-e-rates and chankian folks to divert the topic and

about folks abusing MMS; kindly avoid wasting adjectives while framing your case...please.

archan · Post by **archan** » 31 Jul 2009 08:58

Go ahead and graduate to maa bahen ki gaali. I am not going to say anything anymore. I wonder however, what is this consistent talk of "he is a traitor" " this is a sellout" etc. going to do except contribute to forum noise. Clearly the people of India prefer voting to MMS over Modi and there is nothing anyone here can do about it. Perhaps such posts only make the postors feel better I guess, but that's about it.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 31 Jul 2009 09:10

I think many BRFites will be suffering from High BP and anxiety attacks if this thread is not locked up soon.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2009 09:12

negi wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:MMS is selling out India
You see outbursts such as these are used by the so called mod-e-rates and chankian folks to divert the topic and about folks abusing MMS; kindly avoid wasting adjectives while framing your case...please.

It can only be a veiled whine to say "MMS is selling India out" for the following reasons:

It is designed as a "panic statement" to alert people that the Indian prime minister is selling the country. The act of selling the country is not time bound - no time limit is stated. As long as the person or his political party exists - selling the country out is an ongoing process.

If - after 5 years or 10 years a new government is formed and the country is not sold, then these whines will be forgotten and nobody will be there to ask for accountability regarding the allegation. As long as the actual treasonous act that the PM is accused of is kept fuzzy like "selling the country" and political event that the accuser does not like is "proof" that country is being sold.

One does not have to be a Kaangress or MMS supporter to recognize the idiocy of these whines. They are mindless whines adding to noise rather than info because these statements are designed to lack any accountaiblity or explanation.

The forum management (of which I used to be a part) gets subtly emotionally blackmailed to allow this kind of idiocy.

Sanjay M is allowed to say "The Indian Prime minister is selling the country". Whether that is true or not may be moot - but he is allowed to say it.

But if I say "Sanjay M is a mindless whiner" it becomes and ad hominem regardless of whether my statement is true or not.

Under the circumstances I think the best logical conclusion would be to commence ad hominem against forum members who make idiotic whines and catch out the admins for allowing an accusation against a PM which is not required to be proven while they guard foolish forum member against ad hominems while they continue to whine without accountability or proof.

I don't really care whether any of you think I am a Sonia/MMS ass licker or not but that is my view. I am the guy who was once warned on this forum for making a joke about Aishwarya Rai because she is "a known and respected personality"

What sort shit is being propagated on BRF? Wake up sensible folks.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 31 Jul 2009 09:13

you mean Bharat Petroleum with a high flash point?

Just read shiv guru's post.

The difference between PM and forumte is one is public servant the other is public service oriented articulate (SOA) Derivative of hindi word SOJA (sleep) SOA is a state of mind. Rt Hon BRfite is entitled to his SOA.

MMS is not selling the country, He Serves Them Right for electing him.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2009 09:18

I thik this bloody thread should be locked up andd thrown away.

It appears extremely stupid that it was locked twice by someone and unlocked twice by someone else. That is a unique "first" for BRF and what a thread to lock and unlock twice. One would think its the Gita that is being discussed.

Obviously admins disagree with each other but are unable to disagree in public. They are not even able to agree to moderate the thread or start a new one

Thrown this fu9king thread out and discuss the same stuff with fewer while on some other thread please. Come on make up your minds you ditherers - otherwise I will start putting up statititcs of how many posts on this thread counts as absolute bullshit and how many are sensible.

And in no way will my post be degrading the quality of this thread which is a frigging shame at this point in time.

Throw this thread in the trashcan.

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Jul 2009 09:22

MMSji is the greatest PM India has produced...period. Infact I propose he and PM Geelaniji be nominated for Nobel peace prize for bringing peace and stability in the Asian subcontinent .

Btw I am from now on going to report each and every post on this fora which uses epithets like 10 % and Groper . Yeah I am serious.

archan · Post by **archan** » 31 Jul 2009 09:23

shhh... shiv ji, don't use the word "whine" and don't call them "whiners". It is a personal attack.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2009 09:23

vsudhir wrote:Game over. Sad. The next 26/11 won't change anything either. Wonder why it hasn't happened yet, in fact.

Recall the criticism of NDA for all that Parakram buildup. At least UPA has spared us taxpayers the expense of a military buildup which would endup where we are today anyways.

Post 2 of this thread

A useful post or a whine?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2009 09:23

Nihat wrote:I feel like killing myself today because the blood of fellow citizens has been sold to the devil by this whole lot bunch of losers.

What message is it sending out , that anyone can come from TSP and kill our people , sure we'll create a ruckus initially but in the end we'll be bobbed down into submission and go back to square one , all that rhetoric was for nothing.

This is not acceptable , just not acceptable - I hope the opposition create huge noise over this in parliament and somehow get the govt. to climb down from this very compromising situation.

As an Indian , I feel cheated by own establishment.

Post 3

Information, or whine?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2009 09:24

krishnan wrote:"Game over. I lose You Win"

Post 4

Information

or whine?