J & K news and discussion

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2009 04:21

Somnathji,
apologies to engage in distracting you further : you provide interesting insights into exactly the problems within ourselves that has led to this mess.

the last time a "forced migration" was attempted was in 1971, during the B'desh crisis..Again India was "prepared", given that our boys were all over B'desh with the Mukti Bahini...still we were pretty much overwhelmed...And even in a "peaceful" state like West Bengal, it created huge social problems, despite the fact that most people expected these refugees to go back...

For the moment let us assume that it disturbed the "peace" of states like WB in 71, and created "huge" social problems in WB. So what is your objection if it creates "huge" social problems in a compared to WB, minuscule population in the Valley part of J&K? WB did not remain disturbed for long and socially problematic for long, did it? Why should we care much if the Kashmiri Muslims have some disturbances for a while in the Valley because they have been responsible for creating a lot of disturbances outside the state in India and not been able to control their own homegrown terrorists without whose help foreign infiltrators would have been dead-meat?

By the way, an equal social disaster happened after the 47 Partition on the WB border. How many indidents of violence targeting the "refugees" can you report in both periods for the refugees disappointing the "going back" expectations? The tragedy occured away from WB, in the Dandakaranya area, where local and external business interests were involved in exploiting the rehabilitants. Those who travelled to Aandamans did and are doing just fine. There is a wonderful Malayali film by a famous film-maker that covers exactly such a fictionalized history of migration.

It is risky making such comparative analysis. Please be careful next time!

Nations dont formulate grand strategies on fantasies - scientists have that luxury, artistes do, not nation states..Grand strategy have to be based on hard facts - a hard nosed SWOT analysis....A misunderstanding over land allocation to a religious trust creates immense troubles in J&K, a wrong analysis, surely part of a psywar, on a murder causes problems, something in line with what you suggest will make Kashmir a few times more intractable than Beirut or Ramallah...

Scientists formulate "grand strategies" based on fantasies? Artist"e"s? Well yes scientists do - and that is how we learnt to dream of landing on the moon or on planets, and what a surprise, we ultimately did.

As for SWOT, I am involved in a dozen of them as part of academic admin duties every year. Just between you and me, they are all b***S***. After doing all those exercises, we simply go on working out our "grand strategies", and that is how we both individually and organizationally flourish. Breaking our own targets, limitations imposed by ourselves, we enrich both individually and collectively university wide and beyond.

Your views crucially highlight the fundamental weakness in our thought process - the lack of will. The lack of understanding even, of the role of individual and collective will at crucial junctures in a nations history. By looking up to small men we have become smaller ourselves. Each state is unique, each rashtra is unique - there is a limit to comparisons - there is no point in not doing what is necessary, in particular for solving the J&K problem as part of the larger TSP-problem. Any shying away from doing the necessary is a sign of weakness that we should get rid of immediately.

Surely the destiny of India cannot be mortgaged for a few decades for a "final solution" of fanciful proportions in Kashmir..

It is time we learnt to distinguish between fancy and vision. The former is the refuge of those who are fearful, and the latter is the vehicle for those who want to shape the future.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 01 Aug 2009 06:01

"supremacist" - do we have any organization that is "subordinatist" or "inferiorist"...please allow all sorts of derogatory appellations on those somehow remotely or approximately connected with the word "Hindu"

B-ji,
You're mistaken if you thought that I was directing my comment at a Hindu organization. If anything, I would direct my comment to a religion-based organization, no matter what religion that is. An outdated concept, religion has no place in modern life. god and religion are fantasies inspired by humankind's fear of the unknown after death. I have articulated these views before. Trust me, if I intended insult, it wouldn't be to a religion, but to Religion.

Edit: changed case of god to lower.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2009 06:44

Jaspreetji,
I work with and among "scientists" and "rationalists" - for most, "science" or "rationalism" is just as obstinate and blind a crutch to lean on fanatically without reason or thinking as "religion" and serves just the same purpose. True "modernism" and "scientism" is about keeping the mind open to possibilities and simply say that "this is as far as I can accept based on current levels of knowledge and understanding - in the future new findings may completely reverse my current position". This includes claims or statements within "religions" that remain unprovable or untestable at current levels of knowledge and experimentation.

However, religion per se is OT here.

However I do understand that you did not mean "Hindu" in particular - but the discussion followed in the context of the RSS, hence my comment. There is a saying that "in the mind of the atheist, God resides even more strongly than in the mind of a theist - in the form of a big no and continuous denial". The best way to try to erase a concept is to ignore it. By attacking it and denigrating it without sufficient justifications only shows our paranoia about it and how scared of the power of the concept we are.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 01 Aug 2009 06:47

It is now down to -
- preaching ..about how nations make their decisions,
- whining how a few Kashmiri Muslims are going to get indigestion for a few years and let off wind and Indians ought to cower again and again,
- crying out loud that everything is too impossible, too fantastic, too fanciful.

Q.E.D. That's what triggered

LAUGHTER OF DEMOCRACY

too.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 01 Aug 2009 06:47

However I do understand that you did not mean "Hindu" in particular

As long as you understand that I wasn't insulting your religion alone, I don't have a problem. The rest belongs to some other forum.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Aug 2009 06:54

Jaspreet wrote:[

Hi Jaspreet,
Do you doubt
Jis marne se jag dare , mere man Anand
Marne hee te payeaa puran Parmanand

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2009 07:00

Jaspreetji,

As long as you understand that I wasn't insulting your religion alone, I don't have a problem.

apologies if I misunderstood you - but your quote above seems to imply that you wanted to insult more religions than "mine" only!

(sorry! teasing onlee!)

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Aug 2009 08:24

RajeshA,

I am not "preaching" to you or anyone, though the "ji" adds a few years to my age everytime!

As an amateur student of modern history, I dont find "silver bullet", "slash and burn" solutions practical, even though they might be popular in blogs, and certain types of mindsets (read RSS)...

India is tying herself up in knots? Really? Lets look at the issue at hand - J&K..

Has India been more secure about J&K anytime before? when was the last time the UN saw any fireworks on Kashmir? Didnt Kofi annan himself declare the impotency of UN on Kashmir? Didnt US (that nasty "buyout party") come out and insist on the inviolability of LoC? Since the 1990 uprising, is the violnece at its lowest ebb? Dont the last couple of elections happen to be the most representative ones in Kashmir's history? Do we need to field our foreign minister on trips abroad anymore to canvass on KAshmir? Do sundry american and european officials hold forth on Kashmir anymore? Or do they dismiss the issue as a biletaral one and brush it aside?

The answer to all these questions would be pointer to whether India is in a far better state today than she was 20 years back on Kashmir..

It is not about "indigestion" of some Kashmiri muslims.. Its about the realisation of reality, and not forgeting the big picture..the big picture is that Kashmir or Pakistan is a sideshow in our grand strategic scheme of things..Sustaining a growth of 7-8%, building up a domestic MIC, influencing events in Asia and consolidating our position in the high tables (while keeping all the other "johnies" out) are our objectives..A final solution project, does nothing to aid any of these objectives - in fact sets back all of them by a bit..

China enters into an agreement with Jammat e Islami because it wants to keep Xinjiang trouble free...Now Xinjiang has never had a hiostory of security trouble (befroe the recent riots), the Chinese have settled Hans by the millions there, and China has a friendly Pak as neighbour...Why does it then sleep with the "enemy"? simple - it does not want a distraction for its larger goals..

Brihaspati, WB was a peaceful state with zero security issues or historical baggage - problems still occured...the point was the implications of doing the same thing in Kashmir with all its historical and security background...The only "alike" example I can think of is Israeli settleemtns in occupied territories - we all know the situation, and the military asymmetry is far higher there..Now the Israelli state has the grand objective of only maximising its occupation of the "promised land" and preserving a Jewish state...It has no great power ambitions...Even with such propitious confluence of motivation and capability, they are struggling with a venture that is many times lesser in scale than what is being proposed here..I am extremelyh "careful" in my analogies - therefore sceptical of the more fanciful of ideas..

And yes, artist"e"s (never found the taste for the visual arts

) are allowed their indulgences in fancifulness, so are scientists - the downsides are limited there..Nation states are not...Capabilities are built up over time, and power exercised in a deliberate, thought out manner - almost never is there a silver bullet solution...

We as a nation state (also as a people might I say) sometimes do not exhibit the "demonstration of will" displayed by some others...We are afer all "argumentative Indians"!! But to say we lack nataional will and we are being buffeted out is a gross underestimation of our achievements -we do it in our own style, but in matters of national importance, seldom do we give in...Kashmir to me a glaring example of that - from 1947 onwards..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Aug 2009 08:46

somnath wrote: It is not about "indigestion" of some Kashmiri muslims.. Its about the realisation of reality, and not forgeting the big picture..the big picture is that Kashmir or Pakistan is a sideshow in our grand strategic scheme of things..Sustaining a growth of 7-8%, building up a domestic MIC, influencing events in Asia and consolidating our position in the high tables (while keeping all the other "johnies" out) are our objectives..A final solution project, does nothing to aid any of these objectives - in fact sets back all of them by a bit..

How do you expect to influence events in Asia, when you cant command yourselves and play no role in your neighbor? Who will listen to you?

The respect and dominance and influence starts at home and your immediate neighborhood.

Without dominance in your neighborhood, you have zero influence in your region. These are the essentials of geo-politics.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 10:17

VikasRaina wrote:
My comment may sound OT, but it isn't. RayC, your statement could be generalized to many states of India. How much does an average(*) Punjabi know about Assamese culture? Or how much does an average Mizo know of Haryanvi culture?

You alluded to that when you said "if indeed there is a mainstream culture and ethos in India."

So if Oriyas, Biharis, Punjabis, Tamils and others can get together to form an India story, why can't Kashmiris?

-----
* I said "average", not you, the BRFite.

The answer is simple.

The Kashmiris are insular and lazy. Not my words but the words from 'Vale of Kashmir' By Lawrence.
Tamils, Oriyas etc are ready to 'explore'.
The Kashmiri psyche is not that adventurous!

RayC, by same logic, We can call Bengali's or Maharashtrians or Telgu's or other Indian communities to be <Fill in your word here> and quote some moron's book to hide behind it.
Had Kashmiri psyche not been adventurous, you would not have seen folks calling themselves descendent's of Kashmiri's in Kerala and Karanataka. IN fact I have heard Mangalorean Christians proudly calling themselves from Kashmir.

To say ,"Neither the majority of Indians understand the Kashmiris nor do the Kashmiris understand those from mainland India" is factually wrong statement. How is this statement any different from the armchair critics for whom Kashmir is some faraway distant land.
I wonder what is that Majority of Indians don't understand about Kashmir , Kashmiri's and vice versa that you came to your conclusion.

The narrative of Kashmir as much of story of India as of anyone else's.
And who is Lawrence who you are quoting here. Pick a stone and you will find some idiot westerner criticizing Indic civilization and its people.

Let us respect our country and countrymen.

It would be good if you read Prem Nath Bazaz's book, Kashmir in Crucible and have a close look at Page 23. I will not reproduce since it may offend. He also quotes extensively from Moorecroft, Lawrence and Torrent, amongst others.

Therefore, I have not read account of only the English Administrators, but also of Kashmiri scholars and worthies!

As you will be aware Pt. Prem Bazaz was born in July 1905 and was from a scholarly Bhatt family of Kashmir. He was a great Hindu activist and also wanted Hindu Muslim amity.

I would like to mention that unless one is bold to face reality, that race or community will not flourish. Of my own community, I can quote the name of Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Debendranath Thakur, Keshab Chandra Sen, Micheal Madhusudan Dutt, Harish Mukherjee, amongst many others who looked inwards and had the courage to criticise and reform the Bengali society and even the language! The narration of ills of the Bengali society stings, but it nevertheless is the truth. And one must also have the courage to face the truth!

I am reminded of the story of Lalleshwari (Lal Ded) and the child. Lal Ded happened to enter the room she took the infant in her lap, kissed him, put him on to her own teats and whispered the following into his ear :-

If thou were not ashamed of
Being born,
Why are thee
Ashamed of feeding at
Thy mother's breasts ?

The baby is stated to have responded immediately and behaved as a normal baby.

My association with Kashmir starts from 1951 and have done extensive tours in all parts of J&K and even in the remote areas, where possibly many Kashmiris have not even been.

While I do not claim that I have the intellect and perserverance of the British Administrators, nonetheless, I did possess the characteristics to know more about the people I live alongside, even if I was not one of their own. From the high ranking Obdullahs to the lowliest porters, farmers and petty shopkeepers (wanis), and even Ikhwanis like Kuka Parray, I have interacted to learn more of Kashmir and their joys and sorrows. Therefore, I daresay that I know more of Kashmir than the average hinterland Indians.

Kashmir is bountiful in its basic necessities to live and so not much effort is required and hence they are easy going. Likewise, is the case with Bengal. They too have been have been categorised by 'idiotic' British as lazy! However, they do possess the spirit of adventure as is evident by the hordes of Bengalis who descend on all parts of India every Durga Puja holiday!

Yes, Kashmir is a faraway land to many, even if you don't agree. Many have romantic ideas of Kashmir. Beyond the beauty of Kashmir, lies the real Kashmir. Few know that Kashmir.

Mangalorean Christians may say they are Kashmiris, I don't wish to contest that, but if you go through Kashmir's history, you will find it is full of invasions by outsiders. If one remember the brutality of the Chak dynasty and the Afghans, then obviously people would flee. That exodus would not be what one could term to be 'adventure' driven. In fact there is a Persian couplet that was famous in Kashmir that sums up the atmosphere of those times and the brutality unleashed on the Kashmiris by the Afghans:

Sar buridan pesh in sangin dilan gul chidan ast
(These stone hearted people thought no more of cutting heads than of plucking flowers)

In such a situation, anyone would take wings on their feet!

I am sorry if you have been offended, but that was not the intention. My intention is that we must understand Kashmir and work towards understanding the real Kashmir, rather than address merely the activities of the terrrorists including JKLF and that of the Hurriyat inspired actions and assume that this is representative of Kashmir.

If the Kashmiris and Kashmir were understood, then the issue of Kashmiri Pandit being refugees in their own land would not have happened, nor the conundrum Kashmir is in!

There was a time where Kashmiri Brahmins would drink the water brought by a Mussalman or eat the food cooked by a Mussalman boatman so says Pt Prem Nath Bazaz and today the situation is different where Kashmiris are divided on religious lines!

The issue of Kashmir has to be addressed holistically and not in fits and starts, depending upon violence being unleased there.

Unless we understand Kashmir and encourage Kashmiris to mingle with hinterland India, there will always remain those who will still call anything beyond the Banihal as 'paar' or 'India'!

Don't you think that the average Punjabi should know of the Assamese culture as an average Bengali know of the Tamil culture? If they did, would it not bring the peoples of this country closer?

However, the difference between Kashmir and other parts of India is that Kashmir is in a boiling cauldron as Pt Bazaz has said. It is burning and so that is the fire that should be doused first and then should we focus elsewhere.

Let Kashmir return to that state where one could happily recite:

Gar Firdoz Bar ruwey
Zamin ast, Hamin ast, Hamin ast.

How many Indians know of Shah Gafoor, the Sufi Saint's famous lines:

Meh zan prazlan naran chum
Ram Ram karun gau nam sandarun
Darnai dharun....Soham su

(Narayan dazzles like the moon, Repitition of the name of Rama leads to one's salvation. Meditate upon the Eternal)

OT, but necessary to clarify what I meant.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Aug 2009 10:20

ravi_ku wrote: How do you expect to influence events in Asia, when you cant command yourselves and play no role in your neighbor? Who will listen to you?

The respect and dominance and influence starts at home and your immediate neighborhood.

Without dominance in your neighborhood, you have zero influence in your region. These are the essentials of geo-politics.

We dont? Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Bangladesh - our influence over essential political processes in these countries is legendary...

About our influence in the region - Singpore bent over backwards (including giving unprecedented banking license privilages for Indian banks) for the CECA with India, Thaksin Shinawatra persevered till the cows came home for the FTA, now Asean is desperately seeking an FTA with us...And evryone starting with Singapore is looking for greater military engagements...Our influence in Afghanistan gives Pak sleepless nights...

Unfortunately influence doesnt mean sabre rattling dominance that a lot of members would like to have...In the 21st century its going to be far more nuanced..

narayanan wrote:
Q.E.D. That's what triggered
LAUGHTER OF DEMOCRACY
too.

so anyone to the left of attila the hun (or an RSS knickerwalla) is a commie or an American stooge?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Aug 2009 10:28

RayC,

You are very right...It would help generally if all parts of India were interconnected better - and the other "door ast" region has been the NE - but the integration of the Kashmiri into the Indian dream is probably the greatest imperative due tot eh sheer strategic nature of the state....

Unfortunately our infrastructure bulding efforts are so tardy - whether its the Leh Manali road or the railway link, everything is years behind schedule....Therefore the "quick win" can only be in education - get a bunch of Kashmiri boys trained to be good enough for the IIT/IIMs - build it over time, and in 10-15 years a different middle class will emerge..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Aug 2009 12:07

somnath wrote:
so anyone to the left of attila the hun (or an RSS knickerwalla) is a commie or an American stooge?

Somnath for your perusal,
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 16#p709816

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Aug 2009 12:16

somnath wrote: We dont? Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Bangladesh - our influence over essential political processes in these countries is legendary...

Except for Bhutan, none of them have a China element?

Check what US did to Cuba, for equal considerations and what power Soviets had even at the peak of their power in Canada, Mexico and other countries.

About our influence in the region - Singpore bent over backwards (including giving unprecedented banking license privilages for Indian banks) for the CECA with India,

Thaksin Shinawatra persevered till the cows came home for the FTA, now Asean is desperately seeking an FTA with us...And evryone starting with Singapore is looking for greater military engagements...Our influence in Afghanistan gives Pak sleepless nights...

Unfortunately influence doesnt mean sabre rattling dominance that a lot of members would like to have...In the 21st century its going to be far more nuanced..

You might die, I might die. There may be modern, ancient, ultra-modern times. There is only definition of domination in geo-politics. The other guy has no influence in your sphere, period.

Sabre-rattling and others are the means. Dont confuse means of dominance with dominance itself.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 12:19

Ravi,

I believe that the RSS was termed by Mani Shankar Aiyer as 'knickerbocker wallahs'.

Knicker = Knickerbockers (clothing), men's or boys' baggy knee trousers.

The RSS does wear outlandish and ill fitting baggy shorts.

Therefore, Somnath cannot be faulted on this count.

However.................

Wallah = By Allah (Arabic: Wallah, والله) is Arabic expression meaning " by God". It is considered a sin among Muslim to use this phrase and follow it up with a lie. Something like bloody a contraction of by our Lady, our Lady being Mary, the mother of God!

Somnath has indeed sinned!

Let the Mullah and the Pope decide!

I believe people call Moderators as Adminullahs and Jagan as the Pope!

Somnath,

Quit being provocative.

No discussion on this please, take it for what it is worth!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Aug 2009 12:27

RayC wrote:Ravi,

I believe that the RSS was termed by Mani Shankar Aiyer as 'knickerbocker wallahs'.

Knicker = Knickerbockers (clothing), men's or boys' baggy knee trousers

Wallah = By Allah (Arabic: Wallah, والله) is Arabic expression meaning " by God". t is considered a sin among Muslim to use this phrase and follow it up with a lie. Something like bloody a contraction of by our Lady, our Lady being Mary, the mother of God!

Somnath has indeed sinned!

Let the Mullah and the Pope decide!

RayC,
I have enough proficiency in hindi , to know what is "knicker wallah" and to whom it indicates. By the way, the wallah here in this particular usage means, one who has it.

Thus knicker wallah - one who has(wears) knickers
auto/lorry wallah - one who has (drives) auto/lorry
dabba wallah - one who has (brings) dabbas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wala

In India, the suffix -wala (or -wallah), indicating a person involved in some kind of activity; for example, Dabbawala and Auto-wallah and chai-wallah (a boy or young man who serves tea).

I didnt know whether Somnath had read that warning post from admin, (who will read all the pages?). So I posted the post so that he realises that warnings have been issued to him by mods already for that same action. That is the reason, why I didnt use the report function and tried to bring that warning to his attention.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 12:41

ravi_ku wrote:
Except for Bhutan, none of them have a China element?
Of course there is the Chinese elements, even in Bhutan, but they can't forget Big Brother living next to them.

Prachanda is howling that India did not allow him to sack the Nepal Army Chief and instead, the poor bloke lost all the glory and perks as the PM.

Sri Lanka is allowing India to rebuild North SL meekly standing around as a bystander.

Bangladesh is modelling its BRD on the lines of BSF and India is helping.

So, while we lament about India losing her clout, India actually has lost nothing!

Of course, it would be ridiculous to compare India with the US and its clout over her neighbours.

You might die, I might die. There may be modern, ancient, ultra-modern times. There is only definition of domination in geo-politics. The other guy has no influence in your sphere, period.

Sabre-rattling and others are the means. Dont confuse means of dominance with dominance itself.

Means of dominance leads to dominance. They cannot be separated.

Unless one has a military pact, there can be no one way street. There will always be space for other players since geopolitics is a game of looking after one's interest and extracting the maximum from everyone.

That is why the US complains that inspite of giving aid, there are countries which are still anti US!!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 12:53

ravi_ku wrote:RayC,
I have enough proficiency in hindi , to know what is "knicker wallah" and to whom it indicates. By the way, the wallah here in this particular usage means, one who has it.

Thus knicker wallah - one who has(wears) knickers
auto/lorry wallah - one who has (drives) auto/lorry
dabba wallah - one who has (brings) dabbas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wala
In India, the suffix -wala (or -wallah), indicating a person involved in some kind of activity; for example, Dabbawala and Auto-wallah and chai-wallah (a boy or young man who serves tea).

I didnt know whether Somnath had read that warning post from admin, (who will read all the pages?). So I posted the post so that he realises that warnings have been issued to him by mods already for that same action. That is the reason, why I didnt use the report function and tried to bring that warning to his attention.

A penny for your thoughts.

I have a proficiency in Urdu, apart from our National language.

Wallah is an Arabic word. And Urdu is a derivative of Arabic, Persian and even Hindi!

It is good of you to remind Somnath of Archan's words and also alert the Moderators, I am sure Archan is watching this thread.

Since Archan has given him the warning, it is not my right to intercede. If it has been used in a deregatory manner, I am sure Archan is competent to decide.

But as far as RSS is concerned indeed they are knickerbocker wallahs. They do wear them, don't they?

Wallah means from the English standpoint:

1. One employed in a particular occupation or activity: a kitchen wallah; rickshaw wallahs.
2. An important person in a particular field or organization: "the Ritz, a favorite haunt of Republican wallahs" (John Robinson).
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wallah

If I were you, I would demolish his arguments and not worry what the Dickens he has said in a sarcastic manner, if indeed he has.

I have not cared to check, since the forum is becoming to difficult to handle with personal egos at stake rather than substance. Take the case of the thread on EUVA or even Sharm al Sheik!

Come on, we are all mature people.

Lets get to the sum and substance of issues, rather than look smug with brownie points.

I am not meaning you, I am addressing all!!

I find that when people are bereft of ideas and debating points they veer off to the irrelevant just to show they exist!

Shiv brought out this issue in the Sharm el Shiek thread and implied that it was a merry go round and should be locked!

It is for you all to add to the substance rather than exasperate members to feel that it is all a waste of time and a mere repitition of the mundane and inane!!

Most BRF members are highly knowledgeable. Let that show!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Aug 2009 12:59

RayC wrote:Of course there is the Chinese elements, even in Bhutan, but they can't forget Big Brother living next to them.

Prachanda is howling that India did not allow him to sack the Nepal Army Chief and instead, the poor bloke lost all the glory and perks as the PM.

Sri Lanka is allowing India to rebuild North SL meekly standing around as a bystander.

Bangladesh is modelling its BRD on the lines of BSF and India is helping.

So, while we lament about India losing her clout, India actually has lost nothing!

Of course, it would be ridiculous to compare India with the US and its clout over her neighbours.

I said without dominance in neighborhood, you cannot have influence in the region(he used asia).

Yes, it is ridiculous to compare India's position with what US clout is. But that difference is what it means to be a super power!! It is that difference which allows US to influence even Russia's background areas, Ukraine, or be in Afghanistan. It allows US to be a player in Bangladesh or even Nepal.

Means of dominance leads to dominance. They cannot be separated.

Completely agree with you. However at the same time, let us not confuse between them. Dominance is the goal and there could be many paths to achieve it.

Unless one has a military pact, there can be no one way street. There will always be space for other players since geopolitics is a game of looking after one's interest and extracting the maximum from everyone.

That is why the US complains that inspite of giving aid, there are countries which are still anti US!!

Note it is in regions where US has influence not dominance!

Anyway we are going OT here. All I meant was, as long as Pakistan exists in its present form with its 3 and 1/2 friends, all countries have a big big leverage against us and thus is a interference to achieve influence all over asia.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 13:03

Ravi,

You are totally right.

I have nothing to add.

Thanks.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 01 Aug 2009 13:13

RayC wrote:
And Urdu is a derivative of Arabic, Persian and even Hindi!

Urdu is not considerd a seperate language from Hindi by linguists. It is anologus to people speaking hindi with english words. Use of english words does not make the language a hybrid called Hinglish, from linguist POV it still remains Hindi. Urdu is akin to that, just substitube the english with Persian/Arabic (mostly Persian). Now persian itself is a language of Indo/Iranian branch meaning it has root in Sanskrit!

The reason urdu is not considered a seperate language is because it does not have its own grammer, it just uses Hindi grammer and upto 70% hindi vocabulary. That is why linguists just consider it a Hindi varrient.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 13:26

That is what wikipedia says.

No matter what is said, it is a separate language.

Or else every other Indian language is a derivative of Sanskrit.

There are so many words in Kashmiri which are Bengali and yet Bengali is but a hybrid language!

In fact, all languages are hybrid!

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 01 Aug 2009 13:28

somnathji:

U r getting rattled: u mixed up ur rants:

so anyone to the left of attila the hun (or an (deleted 2 keep somath from being banned)) is a commie or an American stooge?

er.. commie, yes, but American stooge? Those consider Attila to be a kraut commie who was stupid enough to want to go drive in Rome with dem Eyetalians, u know...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2009 15:41

RayC,
wasn't there a "wah" before the first "Hameen"? Many of those couplets are as tasty as choice pickle to be rolled in the tongue as long as possible.

As for J&K, I do not see much future for an Irish type attempt. The religious competition angle is much more intense and foreign power interests on both sides too deep to make any solution on that line impractical and unstable.

From the Indian viewpoint, is there much alternative to not unifying the whole of J&K, including those occupied by TSP or donated to PRC, under Indian sovereignity? Only then can the task of socio-economic reform be really taken forward as western and northern territories could no longer be used by TSP and others to continuously harass and promote disruptions to the normalization and integration process

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 18:47

brihaspati wrote:RayC,
wasn't there a "wah" before the first "Hameen"? Many of those couplets are as tasty as choice pickle to be rolled in the tongue as long as possible.

As for J&K, I do not see much future for an Irish type attempt. The religious competition angle is much more intense and foreign power interests on both sides too deep to make any solution on that line impractical and unstable.

From the Indian viewpoint, is there much alternative to not unifying the whole of J&K, including those occupied by TSP or donated to PRC, under Indian sovereignity? Only then can the task of socio-economic reform be really taken forward as western and northern territories could no longer be used by TSP and others to continuously harass and promote disruptions to the normalization and integration process

Actually, it is Agar Firdous Bar Roo-e-Zameen Ast --- Hameen Ast o Hameen Ast o Hameen Ast

I am doubtful of the unification issue since militarily it is a Herculean task and the Govt does not have the will.

I have seen parts of POK and they are in a pathetic state compared to Kashmir of the Indian side. The Northern Areas are the worst of their lot. Lest someone mistakes that I crossed over in a covert operation and so all that hot air about Balochistan is right, I will hasten to add, I have observed the areas from the posts where one stays for three years, as also when one crosses over for Flag Meetings.

I feel that education and intermingling is the one answer that will give positive results.

I was reading Sei Samay (those days) that narrates the history of 19th Century Bengal. It reminded me of the present conditions of the Muslims in our country. Education and more so, the education to women and their empowerment and the intermingling with other races was what emancipated Bengal.

Therefore, in my opinion, that is what could be the answer.

The Kashmiris have a sharp brain and are ever eager for improvement and knowledge and I re-discovered it when I was involved with Op Sadbhavana. Unlike hinterland Muslims, they push their girl child forward to be educated without any hesitation and in fact, encouraged them to learn!

One has to really stay in Kashmir to realise what Alexander meant when he told Selucus (his General) - Ki bichitro ai desh, Selcucus!

Don't you find Shah Gafoor, the sufi saint's following piece unique:

Meh zan prazlan naran chum
Ram Ram karun gau nam sandarun
Darnai dharun....Soham su

(Narayan dazzles like the moon, Repitition of the name of Rama leads to one's salvation. Meditate upon the Eternal)

And he is a MUSLIM!!!

Check out Amir Khusro at:

Amir Khusro's Poems and Couplets

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Aug 2009 19:03

Jaspreet wrote: An outdated concept, religion has no place in modern life. god and religion are fantasies inspired by humankind's fear of the unknown after death. I have articulated these views before. Trust me, if I intended insult, it wouldn't be to a religion, but to Religion.

Jaspreet-ji,

There are many a books that speak about science being the final frontier. I found this book "Dancing Wu-Li Masters" by Gary Zukov very fascinating. He is a famous economist who got introduced to Physics at some physics conference and writes the thought process, philosophy behind modern sciences. His conclusions are profound, because they drift into the realm of mind-experiments (Einstein’s theory of relativity was proved using this and Math) and where we are going with them. Worth a read. IMVHO that book should be a text book at 10-12th grade level.

archan · Post by **archan** » 01 Aug 2009 19:12

RayC wrote:I am sure Archan is watching this thread.

Yes sir I am. I am thinking if i should let this last usage of the phrase be considered "derogatory" or not.

I really don't wish to ban another user but it sounds like he will persist with the usage so I will eventually have to do the unpleasant thing. I try to give as much rope as possible when it is a matter of my discretion but it is upto the member if they want to participate in discussions or post things that start flame wars, be constructive or destructive.

narayanan wrote:(deleted 2 keep somath from being banned)

ahh...so sweet of you!

archan · Post by **archan** » 01 Aug 2009 19:20

PS: RayC / narayanan ji look at the reported post on the same topic. This was before I posted my last post. Hmm... now that the post has offended another user enough for them to report it, I am really thinking..
I think this calls for a warning/ban.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 01 Aug 2009 19:24

I am going to stay completely out of this, since I have been "certified" on another thread..

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Aug 2009 19:26

Somanath-ji {this time the “ji” is for your uncommon wisdom}

Has India been more secure about J&K anytime before?

Good question. Please ponder how India got to this situation first. Great Kofi Annan’s proclamation is a sad reflection of reality that he (read UN) has no **s to undo Pakistan’s geographic and demographic manipulation, and got nothing to do with India’s leadership. Pakistan “donated” a part to PRC (which is a UNSC veto-member) and altered demographics in the so-called “Azaad” Kashmir.

The answer to all these questions would be pointer to whether India is in a far better state today than she was 20 years back on Kashmir..

For a moment, let us assume you are correct. If India is far better, then why does Indian leadership even want to talk about JK with anyone? If we are on the right trajectory, wouldn’t we have a socially and politically integrated Kashmir in next 5-10 years? Do you foresee such a resolution? Even POK+NA might be interested to join Indian Union in next 20-30 years, isn’t it?

No you tell me who is smoking what and who is fantasizing about jannat on Jambudweepa.

It is not about "indigestion" of some Kashmiri muslims.. Its about the realisation of reality, and not forgeting the big picture..the big picture is that Kashmir or Pakistan is a sideshow in our grand strategic scheme of things..Sustaining a growth of 7-8%, building up a domestic MIC, influencing events in Asia and consolidating our position in the high tables (while keeping all the other "johnies" out) are our objectives..A final solution project, does nothing to aid any of these objectives - in fact sets back all of them by a bit..

How can India influence Asia when its own house is burning (symbolically or is it really)? How can India get to sit at the high tables when (god forbid) Mumbai repeats in Chennai or B’lore? Did you forget Hu and who ran home when a couple of thousand people got on to streets for peaceful demonstrations resulting 150 accidental deaths?

We dont? Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Bangladesh - our influence over essential political processes in these countries is legendary...

This is your list???? Which la-laa land you are living my friend? Other than Bhutan which one of these sub-continental nation's elite has positive affiliation with India?

China enters into an agreement with Jammat e Islami because it wants to keep Xinjiang trouble free...Now Xinjiang has never had a hiostory of security trouble (befroe the recent riots), the Chinese have settled Hans by the millions there, and China has a friendly Pak as neighbour...Why does it then sleep with the "enemy"? simple - it does not want a distraction for its larger goals..

Ahaa… So you do accept Chinese demographic invasion in Xinjiang was a useful strategy and kind of worked for China. Please note this point. This is one wisdom-pill came from your own post.

WB was a peaceful state with zero security issues or historical baggage…

Please read any history book that covers Indian history between 1940-1950. Did you hear about Calcutta riots, where our dear Mahaaatma had to go fasting to stop some human orgy there?

We as a nation state (also as a people might I say) sometimes do not exhibit the "demonstration of will" displayed by some others...We are after all "argumentative Indians"!! But to say we lack national will and we are being buffeted out is a gross underestimation of our achievements -we do it in our own style, but in matters of national importance, seldom do we give in...Kashmir to me a glaring example of that - from 1947 onwards..

“Argumentative Indians”… good catch phrase huh…

Dear Somanath-ji your own posts in the past few pages demonstrate that very “lack of national will” to do what it takes to solve a problem. Be it JK, or Maoism, or NE, or Corruption (ask Rahul Mehta ji), or Education, or Infrastructure, or Women-quota in elective bodies… and so on.

archan · Post by **archan** » 01 Aug 2009 19:36

User somnath has been warned for using the offensive phrase yet again.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 19:45

Archan and N3,

Though I don't discuss these issues on an open forum, but then whats the harm in being a bit unorthodox? No harm in keeping up with the Joneses!

My equation with Somnath has been quite acrimonious in one of the thread, moons back.

Indeed he has a queer streak of being provocative, but then that exicites the mind. It is challenging to the intellect. It provokes one to think and research and then reply. I find that intellectually satisfying and educative.

On the other hand, there are those who are bean counter watchers and immensely boring and repititive! Outburst from Shiv stands witness!

I personally find nothing wrong if the RSS is called knickerbockerwallahs. They are! Don't they wear knickerbockers? I find nothing to be coy about that.

If MMS and other leaders can be called moron and pass the litmus test, why hold a candle for the RSS? I don't find anyone objecting to slurs on other religions and their organisations which maybe equally 'interesting'.

Maybe people who are Congress supporters would find it objectionable that they are called Kangress. When I joined the forum many moons back, I thought this was a reference to Kangaroos!

I am afraid, we should not take any political sides in this type of an apolitical forum. Let the posters take political hues if they feel like! Knickerbockerwallahs or Kangress being used is their prerogative. In fact, even the BJP does not stuff Hunduvta down the throat, even when many of the country equates them as a rabid Hindu party. If they are not concerned, why this sensitiveness over knickerbockers? I find it very inane and lacks sense or substance.
You are well aware that the overdose of Hinduvta and religion in any avatar clouds my mind from thinking!

I leave it to you to decide, but would also request that any slur on other religions that is unjustified should also warrant instant ban!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Aug 2009 19:50

archan wrote:User somnath has been warned for using the offensive phrase yet again.

Archan-ji. I agree with Devaguru's opinion. Let him use all the available derogatory words against RSS or any other organization. The more he uses those words the more he will be forced to support his logic...

Unfortunately our infrastructure bulding efforts are so tardy - whether its the Leh Manali road or the railway link, everything is years behind schedule....Therefore the "quick win" can only be in education - get a bunch of Kashmiri boys trained to be good enough for the IIT/IIMs - build it over time, and in 10-15 years a different middle class will emerge..

Somanath-ji

Kindly clarify. Rest of India gets into IIT/IIMs with zero Govt intereference. Who is stopping kashmiri youth from excelling? To my knowledge they too are trying to excell in terrorism, for them it is a knowledge stream. Why don't APHC ask its youth to focus on education so they can serve as future architects/managers/administrators when Kashmir becomes UNSC veto-yielding developed nation?

Not to judge anyone but how many of IIT/IIMs really stay in India and/or join the key infrastructure fields to support your point above? How can 20-25 youths in IITs/IIMs change the JK socio-political scene in 10-15 years (that is about 200-375 middle class youth who would enter their 40s caring for their children's education and working towards their retirements)?

If your logic is correct, then rest of India should be a Jannat by now with ~5000 IIT/IIMs joining the social stream every year for the past 20-25 years. Can you please show me that Jannat in India, so I can plan my retirement there?

archan · Post by **archan** » 01 Aug 2009 20:06

I personally find nothing wrong if the RSS is called knickerbockerwallahs. They are! Don't they wear knickerbockers? I find nothing to be coy about that.

It is not about what me or you think. I have a simple rule. While moderating a topic, my opinions on the given topic of discussion don't count. I have no love for RSS - I don't care enough about them. My philosophy is simple, I want to keep discussions civil. People can have any opinion they want - none of my business. But when they begin to offend other users, and create conditions that degrade the overall forum environment, I step in.
I have had to ban CRamS and Baljeet in the Sharm al Sheikh thread. Both are very patriotic people IMO and they always had good intentions and I don't necessarily disagree with them on many issues. But what I said above made me step in when I saw what I felt was not good for the forum.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 20:14

RamaY wrote:
archan wrote:User somnath has been warned for using the offensive phrase yet again.
Archan-ji. I agree with Devaguru's opinion. Let him use all the available derogatory words against RSS or any other organization. The more he uses those words the more he will be forced to support his logic...

Unfortunately our infrastructure bulding efforts are so tardy - whether its the Leh Manali road or the railway link, everything is years behind schedule....Therefore the "quick win" can only be in education - get a bunch of Kashmiri boys trained to be good enough for the IIT/IIMs - build it over time, and in 10-15 years a different middle class will emerge..
Somanath-ji

Kindly clarify. Rest of India gets into IIT/IIMs with zero Govt intereference. Who is stopping kashmiri youth in excelling? To my knowledge they too are trying to excell in terrorism, for them it is a knowledge stream. Why don't APHC ask its youth to focus on education so they can serve as future architects/managers/administrators when Kashmir becomes UNSC veto-yielding developed nation?

Not to judge anyone but how many of IIT/IIMs really stay in India and/or join the key infrastructure fields to support your point above? How can 20-25 youths in IITs/IIMs change the JK socio-political scene in 10-15 years (that is about 200-375 middle class youth who would enter their 40s caring for their children's education and working towards their retirements)?

If your logic is correct, then rest of India should be a Jannat by now with ~5000 IIT/IIMs joining the social stream every year for the past 20-25 years. Can you please show me that Jannat in India, so I can plan my retirement there?

One has to know Kashmir to comment.

Honour Killings are taking place in India. Why? Lack of education and emancipation.

Why are the Honour Killing confined to the cowbelt and not anywhere else in India? They are mostly illiterates and steeped in false honour! They are people who refuse to embrace contemporary thniking since they are beyond education!

My experience indicates education is a crying need in Kashmir. Not the madrassa type but what you and I have been given.

Even in the NE, there was not adequate education. There is now education there, but no employment and so the trouble continues, though on a lower scale than before. Therefore, there is merit in the need for education in the far flung parts of the India. Have you seen how many people from the NE crowd the universities in hinterland India! Are they troublesome? But because they wear western clothes, we trouble them, mostly those in North India.

Kashmiri youth excel in terrrorism? Are you aware how the youth are introduced to terrorism? If so, please educate us! We are all ears. If you don't know, then don't assume and cast aspersions! To quote your phrase - can you show how the Kashmiri youth are excelling in terrorism instead of excelling in education?

Please compare the number of quality schools in Kashmir with the quality schools in rest of India. You give them the opportunity and they will also be able to compete for IITs and IIMs.

Let us not superimpose Alice in Wonderland for logic!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 20:17

archan wrote:
I personally find nothing wrong if the RSS is called knickerbockerwallahs. They are! Don't they wear knickerbockers? I find nothing to be coy about that.
It is not about what me or you think. I have a simple rule. While moderating a topic, my opinions on the given topic of discussion don't count. I have no love for RSS - I don't care enough about them. My philosophy is simple, I want to keep discussions civil. People can have any opinion they want - none of my business. But when they begin to offend other users, and create conditions that degrade the overall forum environment, I step in.
I have had to ban CRamS and Baljeet in the Sharm al Sheikh thread. Both are very patriotic people IMO and they always had good intentions and I don't necessarily disagree with them on many issues. But what I said above made me step in when I saw what I felt was not good for the forum.

I appreciate your thumb rule.

I find it offensive if someone equates our leaders with epithets without justifying why they feel so. If a chap is called a moron, then it must be justified and not left in mid air.

Do ban them also!

Eg I feel that it is apt to call the RSS kickerbockerwallahs. It is justified because that is what they wear and not dhotis or any other type of clothing like western clothes!

You are right that the forum cannot be reduced to a cesspool.

I shall be more vigilant and ban people stepping across the Rubicon!

archan · Post by **archan** » 01 Aug 2009 20:21

Honour Killings are taking place in India. Why? Lack of education and emancipation.

I sometimes wonder does one need education for being humane? isn't it something that comes naturally to normal human beings?
What does "education" mean? teaching physics, chem, math, english, regional language yada yada...
I don't know if one needs to be taught all that to figure out that killing another human being is wrong. To me it appears that the so called honor killings are done with motives other than protecting one's honor. Honor is just another excuse used to avoid prosecution for the crime. And someone who uses such excuses is hardly gullible (often uneducated people are considered gullible). They look like they are pretty smart to me.

archan · Post by **archan** » 01 Aug 2009 20:24

RayC wrote:
I find it offensive if someone equates our leaders with epithets without justifying why they feel so. If a chap is called a moron, then it must be justified and not left in mid air.

Do ban them also!

You have the power! do I have to remind you of your capability, oh Hanuman!

(just kidding!)
The last person who called some of our leaders morons was banned by me but hey do use your armor once in a while! it might save me from some bad rep.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 20:30

archan wrote:
Honour Killings are taking place in India. Why? Lack of education and emancipation.
I sometimes wonder does one need education for being humane? isn't it something that comes naturally to normal human beings?
What does "education" mean? teaching physics, chem, math, english, regional language yada yada...
I don't know if one needs to be taught all that to figure out that killing another human being is wrong. To me it appears that the so called honor killings are done with motives other than protecting one's honor. Honor is just another excuse used to avoid prosecution for the crime. And someone who uses such excuses is hardly gullible (often uneducated people are considered gullible). They look like they are pretty smart to me.

Education does not mean formal education.

It is an ammalgam of formal education, civics and plain and simple good moral education at home.

Again, you should understand the rural haryanvi ethos to realise that honour has a different connotation to what you understand. Your interpretation is what the elitists would like to believe. Jaat, Gotra are a very important aspect of the rural folks.

The rural folks are smart and smarter than many of the educated, but they are steeped in their ideas of yore.

Are you aware till of late, no toilets were allowed in the houses in rural Haryana? it was believed that it would pollute the village?! Can you believe it that one of my officer who constructed a toilet in his house was banished from the village?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2009 22:36

RayC,
yes it should start with "Agar", "gar" has no meaning here. I like Urfi, as far as I can read. Several of the Sufi "saints" in Kashmir are associated with obvious syncretic tendencies. Problem is that historically, the "Sufi" inspiration does not seem to have lessened the "jihadi" zeal and consequences on non-Muslim Kashmiris - even as recorded by "Sufi" historians themselves.

I liked Amir Khusrau a long time until I read up his prose and commentaries of a historical nature. Here he is as bigoted against the "Indic", and as sadistic as any other "Islamic" warlord - and can be bracketed with Maulana Ziauddin Barani. You should just read his comments on the casual enslavement and "use" of abducted or captured "Hindoo" women. It may be worthwhile to read through the collections available in translation at www.packhum.org/persian. Some of the original Persian is more brutal and frank (I think you can read Persian - since you quoted Urfi

).

As for eductational opportunities, I heard in the 90's from my Kashmiri (Muslim) friends, that the militants and separatists were targeting childrens' school, especially the girls education in the state system. A whole generation apparently was deliberately pushed into the Madrassah system. I was unable to visit or "pass through" J&K post 97. I am reporting from the period 89-96.