J & K news and discussion

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shiv
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by shiv »

CRamS wrote:Guys:

On a scale of 0-10 (low to high), what are the chances MMS will surrender Kashmir valley to TSP by 2014? In my books, surrender does not necessariuly mean MMS handing over the keys to TSP at a special ceremony at the white house or Stockholm, Sweeden, but any concession that would give TSP an official say in the valley; this BS Mush has been peddling which apparently MMS agreed to, namely, joint control.

My prediction: 10.

How about 42?

The problem about such a "bet" is that it is a "heads I win tails you lose " proposition. If you are wrong, nobody would be happier that yourself. But if you are right, you can claim that you were right all along.

Why have such a worthless bet at all?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Airavat »

Daily Excelsior
The remote Ladakh region is all set to be connected with the railway network with the Government today saying the survey work for the project has begun following its sanction.

"Survey for construction of rail line between Bilaspur (Himachal Pradesh) to Leh (Ladakh) has been sanctioned and the survey work has been taken up," Minister of State for Railways K H Muniyappa said in the Lok Sabha in a written reply. He said broad gauge line will be laid connecting Bilaspur to Leh. This would be the second ambitious project in Jammu and Kashmir connecting the State with the rest of the country. The other being the Kashmir rail link project.

The Minister also informed the House that IRCON and Rail Land Development Authority are in the process of developing business models for the establishment of multi-functional complexes in selected railway stations in the country, the plan of which was announced in this Railway Budget.

He said that both the organisations are making a detailed action plan for execution of the work. Speaking to the media after dedicating the Kalka-Shimla track as a UNESCO heritage railway site, the minister said that a final location survey of the Bhanupali-Bilaspur rail track was being done before land acquisition for it could be initiated. Construction on the track estimated to cost about Rs 1050 crore would start only after the land acquisition is completed, he added.
Some older news items on the project:

Bilaspur-Leh answer to China's Tibet rail
The plan on paper is to build a railway line from Bilaspur to Leh covering approximately 400 km which, by a broad estimate, could end up costing around Rs 5,000 crore. Already, the Centre has agreed to provide Rs 1,000 crore for building the railway line from Bhanupalli to Bilaspur which can be then extended further.

Similarly, Rs 1,300 crore has been sanctioned for gauge conversion of the Pathankot-Jogindernagar railway line. The larger plan is that this line would intersect with the Bilaspur line that would carry on to Leh via the Rohtang Pass.

In all, the Centre is backing the Himachal government to build about 650 km of railway lines in the state which will have major strategic and economic significance. Currently, the broad estimate is that about Rs 8,000-10,000 crore will have to budgeted for this purpose.

Now that the PMO has given its nod, sources said, the various proposals would move faster with considerable pressure being brought on the Railways to carry out the requisite technical work.

China began its work on the Qinghai-Tibet railway more than two decades ago. Unlike this case, the Chinese had to build 1,956 km and the first stretch rom Qinghai to Golmund was built by 1984 while the all-important and challenging 1,142 km Golmund-Lhasa line was inaugurated only two years ago.

India is already working on an ambitious railway line into the Kashmir Valley. Top officials say the projects in Himachal Pradesh must also be taken up without delay so that connectivity can be provided to the strategically important Ladakh region.
News Item in PDF
16 Nov 2008, Himachal Pradesh is looking forward to a most significant rail expansion in the last sixty years. The ambitious Bhanupalli-Bilaspur-Mandi- Manali-Leh Railway Project is making headway, with the Ministry of Railways having sanctioned Rs. 81 lacs for Reconnaisance Engineering-cum-Traffic surveys for construction of new Broad Gauge railway line from Bilaspur to Leh via Kullu-Manali. The survey of 480 km Bilaspur-Leh rail link may take about two years.

Besides this the case of Pathankot-Jogindernagar Railway line will be put up to UNESCO for the grant of World Heritage Site status to this railway track. It has been due to the relentless efforts of the State Government which emphatically took up the rail project with the Central Government and impressed upon it to accept its national importance due to its
strategic significance as well, that the project has moved ahead. The Bhanupalli-Bilaspur-Mandi-Manali-Leh railway line, as an uninterrupted communication link to the border areas, can be of immense importance in meeting the security and developmental needs of the country, besides giving impetus to tourism activities in the State.

It will open new vistas of development and tourism particularly in Bilaspur-Mandi, Kullu and Lahaul & Spiti districts. It will also be helpful in preserving environment. The contribution of the State in maintaining ecology and preserving environment of the country is well known and has been duly appreciated at the national level. Himachal Pradesh has been recently awarded Diamond State Award for its environment protection endeavours. The Bhanupalli-Bilaspur-Mandi- Manali-Leh railway line will have its environmental significance also since it would decongest road traffic thereby minimizing pollution through fuel emission.

The work of this project would be undertaken on the basis of Clean Development Mechanism which would ensure environment preservation and will earn carbon credits to the state simultaneously. The rail line would provide all weather transportation facility to the areas of Lahaul-Spiti which remain cut off for almost six months in a year besides
strengthening the rail network in Leh area.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

RajeshA,

I dont think Hindus and Sikhs in Pak are "kins" of Kashmiris in any form..Most of them are settled in Sind and Punjab..

This whole business of demographic invasion is so outlandish for a liberal democracy to pull off that I cant even think of a relevant example in history (barring Israel, which as I mentioned is a very different example)..Even there, you would do well to read N Gordon's "Lords of the Land" for a desription of the experience (there are lots of others, but happened to read that book recently) - and the Israelis had an overwhelming ideological and strategic reason for doing it - we dont have one..

RamaY, no one's talking of Art 370 or anything like that...The moot point is that we have a problem in KAshmir, and we need to solve the problem..Macho philosophies of "lets burn them down, or swamp them with Hindus" are good for RSS ears, but not practical..The lessons from Punjab are moot..I am repeating what I said in an earlier post - a police led CI grid, ringfencing the borders out and sharper political management are the key to solving the Kashmir CI..

We have done very well in the last few years, now is the time to push the problem "over the cliff"...The macho thoeries create more problems without solving the current ones...

It is critical for our confrontation (not necessarily conflict) with China to have a degree of "peace" in Kashmir..We need to enforce the peace, "buy" the peace - do whatever - and the points on creating greater Kashmiri engagement with the Indian dream is the "buy" element..A bit similar to what the Turks are doing for its own Kurdish problem..

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/mi ... an2189.htm

After years of a military dominated response, which has yielded some results, the Turks are going in for the "buying" options as well..Again, not the same thing as Kashmir, but similar...

the big initiative from the GOI now should also be to speed up infra developemnt for the linkages to KAshmir - whether its the Leh Manali road or the rail link...Nothing wil work more than more KAshmiris seeing the Indian dream..
narayanan wrote:Gee, somnath, r u SURE u r not the somnath of "Laughter of Democracy" fame? Circa 1999/2000 when there was an election in J&K? 8)
You keep repeating this - but whats laughter of democracy?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

Somnath,
In all these demands on Goi and Indians , what are the responsibilities of Sunni Kashmiri Muslims? There is no one in india who will let the claim on J&K land go and rightly so . Accomodation has to be made by agitating Kashmiri Muslamans who must understand that they are on the wrong track . India can well manage their shenanigans as She has been doing: if KM want to live hellish life , aint anyone else fault. KMs are gulity of many crimes and if it has been in any other country , they would have been standing in long line waiting for their turn to receive heavenly reward.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Airavat »

narayanan wrote:There is a website called "indiatogether"....

Would u pls browse that (it is against policy to post urls of paki propagandoos here) and give us some good ammo to debunk that propaganda? in particular, this request is triggered by your mention of the massacres and refugees from Poonch and Mirpur. These fellows refer to some events that occurred long BEFORE october 1948.
Okay let's start with the first item in their 'chronology':
Jammu and Kashmir(J&K*) State is created under the Treaty of Amritsar between the East India company and Raja Gulab Singh of Jammu who buys Kashmir Valley from the East India Company for Rs.75,00,000 and adds it to Jammu and Ladakh already under his rule.
One of the most notorious myths propagated by the Islamists and their western supporters. The amount was for the entire "mountainous territory between the Indus and the Ravi", which included Gilgit, Hazara, Kashmir, Baltistan, Ladakh, Jammu, and Chamba. Out of these Jammu, Ladakh, and Baltistan were part of Gulab Singh's kingdom and under his direct rule.

This Kashmir-centric mythology is the source of many of our problems and the reason why the world talks of Kashmir and the "Kashmiris", while no one remembers Western Jammu, Gilgit, and Baltistan, which are occupied by the Pakistan army. And its specially tragic when even BRF members refer to "Kashmir and the Kashmiris" when the name of this thread is "J&K news and discussion". When talking specifically about Kashmir, the Hurriyat clowns, or the PDP-NC dramatics, ALWAYS describe it as "the Kashmir region of J&K State".
1931: The movement against the repressive Maharaja Hari Singh begins; it is brutally suppressed by the State forces.
Another astonishing lie
Seventy-eight years ago on July 13, 1931, the majority community in Kashmir rose in one body in support of a sheer communalist Abdul Qadir, who was not even a resident of the state and had come from Peshawar, now in Pakistan. On June 21, 1931, Qadir made a blistering speech at Khan Kahi Moula asking the majority community members to rise against the Hindu King and massacre non-Muslims. Later, he was arrested and charged with inciting communal passions. The communal Kashmiri elite remembers the event as "martyrs day" while the Kashmiri Pandits who were attacked by Sheikh Abdullah's Muslim Conference mark it as "black day" even today.
In Spring 1947, internal revolt begins in the Poonch region against oppressive taxation under the recently imposed direct rule by the Maharaja; Poonch was a predominantly Muslim area.
Poonch was a Hindu jagir with equal numbers of Hindus Muslims. The localised trouble began with a jehadi infiltration from newly-created Pakistan, as per General Scott, then commanding the J&K State forces: "Towards the end of August, a party of about 30 Muslims from Punjab entered Poonch..." These troublemakers were crushed and there was no further trouble until large-scale infiltration of the Pakistanis into Western Jammu towards the end of September.
In September, massacre of Muslims start in Jammu by armed bands of Hindus and Sikhs with active support from the State forces.
The massacres were of Hindus and Sikhs in Western Jammu by the Pakistani invaders and the communalized local Muslims. It's a gigantic stretch of credibility to state that the "State Forces", then tied down in towns and forts while facing the Pakistani invasion of J&K State, were at the same time freely roaming around killing Muslims :rotfl: .

Specially when their strength was less than 5000 (nine under-strength infantry battalions and a cavalry unit) scattered across 84,000 sq miles of mountainous terrain!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vikas »

RayC wrote:RayC:
Therefore, neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India.

My comment may sound OT, but it isn't. RayC, your statement could be generalized to many states of India. How much does an average(*) Punjabi know about Assamese culture? Or how much does an average Mizo know of Haryanvi culture?

You alluded to that when you said "if indeed there is a mainstream culture and ethos in India."

So if Oriyas, Biharis, Punjabis, Tamils and others can get together to form an India story, why can't Kashmiris?

-----
* I said "average", not you, the BRFite.
The answer is simple.

The Kashmiris are insular and lazy. Not my words but the words from 'Vale of Kashmir' By Lawrence.
Tamils, Oriyas etc are ready to 'explore'.
The Kashmiri psyche is not that adventurous!
RayC, by same logic, We can call Bengali's or Maharashtrians or Telgu's or other Indian communities to be <Fill in your word here> and quote some moron's book to hide behind it.
Had Kashmiri psyche not been adventurous, you would not have seen folks calling themselves descendent's of Kashmiri's in Kerala and Karanataka. IN fact I have heard Mangalorean Christians proudly calling themselves from Kashmir.

To say ,"Neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India" is factually wrong statement. How is this statement any different from the armchair critics for whom Kashmir is some faraway distant land.
I wonder what is that Majority of Indians don't understand about Kashmir , Kashmiri's and vice versa that you came to your conclusion.

The narrative of Kashmir as much of story of India as of anyone else's.
And who is Lawrence who you are quoting here. Pick a stone and you will find some idiot westerner criticizing Indic civilization and its people.

Let us respect our country and countrymen.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^ BTW, RayC's conclusion about Kashmiris being "lazy etc" is something that I have heard often from people who have worked in Kashmir, civvie or military...But that type of generalisation is pretty rampant all across, isnt it? the intel of the sardar, or the "non business like" nature of the bengali..Though I was foced by the "Lawrence" quoted by him..Who is he?
Prem wrote:Somnath,
In all these demands on Goi and Indians , what are the responsibilities of Sunni Kashmiri Muslims? There is no one in india who will let the claim on J&K land go and rightly so . Accomodation has to be made by agitating Kashmiri Muslamans who must understand that they are on the wrong track . India can well manage their shenanigans as She has been doing: if KM want to live hellish life , aint anyone else fault. KMs are gulity of many crimes and if it has been in any other country , they would have been standing in long line waiting for their turn to receive heavenly reward.
Absolutely, there are no "special" privilages to be given to them...We have done, and are doing the military bit..And I 100% agree that we can live with this level of low grade, sub conventional warfare for many years more..But mainstreaming is a cause that is moot for all parts of the country - the imperative in Kashmir is greater because of the strategic nature of the state..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vikas »

I think we should stop this flop idea of accommodating KM's as if GOI already has not gone out of the way to accommodate them. What has been the end result? A corrupt state govt with no industry worth mentioning. The land that has been turned from
Heavens on earth to living hell. A valley from where the native population has been kicked out by force.
A section of Population that is vehemently Anti-Indian and a leadership which feeds on blackmailing India.
It is said that there are no free lunches but KM's have had not only free lunches but supper and breakfast on the expense of GOI.
Enough of it. If it takes brutal force to defend India's unity and borders, so be it. Thank-you very much.

The People in Jammu and Ladakh and parts of Kashmir and Kashmiri Pandits don't want any special favors. They are Indians and want to be part and parcel of India and not some "special" step-child.

Infra structural development is fine, but why not for North East first, which has been permanently ignored by GOI. Lets treat J&K like we would treat any other state of the Union.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by enqyoob »

Airavat:

Thanks! That's what I thought. Let's see what to do about these lying *****s.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RajeshA »

somnath wrote:RajeshA,

I don't think Hindus and Sikhs in Pak are "kins" of Kashmiris in any form..Most of them are settled in Sind and Punjab..

I fail to understand, why you think this is relevant. It can't be a response to what I mentioned. I presume you refer to the following:
somnath wrote:As I said, even in totalitarian states it doesn't work - look at Xinjiang, look at Tibet..And China isnt even facing a full blown insurgency supported by a militarily capable nuke armed neighbor..
RajeshA wrote:If you noted, I never said, India should push other Indians into Kashmir to overwhelm the local populace. I want the 'kin' of the Kashmiris, the Pakistanis, to push other Indics into Kashmir to 'inadvertently' overwhelm the local populace.
Please read carefully. The 'kins' of Kashmiris, being referred to here are Pakistani Muslims, NOT Pakistani Indics.
somnath wrote:This whole business of demographic invasion is so outlandish for a liberal democracy to pull off that I can't even think of a relevant example in history (barring Israel, which as I mentioned is a very different example)..
somnath ji,
I'll tell you what is 'outlandish' and 'impossible' for a liberal democracy like India to pull off - to scrap Article 370 and to integrate J&K fully into India. That is the reason, why I am not even considering it.

Somehow you seem to think, that every pigeon that flutters its wings, has to get it sanctioned from Indian Parliament and go through public debates in the media, and Barkha Dutt has to first invite a panel of guests to comment upon it, and a few political parties' votes have to be bought in Parliament, and the masses need to be reassured, that "all is well", and some ministry babus have to put their stamps of approval on it, yada, yada.

The reality is that the "demographic invasion" of India's North East by Bangladeshis happened without the approval of any Indian Ministries or PMO or Indian Parliament. Similarly there were scores of Sri Lankan Tamils who came over without asking Times of India, what it thought of it.

I have never said, that GoI needs either be the initiator or the manager of the 'project'. A part of the Government machinery however needs to be acquiescent for its realization. The acquiescence of that part of the Government machinery can be ensured without the 'democratic process'.
somnath wrote:Even there, you would do well to read N Gordon's "Lords of the Land" for a description of the experience (there are lots of others, but happened to read that book recently) -
Let us remember here that the Bangladeshis have succeeded in a 'demographic invasion' also into territory occupied by followers of a different faith, just as I am proposing, but they have managed that even though the Indian Government is against illegal immigration and has tried to stop it.

Even in your favorite country, USA, there is illegal immigration going on. You don't believe that all the Mexicans living there came through H1B visas. Do you?
somnath wrote:and the Israelis had an overwhelming ideological and strategic reason for doing it - we don't have one..
Many in India would differ. Many Indians would say, they have an overwhelming ideological reason for it - to change the grip of Kashmir Muslim majority over the area. Many on BRF would concur with that view.

I mentioned the overwhelming strategic reasons for it.
  • creeping Wahabbism in the Valley,
  • inability of Indian State to integrate the population after 62 years into the Indian Mainstream,
  • continued secessionist tendencies,
  • PRC's strategic thrust into the region,
  • ambivalent to Paki-appeasing stand of the West,
  • prolongation of Indo-Pak conflict due to non-resolution of the 'core' issue
  • Nuclearization of Pakistan as well as PRC's co-option of Pakistan as a proxy due to non-resolution of conflict
  • dependence on P-5 members on the issue, and subsequent loss of foreign policy free space
  • abject lack of confidence in foreign policy, e.g. Kashmir cannot be internationalized, even though in reality it is
  • Kashmir being used as an excuse to foment terrorism in India by Pakistan
  • Freezing of J&K status internally in India through Article 370 preventing the states integration into the mainstream
I ask you:
If Bangladeshi 'demographic invasion' is a reality, why is Pakistani Hindu/Sikh 'demographic invasion' outlandish?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

RajeshA,

I am really confused now..
Please read carefully. The 'kins' of Kashmiris, being referred to here are Pakistani Muslims, NOT Pakistani Indics
So you want to swamp Kashmiri muslims with Paki ones? How does it help anything at all?
I have never said, that GoI needs either be the initiator or the manager of the 'project'. A part of the Government machinery however needs to be acquiescent for its realization.
So who do you think should be the initiator and manager of this project? The Bangladeshi immigration problem, serious as it is, is a result of economic reasons primarily - precisely the same reasons why hispanics immigrate to the US, Indias/Pakis/B'deshis to UK/US/Europe etc...Obviously there is no "natural economic pull" for anyone in Pakistan to immigrate to Kashmir - why should they do it then? And why should we welcome a bunch of Paki muslims here?

In case you want to discuss b'deshi immigration, lets discuss that - but OT here, isnt it?

In case it is a typo, and you actually mean atrtacting Paki hindus/sikhs, then none of the "strategic reasons" you mention are going to be tackled by opening another problem..Its a bit like Israel - its problems would have been far lesser, and its security far more compact if they didnt have all these settlements between Palestininan areas...they realise it now, but cant do anything about it..

We dont need to lessen the "grip of Kashmir Muslim majority over the area" - we control the area well enough...Many in BRF would concur..well, I would think that a lot more of the RSS wallahs would - and I have zero respect for the views of that uneductaed crowd..

Our bigger challenge is China, and our grand vision of Asian dominance cannot be acheieved if we are lost in tactical wranglings over Kashmir..Kashmir is a CI problem that needs to be "managed", we have (after many years) the essential things in place - its a question of finetuning them and executing..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Airavat »

somnath wrote:Our bigger challenge is China, and our grand vision of Asian dominance cannot be acheieved if we are lost in tactical wranglings over Kashmir..Kashmir is a CI problem that needs to be "managed", we have (after many years) the essential things in place - its a question of finetuning them and executing..
This is an illustration of BR members following the Islamist/western line and talking only of the Kashmir region of J&K State. The fact is that China occupies large parts of J&K State, it has constructed roads through Ladakh's eastern reaches, and it is connected to Pakistan through the Gilgit region of J&K.

When you score a self-goal by talking of "Kashmir" naturally the question of China does not come into the picture. Therefore always refer to the state as J&K!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^ Our struggle of dominance with China is not about territory - in the foreseeable future, either country is going to be able to "snatch" territory from each other..It is about ideas, about influence, about our standing in the world, about power (military and economic)...

The issue of Chinese occupation of J&K territory is a good talking point with Pakistan, but there isnt a realistic strateguic option to do something about it - at least not yet..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by AjayKK »

somnath wrote:Macho philosophies of "lets burn them down" are good for RSS
The love fest of fake secularism has moved to this thread now.

On BRF it has become acceptable to tar any groups associated with the H**** cause (word censored) as "burning, ravaging, raping, Nazi " etc. to appear as secular. These accusations are the usual hit and run types of which we have seen many over the years.

Exactly the same behaviour is established on Pak forums. (Calling them Deaf and Dumb is an insult to the differently abeld people suffering from such issues). Sewa bharati and aliied orgs. run various help camps in Jammu , but then they are apparently not counted i guess.

Can the eshteemed people point few incidences where in J&K , someone has espoused the "lets burn them down" philosophy from the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits' side AND proceeded to burn the houses of the KMs ?

There are many instances of such love fests , but then it would be from those inspired by the words of Benazir's speech of 1989.
(Youtube Link)

What was that thing about backing up with facts and face f*rts, as said by N3 jee?
Last edited by AjayKK on 31 Jul 2009 13:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^ Whoever mentioned Kashmiri pandits? However there are enough people talking of "brutally putting them down" philosophies..Limited point is that its impractical.and strategically naive..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Airavat »

somnath wrote:Our struggle of dominance with China is not about territory....in the foreseeable future, either country is going to be able to "snatch" territory from each other
Tell that to the Chinese. They are in occupation of Indian territory.

In talking of Chinese occupied territory or Pakistan occupied territory our aim is to not recover that land right now; it is to ensure that the debate over J&K in international circles, and policy making on J&K in Indian political circles, is not reduced to merely managing CI Ops or keeping Islamists in the Kashmir region happy.

J&K is an extremely strategic part of India and recovering the occupied lands is essential to breaking the China-pakistan link.

And BTW Hindus and Sikhs from Rawalpindi division did cross over into J&K during the partition riots.
Last edited by Airavat on 31 Jul 2009 14:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RajeshA »

somnath wrote:RajeshA,

I am really confused now..
Please read carefully. The 'kins' of Kashmiris, being referred to here are Pakistani Muslims, NOT Pakistani Indics
So you want to swamp Kashmiri muslims with Paki ones? How does it help anything at all?
I have never said, that GoI needs either be the initiator or the manager of the 'project'. A part of the Government machinery however needs to be acquiescent for its realization.
somnath ji,
I am sorry if my wording lacked clarity. I guess I sacrificed clarity in favor of a good punch line.
somnath wrote:As I said, even in totalitarian states it doesn't work - look at Xinjiang, look at Tibet..And China isnt even facing a full blown insurgency supported by a militarily capable nuke armed neighbor..
RajeshA wrote:If you noted, I never said, India should push other Indians into Kashmir to overwhelm the local populace. I want the 'kin' of the Kashmiris, the Pakistanis, to push other Indics into Kashmir to 'inadvertently' overwhelm the local populace.
The bold-marked simply means, that I fully expect, that the Pakistani Islamists would increase their drive of persecution of Hindu minorities in Pakistan in the coming years. That is an intrinsic tool used among Islamists to show/prove their Islamist credentials. What is needed is a concerted effort to highlight this persecution in the media. If there is a parallel concerted effort to mobilize the Pakistani Hindu and Sikhs to alleviate this persecution through flight/migration, then basically the fundamental dialectic of exodus has been laid, which says that

Pakistani Muslims through their persecution of Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs forced the latter to leave their homes and flee to India.

The blame of this 'forced' migration of Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs would lay at the doorstep of the Pakistani Muslims, and not India. As such the Kashmiri Muslims would blame the Pakistani Muslims, i.e. blame Pakistan, for the 'inadvertent' overwhelming of Kashmiri Muslims by the Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs as the Pakistani Muslims provided the motivation for this immigration in the first place.

In your examples of China wrt to Tibet and Xinjiang, it is clear as daylight that the Chinese State has encouraged the migration of Han Chinese into these places. The blame is on PRC.

That is the difference.
somnath wrote:So who do you think should be the initiator and manager of this project?
A highly motivated Indian group of wealthy, powerful and influential men, which has a strong ideological and nationalist agenda, and can see both the strategic imperative of a demographic change, and the moral imperative of bringing the Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs under the protection of Mother India.

The group should be willing to make sufficient resources available, influence key players in the Indian establishment, and subvert a small section of the Pakistani establishment. They should work discreetly, and plan and manage the whole process with clockwork precision. They should be able to gather feedback on progress on a daily basis, through co-option of Pakistani Hindu community leaders and hired/trained groups responsible for providing security to the migration.
somnath wrote:The Bangladeshi immigration problem, serious as it is, is a result of economic reasons primarily - precisely the same reasons why hispanics immigrate to the US, Indias/Pakis/B'deshis to UK/US/Europe etc...Obviously there is no "natural economic pull" for anyone in Pakistan to immigrate to Kashmir.

In case you want to discuss b'deshi immigration, lets discuss that - but OT here, isnt it?
The reasons for Bangladeshi 'demographic invasion' are irrelevant. The reasons for Hispanic 'demographic invasion' are irrelevant. The only thing relevant in these two examples is that they took place. If they took place, then it proves that 'large cross-border migrations' in liberal democracies is possible. Since these migrations changed the demographic composition of the local populace substantially, I would call them 'demographic invasions'.

You had contested that 'demographic invasions' in liberal democracies are not possible, and I gave two examples.

The question pertained only to the feasibility aspect of such a 'demographic invasion' in a liberal democracy, and not to motivation aspect for such.
somnath wrote:then none of the "strategic reasons" you mention are going to be tackled by opening another problem..Its a bit like Israel - its problems would have been far lesser, and its security far more compact if they didn't have all these settlements between Palestinian areas...they realize it now, but cant do anything about it..
The analogy of Israel's problem with settlements in the Palestinian territories is not an appropriate one.

The international effort is all about a two state solution, a separation of Israeli populace from Palestinian populace. Both, Israel and Palestine, have also agreed to such a solution in principle. This separation is proving problematic on the ground.

In the Kashmir context, the challenge is one of integration, the integration of Kashmir Muslims with the suggested Pakistani Hindu & Sikh immigrant population. The challenge is more akin to ensuring peace and harmony between Hindu and Muslim communities living side by side in other parts of India. Since the Kashmiri Muslims would be initially pissed off at having to make space for the newly arrived immigrants, there is going to be some social and political upheaval. In the long term, both communities would arrive at some equilibrium.
somnath wrote:We dont need to lessen the "grip of Kashmir Muslim majority over the area" - we control the area well enough...Many in BRF would concur..well, I would think that a lot more of the RSS wallahs would - and I have zero respect for the views of that uneducated crowd..
Our control of Kashmir area is ensured through a high energy state. There are more Indian troops deployed in J&K then anywhere else in India. These troop deployments cost money. Too many troops over a long term makes the local populace agitated.

Over the long term we need to bring the situation into a low-energy state. We need a J&K that is just as much Indian and at peace as any other state in India. We need a J&K that does not suck the energy of Indian Democracy but contributes to it. That is why we need a Final Solution to the Problem.

You talk of managing the problem. I talk of resolving the problem.

As far as 'RSS wallahs' go, I can only suggest that you put aside your emotional and 'intellectual' contempt for them and not to let their potential support for a cause blind your judgment about the pros and cons of an issue, about the soundness and strategic imperative of a plan of action relevant to India in general.
somnath wrote:Our bigger challenge is China, and our grand vision of Asian dominance cannot be achieved if we are lost in tactical wranglings over Kashmir..Kashmir is a CI problem that needs to be "managed", we have (after many years) the essential things in place - its a question of fine-tuning them and executing..
The bigger challenge of China and the grand vision of Asian dominance cannot be realized until India keeps on depleting its political and military energy internally in India itself; until a Chinese proxy, Pakistan, keeps the wound, the dispute on Kashmir open.

You may see Kashmir as merely an place for tactical wranglings, but in Indian History and Discourse, it has always occupied a level of attention, not less than Most Strategic.

You may consider Kashmir as a Counter-Insurgency problem, that can be "managed", but Pakistanis are the ones who "manage" the Insurgency, and they in cooperation with the Chinese, are very well in a position to escalate the problem. Right now, it is true, that they are in Western spotlight, and challenged with their own internal insurgency, but it does not diminish their potential to create trouble in Kashmir, as and when they get a breather and/or more financial and military support from the Chinese for this purpose.

The Chinese have been able to restrain Indian military capacity by nailing our troops in Kashmir. And you want to challenge those very Chinese, without considering that they too are able to challenge India internally.

You are looking at a brief phase in Kashmir when it is mostly quiet, and you start jumping in joy and consider the "problem" solved. "Let's move on to bigger things.", but sooner or later your Chinese friends are going to send a message through their Paki friends - "not so fast".

You don't want to challenge an adversary when the adversary has a remote-controlled bomb in your underwear.

My suggestion deals with checkmating and destroying Chinese and Pakistani capacity to cause trouble in our weak-spot for good, for ever.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

RajeshA,

So heres what you are saying..We highlight Paki atrocities over hindus in Pakistan..That will "encourage" the latter to migrate to India, and specifically to KAshmir..An influx of hindus into Kashmir will change Kashmir's demographic status and hence the problem will be solved - voila! And this will all be financed by a group of wealthy private indivduals...

As a Clancy-esque novel, interesting thought process. As pragmatic strategy, at best fantastic (read fanciful)!!

To start with, there is no indication that Paki hindus are begging anyone to come back to India, let alone to Kashmir..second, such migration does not happen in one shot, they take place over time, decades...What happens to their security, their livelihood in the meanwhile? What happens to increased agitation levels (we saw what happened over the Amarnath yatra) within Kashmir as a result? Convert Kashmir into a Beirut, or Ramallah, for decades? And still hope that the international community wont force its way in and have a say?

Not to say that I cant think of who these "wealthy individuals" are who would fund such a scheme...
You had contested that 'demographic invasions' in liberal democracies are not possible, and I gave two examples.
It is the opposite example - the liberal democracies were being invaded, they were not invading (if you term it invasion)...and it wasnt a deliberate sponsored effort of the sort you are espousing..And wasnt in the type of security and political environment we see in Kashmir..

One point I agree with you on is the deployment of Army for CI within Kashmir...The Army should be deployed on the borders, not to do CI - that is a police job...My suggestion for Kashmir (I said somehwer before):

1. Replace CRP/Army with the local police - bolster local police capacity massively
2. Ring fence the border to switch off external help
3. smart political management - marginlaise the extreme elements (like hurriyat), give prominence to the moderates
4. Start the engagement of Kashmiris with the Indian dream (IIT/IIM etc)..
5. Get the linkages up ASAP - rail, the Leh Manali road et al....


We are doing ok in the first three (not so much in the first), the last two need to be kicked off in ernest..

The moment we replace the Army with the police for CI, a lot more troops can be deployed along China (the RR itself is about 80k strong)..In the long run, the only viable strategy is to fight a proper CI (and Army cannot do that, you need the civilian police - numerous examples have proven that) and integrate the area with India much better...

about RSS, well gven their lack of understanding of anything after the Mahabharat, and maybe not even that, I doubt whether they are even able "support" anything that is rational..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by rkirankr »

Somnath said
about RSS, well gven their lack of understanding of anything after the Mahabharat, and maybe not even that, I doubt whether they are even able "support" anything that is rational..
As you are fond of saying it is just a POV and POVs may not necessarily be correct
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by enqyoob »

Gee, somnath, r u SURE u r not the somnath of "Laughter of Democracy" fame? Circa 1999/2000 when there was an election in J&K?
You keep repeating this - but whats laughter of democracy?
Now I guess I have to say it: In 1999 (right after the Kargil war)? there was an election in J&K. The terrorists tried their worst to disrupt it. Pakistani firing along the LOC was so bad, that people going to the polling booths had to dodge and weave and keep their heads low.

The terrorists laid coffins near every polling booth to remind the population of what would happen to them if they voted. They put leaflets out asking ppl what would happen at night when they came by to check fingers to see if the voting mark was there - could the security forces protect every house in every village every night?

Indian security responded innovatively. They put out the story that without a voting mark, it would be difficult to renew ration cards etc. This was to give the citizens a good excuse for voting, and ask the terrorists if they would provide ration cards. Sure, it was a "balance of fear" exercise, but it was mostly to give the people the courage to reject the terrorists.

No one told the voters WHICH WAY to vote - they could have written "Pakistan Zindabad" on the ballot for all that the security forces cared. They just wanted the citizens to have an alibi to be able to come and vote.

They DID come and vote. The Pakis lost. The terrorists lost. Democracy won, India won.

The "somnath" of that time (no relation implied to "somnath" of today), did what he did best: :(( :(( :((

Started a loud thread titled:
SLAUGHTER OF DEMOCRACY!!
I used to be so unkind in those days, unlike my kind and gentle self of today - I changed the proposition to
LAUGHTER OF DEMOCRACY because that's what happened. "Somnath" sort of disappeared in a huff shortly thereafter, because the janata did exactly what democracies do at terrorists: :rotfl: :rotfl:

As Mallory told the Nazi Agent on the train in "Force Ten From Navarone":
I don't THINK. I KNOW.
:mrgreen:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RajeshA »

somnath wrote:RajeshA,

So here is what you are saying..We highlight Paki atrocities over Hindus in Pakistan..That will "encourage" the latter to migrate to India, and specifically to Kashmir..An influx of Hindus into Kashmir will change Kashmir's demographic status and hence the problem will be solved - voila! And this will all be financed by a group of wealthy private individuals...
The encouragement to migrate to India, will come from their current abysmal state of living and through their community leaders. The community leaders would get their encouragement from the option to change their destiny, ably conveyed by the Project Leaders through intermediaries.

Highlighting the atrocities serve only to form international opinion, invoke sympathy for the community in India, and increase the level of human-rights groups attention on the issue, thereby putting the Pakistan Government on the back foot, and decreasing the level of violence against the community during their migration to India.

The 'exodus', 'training', 'lobbying', 'media management' can be financed by 'private individuals', i.e. Project Leaders, but once the refugees enter India, the Indian Government can make the finances available to settle them.

If we leave the fun-poking aside, you're mostly right. That more or less summarizes it.
somnath wrote:As a Clancy-esque novel, interesting thought process. As pragmatic strategy, at best fantastic (read fanciful)!!
Yes, I guess the whole History of Human Civilization and all the challenges confronted by humans was written by Clancy-esque writers, because we know the truth, and that is, that from the time Man descended from the Trees, he went straight to the living room, sat on his couch, put on the TV, and never did anything challenging.
somnath wrote:To start with, there is no indication that Paki Hindus are begging anyone to come back to India, let alone to Kashmir..
I guess Times of India, Indian Express, Hindustan Times, CNN-IBN, NDTV haven't found it necessary to run any reports on the plight of Pakistani Hindus. And if they haven't done any reports on something, then it must not exist.
somnath wrote:second, such migration does not happen in one shot, they take place over time, decades...
At 10,000 a day, it can be 'managed' in 10 months time. If one works on the efficiency, even faster.
somnath wrote:What happens to their security, their livelihood in the meanwhile?
I mentioned something about a 'wealthy Indian group' somewhere. I also mentioned, that if a Madrassa can be so efficient, with its Abdul in, Jihadi out Training Model, then it is also possible to train some of the Pakistani Hindus to provide security for the migrating groups.

That is also the reason, I mentioned that the plight of these Pakistani Hindus would have to be brought to world attention - in order to put the Jihadi hordes and Paki establishment on the defensive and less enthusiastic to do indulge in pogroms.
somnath wrote:What happens to increased agitation levels (we saw what happened over the Amarnath yatra) within Kashmir as a result?
We will then see, how far your confidence in our CI and crowd management capability is justified.
somnath wrote:Convert Kashmir into a Beirut, or Ramallah, for decades? And still hope that the international community won't force its way in and have a say?
First and foremost the attention should remain on the plight of the refugees. The international community is welcome to help or take in some of these refugees :twisted: .

No need to draw associations with Beirut or Ramallah. Of course Kashmir would be for a while in heightened agitation. But the truth is no pain, no gain, medicine is bitter.
somnath wrote:Not to say that I cant think of who these "wealthy individuals" are who would fund such a scheme...
Yes, you are right. "Wealthy individuals and Bhartiye to the core" is a rare species these days perhaps, but not impossible to find, just like it is not impossible to find "venture capital".
somnath wrote:
You had contested that 'demographic invasions' in liberal democracies are not possible, and I gave two examples.
It is the opposite example - the liberal democracies were being invaded, they were not invading (if you term it invasion)
Which liberal democracy is invading in this case? India?
- Are the immigrants moving from rest of India into Kashmir in a deliberate way? NO.
- Is Indian Government being asked to sign off on and oversee a migration into the territory of a population, hostile to the idea, through the constitutional democratic process and official channels? NO.

In this case too, you can say that India, a liberal democracy, is being invaded by an external demographic group, "Pakistani Hindus & Sikhs", albeit a "demographic invasion" that is in India's interest.
somnath wrote:...and it wasn't a deliberate sponsored effort of the sort you are espousing..
A deliberate sponsored effort only makes a process more efficient and increases its chances of success.
somnath wrote:And wasn't in the type of security and political environment we see in Kashmir..
I thought you said, it was being "managed" well.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

RajeshA,

the last time a "forced migration" was attempted was in 1971, during the B'desh crisis..Again India was "prepared", given that our boys were all over B'desh with the Mukti Bahini...still we were pretty much overwhelmed...And even in a "peaceful" state like West Bengal, it created huge social problems, despite the fact that most people expected these refugees to go back...

Nations dont formulate grand strategies on fantasies - scientists have that luxury, artistes do, not nation states..Grand strategy have to be based on hard facts - a hard nosed SWOT analysis....A misundestanding over land allocation to a religious trust creates immense troubles in J&K, a wrong analysis, surely prt of a psywar, on a murder causes problems, something in line with wht you suggest will make Kashmir a few times more intractable than Beirut or Ramallah...

The chinese experience in Xinjiang is moot, the continuing antagonism in Ukraine between Russians and Ukrainians is moot..And the situations are far more "benign" in those places..

Surely the destiny of India cannot be mortgaged for a few decades for a "final solution" of fanciful proportions in Kashmir..

Narayanan, well dont remember about any "democracy" related posts, but most analysts do not crdit the 1999 elections with the same degree of credibility as the elections thereafter..For heaven's sake, even the National Conference was cajoled into participating then!!!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by enqyoob »

but most analysts do not
thanks, but I reason that if I only had to live by what "most analysts" feel, Allah would not have given me a brain, just an **** would do fine. The point is that in 1999, right after a devastating war, and with continuing terrorism, the Indian state of Jammu-Kashmir held free elections where every registered voter could vote. Any "analyst" who cannot "credit" that is, well, aptly named.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

somnath:

Stop living in a fools's paradise. Kashmiri Muslims can fully avail the opportunities (#4, 5). But they are fascists to the core. And only a gun and carrot will work, not just carrots.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Dipanker »

somnath wrote: something in line with wht you suggest will make Kashmir a few times more intractable than Beirut or Ramallah...
Can only happen if Terrorists-e-Piglets cross the LOC in more number, but India army is taking care of them.
The chinese experience in Xinjiang is moot, the continuing antagonism in Ukraine between Russians and Ukrainians is moot..And the situations are far more "benign" in those places..
The way Chinese treat dissidents in their country, if India did the the same than "kashmir problem" will also be moot. For example all the seperatist leaders will be dead and Indians from plains will be majority in Kashmir.

Surely the destiny of India cannot be mortgaged for a few decades for a "final solution" of fanciful proportions in Kashmir..
What gives you the notion that destiny of India is mortaged? This is the kind of nonsense peddled by Pakis and the WKK.
Narayanan, well dont remember about any "democracy" related posts, but most analysts do not crdit the 1999 elections with the same degree of credibility as the elections thereafter..For heaven's sake, even the National Conference was cajoled into participating then!!!
There was no election in 1999. Both 2002 and 2008 elections have been considered free and fair.

You are mixing the 1996 election with the 1999 war.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

My hunch is that they are heading towards a Irish type "solution". The Hubby Clinton is in the background, so the wifey Clinton should remind us of the Good Friday Agreement model. I think there must alreay exist a similar plan. Here is the full quote from another thread if you want to look.
There is a curious but dangerous for India, theory, ‘Mutually hurting stalemate’ (MHS), proposed by William Zartman. When and why conflicting parties are amenable to resolve conflict is a basic assumption underlying the “Ripeness theory”, advocated by Zartman. Zartman contends that “Parties resolve their conflict only when they are ready to do so — when alternative, usually unilateral means of achieving a satisfactory result are blocked and the parties feel that they are in an uncomfortable and costly predicament. At that ripe moment, they grab on to proposals that usually have been in the air for a long time and that only now appear attractive.”

The concept of a ‘ripe moment’ centres on the parties' perception of a ‘mutually hurting stalemate’ (MHS), optimally associated with an impending, past or recently avoided catastrophe. Zartman has formulated six propositions delineating important elements and components of MHS model. They are:

Proposition 1. Ripeness is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the initiation of negotiations, bilateral or mediated.

Proposition 2. (Definitional): If the (two) parties to a conflict (a) perceive themselves to be in a hurting stalemate and (b) perceive the possibility of a negotiated solution (a way out), the conflict is ripe for resolution (i.e., for negotiations toward resolution to begin).

Proposition 3. An MHS contains objective and subjective elements, of which only the latter are necessary and sufficient to its existence.

Proposition 4. If the parties’ subjective expressions of pain, impasse, and inability to bear the costs of further escalation, related to objective evidence of stalemate, data on numbers and nature of casualties and material costs, and/or other such indicators of an MHS can be found, along with expressions of a sense of a way out, ripeness exists.

Proposition 5. (a) Once ripeness has been established, specific tactics by mediators can help seize the ripe moment and turn it into negotiations; (b) If only objective elements of ripeness exist, specific tactics by mediators can bring the conflicting parties to feel/understand the pain of their mutual stalemate and turn to negotiations.

Proposition 6. The perception of a mutually enticing opportunity is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for the continuation of negotiations to the successful conclusion of a conflict.

MHS needs to address/contain resistant reaction, whether stemming from perseverance, agent escalation, true belief, or ideological cultures and back it up with Mutually Enticing Opportunities (MEOs). The negotiations pushed by MHS are likely to be unstable unless they are supported by the prospects for a more attractive future to pull the parties out of the conflict. This could be engineered by a “formula for settlement and prospects of reconciliation that negotiating (may) design during negotiations.”


The solution for the Irish "problem" was proposed along this way. There are intellectuals on both sides of the Atlantic as well as in India, like Sumantra Bose, who could be the fronts for broaching such ideas about Kashmir.

Irish model : Democratic Institutions in N Ireland

A 108-member Assembly elected by proportional representation and a 14-member executive body in Northern Ireland in which both Catholic and Protestant political representatives sit together in government. This is only the second time such power-sharing has occurred since 1920 (the first was the short-lived Sunningdale Agreement of 1973-74).

The Assembly is capable of exercising executive and legislative authority, in the areas of finance, education, environment, health, social services, economic development and agriculture and is subject to safeguards to protect the rights and interests of both communities. The Agreement also established a consultative Civic Forum to support the work of the Assembly. The power-sharing executive body of ten ministers drawn from four political parties plus the First and Deputy First Ministers, is the effective government.

Following a referendum, the Northern Ireland Assembly was constituted under the Northern Ireland (Elections) Act 1998. On 25 June 1998, 108 members were elected to the new Assembly. None of the UUP candidates who opposed the Good Friday Agreement was elected. Moreover, the DUP and other anti-agreement parties failed to secure the 30 seats necessary to impede the work of the Assembly. However, the Northern Ireland government was not constituted until a year later, and brought to a standstill over the issue of IRA decommissioning.

Kashmir model: Institutionalising Intra-Kashmiri dialogue/Devising new structures in reconstituted Kashmir

Institutionalisation of intra-Kashmiri dialogue within IHK and AJK and between the Indian and Pakistani zones of Kashmir. Drawing up new structures and arrangements that would give way to the existing political, administrative and constitutional structures as a result of permanent solution of Kashmir.

I would guess that the UK would construct demographic homogeneity within POK, completely suppressing the Shia sectarian and other ethnic opposition to greater control by GOTSP, and highlight demographic fractures within Indian side of Kashmir.

Irish model: North-South Ministerial Council

The Belfast Agreement established a North-South Ministerial Council that deals with the totality of relationships within the island of Ireland. The Council was established to bring together those with executive responsibilities in Northern Ireland and the Irish Government, to develop consultation, co-operation and action within the island of Ireland. The Council meets in plenary format twice a year, in specific sectoral formats on a regular basis, and in an appropriate format to consider institutional or cross-sectoral matters and to resolve disagreement. All Council decisions to be by agreement between the two sides. Areas for North-South co-operation include agriculture, education, transport, environment, waterways, social security/social welfare, tourism, inland fisheries and health.

Kashmir model: Cross-border cooperation/Softening boundaries & Sovereignty in Kashmir

This means softening of boundaries across the reconstituted zones of Kashmir and gradually developing economic cooperation on transport, tourism, trade and commerce, environment, agriculture, cultural cooperation and management of water resources. This require a cross-border structure and as per the Irish model (North–South Ministerial Council) a Srinagar-Muzaffarabad Ministerial Council for Cooperation. The sop that can be held for GOI, or more correctly a sop for the Indian commons by the GOI and NC, the concoction that in return for gradual cooperation between the two parts of Kashmir giving Indian Kashmir an indirect, limited say in the affairs of POK.

Irish model: British-Irish Council/ British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference

The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference (BIIC) was to set up under a new British-Irish Agreement dealing with their totality of relationships and incorporates both the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Council and the Intergovernmental Conference established under the 1985 Agreement. The BIIC brings together the two governments “to promote bilateral co-operation at all levels on all matters of mutual interest’. The Conference was to meet as required at summit level (Prime Minister and Taoiseach). Otherwise, governments were to be represented by appropriate ministers. Advisers, including police and security advisers, attend as relevant. All decisions were to be arrived at by agreement between both governments. The BIIC recognises “Irish Government's special interest in Northern Ireland” on non-devolved matters on which it may forward views and proposals. The co-operation within the framework of the Conference includes facilitation of co-operation in security matters. The Conference also deals with the areas of rights, justice, prisons and policing in Northern Ireland (unless and until responsibility is devolved to a Northern Ireland administration).

Kashmir model: India-Pakistan Kashmir Council (IPKC) /India-Pakistan Intergovernmental Conference


Two mutually reinforcing structures could be identified on the pattern of BIC and BIIC. These could be India-Pakistan Kashmir Council (IPKC) and India-Pakistan Intergovernmental Conference (IPKIC). The India-Pakistan Kashmir Council (IPKC) could be set up to promote harmonious and mutually beneficial development of totality of relationships between India-Pakistan and the people of Kashmir. Membership may comprise representatives of the governments of India, Pakistan and that of reconstituted Kashmir. The Council will provide a platform to discuss, consult and reach agreement on cooperation on matters of mutual interest, i.e. transport links, agriculture, trade, environment, health, education, and cultural issues and approaches to SAARC issues. It may take decision on common policies and common actions. The council may operate by consensus.

The India-Pakistan Intergovernmental Conference (IPKIC) would bring together the Indian and Pakistani governments to promote bilateral cooperation at all levels on all matters of mutual interest. All decisions will be by agreement between both governments. IPKIC would recognise Pakistan’s special interest in Kashmir (as British government did in the case of the Irish Republic (in relation to Northern Ireland) on issues of mutual concern arising in relation to Kashmir. These would include non-devolved matters such as cooperation in security matters, policing and the areas of human rights and justice. Of particular importance would be the demilitarisation of the Kashmir Valley and joint guarantees by India and Pakistan to a quasi-sovereign status of the reconstituted Kashmir Valley. In this context, the IPKIC will intensify cooperation between the two governments on the all-Kashmir or cross-border aspects of matters of mutual interest. Relevant executive members of the reconstituted Kashmir governments will be involved in the meetings of the IPKIC, and in the reviews on non-devolved matters.


(1) A.G. Noorani, “Irish lessons for Kashmir”, Frontline, Chennai, volume 20, no. 7, March 29-April 11, 2003.
(2) Sumantra Bose, “Kashmir: sources of conflict, Dimensions of Peace”, Survival, vol. 41. no. 3. Autumn 1999;
(3) Balraj Puri, “An irrelevant model”, Frontline, 7 June 2003. Radha Kumar, “Learning from others”, <http://www.india-seminar.com/2000.496/ 496%20radh%20kumar.htm>.
(4) Shaikh Tajammal-ul-Islam, “Irish model for Kashmir”, The News, Islamabad/Rawalpindi, 19 March 2003.
(5) “Conflict resolution in the changing world”, in International Conflict Resolution After the Cold War, National Academy of Sciences. National Academies Press http://www.nap.edu, 2000, p.1.
(6) John Burton, 'Conflict Resolution as a Political System' in Vamik Volkan, et al (eds), The Psychodynamics of International Relationships: Volume II: Unofficial Diplomacy at Work. Lexington, MA, Lexington Books, 1991
(7) Sundeep Waselkar, A Handbook for Conflict Resolution in South Asia, Konark Publishers Pvt, Ltd. p.4.
(8) John Burton, 'Conflict Resolution in the changing world”, in International Conflict Resolution After the Cold War.
(9) William Zartman. “Ripeness: The Hurting Stalemate and Beyond”, in International Conflict Resolution After the Cold War, op.cit., pp.228-243.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by suryag »

WE are doing reasonably well in managing peace in J&K. If for a year or two we pull through without shopian type incidents then we should be in a better position. Given these, why should we talk to paks ? I ahve always had this question why should we pander to the desires of the pakis, and talk to them ?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by negi »

WE are doing reasonably well in managing peace in J&K well that is if you are referring to the drop in cross border infiltration and extremist activities; however it is a matter of time the likes of JKLF and Hurriyat will adapt to the new environment and change tactics.Infact the fact that closet paki parties like PDP command a decent public support is a alarming development.

I have always maintained that terrorist attacks do not form or influence public opinion in J&K as much as the separatists ,WKK and the A roy type journos . It is the latter who have gained a major foothold in the valley and in new age of NDTV,CNN-IBN et al things will only become too tricky for the GOI .
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by archan »

somnath, this is your last warning.
If you use the phrase "RSS Wallah" in a derogatory manner again, you will be banned from this forum. What is derogatory and what is not, is based on the moderator's discretion. So if I were you and I wanted to keep participating in discussions on BRF, I would avoid using that phrase altogether.
Second, if you call any BRF member an "RSS wallah" or "knickerwallah" or something to that effect. You will be banned.
Your views about RSS are now well known and you have every right to your opinions. However, RSS is not a terrorist organization which you accuse it of by saying
Macho philosophies of "lets burn them down" are good for RSS
You are free to disagree or dislike them but your repeated derogatory references to them or their members are taking away from the focus of the threads in which you use them. Any repetition from here on will not be tolerated. I request the members to report any such incidence in the future.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

B-ji,

Could you please throw some light on the Irish type "solution" and what it implies to India's long term intersts and vision from your perspective?

My interest is to analyse its implications and what-if scenarios, so we can optimize any such solution (if forced upon) to Indian conditions.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Jaspreet »

Instead of using words that are names, for example, RSS, can we use generic terms, such as supremacist organizations? This way, Somnath can make a point and those who believe that RSS is a supremacist organization will know whom to think of and those who don't, will think of some other organization.

Middle ground?
svinayak
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

narayanan wrote:
but most analysts do not
thanks, but I reason that if I only had to live by what "most analysts" feel, Allah would not have given me a brain, just an **** would do fine. The point is that in 1999, right after a devastating war, and with continuing terrorism, the Indian state of Jammu-Kashmir held free elections where every registered voter could vote. Any "analyst" who cannot "credit" that is, well, aptly named.
Most analysts do not form their opinion on hard facts either. It is just their opinion and nothing more. State cannot make a judgement based on some analysts. It has to take into account hard facts on the ground.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by archan »

Jaspreet wrote:Instead of using words that are names, for example, RSS, can we use generic terms, such as supremacist organizations? This way, Somnath can make a point and those who believe that RSS is a supremacist organization will know whom to think of and those who don't, will think of some other organization.

Middle ground?
Sure.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Jaspreet wrote:Instead of using words that are names, for example, RSS, can we use generic terms, such as supremacist organizations? This way, Somnath can make a point and those who believe that RSS is a supremacist organization will know whom to think of and those who don't, will think of some other organization.

Middle ground?

I dont think so. As Shakespeare said "a rose by any other names smells the same!" it applies to poo too.

Its not middle ground but will cause more f/blame wars.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by archan »

:) That's why I told them "sure". Go ahead, and if it remains civil, all is fine and dandy. If this issue creates another flame war, then to quote the comedian Russell Peters' dad, "someone's gonna get a hurt real bad".
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

First we call J&K issue with right name i.e it is a Sunni Kahsmiri Muslim Problem and then many solutions will stem from this fact.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

B-ji.

Thanks for the info. I have few questions/comments.

1. Is India really in a MHS state vis-à-vis J&K? Per my understanding all of India’s problems in J&K are its own doing. Be it 1948 (incomplete) war, UN Plebiscite conundrum, A370, or even the terrorism issue. A decisive GOI can solve all these problems in a 5-year timeframe on our side of J&K.

2. Now on to the POK/NA side of the issue. As of now, Pakistan is not in any kind of MHS situation either. And Indian Leadership being “democratic + liberal + secular + what-not” is in no mood to ripen POK/NA enough so Pakistan will be forced to come to the negotiation table. However there are a couple of ways a decisive GOI can create the right conditions for the ripening process. For example: it can use the proper interpretation of IWT or proactively focus on on the cross-border terrorism emanating from POK/NA (only). This can be achieved by tactically de-linking the terror attacks in rest of India from JK terrorism.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

RamaYji,
MHS need not be felt by the GOI, but it could be built up and created as a media hype. This media frenzy itself could be cited by the GOI and the other foreign participants as MHS been reached on the Indian side. Reverse side the "opinion-makers" on the public side could convince itself on the MHS too.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RajeshA »

somnath wrote:RajeshA,

the last time a "forced migration" was attempted was in 1971, during the B'desh crisis..Again India was "prepared", given that our boys were all over B'desh with the Mukti Bahini...still we were pretty much overwhelmed...And even in a "peaceful" state like West Bengal, it created huge social problems, despite the fact that most people expected these refugees to go back...

Nations dont formulate grand strategies on fantasies - scientists have that luxury, artistes do, not nation states..Grand strategy have to be based on hard facts - a hard nosed SWOT analysis....A misunderstanding over land allocation to a religious trust creates immense troubles in J&K, a wrong analysis, surely part of a psywar, on a murder causes problems, something in line with what you suggest will make Kashmir a few times more intractable than Beirut or Ramallah...

The Chinese experience in Xinjiang is moot, the continuing antagonism in Ukraine between Russians and Ukrainians is moot..And the situations are far more "benign" in those places..

Surely the destiny of India cannot be mortgaged for a few decades for a "final solution" of fanciful proportions in Kashmir..
somnath ji,

the quality of your argumentation against my proposal has degenerated in the last post.

It is now down to -
- preaching me about how nations make their decisions,
- whining how a few Kashmiri Muslims are going to get indigestion for a few years and let off wind and Indians ought to cower again and again,
- crying out loud that everything is too impossible, too fantastic, too fanciful.

These arguments have no substance. You are just suffering from lack of confidence and vision, trying to justify why Indians need not have balls.

The point is GoI has found a way to tie itself in so many knots, knots like LoC, LAC, UNSC Resolution 47, Sekoolarism, Muslim Law, Article 370, "War is not an option", "Tibet is integral part of China", Unilateral Moratorium on Nuclear Testing, Sharm-el-Sheikh Joint Statements, yada, yada. All these knots are used by GoI to justify its inaction in front of the Indian people, inaction to follow India's national interests, knots behind which politicians can hide their cowardice. So many knots have been tied, that no path is left free, to break out of this containment of India.

What I suggested, is a way to break through these knots, a jailbreak. You are surprised, that after all these knots, there could still be a way out of this jail so carefully prepared. That is why you are clutching at straws for your arguments.

Sooner or later, India will break out of Jail.

I am not making a pitch for a business plan in front of some venture capitalists. I am just offering a general plan for constructive critique.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

"supremacist" - do we have any organization that is "subordinatist" or "inferiorist"? Mods, please allow all sorts of derogatory appellations on those somehow remotely or approximately connected with the word "Hindu". Derogation without justification is one surefire way to make people curious to know about the intended victim. People should be encouraged to make their own investigations and researches about organizations before accpeting or rejecting them. Maybe that will make them reject those organizations even more soundly. Or....:mrgreen:
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