Indian Army Discussion

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 00:14

The problem with you chaps is that you don't understand that if there is a dhobi, why the hell would a sahayak clean the clothes?

If you want to hallucinate, you are welcome.

It is like people explaining to Neil Armstrong as to how he should walk on the moon.

Experience it and then pontificate!

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 00:15

Im not a certain Shukla, and Ive been around (on this forum, and in life), long enough, that I know at least a little bit of what Im talking about.

The point is not to win an internet flame bait and trash talk war.

Remember, the people we talk about are real, and not a can of empty words. They really DO give their lives, and their limbs for us. They deserve respect. And dont come running to tell me that you give "them" respect, but not "X, Y, or Z", according to your whims.

If it gives you any pleasure, talk down my posts, or those of others on this forum. But dont rubbish the armed forces.

@Surya: No, I dont have any intention of demeaning Sachin's posts. He makes rational assertions. And Im sure spending hours designing and updating the BR Army pages gives him several 'rights'. I wonder, whether having served several decades of their life in the Indian Army, doesnt give certain other posters on this board some inalienable 'rights' too?

@Katare: Have you ever been in the field, during military maneouvers? Are you so familiar with commn technology, that you are sure that a runner is never required? What if someone needs to be found and is out of radio contact? Lets not dissemble.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 00:18

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 00:19

ASPuar wrote:
Katare wrote:
Ray Saab,

Have one more "sahayak" if you would but I don't want him to be counted/called as soldier. Sahayak/sevak/driver is OK as long as they are hired for that job. I don't like soilders of my country washing cloths of sahibs and buying sabji and gas tanki for memsahib and next day picking up INSAS and laying their life for the country.

Big words, but what about when that "sahab" is also laying down his life for the country? Unlike police and CPO's, army officers are killed every month, leading their men from the FRONT.

This so called "sahab" is not like you and me, living in civil life, enjoying freedom thanks to the so called "sahab", who will die for you, is he? Army officers live and die for this country.

You grandly make your dislikes known, regarding "Soldiers of our YOUR country". Good. I will make one known too. I dont like soldiers of my country INCLUDING officers, doing all the dirty work for us, and then being maligned like this.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 00:23

The unfortuate part is many know so little of how the Army works.

They rely on drawing room conversation and idle gossip.

For instance, what would they understand about the employability of a runner? To them they think they are runners - athletes doing 100m dash!

To explain is a futile exercise.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Aug 2009 00:47

ASP

Sure - and argue about it - but as I point out the crux of the argument from the other side boils down couple of points and those 2 points will never sway anyone in a public debate.

But if someone wants to call us armchair generals and fanboys and thus cannot comment purely because we have not served - they have essentially lost the argument.

Because most of the groups that will decide how this issue goes are outside - ie. the press, the public and the Politicians. (and of course the civil service). Plus the other 2 services are not even going to bother about this.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Aug 2009 00:55

Well lets be honest about it this 'sahayak' thing dates back to British Raaj when an English officer ICS/serving could afford to keep an Indian as a 'sahayak' it was more of a privilege and mark of royalty/luxury rather than necessity or anything to do with carrying out tasks in the Army.

Times have changed and there is no reason why IA/IAS should think otherwise ; IN and IAF do not have this 'sahayak' concept if they can function without it no reason why IA or IAS cannot.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 04 Aug 2009 02:17

Random thoughts of an Indian civilian:
In a modern democracy, common poeple is GOD and media is the priest. So, there is no alternative of good PR, it is as essential/mandatory as the the food, water and air. A decede or two ago, it might be OK not to be good in this department but not nowadays and it will become even more important in future.

One might argue that is not the main functionality for certain organization. But that is not a valid argument if they are dependent on public fund. No one can be capable in their function if the necessary amount of fund is lacking.

Army PR is behind the time. This becomes evident each and everytime someone makes the argument that the only way to understand army POV is to join it. It does not matter how true that statement is as a fact. There has to be a better attempt to explain the army POV to common public and IMVHO, it is absolutely the responsibility of the army to make that effort.

Otherwise the common will show high respect for the army in general but it will not translate to anything -
A. The salary and living standards will not improve (burocracy will systematically chip away. The politian will not oppose because the common people will not care enough).
B. The respect from the common people will be for their sacrifice(because they lay down their life for the nation; here the common people do care as evident in the public outcry against the political decision of the no celebration on Kargil diwas) but not for achievement(aspiration for the next generation will be for doctors and engineers and not armed force officer even if one is interested to say, drive a tank or fly a jet or ride a boat, if you get my drift).

These above lack of funds issues will discourage many deserving candidates to join the armed forces.
If the next batch of army officers are lesser in quality and quantity(evident in the vacancy of officers) than the previous batch in a long run, the army as an organization (and the whole nation) will suffer and that will reflect poorly on the current crop of army thinkers in terms of long term strategic planning ability.

It is clear to everyone that the burocracy has an agenda. Nowadays, who does not? Hell, even SHQ have one when she praises my cooking ability

. Everyone know it and deal with it the best way they can. And catching the bull by its horn is certainly not the best way when you can safely catch its gonad

So, this is just a humble suggestion to supporters of the army way of thinking. Please keep in mind the PR aspect as well as the fact itself when arguing for a point. Deep inside, almost everyone in this board bat for the same team.

Sandipan · Post by **Sandipan** » 04 Aug 2009 02:48

Indian army might need another war to boost its PR

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Aug 2009 02:55

I dont understand the urge to impose civilian mores on armed forces ethos. How is this different from Omar Khalidi type diatribes?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Aug 2009 03:07

It is not seen as civilian mores - it is seen more of a Raj era - British more - being followed in todays era.

It is also easily identified with by the public and press and politician. It is also the most visible for the ordinary person when he see army officers and their families in peace station routines.

But you bring up a point which I hinted at - the Civil services can be more nasty and push other things along (similar ) the Khalidi line if the ARmy picks a fight on such things.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Aug 2009 08:19

^^^Unfortunately in India govt perks have become almost a way of life for public servants..Almost everyone thinks some of these things are a "right"!!

Left to me, I would simply sell off most of the govt housing in Lutyen's Delhi (incl ministerial ones) and ask the occpants to find places in the market for themselves...Expense is a huge bogey, the govt spends much more maintaining these properties than it would on the opportunity cost of these "unproductive" assets plus compensating public servants on market levels...I remember in the early '90s govt housing in Delhi was a scam - remember PK Thungon and Shiela Kaul?!

In Bombay, Navy occupies the prime Navy Nagar area - again no reason for naval officers to be cloistered in one locality - they should be paid HRAs and they should search for acco themselves..The point on coming to work "tired" is a red herring...millions of people do that every day in bombay (mumbai!)...Way back in 2000 when I started working there, I was taking the "local train" to commute - for working hours that were 12-14 regularly starting @ 8 - and I was supposed to be among the "privilaged few" community of people working in international banks! Ditto with civvie housing in Mumbai - at Napien Sea Road (though the no of flats is so small there that most officers go to far off suburbs like Ghatkopar)...

Guest houses - I know of umpteen cases, both civvie and military, of officers using govt and esp PSU (especially DPSU) gues houses for private functions like birthdays and marriages..there is no reason to maintain these guest houses at all...Just get a few hotels "empanelled" and let employees travelling stay there..Costs will be lower than maintaini the white elephants....

In the military, if officers are staying in a family station, dont see why they cannot stay outside the "campus" in various partts of the city..Tons of organisations today are maintaining 24/7 operations involving thousands of people, and all extremely time sensitive..If they can manage, why cant the services?

BTW, I am not picking on the services here, but the whole govt machinery - I have also been (to avery limited extent

) a benficiary of this regime..But as a nation we need to move the public servant as close to the "public" as possible..

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 04 Aug 2009 08:42

General trouble
IN A move that is bound to create a new caste system in the Army's senior-most Lt Gen cadre, Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor has put forward a proposal to make the Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) and Military Intelligence (DGMI) as Principal Staff Officers (PSOs) at the Army Headquarters.
When the proposal goes through, the Army will have a total of nine PSOs, including the Adjutant General and two Deputy Chiefs, at Army HQ, creating an uncomfortable hierarchy within the Lt Gen cadre. At one level will be the six Commander-in-Chiefs who will be accorded the highest number of privileges.
The second will be PSOs at Army HQ who will get perks like out-of-turn allotment of accommodation, an additional staff car as well as the power to summon aircraft for travel. The third would be the Director Generals of various services and arms. This "caste system" has caused a lot of discomfiture, with several officers not happy with the idea of "layers" in the Lt Gen cadre. What makes it even more difficult is that most of the current PSOs are junior in terms of seniority and pay scales to the DGs at Army HQ. However, they would be entitled to extra perks and privileges over their seniors. Another likely move has raised even more concern. The Army Chief is said to be contemplating not writing the ACRs (Annual Confidential Reports) of all Lt Gens, as is now the norm, but restricting his involvement o the ACRs of only the PSOs at Army HQ. The PSOs, in turn, would be deputed to write the ACRs of the DGs and other Lt Gens.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Aug 2009 08:52

^^^ One part of the Army organisation that is not scrutinised as much as required is the increasing "top heaviness" of the force...Post the AV Singh committee implementation, the IA has more general staff officers than the US Army...Today, all infantry battalions are commanded by full Colonels, all combat squadrons led by Wing Commanders, all wings by group Captains, most Navy ships (even smaller ones) commanded by Captains and even commodores....Instead of maintaining a "younger" force, this is probably creating a "greyer" one..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 09:09

Actually, these days the promotions are faster.

The ones who are to deliver in war is much younger than before.

The GS absorbs the 'old gold'.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Aug 2009 09:14

somnath wrote: all combat squadrons led by Wing Commanders, .

Been that way since 1963!

somnath wrote:all wings by group Captains, .

Where were you? Try Air Commodores

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 04 Aug 2009 09:20

Forgive me if it is a newbie question.
This question stems from somnath's assertion that Army is top heavy.
I am asking this question because if an organization becomes top heavy wont the duties at some level become redundant??
For example NCOs may not be independent enough in taking their decisions.....
Would the NCO role differ compared to other armies??

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Aug 2009 09:58

Some data on the AV Singh phase II impact:

the official release
http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=43392&kwd=

The total number of posts to be upgraded will be 1051 in the Army, 342 in the Navy and 503 in the Air Force. Of the 1051 posts in the Army, 20 are at the level of Lieutenant General and equivalent, 75 at Major General and equivalent, 222 at Brigadier and equivalent, and 734 at Colonel and equivalent. The corresponding figures in the Navy will be 4 at Vice Admiral and equivalent, 14 at Rear Admiral and equivalent, 324 at Commodore, Captain and equivalent. In the Air Force upgradation will be effected for 6 post at Air Marshal and equivalent, 21 at Air Vice Marshal and equivalent, 61 at Air Commodore and equivalent, 415 at Group Captain and equivalent

100 new general staff officers for the Army, almost 500 new Group Captains/Air Commodores..In a scenario where the IAF is talking about declingin nos of aircraft..What will 100 new generals do? simply, existing jobs will be "upgraded" to a higher rank..

Total numbers here:

http://reportmysignal.blogspot.com/2009 ... 6-new.html

Rank/ present/ additional/ total
Lt Gens/ 61/ 20/ 81
Maj Gens/ 191/ 75/ 266
Brigs/ 824/ 222/ 1046
Cols/ 3389/ 734/ 4123

We have 13 Corps, 6 operational commands, and one "functional" command (ARTRAC)...About 300-400 infantry battalions? about 30-40 divisions? About 100-120 brigades? Do we need so many Colonels? or Brigadiers? Or general staff officers?

Rank/ present/ additional/ total
Air Marshals/ 22/ 6/ 30
Air Vice marshal/ 47/ 27/ 74
Air Commodore/ 131// 61/ 192
Group Captains/ 476/ 415/ 891

At this rate, squadrons will be commanded by Group Captains! And wings by AVMs...

Rank/ present/ additional/ total
Vice Admirals/ 15/ 4/ 19
Rear Admiral/ 43/ 14/ 57
Commodore/ Captain/ 418/ 324/ 742

The IN has about 140 ships (of all sizes) - Will Rear Admirals start commanding destroyers now?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Aug 2009 11:39

In Bombay, Navy occupies the prime Navy Nagar area - again no reason for naval officers to be cloistered in one locality - they should be paid HRAs and they should search for accommodation themselves. The point on coming to work "tired" is a red herring...millions of people do that every day in Bombay (Mumbai!)...Way back in 2000 when I started working there, I was taking the "local train" to commute - for working hours that were 12-14 regularly starting @ 8 - and I was supposed to be among the "privileged few" community of people working in international banks! Ditto with civvies housing in Mumbai - at Napien Sea Road (though the no of flats is so small there that most officers go to far off suburbs like Ghatkopar)...

After you write something as nonsensical as above and say with a straight face that you’re not picking on the services, it is really quite hypocritical. It seems that either you do not understand how the services work and its ethos or simply do not want to understand. Arguments and constructive criticism is one thing; making asinine comments as above are completely different.

So pray do tell me, when did Navy Nagar and Colaba become prime areas? In 2000 when you landed in Mumbai realized these good for nothing Navy fellows living in the most pristine of areas? How about trying to figure out when the Navy established the harbor facilities and operations in Mumbai? And what was the state of development of Mumbai then? And if tomorrow Navy vacates the area, what are you going to do with it? Make houses for LIG/EWS of the society? Or make high rise swanking residential complexes for corporate fat cats and politicians and sell the same at INR50,000-INR60,000 per sq.ft?

And why is the beef with Services only in the metropolitan locations? Are them the children of lesser god? Every one sees the situation as of today and not how it has progressed over a period? Same story can be fond in Bangalore. IA here is seen as an eyesore. How dare it occupy 5000hectares of land in what is the middle of the city today? Aren’t they supposed be in some far off place away from the sight of the public? It does not matter that majority of this “prime” land was a mosquitoes infested swamp earlier. That Service personal were given land at low rates in today’s Defence Colony in Bangalore because no one else was willing to stay in what was essentially a jungle with wild animals roaming about. That civilians were too scared to get the land from BDA and who else better than the Services guys (who as it is could not afford anything else) to build up the civilization in these areas?

And honestly as for rest of your post comparing the working of the Services with a Call center/Bank/whatever is simply too idiotic to even comment upon.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Aug 2009 12:03

^^^ Since you dont make too much of an argument barring the personal adjectives (epithets!), I would stick to the few points where you are grossly mistaken..

1. I was referrgin to the entire public sector/govt midset - not just the services - refer to the entire post...

2. I did not say "good for nothing Navy fellows" etc - you did...The discussion is about usage of public resources, and point was whether govt should be maintaining housing for its employees (note I also made the point aboput civvie housing in Napean Sea road)..BTW, selling off the Navy Nagar area to fatcats etc would be quite a good deal for the Consolidated Fund of India - the repository of all tax monies..Can help pay for a lot of things that are crucial, including defence..

3. The point on ethos etc are huge red herrings...In the '60s and '70s, banking used to LGD (lunch Golf Dinner) affairs, prime skills used to be table manners and dancing skills!! Company acco used to be part of the "foreign bank" ethos..Today, the whole paradigm has changed - no one's complaining about ethos etc..

There is never a "wholesale synonym" - however one need to have an open mind to change with the world..To pick up lessons from other areas...However you are too enthralled in your own rant to apply your mind..

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 04 Aug 2009 12:06

ASPuar wrote:
Katare wrote:
Ray Saab,

Have one more "sahayak" if you would but I don't want him to be counted/called as soldier. Sahayak/sevak/driver is OK as long as they are hired for that job. I don't like soilders of my country washing cloths of sahibs and buying sabji and gas tanki for memsahib and next day picking up INSAS and laying their life for the country.
Big words, but what about when that "sahab" is also laying down his life for the country? Unlike police and CPO's, army officers are killed every month, leading their men from the FRONT.

This so called "sahab" is not like you and me, living in civil life, enjoying freedom thanks to the so called "sahab", who will die for you, is he? Army officers live and die for this country.

You grandly make your dislikes known, regarding "Soldiers of our YOUR country". Good. I will make one known too. I dont like soldiers of my country INCLUDING officers, doing all the dirty work for us, and then being maligned like this.

Well said. All this talk reminds me of the report(s) in 'The Week' during Kargil days who were all for the jawans and were critical of the officers ....stopped reading The Week for a long time after that (actually have only occasionally bothered about it since then).

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 04 Aug 2009 12:11

Surya wrote:ASP

Sure - and argue about it - but as I point out the crux of the argument from the other side boils down couple of points and those 2 points will never sway anyone in a public debate.

But if someone wants to call us armchair generals and fanboys and thus cannot comment purely because we have not served - they have essentially lost the argument.

Because most of the groups that will decide how this issue goes are outside - ie. the press, the public and the Politicians. (and of course the civil service). Plus the other 2 services are not even going to bother about this.

But are you not being too quick to cast aspersions? Your point is valid that many of the folks with a voice are those that do not have a view of how things work or need to work but the discourse is not helped when you ridicule ...

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 04 Aug 2009 12:16

negi wrote:Well lets be honest about it this 'sahayak' thing dates back to British Raaj when an English officer ICS/serving could afford to keep an Indian as a 'sahayak' it was more of a privilege and mark of royalty/luxury rather than necessity or anything to do with carrying out tasks in the Army.

Times have changed and there is no reason why IA/IAS should think otherwise ; IN and IAF do not have this 'sahayak' concept if they can function without it no reason why IA or IAS cannot.

Negi, IAF or IN are in air bases and naval ships. Army is in the 'field'. Surely that has an impact on the requirements -- the 'runner' aspect seems to indicate that certainly. One may discuss other aspects of whether a batman should be allowed or not, but IAF or IN are different settings.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Aug 2009 12:27

^ Not true ; I do not wish to go into details.My point is very simple if folks in IA or any service need human labor to assist with daily chores then they should get a servant .The concept of Sahayak is obsolete and a burden on the public exchequer ; moreover it tends to get exploited and miss used at times which is unavoidable as its a freebie .

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 04 Aug 2009 13:14

Kargil hero's mother on mission to motivate youth to join army
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 041323.htm

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 13:44

Surya wrote:It is not seen as civilian mores - it is seen more of a Raj era - British more - being followed in todays era.

It is also easily identified with by the public and press and politician. It is also the most visible for the ordinary person when he see army officers and their families in peace station routines.

But you bring up a point which I hinted at - the Civil services can be more nasty and push other things along (similar ) the Khalidi line if the ARmy picks a fight on such things.

Army's work is the army's work, and I appreciate what they do, and chose not to criticize how they do it. Surya is correct, however, in that the babus can twist things around, and try and show the military in a bad light through the media. In fact, Id started the "Anti-armed forces propaganda thread", for the express purpose of highlighting it. In the post pay commission fight, as many as 91 anti military stories appeared in the press! Remarkable. Military brass should learn how to manage the media. The police and IAS actually misuse an unauthorised sahayak facility, to a horrific extent, at our expense. But we never hear about that, do we?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 13:54

For example, this little heard about news article, in a REGIONAL paper:

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/hyderaba ... -death-718

High-level probe into Octopus driver death

Hyderabad

Aug. 3:

The Chief Minister, Dr Y.S. Rajasekhar Reddy, ordered a high-level probe into the death of the constable P. Muralinath who was working at the residence of the Octopus anti-terror force chief, Mr Vivek Dubey, even as the State Human Rights Commission asked for a report on the incident.

The Chief Minister expressed anger over the police continuing with the system of orderlies — posting serving personnel at the houses of officials — though it was abolished in 2005.
The home minister, Ms P. Sabita Indra Reddy, explained that though the system was abolished, there was a clause which enabled IPS officials to have orderlies under a different heading. Constables and homeguards still work as cooks, drivers and servants at the homes of many IPS officials.

The Chief Minister constituted a committee consisting of the chief secretary, the home secretary and the director-general of police to look into the Muralinath incident and the existence of the orderly system.

Dr Reddy said Mr Dubey, in whose house Muralinath was posted, and Mr Abraham Lincoln, the State Armed Reserve CPL commandant, who dispatched Muralinath, would face stringent action if they were guilty.

On the system of using orderlies, the CM asked police officials in a meeting, “If IAS officers have no such facility, why should the IPS officers have it,” he said. “How can a police constable sent to the house of a police officer in some other place.”

Sources in the police department said that Mr Lincoln, an SP rank officer, has no authority to send any police personnel out of the state; only a DIG rank official has that power. Sources said two more constables are working at Mr Dubey’s at Noida. A police official said, “one is a constable from APSP and other from the central paramilitary force where Mr Dubey worked earlier was a cook in his house.” The body of the Muralinath did not arrive by Monday evening and his family, locals and dalit organisations observed a bandh in Saroornagar. They burnt the effigy of Mr Dubey and demanded his arrest. Ms Sabita Indra Reddy visited the family of Muralinath at Lingojiguda. “We can’t bring him back to life. But the government will take care of his family. All possible help will be extended to them,” she said. “The culprits however big they are will not be let off.”

The SHRC chairperson, Justice Subhashan Reddy, asked the chief secretary to file a report on the incident. Acting on a petition filed by the constable’s wife, Justice Reddy said prima facie there was violation of human rights of Kavita and her husband. Justice Reddy also asked the government for the action taken on the persons responsible for the Muralinath’s death.
Ms Kavita complained that Muralinath has been treated inhumanely by Mr Dubey and Mr Lincoln. She said that he had died at the house of Mr Dubey’s daughter in Noida, Delhi. She alleged that Muralinath had told her over the telephone that he was not being given food and water and was being made to drink his own urine. She alleged that her husband was murdered.
Why was Muralinath sent to Delhi, and under whose authority, asked the commission. “What are the circumstances leading to the death of the constable,” Justice Reddy asked. “What is the action taken by the authorities after they were informed of Muralinath’s death and why was there a delay in bringing back his body to Hyderabad handing it over to his wife.”

A truly horrific story.

Here, we find a senior IPS officer, cornering not one, but SEVERAL orderlies for himself, AND for his FAMILY, who are not serving civil servants. The orderlies are posted not just with him, in Andhra Pradesh, but also in NOIDA, with relatives!

The orderlies are drawn not just from AP police, but also from Central Police Org's that he used to work with!

You speak of ill treatment of sahayaks? There are rules on their treatment in the army for them. But here, we find he is mistreated to the point of DEATH. Note, that he is a POLICEMAN, not a servant. But how has he been treated?

Seriously, guys.

These are the sort of people who are raising issues like sahayaks in the military. These are the people chucking the stones! Most of you know, that this is the sort of scum, which is questioning and maligning the military. Is it right?

This could never have happened to an army man, because no CO could dream of assigning orderlies from his BN for senior officers relatives homes (believe me, some of my relatives were one stop below the top army post, and they never did this sort of thing, nor could they ever imagine doing it).

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 14:02

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 854476.cms

Attention! Cops turn slave runners

TNN 4 August 2009, 04:35am IST

HYDERABAD:

Senior police officers illegally employing lower cadre personnel for personal use is the norm rather than the exception in the
state.

And it’s not just Octopus chief Vivek Dube — whose driver P Muralinath turned up dead in mysterious circumstances near Gwalior while allegedly on a domestic chore — but cops right from inspectors to DGPs have been virtually running a fiefdom in their offices and homes in which constables and home guards are forced to cook food, wash clothes, clean the house, go to the market, ferry children to schools and chaperon family members.

On Monday, CM Y S Rajasekhara Reddy ordered a departmental inquiry into the case of reserve constable P Muralinath who was assigned to Dube. But his expression of amazement that orderlies were still employed by IPS officers despite the ban on the practice came as a surprise as it is an open secret. Muralinath was allegedly assigned to Dube’s family in Noida and was found dead near railway tracks near Gwalior on July 30. Since the victim is a Dalit, Dube can face additional charges under the SC/ST Prevention of Atrocities Act in case any foul play is established.

While the government probe seeks to establish how many such personnel are employed illegally at the homes of top officers, it remains to be seen if it would do any good to the harassed staff.

As per the rule book, each officer is entitled to a certain number of personnel depending on his/her rank. Drivers for the official vehicles are also drawn from this pool. While a DGP is entitled to two head constables and four constables, including a driver; the ACP or DSP, the lowest-ranked officer to get this privilege, is allotted two constables.

Officially, they are meant for official work only — attending phone calls, handling messages, screening visitors and accompanying officers on official tours. Unofficially, the hapless junior staff are made to do all kind of domestic chores. “Most wives of senior officers do not cook, it is done by these poor constables and home guards. In one instance, a home guard drives the cop’s wife to her office in the family car, then takes the bus to report for duty on a daily basis,” said one cop.

Now, in the army, personal sahayaks (ONLY ONE), are authorised only from the rank of Captain, onwards. Here, even a DSP, who is a group B government servant in most states, (equivalent to a Subedar (a JCO), despite the Captain's shoulder straps which he wears, thanks to the ridiculous police uniform rules, adopted in the 1960's), gets TWO constables for doing all sorts of chores, for which no official guidelines seem to have been set.

I know, most of you already know this, and agree that this abuse should be stopped in the police. I know most of you are already aware. But when it is the police and others, who raise the issue of sahayaks to malign the army (and best of all, do it saying "We dont get sahayaks, why is army following colonial traditions"?), I think at least forum members should see what it is, that they (policemen) themselves are up to!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 Aug 2009 14:38

^^ This is getting a little tiring, don't you think? As you yourself have written, most people in this forum are aware of this and vehemently condemn it. So forum members, imho, are very much aware of what policemen and ias are up to. I do not want to get into the debate of whether the practice of using jawans as sahayaks is wright or wrong. But it is a lost argument (and a little childish) to say "xyz are doing this much wrong, so we are entitled to at least a little of this and that" and you seem to be doing just that for quite a while(please do not twist my words. I am not judging whether sahayak practice is wright or wrong). IAS and IPS officers do much wrong apart from this. That is why they command little respect as compared to IA. You will not find sites dedicated to IAS and IPS with thousands of forum members discussing them passionately. So, you do your cause little service by giving such arguments. Arguments like those of RayC sir, which give logical reasons for the need of sahayaks have much more force in them.
I find nothing wrong with your stand(each is entitled to his opinion), just with your argument.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 14:52

Sorry. I know that all the guys who come here, come because in the end, they feel the same as I do, in the net calculus.

The story in of itself, is a sad, and distressing one, worthy of being posted on BR. And the issue which it covers, is a live one, currently being discussed within this thread. If you, or other members object to it, we can remove it, but I think it is perfectly reasonable to post it here. BR provides a forum not only for ogling over the latest hardware, but also for discussion of other matters concerning our uniformed services.

I am not at all saying that XYZ is doing all this wrong, so the army should be allowed to do it (I do NOT represent the army, by the way). I am trying to illustrate that while there are stringent rules for the use of sahayaks in the army, there seem to be none in these other services. Which is why sahayaks are (generally) used for the correct purpose in the army, and not in the other services.

The sahayak has a use, even today, and that use is not as a servant.

As to the rest, whether the system is justifiable or not, is a matter for political debate. As Surya and others have pointed out, the question is, can the sahayak be justified in the public eye (since he has been BROUGHT into the public eye)?

Time will tell.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 15:16

negi wrote:^ Not true ; I do not wish to go into details.My point is very simple if folks in IA or any service need human labor to assist with daily chores then they should get a servant .The concept of Sahayak is obsolete and a burden on the public exchequer ; moreover it tends to get exploited and miss used at times which is unavoidable as its a freebie .

Have you any experience with shayaks or as a sahayak to be an expert on how shayaks feel?

If not, you are as relevant as Arundhuti Roy and her bleeding heart Brigade!

Guess what, the IA is butchering in Kashmir! Right?

So Arundhuti is right and so are the WKK or whatever you call them!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Aug 2009 15:23

^^^ the sahayak business is quite a big red herring..If "misuse" of public infrastructure by public servants is being assessed, there are much bigger issues (from a purely cost perspective) to address..And confusing the issue with "maltreatement" is quite bizarre - there are cases of maltreatement even with private servants, constables in police officer's houses, malis in the DM's bungalow etc etc..Or for that matter issues of CPWD Exec Engineers using CPWD staff to do electrical wiring in their own houses...Or for that matter using public servants (civvie and military) to help in organising the house while relocating!!

Unfortunately, we (I mean the media here) tend to ignore the real issues challenging the services, the fundamental ones..I guess it is easier doing these "human interest" stories (whether its the case of a sahayak or ex servicement dharnas over 6th CPC) than to do hard nosed defence analysis..

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 16:00

somnath wrote:^^^ the sahayak business is quite a big red herring..If "misuse" of public infrastructure by public servants is being assessed, there are much bigger issues (from a purely cost perspective) to address..And confusing the issue with "maltreatement" is quite bizarre - there are cases of maltreatement even with private servants, constables in police officer's houses, malis in the DM's bungalow etc etc..Or for that matter issues of CPWD Exec Engineers using CPWD staff to do electrical wiring in their own houses...Or for that matter using public servants (civvie and military) to help in organising the house while relocating!!

Unfortunately, we (I mean the media here) tend to ignore the real issues challenging the services, the fundamental ones..I guess it is easier doing these "human interest" stories (whether its the case of a sahayak or ex servicement dharnas over 6th CPC) than to do hard nosed defence analysis..

Forgive me, but the story posted above isnt simply human interest, like some article in readers digest. Its abuse, to the extent of ending up in death.

And you are correct that the Army sahayak issue is a red herring too. Its motivated reporting, goaded on by certain quarters, who have a vested interest in its propagation. That is the point Ive been trying to make all along. And the fact that these interested parties spreading tales are the sorts of people who perpetrate the acts described in the story above, is a matter to be noted. It exposes the hollowness of their fraud claims.

Most of the media, as you are well aware, is not competent to do any sort of cogent analysis, be it defence or otherwise.

I watched an interview with Bharat Karnad, where the girl interviewing him said, and I quote:

"Research has shown that after the great depression, came the second world war. So shouldnt we reduce defence spending in a time of such depression?"

The befuddled professor Karnad was compelled to reply, "But if history has shown a war came after a depression, and you claim we are in one right now, and by your, ah, Im sorry, questionable reasoning, war should follow inexorably, shouldnt we be INCREASING defence spending???!?"

The so called reporter then turned red, and went into a tailspin of stock phrases.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Aug 2009 16:01

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 854380.cms

Two deaths in IMA in a day

TNN 4 August 2009, 02:19am IST

NAINITAL: The death of two people — one a cadet and the other a physical trainer — in the premises of the Indian Military Academy (IMA) at
Dehradun on Monday has sent shock waves throughout the institution.

The authorities, however, have ruled out any foul play. A 23-year-old cadet-cum-athlete P V Sabu, who was to be commissioned in 2011, died during swimming classes around 7.30am. A non-commissioned officer, Sabu, who cleared special list commission to join the academy was under training with Army Cadets Corps for the last couple of years.

Garhwal range IGP M A Ganpati told TOI that an FIR was lodged by IMA authorities with Gari Cantonment police station in Dehradun. The incident occurred when Sabu, of Wyanad in Kerala, dived into the swimming pool during the final stage of swimming training and did not resurface.

‘‘He had successfully taken six or seven dives before he went for the final one,’’ said a senior Army officer. When he did not come up for more than two minutes, a team of Army divers and lifeguards jumped into the pool and fished out Sabu’s body. The body has been sent for post-mortem. ‘‘We are waiting for the post-mortem report. Moreover, the Army authorities are not sharing any information with us as they keep everything a secret,’’ said a senior IPS officer in Dehradun. Army has ordered its own inquiry.

In the second incident, 37-year-old Army physical trainer and basketball player Havaldar Ram Gude Nagesh died of cardiac arrest at 8.30am. He was rushed to the Army hospital in Dehradun where he died

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Aug 2009 17:50

Viv

Be specific - follow the trail and see to whose rants my answers have been in reply to.

ASP

It would be better if you posted this in one of the police threads - I think no one on this forum disagrees that the they are worse offenders.

Regarding

Army's work is the army's work, and I appreciate what they do, and chose not to criticize how they do it

Unfortunately sometimes that not a good idea. One defends the ARmy when it comes to J&K , NE etc.

But if society feels that the army is following some outmoded habits of our former colonial rulers - it has a right.

Now some maybe fine - eg. regimental breakup and others may not be. Sahayak

But Somnath is right - this is a real trivial matter in the scheme of things but an indication of coming battles.
The Army brass need to anticipate these and decide what to fight. If they fight this - it will be a PR nightmare

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 18:42

In Bombay, Navy occupies the prime Navy Nagar area - again no reason for naval officers to be cloistered in one locality -

Somnath,

Much that you may decry the Army for all it fault and Raj Mentality, the issue is that while the bureaucracy fails, the Army has the Midas touch. Anything that we do is 'prime'. Our Cantonments are also 'prime land'. If appearing organised, neat and clean is a crime, unlike the civil corporation used to chaos, then the defence force are at fault and totally not Indian! They must develop the slum and dirty living attributes to please the majority of Indians!

Thus, the the envy is understandable and since they (the bureaucrats) have the gonads of everyone in their hands, they can squeeze it to shape public opinion and that of the powers that be the politicians.

At one point of time, I was dealing with Field Firing Ranges. The govt was hell bent on denotifying them and they succeeded giving how national interest came first and the Army could do the same elsewhere.

Kollegal, a sandalwood forest was one of them. It was in it pristine form while it was under army control and once that was denotified, this is what happened:

After 12 years of "Operation Veerappan" and 2000 STF men pressed into action, the forest brigand remains elusive as ever. He is far from being sighted, leave alone being captured. His presence is proclaimed loudly only when he has preyed upon his victim. Else he lies low, hidden in the deep recesses of Kollegal forest.

Chambal Vs Kollegal

Politicians and other interested party made big money and Veerappan ran wild which he could not while it was with the army.

I daresay that is national interest!

Take the case of Buxa Duar, which was a field Firing range of the Army. The government complained that we disturbed wild life. It was denotified and today? Poaching is rampant and the tigers and elephants have dwindled!

India sure is doing well!

I appreciate your, Negi's and Suraj's concern to make the army egalitarian and all that, but then everything of the army has a method in the madness and if it give you and your like minded friends great ecstasy to bring the army down by few notches, as the bureaucrats are keen to do, do so.

I hope the Army will still deliver and not be another police force!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 18:53

I would also like to add that the Greening of Kutch and what it is today, is a a part of Gen Joshi's scheme of military's contribution to ecology and so was the saving of the wild assess and bustard (the govt allowed Arab Sheiks to shoot at will) is the Army's contribution.

So, before you decry the army, pause and think and see what we do!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 19:01

But if society feels that the army is following some outmoded habits of our former colonial rulers - it has a right.

What society are you talking about?

The fat cats and the drawing room chatteratti, who don't even pay their taxes honestly?

How many of this chatteratti class in the armed forces? They warm their bottoms on cushioned sofa and sip gin and tonic and they have the audacity to talk of India?

Any grumbles from the rural class?

Spare me your psuedo concern, my friend.

You sham concern is just because you are denied the same facilities!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Aug 2009 19:12

RayC

You need to learn to not take things personally - not every discussion has to have you , me ...

It is a generic statement in an argument.

All you said may be true - society is rotten and the army as part of that society is getting rotten too -
and thats the other side of the political\PR battle.

Regarding rural complaints - Don't give ideas to the civil service guys - I have hinted at how many more variations they can throw up. All they need is one bad example of exploitation of a sahayak and you will be left with a PR nightmare that all the 33999 great relationships cannot cover.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Aug 2009 19:25

Suraj,

I have learned in my service not to take anything personal. If I did, then things would have been different. You will note that I have a huge amount of patience and take things as it comes. I rarely ban or warn since I believe let 100 flowers bloom. Did it when in service and doing it now too!

Nothing personal.

Are you aware how many sahayak continue to be in the service of the officer when they are both retired.

Now, if this was a real bad thing, how does this happen?